Bet I make this a running gagQuote:
Originally Posted by Star|Scream
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Bet I make this a running gagQuote:
Originally Posted by Star|Scream
I'm sure your brief 1-2 hours of testing with a decklist you have little experience playing negates months and years of playtesting I've done with this list.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemnear
Repeal on B2B is one of the very few important plays the 12post deck makes that you can, you know, counter. The other is playing Show and Tell. That's basically it.
12post is a combo deck with a handful of bomb spells that a control deck can counter easily, and B2B owns their manabase. And they don't play any discard or counters themselves, so you fear no disruption. It's a great matchup for MUC.
Brainstorm is a great, great spell, but too often people in Magic, and especially Legacy, turn certain things into "Sacred Cows".Quote:
Originally Posted by .dk
Standstill was another for a long time. People clung to Standstill as the "de facto" draw spell for Control until it long became inefficient in a format full of fast threats and AEther Vials and everyone playing Wasteland. To some, Standstill is still a "sacred cow".
Now, Brainstorm is not a bad spell, but it's not nearly the auto-include in every single blue deck that people make it out to be.
- It's only "good" if you have an uncracked fetchland in play. Period. Otherwise it is a mediocre play. Now, that means your deck needs to play at least 10+ fetchlands to make it worthwhile. In a typical match, your deck will lose 2-3 life, on average, to fetchlands. Against aggro decks, this is alot more meaningful than you would think. Losing life is a serious drawback, especially when you will be losing typically at least 1 life to a Force of Will. Spotting an aggro deck 3 life a game is not something to be scoffed at.
- Costing 1 blue mana is not a lot, but in a control deck, again, you have to keep up with the opposing deck's tempo. Taking 1 blue mana early in the game simply to filter some of your cards can often be enough to set you behind the curve, especially against an aggro or combo deck. This is not to be dismissed lightly. Instead of spending that 1 blue mana to filter cards, I could have been using it to play a counterspell, or suspending a real draw spell such as Ancestral Vision, or playing my bomb (Shackles / B2B) earlier instead of just looking for it.
- Even in the ideal situation: uncracked fetchland, playing it @ EOT with surplus mana... You are trading Brainstorm plus two cards in your hand already for three new cards on the top of your library. These new cards could be just as irrelevant as the cards already in hand that you are willing to trade away. Brainstorm is not a tutor. In a deck withi redundant answers such as MUC, the filtering ability is not nearly as useful as a real tutor would be. There's a reason I play mostly 4-ofs of everything in this deck. Brainstorm is far more useful to a deck with 1-2-of answers, or a combo deck that needs to find exactly the right piece to assemble its combo and win. MUC doesnt' care if it gets Counterspell or Spell Pierce much of the time, or if it gets Back to Basics or Jace against control, or if it gets Keg or Shackles against aggro. Redundancy of answers and threats in the deck lessens the need for filtering spells like Brainstorm.
I used to play Draw Go in Standard about 15 years ago. This deck isn't too far from that mark.
You deck won't be able to compete in Legacy in its current form - that I can tell as much from your decklist.
I recommend watching some games of control decks in action to get a better idea of what to expect in Legacy. Joe Lossett vs Lauren Nolen is a really good match up.
Then again, the 12 post guy can just stare at you and not play anything. Draw go you, putting lands into play, tapping a glimmerpost sometimes to play a candelabra. Then he can just hardcast an emrakul because you actually have no clock. And take a second turn. and wipe your board. With your misdirections still in your hand.Quote:
Originally Posted by MGB
But I am sure YOU can show us all your experience in action by uploading a couple of matches yes? Or better, playing the deck live right? Against actual people?
If your Argument is that you can wait till you Control 5 Lands to Play B2B + counterspell for the eot Repeal I have to remind you that 12-Post can go lethal by that time. Backing up B2B Turn 3 with FoW is possible but 12-posts also run All Is Dust/Oblivion Stone in addition which are castable Even with B2B out. That you ignore these sweepers in your justification gives me a clue against what Kind of misbuild decks you seem to "test" for your overly positive results.Quote:
Originally Posted by MGB
You have done "years of playtesting"? Against which decks? Against real opponents? You try to tell me, you never faced problems or realized the flaws in your theory?
lol
MGB: Good luck beating TinFins or Rogue Hermit 2/3. They're not as a fast as Flash Hulk, but they're usually pretty close. Even in my poor testing, you can get 20% turn 1 kills ON THE PLAY, WITH PROTECTION, and an additional 15% turn1 without.
It has no use pointing him at Combo. He ignores it and claims MUC straight beats Combo. Neither is Delver + Daze + Spell Pierce + Stifle an argument against Shackles working in Time and as intended aside from the Formats common foils Nimble Mongoose (RUG), Geist of Saint Draft (Stoneblade) or Thrun (Nic Fit) beating the hell Out of this Deck aloneQuote:
Originally Posted by Darkenslight
I will not add to the Brainstorm discussion (or the original deck that brought this up in the first place); everything that can be said on the matter has been said, so I see no point.
In the meantime, the UR deck I posted got, sadly, 0 attention, being as it was, trapped in the Brainstorm hurricane (no pun intended). Today I was reading Caleb Durward's article Brewing Control and the same UR list was being mentioned: http://www.channelfireball.com/artic...ewing-control/
For reference, here's the list:
7 Island
2 Mountain
3 Volcanic Island
1 Tropical Island
1 Cavern of Souls
1 Academy Ruins
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Misty Rainforest
2 Snapcaster Mage
2 Trinket Mage
3 Vendilion Clique
2 Blood Moon
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 Brainstorm
3 Spell Snare
2 Spell Pierce
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Counterspell
1 Sudden Shock
4 Force of Will
1 Engineered Explosives
1 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Pithing Needle
2 Vedalken Shackles
//Sideboard
SB: 3 Divert
SB: 2 Ancient Grudge
SB: 1 Grafdigger's Cage
SB: 1 Relic of Progenitus
SB: 1 Blood Moon
SB: 1 Engineered Explosives
SB: 1 Pyroblast
SB: 2 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 1 Blue Elemental Blast
SB: 2 Grim Lavamancer
Any thoughts? Lets make something of the larger flow of people this thread is now seeing due to the Brainstorm "discussion", and actually make something useful of it. This version Top 4d a large vent (384 players), and Japan, while having with a larger than average Rogue deck % of the metagame, does host a respectable Legacy scene.
Maybe you want to start your own thread. Posting a UR Deck in the Mono-Blue-Control section is misleading
Brainstorm is restricted in Vintage. Standstill is not.Quote:
Originally Posted by MGB
I don't even think MUC should be in the established decks forum anymore. There are absolutely zero results getting posted with a genuinely MUC deck. I really don't understand all the discussion. You're all just pissing into the wind.
We've discussed slight splashes before. I had considered starting my own thread, but I do not have enough experience with the deck to write anything close to a primer. But I guess I'll just do it anyway, and add information when I get some games with the deck.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemnear
I agree.Quote:
Originally Posted by igri_is_a_bk
I tend to agree.
MUC pretty much lacks ANY working deck core atm. We have seen a wild rotation of FoF, Visions and Standstills as draw engines; Crucible-Mishra-Wasteland or B2B for mana control attempts; Bounce, Shackles and control-magicas like Sower of Temptation and a multitude of Finishers from Jace to Morphling to Consecrated Sphinx.
Nothing really worked, mainly because of the pressence of powecreep among creatures and blue's natural weakness to those.
A "Deck" without Core, concept or results has nothing left in the Established Forum
Corrected for you XDQuote:
Originally Posted by Lemnear
Direction fights in a thread are nothing unusual, especially when a deck stops performing. MUC will stay in this forum indefinitely like UG Madness or Rifter. If it stays bad like them, eventually people will lose interest in it and the thread will disappear on the back pages.
For MUC itself I agree. I do not see any way to make it competitive. There is no concept simply because the cards aren't good enough anymore. It got power creeped and THEN Abrupt Decay got printed to make things even worse.
Damn! Got me X(Quote:
Originally Posted by kingtk3
I think the combination of "Can't Counter" cards have really turned the strategy of draw-go in Legacy to be very bad. You must be proactive in some way. You can't just sit and wait for something to happen. Hell, even Miracle Control is proactive, be it Entreat or StoneForge Mystic or RiP/Helm combo. Decks that want to durdle around need a combination of counters and removal. Using only counters to stop everything isn't a solution anymore.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tao
I've played this deck for 3+ years online and offline, and in local tournaments. It is definitely competitive in this format, and specifically in this metagame.Quote:
Originally Posted by Koby
Did Draw go in Standard 15 years ago have Jace? The combination of Back to Basics and Vedalken Shackles? A draw-3 draw spell in Ancestral Vision? Access to the best Counterspell and Force of Will?
To compare a Legacy deck that plays some of the best spells in the format to a Standard deck from 15 years ago is patently ridiculous. This decklist is not even much different from UW control lists except that it doesnt' splash white, and it plays artifact removal like Keg instead of targeted removal like StP.