Printable View
@slave: that sb plan vs storm seems weak to discard. I definitely want Chancellor or leyline of sanctity in my 75.
I agree on not cutting completely dr's. It's good to have 2 different token generators vs meddling mage, and having only 4 slows us down by a lot.
I've just had huge success with Leyline of Sanctity. And that's true that the deck is cold to discard, unless you have double counter in your hand.
Just look at how many cards target you in Storm. You cut out their ability to make informed decisions. This puts serious pressure on them because:
1. You're going to assault them and rip their hand apart with Therapy (remember, we run Probe now too which makes Therapy more dangerous).
2. You're going to combo out on them first with Dread Return.
3. You're going to counter their attempt at going for Empty the Warrens or some other spell.
While an opponent is looking for ways around your one card, you're attacking them from multiple angles.
Also, assuming you open with Leyline and a blue card, you've got two draws to find a back-breaking counter. Street Wraith also works double-duty in that department in being able to cycle into counters.
I wanted to share some impresions and doubts about the last development of the deck (FoW + Shoal).
It seems an "all pourpose" tech but i think that it's reserved for 2 situations:
A- Cage / RiP decks (RUG / enchantress, dead and taxes and Miracles respectively): will try to counter them removing probe (shoal) for cage and moeba (shoal) for rip. Do you suggest adding discard for hit them to increase the chance to hit them? I imagne on the play g2 and usmasking them when the counter is not accompained with a blue card or we have no counter at all. Which other decks run cage / rip hate?
B- Combo decks. This is a great strategy, hit rite of flame, dark ritual or even infernal tutor or belcher is just awesome. I'm on the trap side but i'm reading hollywood with great results with leyline.
I'd go this configuration:
4 Fow
4 Disrrupting shoal
4 Leyline / Trap
3 Sickening shoal (yes my meta is full of shaman) / Unmask.
Side note: I feel really very dispointed when i keep a good hand and the opo goes shaman t1. What is the best for for deal with this scenario?
Thx!!
GC.
If an opponent is on DRS, I don't side out any Wraiths or Phants.Quote:
Originally Posted by GoldenCid
Fair enough,Quote:
Originally Posted by Thrasher
I'm not playing either Leyline (don't have them) or Chancellor (I have force in the main instead) right now.
I think Force and Chancellor carry out the same job don't they?
I always found chancellor only ever slowed them down for a turn, which doesn't really help that much. Kinda why I don't run it. I've also had them Reanimated by my opponent a few times too...:eek:
I can see the value in Leyline. I may have to buy a set.
Yeah I guess you have a point, it's only one slot afterall...Quote:
Originally Posted by Dick_Tator
My thought is that counters are only there to buy time until we Cabal Therapy them. It's really only the first 3 turns I worry about, after that our chances of discarding their meat just got a lot more likely. Since Storm rarely runs much creature defence, we can usually just stomp them should the game get beyond turn4.
Chancellor slows them in THE turn. Discard spells and DRS are not useful unless played in the first turn.Quote:
Originally Posted by slave
You don't really need Flayer. You can easily reanimate Whirlpool Rider and win with triple therapy. For the lists playing it, chancellor is usually the best DR Target.
I agree with it being for those 2 situations. That's what it does in my list, at least. You shouldn't have problems with 4 Chancellor 4 Phantasmagorian 4 Street Wraith, i usually play 1 sickening shoal MD, too, i have a free slot and it's quite good at hitting oozes, shamans, and elesh norns.Quote:
Originally Posted by GoldenCid
Leyline + counter is easily the best thing we can do versus storm. It requires heavy sideboarding, though, and the deck ends up being quite diluted. I found that plan to be very good with leyline on the board, but significantly worse without it, unless we somehow get the first dredge going. I usually side only 4 FoW 4 Trap because i think it's the best way to try to go for the double counter/Chancellor + counter route/Chancellor + wraith without diluting the deck (Trap doesn't need a pitch, it's easier to get it active).Quote:
Originally Posted by Hollywood
Leyline is generally a more versatile card, though. i like it versus bojuka bog. I have them ready in case lands gets more popular here.
Leyline is a bit of a gamble, a lot of the better players will understand it's better to go all-in instead of trying to answer Leyline and giving you the turn you need to start dredging and discarding Cabal Therapy - I tried it regularly vs TES and either got Silenced or they beat me down with Goblin tokens.
I typically prefer Chancellor of the Annex over Leyline of Sanctity for that reason, a lot of combo players are just like "whatever" and try to kill you anyway and the odds of them getting away with it are actually pretty good. If you consider they probably won game 1, they go all in on game 2 on a free roll and either win the match or go straight to game 3 and each time they do this they always get the 8th card so their odds of going off are that much better.
I'd rather Daze, Time Walk into my Dredge and then let them Duress me because it actually sets them back from their fundamental turn by 1 or maybe 2 turns when they can't cantrip on their first and they choose to Duress me on their second turn.
It seems like the "surprise" value of MDing Force of Will has worn off already.
If an opponent has Silence and is able to Empty the Warrens before you can get going, you weren't winning that game to begin with no matter what you're boarding in.
Also, how is Leyline a "gamble"? Couldn't the same be said for every other card in the deck you want to open hand to play? Your counters, Macabres, Street Wraiths - everything is reliant on being in your opening hand in order to be effective.
The key is what's worth opening that hurts an opponent the most and has more versatility in other matchups. Leyline fits the bill here, and honestly with counters and the very threat of Probe-Therapy should be enough to close games out.
Leyline blanks a huge percentage of a Storm player's deck and forces them to play your game instead of you playing around theirs with discard and such.
Hello boys and girls I have a small probllema this Saturday have tilt we will be approximately 60 in the last tilt in the top 8 uvieron 6 dredges the regunta is aoparte of the faeires use black leilines?
Do you mean what happens if they open with Leyline of the void? We just roll over and die. But since leyline of the void is not played in large quantities (in my meta not even once) I accept the random loss against it.Quote:
Originally Posted by gato con botas
I guess he meant that there were 6 dredges in the previous tournament. If i guessed correctly then go with both. If there are really all those dredge decks i'd pack more than 4 pieces of hate, maybe 6.
Why do they need Silence and Empty the Warrens, all they need is Empty the Warrens and considering they get 8 cards and you have to wait 2 turns to Dredge they can usually just play Goblins and race you. It might work vs ANT because that deck is a lot slower than TES, but TES just ignored the Leyline of Sanctity and went all in aggressively regardless of "the fear" of a counter spell and had a high enough win % to reliably close out the match in 3 games.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hollywood
I like Chancellor of the Annex because there's no way to go around him, they pay the Daze cost period and Leyline of Sanctity is a "gamble" in the sense that if you don't have anything backing it up they can just go off undisrupted compared to Chancellor of the Annex and you just Time Walked yourself to do nothing basically.
Just find a good TES pilot and test the match up, you'll see Leyline is kind of bleh vs Goblins. I'm not saying Chancellor is really that much better, but I like having Chancellor vs other stuff because it's pretty good against everything basically instead of being really good vs one thing. I mean if Leyline works for you then go for it, I've played with it before, but I just think there are more ways around it.
Either you've got it in your hand or you don't. Probability says you don't, but have a way to get it. I run counters, so Wishes and Tutors aren't resolving under the protection of a Leyline. Discard nullifies that prospect almost entirely, and I'm sure a Storm pilot would gladly pay one mana for a Chrome Mox or Probe to just win.Quote:
Originally Posted by Final Fortune
That's my point: Leyline forces an opponent to go all in blind against counters. Empty the Warrens is a one of in almost all variations main, so either my opponent gets lucky or I counter their predominant acceleration.
Unless you've got Silence. In which case it doesn't matter.
And I like Leyline better. Case closed.Quote:
I like Chancellor of the Annex because there's no way to go around him, they pay the Daze cost period and Leyline of Sanctity is a "gamble" in the sense that if you don't have anything backing it up they can just go off undisrupted compared to Chancellor of the Annex and you just Time Walked yourself to do nothing basically.
That's funny. Who do you think taught Bryant Cook how to play Magic?Quote:
Just find a good TES pilot and test the match up, you'll see Leyline is kind of bleh vs Goblins.
Look, here's what it boils down to:
The deck I run is a bit more reactive with the inclusion of counters. I've heard people get worked up on other forums because of this change. Consider this: all of your dredgers are virtually free draws spells with a buyback cost of "0." You semi-autonomously sit back and let them do work for you.
Yeah, trigger mamanagement is key. But once you master that and situational Magic, it's cake. It really is. Think about how scary it is for an opponent watching you bypass interaction and, for all intents and purposes, accumulate a hand out of your graveyard by doing nothing really except for discarding. That's terrifying, and anyone who says otherwise is probably lying.
Permission gives the deck the edge it was missing by controlling the game state and stunning opponents who keep weak hands or boarded incorrectly. This deck more than any other punishes the unprepared severely.
The false premise that counters make the deck less threat intensive is egregious. Ichorids? Check. Shadows? Check. Bridges? Check. Dread Returns? Check. Therapys? Check.
The hardest part of this archetype is knowing how to sideboard correctly. That changes based on a variety of factors. I've also been a proponent of running Faerie main for the longest time in metas that warrant it; that isn't going to change anytime soon.
ETW being a 1 of has no barring on the discussion, all of TES' threats either tutor for it or wish for it. I've just found Leyline gives them more chances to go off than Chancellor if they ignore it, you have to take stuff like Belcher and Hermit Druids into consideration as well.
Are you just arguing for the sake of arguing at this point lol? It does have a huge deal to do with the discussion, in fact it has everything to do with this discussion because Empty the Warrens - against a Leyline of Sanctity and counterspells - literally has to be in the opponent's opening hand in order to win them the game undisturbed. Anything else gets countered, including key acceleration and tutors in the process. They aren't casting Duress, Probe, Therapy, Tendrils or anything else that targets me unless they go for Empty the Warrens - which has to be in their opening hand or drawn naturally/cantripped into.Quote:
Originally Posted by Final Fortune
And they literally have to try and fire it off by turn two - in the face of an unknown hand, no less - or risk having their hand shredded and combo'd out. We also get two draws to find another counter in the process, which is fine by me.
Yeah, Belcher isn't doing anything against Leyline of Sanctity, or Force of Will/Shoal on a Wish or key Ritual effect to ice Empty the Warrens - much like Storm where their primary win condition is a targeted spell (Tendrils->Belcher), and their secondary win condition is Empty the Warrens (or vice versa - doesn't matter). And as for "Hermit Druid": we run counterspells and Faerie Macabres, which is just backbreaking. Neither of those match-ups scare me the least bit - not one iota. That's how comfortable I am with my sideboard.Quote:
I've just found Leyline gives them more chances to go off than Chancellor if they ignore it, you have to take stuff like Belcher and Hermit Druids into consideration as well.
Played a small 8-man tournament Wednesday night with the Force of Will main version of the deck. I did not run Faerie Macabre main, but had three in the board. I beat Death and Taxes (2-1) and BUG Delver (2-1), but lost to Jund (0-2). The BUG and Jund matchups had turn one Deathrite 4 of the 5 games.
I was able to fight through the BUG matchup using Phantasmagorian and Street Wraith shenanigans coupled with their terrible mana base, but I went down hard to the Jund. Deathrite combined with Scavenging Ooze post board were more than this "little engine that could" could handle.
I wasn't terribly concerned with the Deathrite, but the Ooze shut me down completely. I realize Ooze doesn't see a ton of play, but I just wanted to note that it is a huge pothole for this deck and the community should be aware of it's presence in Jund sideboards. Disrupting Shoal, Contagion or Sickening Shoal should be boarded in against this matchup.
Ok, you just seem to have the counter for everything in your hand at any time so there doesn't seem to be any point in carrying on this discussion, Rest in Peace "no problem, I'll just Dryad Arbor and Reverent Silence and win after a double Time Walk" Storm no problem "I'll just Leyline of Sanctity and always draw Force of Will and a blue card too" Reanimator no problem, "My 2 MD Faerie Macabre will turn the match up around." If you run like god you can justify anything, wtf is the point of having a rational discussion with you when my novelty of MD FoW has suddenly turned the Storm match up into a 100% lock for the deck, fuck aggro-control man we can all just play Manaless Dredge and face roll the format now.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hollywood
I play chancellor over force in the maindeck, and jund is a pretty good matchup. I usually side 4 counters, and often manage to win at least one of g2/3. I often see it played it 1/2 copies, it shouldn't be that troublesome. If you lose g1 then yes, you might want to side 8 counters. You can't afford to go to g2 with one loss and praying to dodge it for both games. Winning g1 you can expect to dodge it for at least one game, that's why i side half the counters.Quote:
Originally Posted by Red Zone
Don't be an ass hat when responding to posts. If you're going to post something on here please be constructive. If not, I would whole heartedly encourage you to keep your sarcasm to yourself.Quote:
Originally Posted by Final Fortune
Or people could stop being intellectually dishonest and actually admit when a card has a weakness and there are other acceptable substitutes to that card and MD configurations instead of using whatever rhetoric comes to mind to justify their flavour of the month card choices in Dredge? I really don't care whether or not he plays Leyline or Chancellor, I've even played Leyline myself before back when he originally dismissed it because "leylines are bad in Dredge" and then he later accepted it, because it's efficacy is going to heavily depend on which Storm or Combo variants he faces. I was just pointing out that Leyline has an exploitable weakness to Empty the Warrens if they don't fear the counter because you time walk yourself out of the ability to deal with it and "don't worry, I always draw Leyline and a counter" is not an honest way to compare the cards merrits because even tho' he may math says you wont.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jankwolf
I probably play Manaless Dredge vs combo decks more than any one else because I play primarily on MTGO, and I spent a really long time trying to find any way I could to shore up the combo match up and I know each of those cards exploits. I'm not saying Chancellor is hands down better because it has its own problems, he's right about Gitaxian Probe or Chrome Mox burning thru' it but it still always costs them a card and they can't always afford to lose a card and go off immediately so you usually buy a turn to start dredging immediately and then hope they lose another turn to Cabal Therapying you, naming the wrong counter or they don't have enough mana to win immediately despite discarding the counter and you have a chance to dredge up a Cabal Therapy yourself next turn, but more importantly Chancellor gives EV vs Deathrite Shaman where Leyline doesn't really give EV vs any other tertiary cards in the format other than a Nihil Spellbomb which is really debeatably worth SBing it in for at all.
The fact of the matter is Storm is a bad match up and his hyperbole hasn't solved that, the problem is probably worse for me than it is for him and even I don't put all of my eggs into the anti-storm basket because Deathrite Shaman is a more important consideration. I've pretty much moved to Mana Dredge for the moment because even with Force of Will in the MD and the blue SB the match up vs combo is an uphill battle and Rest in Peace is still a major problem, things have gotten better but the deck is still a glass cannon instead of a daily driver. I could be entirely convinced that we should go back to playing Chancellor and Arbor in the MD and just SB Force of Will/Disrupting Shoal and run 7 slots vs Reanimator even tho' I think Gitaxian Probe/Whirlpool Rider gave this deck the first legitimate progression in years just because it's your win% vs Deathrite Shaman that's probably going to get you to and thru' the T8.
In short, Leyline and Chancellor are pretty equivalent vs Storm, actually I should say Chancellor is probably weaker vs Storm, but Chancellor provides added winning% vs arguably the most ubiquitous graveyard hate in the format so it should probably get the nod in a tournament setting. If he plays vs ANT like every other match up tho' then yeah Leyline of Sanctity is pretty damn good.