[Deck] U/R Delver

So, about kiln fiend. Pros:

-GREAT against combos that don't interact on the battlefield;
-Can win you the game if connect once (may be 9-12 damage, but the deck has delvers and bolts... if it does connect for this ammount of damage is almost certain G_G);
-The deck may run distortion strike

Cons:

-Doesn't pitch for fow
-Doesn't have haste
-Doesn't have evasion (even though the deck may run distortion strike)
-Dies to any red removal spell
-Died to pyroclasm and Rough // Thumble (The 4 delver +8 prowess creatures allows the deck to run it!!)

I'm very inclined to run stormchaser mage, but I think it's a close call.

Just figured I'd suggest it. Whenever I play UR I just want to kill my opponent as fast as possible, rather than grind out games. The deck runs enough bolts that kiln fiend is definitely worth playing (and if your opponent has no creatures out it's an immediate turn 3 win with 3 spells (if two of them are bolt effects), or 4 spells if you have a git probe or two. Also, it punishes people for removing delver.

It's a good suggestion for an underdeveloped meta, but say you turn 2 play this, you are drawn in to the Danger of Cool Things to in fact win on turn 3, only to be blown out by a well-timed Terminus for maximum value, or a Snapcaster into the bolt/StP that took care of the turn 1 Delver. It's just too "glass cannon" to be competitive imho.

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You're probably right, but it's what I use when I pilot the deck because it's more fun. Plus with threats like delver and swiftspear it's not the worst to play something that they HAVE to STP.

Went 4-0 and undefeated in games.
My creature base is 4 delver, 4 swiftspear, 3 stormchaser mage, 2 lavamancer, 2 snapcasters.
Round 1: Beat infect as he went all in and I won the counter war and had answer to his creatures.
Round 2: Aluren. Both games I had double flipped delvers and swiftspear and PoP him.
Round 3: UW Stoneforge, both games he almost turns the game around with stoneforge fetching batterskull but I just have the timely burn and sideboard smash to smithereens. Also some damage done by Stomchaser mage added up nicely.
Round 4: Grixis Delver. Double swiftspear, chained some probes together and burn spells to finish the game.

Thoughts:
Stormchaser mage was meh. Tapping 2 mana is tough when I only have 2 or 3 mana whole game and don't want to get dazed.
Likewise Snapcaster didn't do anything-mostly brainstormed it away. 4 lightning bolt and 4 chain lightning won all my games. Thinking of going back to goblin guide and cutting stormchaser...

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Originally Posted by Sunday Funday

Went 4-0 and undefeated in games.
My creature base is 4 delver, 4 swiftspear, 3 stormchaser mage, 2 lavamancer, 2 snapcasters.
Round 1: Beat infect as he went all in and I won the counter war and had answer to his creatures.
Round 2: Aluren. Both games I had double flipped delvers and swiftspear and PoP him.
Round 3: UW Stoneforge, both games he almost turns the game around with stoneforge fetching batterskull but I just have the timely burn and sideboard smash to smithereens. Also some damage done by Stomchaser mage added up nicely.
Round 4: Grixis Delver. Double swiftspear, chained some probes together and burn spells to finish the game.

Thoughts:
Stormchaser mage was meh. Tapping 2 mana is tough when I only have 2 or 3 mana whole game and don't want to get dazed.
Likewise Snapcaster didn't do anything-mostly brainstormed it away. 4 lightning bolt and 4 chain lightning won all my games. Thinking of going back to goblin guide and cutting stormchaser...

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I also found snaps to be meh. I never really wanted it.

You probably can go more burn burn burn. 4 chains, 4 bolts, and 2 more of something else, forked bolt?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by KobeBryan

I also found snaps to be meh. I never really wanted it.

You probably can go more burn burn burn. 4 chains, 4 bolts, and 2 more of something else, forked bolt?

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my burn suite is 4 bolts, 4 chains, 1 forked bolt, 2 PoP

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sunday Funday

my burn suite is 4 bolts, 4 chains, 1 forked bolt, 2 PoP

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i have 3 pop. no forked.

Lava spike may work too.

The deck is clearly putting up results lately: http://mtgtop8.com/event?e=11508&d=265460&f=LE

What do you guys think about running daze? I've been having some success without it and prefer pierce.
my spell suite is:

4 brainstorm
4 force of will
4 gitaxian probe
2 ponder
2 spell pierce
4 lightning bolt
4 chain lightning
2 price of progress
1 forked bolt

My creature base is a few posts earlier.

Don't know.
Isn't "T1 Delver with Daze back-up" the reason why we play this deck? :D
Admittedly not THE reason but surely once of the Top 4 reasons (along with the burns you listed -my heart goes to KobeBryan burn spells selection- for instance).
But don't get me wrong either, running a pair of Pierces is still awesome. :)

Forked Bolt was great during the Treasure Cruise era to kill off YoungPyro and tokens, FBolt being THE card that would make the difference during the Mirror match.
Nowadays, I feel that it only shines when facing Elfball. Versus any other deck, LBolt and ChainL are just what we want. Exception made, eventually, of Grixis deck running 4 YPyros but still, I personally never felt like UR is having issues in this MU (G1 PoP = win, G2/G3 PoP still = win and Blood Moon wrecks the deck...).

With the rise of Eldrazi decks, I have the feeling like we will soon have to re-MD Vapor Snag or Dismember to make sure to keep up the pace G1. What do you think?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Rocco111

Don't know.
Isn't "T1 Delver with Daze back-up" the reason why we play this deck? :D
Admittedly not THE reason but surely once of the Top 4 reasons (along with the burns you listed -my heart goes to KobeBryan burn spells selection- for instance).
But don't get me wrong either, running a pair of Pierces is still awesome. :)

Forked Bolt was great during the Treasure Cruise era to kill off YoungPyro and tokens, FBolt being THE card that would make the difference during the Mirror match.
Nowadays, I feel that it only shines when facing Elfball. Versus any other deck, LBolt and ChainL are just what we want. Exception made, eventually, of Grixis deck running 4 YPyros but still, I personally never felt like UR is having issues in this MU (G1 PoP = win, G2/G3 PoP still = win and Blood Moon wrecks the deck...).

With the rise of Eldrazi decks, I have the feeling like we will soon have to re-MD Vapor Snag or Dismember to make sure to keep up the pace G1. What do you think?

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Maybe it's just me but I have tried daze and it's been underperforming and also mid to late game top decking a daze is a terrible experience. The Grixis matchup I find that we are a lot faster and the only trump card they have is Angler but normally they die before Angler is out.
I like to prematurely make the assumption that Eldrazi decks won't be a thing in legacy. I personally feel there are way more powerful things and easier ways of cheating undercosted creatures into play.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Rocco111

Don't know.
Isn't "T1 Delver with Daze back-up" the reason why we play this deck? :D
Admittedly not THE reason but surely once of the Top 4 reasons (along with the burns you listed -my heart goes to KobeBryan burn spells selection- for instance).
But don't get me wrong either, running a pair of Pierces is still awesome. :)

Forked Bolt was great during the Treasure Cruise era to kill off YoungPyro and tokens, FBolt being THE card that would make the difference during the Mirror match.
Nowadays, I feel that it only shines when facing Elfball. Versus any other deck, LBolt and ChainL are just what we want. Exception made, eventually, of Grixis deck running 4 YPyros but still, I personally never felt like UR is having issues in this MU (G1 PoP = win, G2/G3 PoP still = win and Blood Moon wrecks the deck...).

With the rise of Eldrazi decks, I have the feeling like we will soon have to re-MD Vapor Snag or Dismember to make sure to keep up the pace G1. What do you think?

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I'm on board with the delver and daze plan. They are the reason I fell in love with this deck the first time I played it. I agree that daze is terrible to top deck late in the game, but it still gets pitched to FOW g1, and can be shuffled away with brainstorm and fetches. Spell pierce is nice but free counterspells are better. I see no problem with boarding in pierces in certain matchups but I would rather have force and daze in the main to start against an unknown opponent.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sunday Funday

Maybe it's just me but I have tried daze and it's been underperforming and also mid to late game top decking a daze is a terrible experience. The Grixis matchup I find that we are a lot faster and the only trump card they have is Angler but normally they die before Angler is out.
I like to prematurely make the assumption that Eldrazi decks won't be a thing in legacy. I personally feel there are way more powerful things and easier ways of cheating undercosted creatures into play.

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I've tried cutting Daze in favor of SP before and went right back to Daze after testing it a bit. Like others have mentioned, Daze is too good to have as a backup, allowing you to tap out to cast an early game creature and still have counter backup in case your opponent has removal. This makes the deck a bit more aggressive. Its ability to target creatures is also a big advantage that Spell Pierce doesn't have, allowing you to counter a Tarmogoyf or another large creature that is usually difficult to deal with. Late game, you can always pitch them to FOW.

Another point is that Spell Pierce was good when the deck ran the full set of Snapcasters. Nowadays, seems like people are not pretty happy about him. I'm personally thinking about running a snapcasterless build with 17 lands.

There are 2 lines of play I'm thinking about:

Delver + Swiftspear + Stormchaser
Delver + Swiftspear + Guide

Woud 12 creatures be a too low ammount of creatures? I'd run more burn instead of the snappies, and also lower 1 land from my normal lists until now. One thing cool about stormchaser is that we would be able to run rough/thumble (i'd play 2 or 3 copies of it in the SB).

But also, the creatures we would be aiming at it would be hit by the higher ammount of forked bolt I'd put on the MD(2 on the MD, and maybe a lavamancer too). Guide always seemed too good for me, when we start with a fast hand, it's the threat we want to see in it. So, the upside of rough/thumble wouldn't be that necessary, and without it in mind, guide seems way better as the deck will have more ways to clear the path for guide to connect.

Well, just some random thoughts and I'm not sure if you guys agree with it, but for the more straightforward version of UR Delver, seems like stormchaser is not better than the other options.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ThiefSlayer

Another point is that Spell Pierce was good when the deck ran the full set of Snapcasters. Nowadays, seems like people are not pretty happy about him. I'm personally thinking about running a snapcasterless build with 17 lands.

There are 2 lines of play I'm thinking about:

Delver + Swiftspear + Stormchaser
Delver + Swiftspear + Guide

Woud 12 creatures be a too low ammount of creatures? I'd run more burn instead of the snappies, and also lower 1 land from my normal lists until now. One thing cool about stormchaser is that we would be able to run rough/thumble (i'd play 2 or 3 copies of it in the SB).

But also, the creatures we would be aiming at it would be hit by the higher ammount of forked bolt I'd put on the MD(2 on the MD, and maybe a lavamancer too). Guide always seemed too good for me, when we start with a fast hand, it's the threat we want to see in it. So, the upside of rough/thumble wouldn't be that necessary, and without it in mind, guide seems way better as the deck will have more ways to clear the path for guide to connect.

Well, just some random thoughts and I'm not sure if you guys agree with it, but for the more straightforward version of UR Delver, seems like stormchaser is not better than the other options.

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I run 4 delver, 4 swiftspear, 4 stormchaser, 2 lavamancers. The lavamancers have been amazing for me clearing the path for my swiftspears and freeing up SB slots since rough/tumble wouldn't be that necessary. If my kiln fiends arrives in the mail tonight I'm going to try them over the stormchasers :)

I tried Stormchaser today with delver and swiftspear and all I have to say is that I don't think they belong together at the UR Delver's gameplan. Stormchaser often times hit for 1 or 2, it's rare to hit for 3 or more. I'll definitely go back to Goblin Guide. Just not sure about the splash between guide/swiftspear/snapcaster/lavamancer.

Really missed snapcaster. The hability to flashback some spell and leave a body in the battlefield is great. I'll try again with at least 2 of them:

4 Delver of Secrets
4 Goblin Guide
2 Monastery Swiftspear
2 Snapcaster Mage
2 Grim Lavamancer

Not really sure about swiftspear also. The need to use spells before combat damage is assigned makes swiftspear look kinda meh to me.

OK I thought I should share with the list I have been playing ever since GP Lille (modulo the ban of DTT).

1 Flooded Strand
1 Mountain
2 Arid Mesa
2 Island
3 Wasteland
3 Misty Rainforest
3 Scalding Tarn
3 Volcanic Island
2 Grim Lavamancer
2 Snapcaster Mage
4 Delver of Secrets
3 Price of Progress
2 Spell Pierce
4 Daze
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Lightning Bolt
3 Chain Lightning
4 Ponder
3 Monastery Swiftspear
1 True-Name Nemesis
1 Divert
1 Wooded Foothills
SB: 2 Smash to Smithereens
SB: 1 Surgical Extraction
SB: 1 Blood Moon
SB: 1 Echoing Truth
SB: 1 Flusterstorm
SB: 1 Grafdigger's Cage
SB: 2 Pyrostatic Pillar
SB: 1 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 1 Sulfur Elemental
SB: 1 Sulfuric Vortex
SB: 1 Pithing Needle
SB: 1 Pyroblast
SB: 1 Null Rod

Just a couple of things to be explained:
- Divert: I recently cut it in favor of 1 Spell Snare MD. Pros of Divert: it's like the Spanish Inquisition... Nobody expects it! Cons: Situational and so better know your meta before playing it.
- "Dude plays Wasteland AND PoP, he's mad": nope, he's not. First, Wastelands are there to answer of couple of threats the deck would normally struggle with (mainly Maze of Ith, Dark Depth, Grove of Burningwillow, Inkmoth Nexus) Post-side, you can litterally Extract them and blow out a complete strategy or cut an engine or even severly handicap your opponent (Grixis without USea or Volc is sthg). Second, PoP is still too good to be left at home. Wasting yourself in response to your PoP might also have its pros in some situations.
- True-name nemesis: we do not count on it as a main option to victory BUT it sure can turn the tide in your favor.
- 2 Grim MD: raises the odds a lot vs Elfball/Grixis/DRS/DnT/Infect. Don't see a reason not to play less. A 3rd one might be too much though.
- 2 Snapcaster: No space for more. But honestly I think 2 is the right number. 3 is still OK though.
- Pyrostatic Pillar over Eidolon: very arguable choice. I just prefer a solution that doesn't die to Bolt/StP and doesn't cost RR. Admittedly, in the MUs where you would play both, mana denial or StP are not very common. :)
- Null Rod: Brilliant vs Sensei top, Excellent vs MUD/Stoneblade
- Grafdigger/Surgical: a mix to attack graveyards from different angles. Plus if you play Snapcaster, you cannot justify not to play Surgical Extraction (imho).
- Echoing truth: Swiss knife
- Vortex: no need to develop I presume
- Blood Moon: because it doesn't prevent your PoP from hurting them very bad... and it make decks like Infect or Lands byes for us.

5th Place at today's SCG Classic.

by Thomas Schleyel

Does he post here? Any thoughts on this list? 4x POP, no Chain Lightning.

Creatures (12)

4 Delver of Secrets
4 Monastery Swiftspear
4 Stormchaser Mage

Lands (16)

2 Island
2 Mountain
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Volcanic Island

Spells (32)

4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Price of Progress
2 Spell Pierce
2 Forked Bolt
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Ponder

Sideboard

1 Grim Lavamancer
1 Izzet Staticaster
2 Blood Moon
2 Sulfuric Vortex
2 Flusterstorm
1 Pyroblast
2 Smash to Smithereens
1 Submerge
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Rough//Tumble

http://sales.starcitygames.com//deck...p?DeckID=98927

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Originally Posted by korstructure

5th Place at today's SCG Classic.

by Thomas Schleyel

Does he post here? Any thoughts on this list? 4x POP, no Chain Lightning.

Creatures (12)

4 Delver of Secrets
4 Monastery Swiftspear
4 Stormchaser Mage

Lands (16)

2 Island
2 Mountain
4 Misty Rainforest
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Volcanic Island

Spells (32)

4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Price of Progress
2 Spell Pierce
2 Forked Bolt
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Ponder

Sideboard

1 Grim Lavamancer
1 Izzet Staticaster
2 Blood Moon
2 Sulfuric Vortex
2 Flusterstorm
1 Pyroblast
2 Smash to Smithereens
1 Submerge
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Rough//Tumble

http://sales.starcitygames.com//deck...p?DeckID=98927

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It looks like he was also the 1 seed after Swiss. Curious to hear how Stormchaser Mage performed.