[Deck] Dredge

I have finally convinced myself to let the Firestorms go from my SB. Although I am still pretty unconvinced to use Leyline of the Void as the only real threat it stops for me is Reanimator (most mirrors are a coin flip, and I'd rather have it at that than use up 4 slots risking mulling to oblivion). With a very diverse metagame and with Surgical Extraction and Gafdigger's Cage being the most used hate card, I am thinking of something like this:

A)

2 Tarnished Citadel
1 Undiscovered Paradise
3 Ashen Ghoul
4 Nature's Claim
2 Dread Return
1 Flayer of the Hatebound
1 Ancient Grudge

The DR and Flayer package, albeit a bit too shallow (as you'd want 2 DR's in the yard together with Flayer for the kill) is simply to up the threat density and to win those long grindy games against Snapcaster + Surgical Extraction decks. I would cut the singleton Ancient Grudge, unfortunately there's just too much Jitte in our meta and I'd rather cut a land.

Alternatively, I could use something like this:

B)

1 Tarnished Citadel
1 Undiscovered Paradise
3 Ashen Ghoul
4 Nature's Claim
2 Chain of Vapor
4 Firestorm

Now, the gameplan of this version of my board VS the first one is quite different. This one decides to not die to LotV, Gafdigger's etc... while still packing enough threats to beat Surgical Extraction. Firestorm is there as Nic Fit, Maverick (both with Ooze) and Goblins were the 3 decks that beat me during my last tourney. Sometimes I find beating Surgical Extraction quite easy even without boarding in the Ashen Ghouls, but it could get a bit grindy.

Lastly, I want to try an experimental board like that of below:

C)

1 Tarnished Citadel
1 Undiscovered Paradise
4 Nature's Claim
4 Street Wraith
3 Ashen Ghoul
2 Brainstorm

Brainstorm can be boarded in any game 2. Whether it be searching for your Nature Claims, instant speed cantrip to protect your dredger, or simply to put back drawn Narcomoebas. The sad thing is, you do not have any shuffle effects, but it could still be quite a tool. Street Wraith will protect you from Surgical Extractions as well. The problem with this board is that it gets a bit redundant. You will want to board most of the cards (aside from Nature's Claim) against a deck you are sure plays Surgical Extraction. Given it isn't THAT hard playing around Surgical Extraction, this seems like a waste of space. Still, I wanna try it out though.

What do you think? A, B or C? :)

Excellent post, btw.

I think option two is best.

First, I don't like cutting Firestorm right now. In addition to Nic Fit, Maverick, and of course, the Tribal(Elves, Goblins, Merfolk) decks, I've also seem quite a few BUG decks with MD Deathrite, and SB Hate. As well as some new Junk decks popping up with MD Deathrite, as well as MD Knight and Ooze. It's also surprisingly effective against RUG, since their primary plan is to counter all of your discard outlets. And Delver is very hard to block for Dredge.

6 permanent removal seems plenty. Especially considering you have the extra colored sources to support both them, and the additional spells you will need to resolve after removing LED post-board.

I'm not 100% on the Ashen Ghoul plan any longer. The decks running Extraction are wise to it. And the Blade decks really don't have much trouble dealing with them. The only way I've found it effective is in conjunction with a DR package. Which, of course, no deck has room to run in conjunction with all of the aforementioned cards. They still beat U/R, and the idiots running Surgical in RUG, so they are fine to keep. But if you are seeing a bunch of decks with Snap+Surgical as indicated, you might want to switch a Chain or two over to Grudge. This will allow full use of your Ghouls through Equipment, or stuff like Ensnaring Bridge(Burn,Tezz, and Miracles). You'll only have four cards for RIP and/or Leyline, but I assume like in most metas, that they are not widely seen right now.

I assume you're running no DR main? In that case, I really wouldn't bother with the Flayer package. It's really only viable maindeck. The only way I would bother with DR in the SB is if you expect Combo. Then, running something like Iona or FKZ allows you to prevent them from topdecking a win. Which is also a viable plan aganst decks with Top, but more difficult to implement since they have direct hate that Combo won't. But having 2-3 slots against Storm, or the mirror is a pretty good reward for the investment. And you can also use them very effectively against something like Miracles, where you will usually have one free turn after you remove their hate, in which to do as much "damage" as possible before they Terminus or Top for another answer that you never get the chance to discard. Iona shuts their whole deck down, as it does against most Combo, and to a lesser extent, Tribal. But considering the proposed SB, you'd have to trim a Breakthrough, Thug, or PImp to fit it. Just depends on what you expect to see.

Hi guys, Is memory's journey a card to consider in the SB? What other usage does it have other than saving yourself from extraction?

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Originally Posted by sadakiyo

Hi guys, Is memory's journey a card to consider in the SB? What other usage does it have other than saving yourself from extraction?

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I haven't found too much of a use for it. It also helps you put the narcos back in the deck and dredge it out for cabal or dread.

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Do not be afraid. I bring you good news of great joy that will be for all the people.

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Play manaless. It really is THAT good.

I'll be taking Dredge to SCG Baltimore, my current sideboard:
1 Elesh-Norn
1 Griselbrand
3 Leyline Of The Void
4 Nature's Claim
3 Nether Shadow
1 Ichorid
1 Breakthrough
1 Careful Study

Is Iona better than Elesh-Norn? I feel the meta has adapted in a way that Iona just crushes to many decks, Miracles name White and they can't win, Maverick Green, Goblins Red, etc

Iona and Elesh Norn fill completely different roles for when you want them, so you can't really compare them straight up.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Valtrix

Iona and Elesh Norn fill completely different roles for when you want them, so you can't really compare them straight up.

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It is mainly in that I don't feel I need Elesh-Norn in the matches she comes in, I may decide to just cut the Careful Study for Iona

http://www.mtgdeckbuilder.net/Decks/ViewDeck/345829

Any suggestions? Based off of the manaless dredge list, except using former extended finisher Flame-kin Zealot for the win-con and Sphinx of Lost Truths to accelerate into the win.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by EpicLevelCommoner

http://www.mtgdeckbuilder.net/Decks/ViewDeck/345829

Any suggestions? Based off of the manaless dredge list, except using former extended finisher Flame-kin Zealot for the win-con and Sphinx of Lost Truths to accelerate into the win.

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I would ask for advice in the Manaless dredge thread.

I no longer know how to play dredge without my Lion's Eye Diamonds.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by EpicLevelCommoner

http://www.mtgdeckbuilder.net/Decks/ViewDeck/345829

Any suggestions? Based off of the manaless dredge list, except using former extended finisher Flame-kin Zealot for the win-con and Sphinx of Lost Truths to accelerate into the win.

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For all intents and purposes, Sphinx of Lost Truths has been obsoleted by the more powerful Griselbrand. The list itself appears to be an older variation of Manaless in and of itself. For more information on Manaless, check out this thread out here.

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Originally Posted by Parcher

Excellent post, btw.

I think option two is best.

First, I don't like cutting Firestorm right now. In addition to Nic Fit, Maverick, and of course, the Tribal(Elves, Goblins, Merfolk) decks, I've also seem quite a few BUG decks with MD Deathrite, and SB Hate. As well as some new Junk decks popping up with MD Deathrite, as well as MD Knight and Ooze. It's also surprisingly effective against RUG, since their primary plan is to counter all of your discard outlets. And Delver is very hard to block for Dredge.

6 permanent removal seems plenty. Especially considering you have the extra colored sources to support both them, and the additional spells you will need to resolve after removing LED post-board.

I'm not 100% on the Ashen Ghoul plan any longer. The decks running Extraction are wise to it. And the Blade decks really don't have much trouble dealing with them. The only way I've found it effective is in conjunction with a DR package. Which, of course, no deck has room to run in conjunction with all of the aforementioned cards. They still beat U/R, and the idiots running Surgical in RUG, so they are fine to keep. But if you are seeing a bunch of decks with Snap+Surgical as indicated, you might want to switch a Chain or two over to Grudge. This will allow full use of your Ghouls through Equipment, or stuff like Ensnaring Bridge(Burn,Tezz, and Miracles). You'll only have four cards for RIP and/or Leyline, but I assume like in most metas, that they are not widely seen right now.

I assume you're running no DR main? In that case, I really wouldn't bother with the Flayer package. It's really only viable maindeck. The only way I would bother with DR in the SB is if you expect Combo. Then, running something like Iona or FKZ allows you to prevent them from topdecking a win. Which is also a viable plan aganst decks with Top, but more difficult to implement since they have direct hate that Combo won't. But having 2-3 slots against Storm, or the mirror is a pretty good reward for the investment. And you can also use them very effectively against something like Miracles, where you will usually have one free turn after you remove their hate, in which to do as much "damage" as possible before they Terminus or Top for another answer that you never get the chance to discard. Iona shuts their whole deck down, as it does against most Combo, and to a lesser extent, Tribal. But considering the proposed SB, you'd have to trim a Breakthrough, Thug, or PImp to fit it. Just depends on what you expect to see.

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First, you are absolutely right. Deathrite Shaman is definitely the last straw to justify playing Firestorm over Leyline of the Void in your 75. I can't believe I didn't think of that sooner. :eek:

Managed to go 4-2 playing Quadlaser with the 2nd option SB as suggested. Went 3-1 before finally losing to DnT with RiP in round 5 :frown: That match really hurt. I won Game 1 on turn 1 (Had approx. 16 Zombies and he conceded).

I actually almost never used any of my SB. The only game I played (or rather, casted) Nature's Claim was against Esper Stoneblade G3. He had FoW so it didn't matter. That was my other loss.

I came to the tourney planning to never SB on Game 2's when I won Game 1's. Well, I won all Game 1's and had only one 2-0, so I guess I'd really need SB'ing tips lol. I feel like that's the only remaining flaw in my Dredge game. I could really use much advice on how to board against certain matchups especially since the reason I don't like SB'ing on G2 is that I do not (or rather, am not sure) what hate they're packing. I'd rather be dead to a certain card than have dead cards really.

Further, I played 3 RUGs during the course of the tournament and I must say I found the matchup much easier now. I found that slowing yourself down by playing the Cabal Therapy in your opening hand on your first turn is worth the delay every time. I found UR Delver a much tougher matchup due to the additional reach it packs especially during the grindy games, but that's just me.

I am reconsidering the Ashen Ghoul plan. I have played around Surgical Extraction a few times this tourney and I am getting comfortable at it. Putrid Imp is the key, although any other discard outlet works fine. Problem is, it feels like I would really need something else to play the role of Surgical Extraction defense. By cutting Ashen Ghouls, I'd free up 4 spaces up in my board (3 Ashen Ghoul, 1 Land) and I'm thinking Street Wraith actually. More permanent removal would help but the only option I can think of at the moment is Chain of Vapor, which blows against RiP (which is the main reason why I want more permanent removal).

Probably my sickest hand during the course of the tourney was a mull to 5 hand of LED, LED, LED, Faithless Looting, GGT. I had kept it on the play, drew a land, and that was GG from there. Just goes to show much Faithless Looting improved the deck (by making no-land hands playable as long as you had FL and LED).

I love this deck. :smile:

P.S. Someone please ship me a playset of Reverent Silence for Manaless list, its the only thing left I don't have. I can't find them anywhere locally. Shipping costs > the cards themselves and I really do not need any other cards. :cry:

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Originally Posted by sherko7

I actually almost never used any of my SB. The only game I played (or rather, casted) Nature's Claim was against Esper Stoneblade G3. He had FoW so it didn't matter. That was my other loss.

I came to the tourney planning to never SB on Game 2's when I won Game 1's. Well, I won all Game 1's and had only one 2-0, so I guess I'd really need SB'ing tips lol. I feel like that's the only remaining flaw in my Dredge game. I could really use much advice on how to board against certain matchups especially since the reason I don't like SB'ing on G2 is that I do not (or rather, am not sure) what hate they're packing. I'd rather be dead to a certain card than have dead cards really.

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Sideboarding with Quadlazer is pretty easy and straight forward.

Against Esperblade:
-4 LEDs, an Ichorid, a Thug, a Pimp
Add lands, Ashen Ghouls, and Ancient Grudge

Miracles:
Same as Esperblade except don't side in Ancient Grudge

Delver Rug:
Same as Esperblade except keep LEDs in exchange for Breakthroughs(maybe keep one Breakthrough in)

The aforementioned decks use some combination of Surgicals and Tormord's. If they use Cage you want to adjust accordingly for game 3.

Maverick:
Nothing race them.

Those are some of the more popular decks you may play against.

Leyline of the Void is only good for the mirror and Reanimator, however very good against them. If you don't anticipate on playing either of those decks then by all means cut the Leylines. If you expect to play either matchup one or twice in a tournament then I would say they are worth the four slots.

Hey guys I have a quick nooby ruling question with cabal therapy..

If the guy has nether void out and I try to sacrifice a narcomoeba to flash cabal therapy and not pay the 3 extra, I can still sacrifice the narco right? Because I sac to "try" and flash it back?

Correct, it's simply get countered, you still have to pay the cost (sacrificing a creature).

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Originally Posted by joemauer

Sideboarding with Quadlazer is pretty easy and straight forward.

Against Esperblade:
-4 LEDs, an Ichorid, a Thug, a Pimp
Add lands, Ashen Ghouls, and Ancient Grudge

Miracles:
Same as Esperblade except don't side in Ancient Grudge

Delver Rug:
Same as Esperblade except keep LEDs in exchange for Breakthroughs(maybe keep one Breakthrough in)

The aforementioned decks use some combination of Surgicals and Tormord's. If they use Cage you want to adjust accordingly for game 3.

Maverick:
Nothing race them.

Those are some of the more popular decks you may play against.

Leyline of the Void is only good for the mirror and Reanimator, however very good against them. If you don't anticipate on playing either of those decks then by all means cut the Leylines. If you expect to play either matchup one or twice in a tournament then I would say they are worth the four slots.

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Thank you very much for the advice! I guess this would probably be much better than trying to outright race everybody game 2. Your boarding plan against RUG is genius by the way, not sure if its common knowledge haha :laugh:

Will definitely try the tips above next tourney, thanks.

Also, I guess its worth mentioning I have near zero time to playtest. I hate playing the deck on Cockatrice, and I really have no time for playing at the local shop/s due to A) the nearest shop here has a scarce amount of Legacy players, B) Work. :cry:

I need some help with a decision I am having difficulty resolving.

Assume I am running a standard Quad list, removing the fourth Thug for a land, and the fourth Breakthrough for a DR.

I am certain now that I want to add a 12th Dredger in. However, I can't reconcile how.

The only card I am comfortable removing considering MD and SB requirements, is the fourth PImp. PImp is indivudually a stronger card than any of it's considered replacements, but isn't as paramount to the actual functions of the deck, since too often I am without a dredger, rendering PImp fairly useless in that case.

Thug replaces PImp as what I consider a needed Black creature to feed Ichorid. But not as a discard outlet.

Darkblast dredges almost as well as Thug, has a bit more utility, and almost acts as a discard outlet if only considering gettting a dredger into the yard. But it won't get you an Ichorid into play.

My issue is; if PImp is the only option for removal, and Thug or Darkblast are the only two options as a replacement, which is more important? Having a Dredge 4 that you can often hardcast for value, and facilitates Ichorid, or a mediocre removal spell that can Dredge 3, often save Ichorids or Bridges, and most often counts as an instant-speed discard outlet?

My Current 75:

Dredgers: 12
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
3 Golgari Thug
1 Darkblast

Gas Spells: 10
4 Careful Study
3 Faithless Looting
3 Breakthrough

Goodstuffs:24
4 Bridge From Below
3 Ichorid
1 Flayer of the Hatebound
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
3 Dread Return
4 Narcomoeba
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Putrid Imp

Lands: 14
4 Gemstone Mine
4 City of Brass
4 Cephalid Coliseum
2 Undiscovered Paradise

Sideboard: 15
3 Coffin Purge
4 Nature's Claim
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Ray of Revelation
1 Flame-Kin Zealot
1 Ancestor's Chosen
1 Breakthrough
1 Ichorid


So, some reasoning for sideboard choices:
Coffin Purge. There are quite a few decks in my area that game 2 and 3 bring in Surgicals and Extirpates, but no other hate, Purge gives me a little resilience to that, and helps against the random Graveyard decks that pop-up randomly.
Nature's Claim. Self Explanatory.
Ancient Grudge. Again Self Explanatory.
Ray of Revelations. Enchantress is a deck in my meta so having extra post board hate is extremely helpful.
Flame-kin Zealot. For games where I need the extra aggression I drop Iona for another I Win Button.
Ancestor's Chosen. Apparently the majority of my meta is still developing so everyone and their brother is making Burn or other fast decks that become crippled by the insane lifegain Chosen provides, this is also why the maindeck Iona.

Breakthrough and Ichorid, Just so I can still have my four sets AKA space filler for now, I am working on getting new cards for the slots, I actually did pick up Contagion's and am working on Grieselbrands as well.

So yeah, that is what I am currently working with. I do not own LEDs at the moment or they would probably be in the list already. I still am a fan of the more "combo-y" finish with Dread Return in the Main board.

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Originally Posted by Beatusnox

My Current 75:

Dredgers: 12
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
3 Golgari Thug
1 Darkblast

Gas Spells: 10
4 Careful Study
3 Faithless Looting
3 Breakthrough

Goodstuffs:24
4 Bridge From Below
3 Ichorid
1 Flayer of the Hatebound
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
3 Dread Return
4 Narcomoeba
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Putrid Imp

Lands: 14
4 Gemstone Mine
4 City of Brass
4 Cephalid Coliseum
2 Undiscovered Paradise

Sideboard: 15
3 Coffin Purge
4 Nature's Claim
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Ray of Revelation
1 Flame-Kin Zealot
1 Ancestor's Chosen
1 Breakthrough
1 Ichorid


So, some reasoning for sideboard choices:
Coffin Purge. There are quite a few decks in my area that game 2 and 3 bring in Surgicals and Extirpates, but no other hate, Purge gives me a little resilience to that, and helps against the random Graveyard decks that pop-up randomly.
Nature's Claim. Self Explanatory.
Ancient Grudge. Again Self Explanatory.
Ray of Revelations. Enchantress is a deck in my meta so having extra post board hate is extremely helpful.
Flame-kin Zealot. For games where I need the extra aggression I drop Iona for another I Win Button.
Ancestor's Chosen. Apparently the majority of my meta is still developing so everyone and their brother is making Burn or other fast decks that become crippled by the insane lifegain Chosen provides, this is also why the maindeck Iona.

Breakthrough and Ichorid, Just so I can still have my four sets AKA space filler for now, I am working on getting new cards for the slots, I actually did pick up Contagion's and am working on Grieselbrands as well.

So yeah, that is what I am currently working with. I do not own LEDs at the moment or they would probably be in the list already. I still am a fan of the more "combo-y" finish with Dread Return in the Main board.

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Without LED's I would suggest you try and run Tireless Tribe. It blocks Goyfs, plays around Surgical Extraction, and is a warm body for Dread Return. Also, I'd suggest you take out the MD Iona and instead add a 2nd Flayer. Board could use Firestorms as well, just my 2 cents :laugh:

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Beatusnox

My Current 75:

Dredgers: 12
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
3 Golgari Thug
1 Darkblast

Gas Spells: 10
4 Careful Study
3 Faithless Looting
3 Breakthrough

Goodstuffs:24
4 Bridge From Below
3 Ichorid
1 Flayer of the Hatebound
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
3 Dread Return
4 Narcomoeba
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Putrid Imp

Lands: 14
4 Gemstone Mine
4 City of Brass
4 Cephalid Coliseum
2 Undiscovered Paradise

Sideboard: 15
3 Coffin Purge
4 Nature's Claim
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Ray of Revelation
1 Flame-Kin Zealot
1 Ancestor's Chosen
1 Breakthrough
1 Ichorid


So, some reasoning for sideboard choices:
Coffin Purge. There are quite a few decks in my area that game 2 and 3 bring in Surgicals and Extirpates, but no other hate, Purge gives me a little resilience to that, and helps against the random Graveyard decks that pop-up randomly.
Nature's Claim. Self Explanatory.
Ancient Grudge. Again Self Explanatory.
Ray of Revelations. Enchantress is a deck in my meta so having extra post board hate is extremely helpful.
Flame-kin Zealot. For games where I need the extra aggression I drop Iona for another I Win Button.
Ancestor's Chosen. Apparently the majority of my meta is still developing so everyone and their brother is making Burn or other fast decks that become crippled by the insane lifegain Chosen provides, this is also why the maindeck Iona.

Breakthrough and Ichorid, Just so I can still have my four sets AKA space filler for now, I am working on getting new cards for the slots, I actually did pick up Contagion's and am working on Grieselbrands as well.

So yeah, that is what I am currently working with. I do not own LEDs at the moment or they would probably be in the list already. I still am a fan of the more "combo-y" finish with Dread Return in the Main board.

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Without LEDs, what are your thoughts on the exclusion of Tireless Tribe? It's incredibly good in non-LED lists.

EDIT: Damn you Sherko and your ninja post!