It's mainly for combo matchups. It's a fast clock and that + counter backup is enought for most games. You can side it in against miracles also and mirror, just watchout for opponents "ambush vipers".Quote:
Originally Posted by TheArchitect
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It's mainly for combo matchups. It's a fast clock and that + counter backup is enought for most games. You can side it in against miracles also and mirror, just watchout for opponents "ambush vipers".Quote:
Originally Posted by TheArchitect
I boarded him in against combo (to be specific: Storm) and everyone told me that that's a really bad idea and I agree with them after testing. You just never want to tap out on turn 3 because then they just kill you (I guess show and tell is the same). With Stoneforge Mystic you can play him on turn 3 with spell pierce mana open and on turn 4 end of turn bring batterskull into play if you don't have to counter something, the clock is about the same (6 dmg from geist vs 5 dmg and 4 life with mystic + batterskull). However I play UW so maybe with discard it's different?
I think Geist is only good for control mirrors (Stone Blade, Miracle) and some decks that don't play creatures but don't kill you early, I really like it vs Pox for example.
Thanks that makes sense. I could see him being really good in a meta dense with other stoneblade decks, miracles or creature-light decks like BUG still.
I see the argument of bringing him for combo; increasing the clock and just out tempoing them. But I think Id rather just have SFM>Batterskull. It's 1 mana less so you keep mana open if needed and against TES it completely negates the empty plan which they often have to turn to when they are put under pressure.
Ofcourse it's different with the black splash, it's the discard that allows you to tap out on turn 3. The problem is, stoneforge alone isn't enough. We need more opportunities to create a clock against combo because otherwise they just outdraw us and we meet their inevitability. If geist was purely against combo, extra vendilion cliques would be a much better option.Quote:
Originally Posted by kirdie
I guess most people don't really know what geist's purpose is in our sideboards, and i didn't know it either. Geist is NOT exclusively against miracles and other control mirrors. It also comes in against shardless BUG and Jund. Why? because it has hexproof and you want to end the game quickly against those decks because they'll eventually end up outgrinding you with cards as punishing fire or ancestral visions.
It comes in against any deck where stoneblade wants to play prooactively. Oddly enough against decks like shardless BUG and jund you want to be proactive. Their discard forces you to outclass their board presence to win and their card advantage engines force you to close the game in time. Geist is ideal for this as it's a threat they can't deal with (except with liliana), gives you an exceptional clock and is a perfect carrier for equipment. Besides, geist kill splaneswalkers like a boss.
I see this is a recurring question. Geist really is the most versatile card in our sideboard. I've tried to ply without them some time but geist is a game winning card and can carry some wins on its own. He's our offensive mode button.
Then again, why do people keep comparing apples to oranges? Because esperblade and straight u/w blade are decks that look the same, but actually play in different ways. In the u/w version, of course you never want to be tapped out during their turn, as your whole deck is based on responding in a reactive way. Each time you are tapped out during their turn, you effectively are turning most of your options down, and inviting them to just kill you. However, Esperblade relies on proactive discard, rather then active counters. As such, this allows you to tap out during their turn, because your disruption is done during your turn, and not during their turn. You make sure they can't kill you on turn 3, then play the geist, and then kill them quickly, before they can do anything to you. As such, this is why you can play him in esper against combo, and not in u/wQuote:
Originally Posted by kirdie
The general feeling I get from this forum is that I'm the only one who actually gets to play against good opponents.
A storm player who can't beat a discard spell or two might as well not show up to the tournament. Non-blue, black decks have known this for years. Your disruption strategy loses to brainstorm.
Liliana may not be scary for esper, but I don't feel this is a strong enough case to play the deck when a well constructed UWr list is better against the rest of the field.
Geist isn't going to save you against punishing fire, but wasteland will.
Ask yourself if you would rather have sword of feast and famine or Geist against combo.
Geist is there not for the combo but for the control matchups. It is great vs. Miracles and is one of the better answers to opposing Geists in the mirror. (If people were not running Geist in Stoneblade boards, I would probably not bother with it myself.)
Of course, once you have them in the board, you will bring them in vs. Combo too (usually in exchange for Souls), but that's not why they are there. As someone already mentioned, there are other decks where you will board them – at the GP I won a game vs. Burn due to Geist giving him fewer topdecks.
I am aware of the text on brainstorm. I am also aware that you don't always have one in hand, especially against decks with hymn.Quote:
Originally Posted by jin
You are the one suggesting single card answers, which is not surprising considering you play e tutor. Your reliance on silver bullets is symptomatic of your poor conceptualization of the game. You think that games are played with cards, but in reality they are played with decks.
I have since solved the land destruction problem without weakening the integrity of my deck simply by making several small changes that have an effect greater than the sum of their parts.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Malakai
Do you think you can try to be more condescending? For science?Quote:
Originally Posted by Malakai
Shizo, Death's Storehouse is a nice 1-off for esper lists that run Geist of Saint Traft. Just thought I'd mention that here.
The general feeling i get from you is that you think you know everything. Your tone is very condescending and unpleasant.Quote:
Originally Posted by Malakai
-Sure storm draws themselves out of discard but we just use it to win a turn. You take a crucial card and you'll have a big cance to drop geist on turn 3. And if they cast brainstorm in response, well then you don't cast geist on turn 3 ofcourse. Sometimes they'll topdeck well or brainstorm into the win but that's combo, when they draw well you can't win anyway. And against ANT, if you can't beat em fast enough they'll inevitably kill you and draw out of your whole disruption.
-UWr, better against the field? That's yet to be proven. Post some results and then we'll talk. You can't just pretend uwr is better against the field without an argument to back it up.
-Geist doesn't? to my knowledge it does, without weakening my manabase. They can't hit your geist, if you use your removal to let geist connect, the game is ended rapidly. without geist you often have no decent way of ending the game in time. You can only play 2 wasteland, beyond that your manabase becomes horrid.
-I have both, Sword of feast and famine alone isn't enough. Having just 4 stoneforge mystics against combo isn't enough by far. To beat some combo decks like ant you want to consistently open hands with a clock and disruption. Having 3 extra ways to create a clock makes this a lot easier.
I'm not saying geist is an uber powerful card that everyone should play. I'm just saying that geist is much more effective and versatile than people give it credit for. And he's a good card to have in the sideboard.
I understand the reasoning behind geist in the sense that you want to disrupt your opponent and finish the game in that bought window of time. I just rather continue to draw good spells and win eventually rather than cross my fingers I draw the good half of my deck in 2/3 games. I have NEVER lost in the mirror when my opponent resolved swords to plowshares or geist of lava axe postboard. The funny thing is, nobody realizes this as people contiune to cripple themselves in the espermirror with cards like supreme verdict, swords to plowshares and geist of saint traft. Even fow and discard are kind of bad.
and vs combo...what would you rather play, meddling mage or geist of saint traft?
I play with 2 vendilion md in esper and as I dont play geist sb, I have 4snap 4stoneforge 2 v clique to deal with combo with additional discard/flusterstorm SB.(3pierce MD).
I never had any problems beating combo obviously,but that doesn't mean Geist is bad. If you're running Geist sb and 1or 0 cliques MD obviously u would board in Geist instead of dead cards.
Dont see where this discussion is going.. Everyone knows clique is better vs. combo then geist,but if you're running geist its totally reasonable to board them in,just depends on ur build.
My point of view is that I dont need Geist at all in the other grindy MU's and thus have way more tools against combo..
Then again, you're the only one on this forum that I actually stopped caring about for a while. Probably not gonna help anyone anyways with what you say. Until now, I am yet to be disapointed by my choice!!!Quote:
Originally Posted by Malakai
I think the best part is when you actually try to have advices, but can't even tell us what you play, lol.
Define good spells against combo game 2-3. We have what? 10 dead cards against combo (I asume you will keep some creature removal, in case bob or swarm makes an apparition)? I have what? 10 cards that are actually good against combo (storm) in the side? Then , the question is more like " do i really want to beat him down with a batterskull ?", question to which I actually say no. Too slow, is the conclusion I ended up having about that card in that matchup. Enters Geist, who casually happens to have 2 slots in my sideboard. The way I see it, I am changing a clock for another one, and this is what i think people don't realise. He is NOT taking the place of my actual combo hate, He takes the place of my actual clock, because I think I prefer having him instead of having a batterskull when I will have to beat down the guy fast, and use stoneforge as a way to find that sword of feast and famine every time. I could be doing it wrong, but I do really have batterskull in general as my clock of choice in those matchups.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mackan
Now what would I prefer between geist or meddling mage you asked? How about both? My whole 3 copies of meddling mage AND my 2 copies of geist. Because I believe the real question is : what would you rather play against combo, batterskull or geist of saint traft?
Then, in the mirror, keeping FoW and verdict in a control mirror seems loose, no matter how you sell it, and I don't know why people would actually do it. Discard being bad is also wrong i believe, especially if you know how to time them. I believe that geist shoud be seen as a hard to deal with win condition in the mirror. Not a card to actually lean on (read, not a card to go allin on).
Quote:
Originally Posted by ThediscoPower
Even if geist IS better than stoneforge (he isn't because he costs 3) I would not waste sideboard space for a minor upgrade of my clock in a few matchups.
Also Batterskull is good because;
1) combo often have discard for SOFF (squiring mystics)
2) Batterskull nullifies many of the ETW-openers from storm and forces higher stormcounts.
3) Compared to geist you can sequence t3 sfm with pierce up and then put it down EOT t4 (where you actually live). a total of 4 mana, but only 2 where it counts. I think good comboplayers appreciate you tapout turn3.
If you clock your opponent (even when life doesn't matter) with batterskull it's only one turn slower than geist.
geist: t4, 6, t5, 6 t6, 6 = 18
sfm: t4, 5, t5 5, t6, 5, t7, 5 = 20
This is assuming your opponent pains himself for 2 damage or if you find another way to deal 2 more, otherwise it's the same clock!
The one way I would glady use him is as FoW-fodder.
Plus, geist beeing a "plan" requires a few copies... where each extra copy drawn is horrible.
You shouldn't replace stoneforge with geist. Geist coms in in addion to stoneforge to have more chance to draw a clock. We have enough dead cards to board out against combo. If geist would be anything else i would either have cards for other matchups which would leave some dead cards in against combo. Or i would add more counters and discard which i already have largely enough of. Sure, you can board in 4+ counters and discard against combo and try to choke them out, buthaving a clock is far more effective. Once geist drops or SFM+sofaf they know they have to speed it up and eventually you force them to take risks. That's where you catch them with counters.
A friend of mine is quite a good ANT player. I playtest against him very often. If we don't have a clock on the table they laugh at our disruption. They just outdraw our discard and pick away counters one by one. Geist isn't the best option against combo as i said earlier, because clique would be much better. But geist shines in all the other matchups where clique sucks. In some games you need to pressure your opponent and geist does that just fine.
Every combo player I've spoken to agrees with Esperblade's Geist plan postboard. I always go -3 Lingering Souls, +3 Geist postboard versus combo. I then start boarding out -1 Supreme Verdict, -1 Vindicate, -2 StP for +1 Force of Will, +1 IoK, +2 Spell Pierce. Not sure why people are sticking their nose up at Geist versus combo, but are 100% onboard with Souls versus combo...
EDIT: My tourney report is up http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...l=1#post719988 if you're interested in reading. Specifically, my Esperblade opponent boarding in Geist versus me and it completely wrecked me. This is two straight weeks for me where Geist was the determining factor in winning/losing games in the mirror match; I think people are underestimating how devastating Geist is in the mirror.
EDIT2: Not a single Blade Control deck in the Top 32 at SCG Open Seattle. Thoughts? Just an outlier or a telling sign that Esperblade may be getting pushed out of Tier 1 as the "fair deck of choice"?
Except, I prefer finding SoFaF with my stoneforges. Like, every time. And then, I prefer having my clock actually being imune to any kind of interaction the other player might have (burning wish for bounce spell on the germ token NOT uncommon, and a mojor loss of time). Also, good storm players don't care about you taping out, they care about when they will be in a do or die situation, and how much disruption you have in your hands. If they are making you discard your sword, then to me, it signals that their hand is actually horrible, and that you have time to devellop yourself. If you have only one way of interacting with them, you will die anyways, no matter if you are tapped out or not on turn 3. As simple as it gets. it is what I call a calculate risk, where if you can use your discard spells early on, you can tap out with a high probability that you will untap with a clock on the table. Otherwise, you are representing FoW, and they will decide if they actually believe you or not. If they are going off with duress backup, it won't even matter. they will take the piece of the force, whatever you can cast. last thing, geist requiring a few copies to work argument can be applied to everything with a legend rule clause on it. Including your 3 postboard cliques that you happen to play. In other words, contradicting philosophies, I believe, as I do think you bring them all in for the storm matchup.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mackan
Now, I don't know, but as a storm player miself (played storm religiously before swtiching to stoneforge variants), I am way more afraid of a geist that stoneforge and a batterskull hitting me in the face. Well, not that a batterskull WON'T scare me sometimes, but at least I can make you lose time by bouncing the germ token, or I have ways to interact with it somewhere in my sideboard via burning wish. I have outs, if my hand doesn't win now. Geist just hits me in the face, and every hit makes my last resort ad nauseum worse than batterskull will make it. You are gaining some life? cool, it's actually 2 more storm I need each time you hit me, which isn't THAT much more, since the incusion of past in flames.
Now, be free to say what you want, but I do think it is a mistake to place geist as FoW fodder before even trying it.
Why are people acting like this deck only has 2-3 cards to board out versus combo? We have TONS of dead cards versus them that can come out. Lingering Souls, Supreme Verdict, and Vindicate are 100% dead versus virtually every form of combo, so that's 5 cards right there. If you want to board out 1-4 StP, then that's 6-9 cards freed up. Are people actually crying over 6-9 free slots to use to wreck combo? WTF?
But I need my WoGs and StPs to kill their Goblin tokens!Quote:
Originally Posted by Arsenal
Also, Stp heals me if I hit my creatures to save me from Tendrils!