Caldera Hellion? Are you serious? What matchup do you want that against, even?
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Caldera Hellion? Are you serious? What matchup do you want that against, even?
I can see it being useful against all sorts of Tribal, Zoo, Belcher/TES (if they absolutely have to go for EtW) and... that's it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ozymandias
-4 Careful Study = -4 draw spells AND -4 discarding spells. Is that the right choice?
Also, do you keep the 2 DR without target? To make tokens? Not for Troll, I guess.
Thanls
Dread Return Troll is a fine play. Absolutely leave them in.
I would not cut 4 Careful Study in any matchup because they dig for SB hate.
That's my point. Of course not for Grudge, but for chain or firestorm.Quote:
Originally Posted by Anusien
My list and Sideboard I'm testing right now:
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
3 Golgari Thug
4 Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba
4 Putrid Imp
3 Tireless Tribe
4 Breakthrough
4 Careful Study
4 Bridge from Below
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Dread Return
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 Terastodon
4 Cephalid Coliseum
4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
2 Tarnished Citadel
Sideboard:
4 Erase
4 Firestorm
4 Ancient Grudge
2 Nature's Claim
1 Ancestor's Chosen
I'm trying Erase because Chain of Vapor may answer Leyline of the Void but not Planar Void. Any negative points on the choise?
I'm still considering 4 Nature's Claim because you can close your eyes sidding 4 of them in. They answers all our main problems.
I find Careful Study a weak discard outlet and a weak draw spell. I view it as the wekest card in the deck, so it follows that it's the one I boad out.Quote:
Originally Posted by Anusien
Perhaps I should rethink my boarding plans though, and side out DR targets and something else for 4 cards coming in.
I think that in a big tourny or unknown meta it can be very usefull to have a hellion in your sideboard. is Crater Hellion better? a 3/3beater make's little difference in a deck like this and blowing for 4 just might kill some moreQuote:
Originally Posted by Digital Devil
Caldera Hellion eats your Zombies and leaves you with a creature. Crater Hellion just dies.Quote:
Originally Posted by Malloot
Also, what does the difference between 3 and for 4 do? It kills RWM, I suppose - which you can block when your Hellion eats at least 1 token.
I have difficulty sideboarding sometimes too. I always want to keep Careful Study in to dig for hate but I'm never certain on what else to take out. I REALLY want to leave Breakthrough in, as it's the best card to have after you've cleared the way of hate.Quote:
Originally Posted by kicks_422
Usually what I'll do if I'm bringing in 4-6 pieces of hate is take out -1 Dread Return, -2/3 Careful Study, -1 Darkblast, and -1 Tribe. My maindeck is McCall's list.
To those of you who play maindeck DR targets: how often do you just side them out games 2 and 3? Terastodon (or Woodfall Primus) is the only maindeck target I'd even consider running, and it's not useful in most matchups.
At least they make it easier to sideboard, I guess?
I maindeck 1 Terastodon, and I would never take it out. There's a ton of Jace/Foundry decks in my meta, and they all have one of silver bullets starting in G1 like Moat, Academy Ruins with EE and Crypt, and other irritating things that they can just tutor for; as they're just one-ofs, Therapy doesn't always get me there in time. I agree with the idea that we really don't want a ton of MD Dread targets, but the one doesn't hurt me that badly; it's not enough to dilute the deck since it actually has uses, and it does win the game for you most times you Return it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Exospaciac
Also, Leyline of Anticipation is basically the stone nuts. I would play 12 if I could. Being able to go off at instant speed in the face of hate has been huge for me. Last night, that card was single-handedly responsible for me just winning the game through Ruins/Crypt, thanks to being able to set up a turn where I Therapied during the draw step after he used Ruins and went off with 2xBreakthrough on his end step. Same thing happened against a KOTR fetching Bog; response, make a bunch of zombies and 2 huge trolls, kill you.
In these situations where you're going off with end of turn Breakthroughs and in response to Bojuka Bog, make some Trolls: why didn't you just do all that stuff on your main phase?
Leylines would be awesome if you could play 12 of them in a deck.Quote:
Originally Posted by MrSoze
I'm assuming because if he did it during his main phase, he would walk right into all that hate? Knight tutors for bog at instant speed, countering the whole troll making process. And I think Breakthrough in response to Breakthrough is pretty sweet considering it's normally sorcery speed.Quote:
Originally Posted by Anusien
That's why I really think Leyline has some serious potential. It turns dead/supbar spells when facing hate into a way to fight hate. I haven't tested it yet, but the possibilities are endless. Another good one I realized today: as long as you have a Therapy in your grave your Ichorids are "immune" to Swords to Plowshares. That might seem not that great, but anyone who has played this deck has had and Ichorid removed from the game on their draw step after flipping a couple of Bridges from Below off a dredge.Quote:
Originally Posted by Heroix
Keeping pointing out how Leyline isn't good when you don't draw it is just pointless.
That's why I really think Leyline has some serious potential. It turns dead/supbar spells when facing hate into a way to fight hate. I haven't tested it yet, but the possibilities are endless. Another good one I realized today: as long as you have a Therapy in your grave your Ichorids are "immune" to Swords to Plowshares. That might seem not that great, but anyone who has played this deck has had and Ichorid removed from the game on their draw step after flipping a couple of Bridges from Below off a dredge.Quote:
Originally Posted by Heroix
Keeping pointing out how Leyline isn't good when you don't draw it is just pointless.
Are you saying that you dropped all your grave-hate-hate cards (e.g. Ancient Grudge, etc) and just went with Leyline out of the board for Games 2 and 3?
Not necessarily; I've been boarding Nature's Claim/Chain of Vapor, but I really like the fact that if you have leyline and you play carefully, the only card that can beat you is Leyline of the Void or a resolved Wheel of Sun and Moon, and you can still bring in board hate for those. I've just been trying out different things to see if any matches just get instantly better with things like leyline, and a lot of them just have. Not just being able to go off in the face of hate, but being able to bait counters eot, have a way to toss Ichorids if they have Path/Swords (another poster pointed this out), all of these things make the deck just play differently at instant speed. You can set up great combat tricks with bridges against decks like zoo if your life gets too low; in short, you can outplay your opponent on a different axis when Leyline is in play, and a lot of people don't seem, at least in my testing, to be prepared to face that axis. I've won a lot of games due to opponent error because of their thought process being that they 'know' how to play the dredge matchup, but Leyline changes the rules.Quote:
Originally Posted by kicks_422
Yes, I see the merit of Leyline once it's in play. However, for the instances when you don't open the game with it in play... What then? If you still boarded in additional cards to supplement the Leylines (e.g. 4 Chain of Vapor), haven't you diluted the deck too much? Just wondering.
So I've been noodling around this thread and the LED-based lists for some time trying to figure out what exactly to play for GP Columbus, and this is what I'm working with right now:
Beatz and Dredgez
3 Ichorid
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Narcomoeba
4 Putrid Imp
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Bloodghast
2 Golgari Thug
1 FKZ
1 Eternal Witness
Other Stuffz
4 Breakthrough
4 Bridge from Below
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Careful Study
3 Dread Return
Landz
4 Undiscovered Paradise
4 Cephalid Coliseum
4 City of Brass
1 Gemstone Mine
2 Dakmor Salvages
The first thing everyone will probably point out is the 4 Bloodghast hanging around there. I just want to say that after playtesting for a few initial hours with this build, the Bloodghast/U-Paradise combo is VERY GOOD, especially against Bant/anything with blue obviously. That being said, I should also point out that because of the neverending Bloodghast beats, this version definitely thinks in more aggro terms than of the combo. Most games I've played so far I've just held back my combo pieces and let my creatures do the talking. If things start going downhill, I just go "well, oops I guess I'll win then."
Another "eh" point is the Eternal Witness in there. I used to have Iona in its place but I figured Iona is best in games 2/3 after you know what your opponent's playing, while Witness adds some flexibility if game 1 goes late
I'm having the hardest time figuring out how to SB for the GP, but that's why I come here!
So, lemme know what you guys think, especially about whether Bloodghast/Undiscovered Paradise merits spots in an aggro-focused version of this awesome deck
In a meta, where not much GY hate will be played, would you say that playing 4 StP in the SB to fight off Grunts and Jailers (we will be like 10 people and 1 of us always brings 4 Jailers, just because he doesn't seem to have something else for his SB::: *_*), is a rational decision? I doubt he'll be playing at the lower tables, because his deck works like a greased gear.
Other expected hate is the basic stuff, Relics, Crypts, Leylines, yadda, yadda. I already play 3 Chain of Vapor and 4 Nature's Claim in my SB, so I have the slots.