[Archetype] CounterTop

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by hofzge

What do you guys think about GerryTs recent build of RUG CounterTop with Grove of the Burnwillows and Punishing Fires?

//NAME: RUG Countertop
4 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Grim Lavamancer
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Counterbalance
4 Brainstorm
1 Counterspell
2 Dismember
3 Force of Will
3 Punishing Fire
3 Spell Snare
2 Vendilion Clique
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Island
1 Mountain
1 Cascade Bluffs
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
3 Misty Rainforest
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Tropical Island
1 Underground Sea
3 Volcanic Island
2 Wooded Foothills
//Sideboard
SB: 3 Nihil Spellbomb
SB: 2 Flusterstorm
SB: 1 Force of Will
SB: 2 Krosan Grip
SB: 1 Lightning Bolt
SB: 4 Pyroblast
SB: 2 Thrun, the Last Troll

The Deck has lots of late-game power against all the Snapcaster Tempo RUG or BUG decks with Punishing Fires and also Grim Lavamancer.

After a few games I have changed some sideboard cards to better deal with Knight of the Reliquary (e.g. -2 Thrun, the Last Troll, -1 Pyroblast, -1 Lightning Bolt, +2 Submerge, +2 Mind Harness), as Bant and Maverick are quite a force here in Europe.

Does anyone have better options than Submerge against Knight of the Reliquary (optimally something that has a CMC of 3...).

---

Grove of the Burnwillows combo seems too slowf or this deck.. also it takes up lots of mana, which I don't like in a deck that runs CBT. The mana should all go to CBT. If I have to bring stuff back just to kill some weenies, I'm not going to be happy. Grim lavamancer just seems enough.

But GerryT's style is very different from mine. He's quite aggressive with CBT decks, and don't rely on the lock as much as I do. He relies on goyf more than anything.. LOL. I think that's why Thrun is in the board.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by hofzge

What do you guys think about GerryTs recent build of RUG CounterTop with Grove of the Burnwillows and Punishing Fires?

//NAME: RUG Countertop
4 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Grim Lavamancer
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Counterbalance
4 Brainstorm
1 Counterspell
2 Dismember
3 Force of Will
3 Punishing Fire
3 Spell Snare
2 Vendilion Clique
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Island
1 Mountain
1 Cascade Bluffs
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
3 Misty Rainforest
4 Scalding Tarn
3 Tropical Island
1 Underground Sea
3 Volcanic Island
2 Wooded Foothills
//Sideboard
SB: 3 Nihil Spellbomb
SB: 2 Flusterstorm
SB: 1 Force of Will
SB: 2 Krosan Grip
SB: 1 Lightning Bolt
SB: 4 Pyroblast
SB: 2 Thrun, the Last Troll

The Deck has lots of late-game power against all the Snapcaster Tempo RUG or BUG decks with Punishing Fires and also Grim Lavamancer.

After a few games I have changed some sideboard cards to better deal with Knight of the Reliquary (e.g. -2 Thrun, the Last Troll, -1 Pyroblast, -1 Lightning Bolt, +2 Submerge, +2 Mind Harness), as Bant and Maverick are quite a force here in Europe.

Does anyone have better options than Submerge against Knight of the Reliquary (optimally something that has a CMC of 3...).

---

Glad you asked this. I am running a similar build, except I have a 2nd Sea maindeck for my 3 Perish in the SB. Perish is so beast and ravages Knight, Goyf, and opposing Thruns. It murders Bant, Maverick, big Zoo, and Progenitus.

Seems great! And also has CMC 3... perfect
This would look something like this:

RUG Countertop

4 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Grim Lavamancer
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Counterbalance
4 Brainstorm
1 Counterspell
2 Dismember
4 Force of Will
3 Punishing Fire
3 Spell Snare
2 Vendilion Clique
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Island
1 Mountain
1 Cascade Bluffs
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
2 Misty Rainforest
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Flooded Strand
3 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
3 Volcanic Island
SB: 3 Surgical Extraction
SB: 2 Flusterstorm
SB: 1 Ancient Grudge
SB: 2 Krosan Grip
SB: 3 Perish
SB: 2 Pyroblast
SB: 2 Red Elemental Blast


I cut one land and added Force of Will maindeck, which is very debateable (Could also be e.g. Counterspell -> CMC2). Other that that I played around with the grave hate, as i don't like Nihil Spellbomb that much.

One of the bigger problems that this build has, is that it only runs 7 Fetchlands.

Your list looks like a big improvement on what Gerry was running.

Here is what I am testing. It abuses Legacy's best sweepers, Firespout and Perish, while increasing the 3 drop count from Gerry's list. And for all you nonbelievers out there, Punishing Fire is the real deal... I don't really know what else to say about it. I don't care if it costs a lot of mana to completely destroy your opponent's board with a single card. It makes questionable matchups (like Fish) quite favorable; I would love nothing more than to sit across from a Fish player round 1.

4 Brainstorm
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Counterbalance

3 Spell Snare
1 Counterspell
4 Force of Will

3 Punishing Fire
2 Dismember
2 Firespout

4 Tarmogoyf
2 Vendilion Clique
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor

2 Island
3 Volcanic Island
3 Tropical Island
2 Underground Sea
1 Flooded Grove
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
3 Polluted Delta
3 Misty Rainforest
2 Scalding Tarn

SB
4 Pyroblast
3 Perish
1 Firespout
2 Krosan Grip
1 Darkblast
1 Punishing Fire
3 Nihil Spellbomb

Gerry said in an article that he didn't like his Lavamancers, and I agree. They are amazing on paper but die to all the Bolts and StP's being Snapcastered back and forth right now. Firespout is really strong, and I like 6 3 drops main, as those are some of our problem spells. I am running 1 Thrun maindeck to steal some game 1's against UW and the Countertop mirror. It's good against a variety of decks right now, and it's a cute way to kill opposing Thruns too. This could change, but I like it for now.

SB
Darkblast is sick - another great way to utilize the black splash. Mother, Hierarch, Goblins, Dark Confidant, and Snappy all don't want to play against Darkblast. You might be right about Spellbomb, but I will just test it and see... I like harder GY hate against Dredge, and I am not worried about combo with this deck.

4 snapcaster mage
2 vendillion clique
4 sensei's divining top
4 counterbalance
4 brainstorm
1 predict
4 swords of plowshares
2 vedalken shackles
4 spell snare
2 counterspell
4 force of will
4 jace, the mindsculptor

4 mishra's factory
4 tundra
4 misty rainforest
4 flooded strand
5 island

Honestly Nassif's list from 2009 seems amazingly well-positioned right now.

2 Snapcaster Mage
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Vendilion Clique

4 Brainstorm
2 Engineered Explosives
4 Force of Will
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
3 Lightning Bolt
2 Preordain
4 Punishing Fire
2 Spell Pierce
3 Spell Snare
3 Stifle

1 Flooded Strand
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
1 Island
1 Misty Rainforest
2 Polluted Delta
2 Scalding Tarn
2 Tropical Island
1 Underground Sea
4 Volcanic Island
3 Wasteland

1 Ancient Grudge
1 Firespout
2 Flusterstorm
1 Nihil Spellbomb
3 Perish
2 Pyroblast
1 Red Elemental Blast
3 Surgical Extraction
1 Underground Sea

I know this deck doesn't play CB, but how good is CB in the meta game right now? This deck is pretty similar to most of the decks that are seeming to be very well positioned right now. I think that the only question is if it would be better to play CB or run more non-CB control cards. Cutting the stifles seems pretty logical as this is technically NTL, but that deck really just seems like a worse Tempo Thresh.

With Punishing Fire being able to beat a lot of decks in the meta single-handily means that we need to look at the rest of the decks that we need to beat and decide if the majority of them are weak to CB. Don't forget that CB can be boarded in if that would be better because having MB tops is never a bad thing especially in a deck like this.

To me it seems like the decks that lose to Fires are Non-Green Blade decks(UW and BW), BUG if you can kill goyf, Merfolk, and Tempo Rug gets murdered by this card.
Decks that don't lose to Fire is Bant, Maverick, Zoo, and the combo decks(reanimator, S&T, Dredge, and Storm mostly), depending on how popular they are in your meta. How good is CB at beating all of these decks as a whole?

P.S. KOTR decks seem to be like the hardest thing for this deck to beat which makes Perish look soooo good. Sorry for any grammer/ English mistakes.

What are your chances if you try to run a mono blue counter top deck. Something like this.

Deck List
4 x Sensei's Divining Top
2 x Umezawa's Jitte
2 x Vedalken Shackles

4 x Brainstorm
4 x Counterbalance
2 x Counterspell
2 x Daze
4 x Force of Will
2 x Spell Snare
3 x Stifle

3 x Snapcaster Mage
3 x Delver of Secrets
2 x Vendilion Clique

3 x Jace, the Mind Sculptor

15 x Island
4 x Mutavault
2 x Riptide Laboratory

Sideboard
2 x Ratchet Bomb
2 x Dismember
3 x Surgical Extraction
2 x Echoing Truth
2 x Energy Flux
2 x Llawan, Cephalid Empress
2 x Propaganda

Anyway I just thought that I would put it out there, as I want to go without the RUG tech that I see enough of already.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Malakai

Honestly Nassif's list from 2009 seems amazingly well-positioned right now.

---

Doesn't it though?

@mono blue list: Although the idea is admirable, you don't run any fetches, defeating a lot of the purpose of CBTop.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by bowvamp

@mono blue list: Although the idea is admirable, you don't run any fetches, defeating a lot of the purpose of CBTop.

---

Well I do have plenty of Fetchlands available to me so I could easily throw in +6 fetchlands - 6 Islands; but that also would open me up to Stifle users which I do see in my meta.

Thanks for the input as it is certainly something to try out.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SupREME-10

Well I do have plenty of Fetchlands available to me so I could easily throw in +6 fetchlands - 6 Islands; but that also would open me up to Stifle users which I do see in my meta.

Thanks for the input as it is certainly something to try out.

---

How do you hope to maximize Countertop's (and Brainstorm) dig ability without fetchlands? This is the ground floor of the archetype. Stifle isn't an argument at all in comparison to the times you would fail to find the right cmc because of not being able to shuffle the deck.
Also, monoblue doesn't go anywhere. Add white, at least.

Thanks as I can easily splash white to add the StoP package.

Something like this maybe.
Deck List
4 x Sensei's Divining Top
2 x Vedalken Shackles

4 x Brainstorm
4 x Counterbalance
2 x Counterspell
4 x Swords to Plowshares
4 x Force of Will
3 x Spell Snare

3 x Snapcaster Mage
3 x Delver of Secrets
2 x Vendilion Clique

3 x Jace, the Mind Sculptor

5 x Island
2 x Flooded Strand
2 x Misty Rainforest
2 x Sculding Tarns
4 x Tundra
4 x Mishra's Factory
2 x Riptide Laboratory

Then I could ship things like the Jitte and the stifles to the SB. I actually like where your helping me take the list so thanks a lot.

How you intend to deal with Thrun? This issue should be taken in consideration when building a control deck these days as he's at least a 1of in every g/w maverick deck, which is still fairly popular.
Why do you run only 9 CC2 cards? I mean, having at least 12 CC2 cards for your CB curve has become even more important since the print of Snapcaster. Keep in mind that you want CB to hit at random sometimes so you definitely need a solid cc curve. I feel 18(!) CC1 cards being way too much, especially since Delver of Secrets contributes nothing to your actual game plan. I see, he's the new novel of Legacy, but decks which get to use Delver mainly aim to end the game as quickly as possible, while this isn't CB's goal at all. I'd recommend to cut these and add 3 CC2 cards. Just add 2 additional Counterspells and 1 Phantasmal Image, which is great at dealing with Thrun and other Legends like Progenitus, Emrakul, Gaddock Teeg, Edric Clique etc. Furthermore, I feel that you need more cards which get done with a horde of creatures, as I consider swarm aggro to be the most diffult matchup. Wrath of god does great at that and also represents a solution to Thrun. I've been tweaking my U/w Cb list for a few weaks now and this is what I'd come up with right now:
edit: and run at least 8 fetchlands...

// Lands
1 [OD] Plains (1)
4 [B] Tundra
4 [ON] Flooded Strand
4 [ZEN] Scalding Tarn
9 [CHK] Island (3)

// Creatures
3 [ISD] Snapcaster Mage
1 [M12] Phantasmal Image
3 [MOR] Vendilion Clique

// Spells
1 [10E] Wrath of God
3 [WWK] Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4 [CS] Counterbalance
1 [CFX] Path to Exile
4 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
4 [AL] Force of Will
4 [IA] Brainstorm
4 [FNM] Swords to Plowshares
4 [IA] Counterspell
1 [M12] Oblivion Ring
1 [FD] Vedalken Shackles

// Sideboard
SB: 1 [10E] Wrath of God
SB: 1 [M12] Oblivion Ring
SB: 3 [ZEN] Spell Pierce
SB: 1 [US] Arcane Laboratory
SB: 2 [ALA] Ethersworn Canonist
SB: 3 [ALA] Relic of Progenitus
SB: 2 [IA] Disenchant
SB: 2 [NPH] Surgical Extraction

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by SupREME-10

What are your chances if you try to run a mono blue counter top deck. Something like this.


4 x Sensei's Divining Top
4 x Brainstorm
3 x Jace, the Mind Sculptor

15 x Island
4 x Mutavault
2 x Riptide Laboratory

---

The top 3 cards are infi better if you run fetchlands. And you run 0. Just sayin.

OK I reworked the list; I am still very open to suggestions but please let me know if I am at least headed in the right direction.

OK I am trying to work this out a bit so bear with me.

Land == 20
2 x Flooded Strand -- fetch to manipulate
2 x Misty Rainforest -- fetch to manipulate
2 x Scalding Tarn -- fetch to manipulate
4 x Island -- basic
4 x Tundra -- spalsh
4 x Mutavault -- creature and a faerie
2 x Riptide Laboratory -- utility land

1 Drops == 15
4 x Sensei's Divining Top -- key component to manipulate Library
4 x Brainstorm -- hand and library manipulation + card draw
3 x Spell Snare -- stop those 2 drops
4 x Swords to Plowshares -- exile opponent fatties that land.

2 Drops == 15 -- trying for about 12-14 (suggestions welcome)
2 x Umezawa's Jitte -- versatile equipment
4 x Counterbalance -- key component to achieve lockdown
2 x Counterspell -- for when a hard counter
2 x Daze -- soft counter for early game
3 x Snapcaster Mage -- instant recursion for graveyard cards
2 x Spellstutter Sprite -- creature that helps counterspells

3 Drops == 4 -- trying for about 6-8 (suggestions welcome)
2 x Vedalken Shackles -- use the opponents fatties
2 x Vendilion Clique -- control with punch

4 Drops == 3 -- trying for about 3-4 (suggestions welcome)
3 x Jace, the Mind Sculptor -- fateseal

5 Drops == 4
4 x Force of Will -- counterspells without mana if needed

Sideboard
2 x Wrath of God
3 x Surgical Extraction
2 x Ratchet Bomb
2 x Llawan, Cephalid Empress
4 x Stifle
2 x Disenchant

Plenty of work to do still; but I think that this breakdown is actually helping me work through the list more and more. Suggestions, ideas and even general comments are always welcome.

Cheers

In actual practice Mutavault is going to be abysmal compared to Mishra's Factory.

I don't see a reason to not run a basic plains.

I don't understand any of the sideboard choices. Shackles is already a better Wrath, and you won't be able to resolve Wrath in time against Goblins or Merfolk, if you can ever resolve it.

Surgical Extraction...why? You already have the tools to beat Life from the Loam decks, Extraction is insufficient against dredge, and Reanimator is already extremely favorable.

I have no idea what Stifle is for, as you don't have enough pressure to take advantage of it as a land destruction spell. If it's for combo, then Flusterstorm is strictly better. But you're CounterTop--you don't board cards for combo unless those cards are intended for control matchups (i.e. they are incidentally good vs. combo).

Ratchet Bomb? EE seems like it would always be superior.

Llawan is fine, but your actual plan against fish is to beat them with Jitte, so more cards that get you to that point would fit better. Path to Exile would work, and also be useful against Goblins, Zoo. This also fits into the Shackles plan you have going. As the person who has probably played Countertop with Shackles more than anyone, I cannot recommend trying this route enough.

Also, and this probably goes for every version: Counterbalance comes out against Merfolk and Goblins.

OK, since the focus of the reply was toward the SB I worked on that first, and I am working with cards I own so no EE (Sorry).

Anyway, here is a revised Sideboard
* 2 x Ratchet Bomb
* 2 x Relic of Progenitus
* 2 x Tormod's Crypt
* 1 x Flusterstorm
* 2 x Llawan, Cephalid Empress
* 2 x Spell Pierce
* 2 x Disenchant
* 2 x Path to Exile

PS, I like Mutavaults to work with the Sprites for more Faeries but I have mishra's too.

And thanks so far, how does the curve up top look now, etc ?

I don't really think it's worthwhile to discuss sub-optimal options in a deck that runs around $1000 USD, especially if the optimal one isn't in the Grim Tutor / Moat / Tabernacle price range.