[Primer] Elves!

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Originally Posted by Julian23

Tammit67: I'm really happy seeing you do so well with the deck. Keep Hoof'ing them! Also props for actually getting there against Miracles with Arbor beatz!

Right now, I am experimenting with -1 Taiga +1 Cavern of Souls. Last tournament it just went ahead and stole 2 games against MonoU Control (with CB) and a guy that kept spamming several Chalices. Of course, having only 1 in the deck is random but (as with Ruric against Storm) it is incredibly impactful in the matchups where you want it (Miracles) while still providing some splash-damage use against about 50% of the field. On the plus side, it still casts Ruric Thar, although it's no longer fetchable of course. The downside is a slightly increased vulnerability to Wasteland (although this is a bit, but surely not completely outweighed by being able to play right into Daze) while also being unbounceable with Quirion Ranger which has been an issue for me during 1 of my matches last weekend.

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I was thinking of subbing the Ruric Thar out for Ezuri, Renegade Leader, as I've been wanting a bomb that is more easily Green Sun's Zenith'd and storm hasn't been as prevalent without me playing it locally. This would let me switch the Taiga for another Bayou as I had originally planned, but I'll have to test cavern... Biggest concern here is when it isn't a forest for Quirion Ranger activations.

I don't particularly like the white splash I see some people still running. Gaddock Teeg is kinda weak as a combo deterrent right now while Qasali Pridemage does little more than abrupt decay. And Gavony Township seems like a terrible inclusion (given my admittedly limited deck experience) since there are so many other good things to do with an extra 1 mana that I don't know when I'm going to find the time to spend 5 mana on an incremental effect. And even if I have that kind of mana lying around, what has gone so wrong that I have nothing else better today yet still have creatures in play from which to benefit?

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Originally Posted by Tammit67

I was thinking of subbing the Ruric Thar out for Ezuri, Renegade Leader, as I've been wanting a bomb that is more easily Green Sun's Zenith'd and storm hasn't been as prevalent without me playing it locally. This would let me switch the Taiga for another Bayou as I had originally planned, but I'll have to test cavern... Biggest concern here is when it isn't a forest for Quirion Ranger activations.

I don't particularly like the white splash I see some people still running. Gaddock Teeg is kinda weak as a combo deterrent right now while Qasali Pridemage does little more than abrupt decay. And Gavony Township seems like a terrible inclusion (given my admittedly limited deck experience) since there are so many other good things to do with an extra 1 mana that I don't know when I'm going to find the time to spend 5 mana on an incremental effect. And even if I have that kind of mana lying around, what has gone so wrong that I have nothing else better today yet still have creatures in play from which to benefit?

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I used Ezuri in the main for a while for that same reason. I suppose you could say it was in place of Ruric Thar, as I hadn't adopted Ruric into the main yet. I kept finding occurrences where it was the mid/late game, I have elves on the field and am in top deck mode, found GSZ but don't have enough for the Hoof kill. I wanted a low cost target that can end a game. Thing is, its situational. I have learned since that I almost would rather have either Visionary or Wirewood from that GSZ to get more cards; but it may only be beneficial if you have one of two best friends already on the field. Then its a numbers game of how many you have left of either in the deck, and how much removal your opponent has left.

Now, in the situation that neither of the best friends are on the field Ezuri is nice if your opponent is in a similar top deck scenario. It did help me end a game or two, but keep in mind I never hit for more than 13 with him. That isn't to bad, but once again if you have the access to more mana it needs to be hoof that comes down. Thing is, in these situations where you do need Ezuri and can't grab big brother Hoof you have to wait to the next turn to use his Overrun. Its bad when your opponent is up on cards and has removal or ways to find it. I really did test Ezuri a lot, and despite serving the purpose I needed him too I just felt he was inconsistent.
A small plus is that an opponent may be holding a counter for the big guy, Ezuri is often forgotten about. So GSZ for 3 (4cc total) could (maybe) fake an opponent out. Wishful thinking most of the time though ;)

Anyway on Meekstone, I've always wanted to try it but I have NO idea what to remove. If its helping out tempo match ups that's enough to make me look into it more.
I would also LOVE to find a way to really use Cavern of Souls effectively, but I think having a land that can't bounce via Quirion is going to hurt more often than the land serves its purpose. Not to mention it can't be fetched as stated, dropping the total amount of lands our fetches have access too.

Fwiw I have only lost one game ever where I resolved a meekstone against rug delver. And I've been playing I my board for about a year now.

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Originally Posted by PendelSteven

so I took out a forest

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... But the funny part is that I also ordered a matching 3rd forest. Since I started when Mirage came out, these are my basic forests:

http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers...3567&type=card
To be fair: I love the waterfall. It helps I'm from the province of Zeeland (which New Zealand is named after). No, we don't have mountains and waterfalls, but water is an element that is highly associated with where I'm from. Actually, my favourite colour in real-life is blue and I do play in blue sleeves, so that matches as well.

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Originally Posted by Chrandersen

Fwiw I have only lost one game ever where I resolved a meekstone against rug delver. And I've been playing I my board for about a year now.

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Well thats worth something haha. I imagine its not limited to just RUG Delver however, right? BUG Delver (TA) perhaps as well? Does it have any merit against the resurgence of Blade decks with True-Name Nemesis? And if that is the case, perhaps UWR running TNN as well?

Maybe worth putting in against Sneak & Show?

Just looking for more MUs than just 1.

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Originally Posted by Chrandersen

Fwiw I have only lost one game ever where I resolved a meekstone against rug delver. And I've been playing I my board for about a year now.

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Good to know. But as Julian's once has said before: we all wish we had a 25 card sideboard.

I guess the choice is between having searchable answers, like ScOoze and well, Ruric Thar (to help against a lethal bolt in your face) against semi-random draws of cards you can't search for qui Meekstone and for example vs Storm Thorn of Amethyst.

Then again, you play with a Regal Force, which helps a lot to draw into a 2-of in a sideboard.

So in a way, I'd advise running 2 Meekstone with a Regal Force maindeck only.

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Originally Posted by yaWgnorW

W Does it have any merit against the resurgence of Blade decks with True-Name Nemesis?

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Now there's an idea. Obviously TNN itself is 3/1, so it won't untap. This also prevents them for attacking succesfully with a Jitte more than once. Wow. Maybe back to the 1 Hoof, 1 Regal plan then. We shouldn't forget our worse matchups though: always be prepared for Miracles and Reanimator...

And while I'm saying this, I'm worried now we will change our deck because of this Merfolk that apparently is changing the metagame then. :-/.

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Originally Posted by yaWgnorW

Maybe worth putting in against Sneak & Show?

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I've thought about that as well. It's actually not bad vs Show and Tell, but it's no use vs Sneak Attack. This said, it can help vs. Tin Fins, I suppose.

Also, I sincerely hope either TNN. Show & Tell or Griselbrand will be banned. Or better yet: all three. If only so we can have a better sideboard...

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Originally Posted by PendelSteven

Now there's an idea. Obviously TNN itself is 3/1, so it won't untap. This also prevents them for attacking succesfully with a Jitte more than once. Wow. Maybe back to the 1 Hoof, 1 Regal plan then. We shouldn't forget our worse matchups though: always be prepared for Miracles and Reanimator.



I've thought about that as well. It's actually not bad vs Show and Tell, but it's no use vs Sneak Attack. This said, it can help vs. Tin Fins, I suppose.

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I think meekstone doesn't do anything against S&T if they attack once with a dude they won the game so sideboarding this effect in is horrible.

Meekstone can also be used vs patriot delver which is a complex match up. Versus any tempo deck, it looks awesome except tempo.decay.dec.

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Originally Posted by Jitse

S&T if they attack once with a dude they won the game .

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That's a rather pessimistic view. I know of games where S&T attacked with a dude where they lost.
Actually, I also know a game won by Elves where the S&T player blocked with his Emrakul and eventually lost (vs Cuneo's Worldspine Wurm). So, okay, if they attack it's a little harder, the point however is not to ever let them attack. Eg. discard spells, ruric thar, thorn of amethyst. 15/15 creatures of your own....

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Originally Posted by Eternal

Meekstone can also be used vs patriot delver which is a complex match up. Versus any tempo deck, it looks awesome except tempo.decay.dec.

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Again: that runs TNN, right? But the real reason I quote you: I presume you mean BUG Delver with tempo.decay.dec?

Also, I saw Andrew Jessup, #13 last SCG Open, run this in his sideboard:
http://magiccards.info/scans/en/cfx/90.jpg

GSZ-able. Now if only TNN would fly... 'Cause it's not that it didn't work in the past: Lukas Maurer piloted an Elves deck to #2 at GP Ghent with one in his sideboard - and 3 Meekstone. Hm.

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Originally Posted by PendelSteven

I presume you mean BUG Delver with tempo.decay.dec?

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Obviously ;)

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Originally Posted by PendelSteven

Lukas Maurer piloted an Elves deck to #2 at GP Ghent with one in his sideboard - and 3 Meekstone. Hm.

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Lukas is a local friend of mine and I got the Pithing Needle technology from him. 3 Meekstone gives me wet dreams of having a pretty decent matchup against Canadian Threshold, but in a world of Abrupt Decay, there's so many cards competing for basically the same thing. I feel if you really want to go 3 Meekstone, you have to cut down to 2 Abrupt Decay as they're basically the same in the Thresh matchup.
This of course hurts your Miracles matchup, but...oh well :cry:

Scattershot Archer is pretty cool, but considering that it also competes with Abrupt Decay and Meekstone, the marginal gain over GSZ=1=DRS is not enough for me. (Although shooting down a Griselbrand is nothing unheared of on my part :laugh:)

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Originally Posted by Julian23

Lukas is a local friend of mine and I got the Pithing Needle technology from him. 3 Meekstone gives me wet dreams of having a pretty decent matchup against Canadian Threshold, but in a world of Abrupt Decay, there's so many cards competing for basically the same thing. I feel if you really want to go 3 Meekstone, you have to cut down to 2 Abrupt Decay as they're basically the same in the Thresh matchup.
This of course hurts your Miracles matchup, but...oh well :cry:

Scattershot Archer is pretty cool, but considering that it also competes with Abrupt Decay and Meekstone, the marginal gain over GSZ=1=DRS is not enough for me. (Although shooting down a Griselbrand is nothing unheared of on my part :laugh:)

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Right now I'm running Needle, however it seems in our 15 its either Needle or Meekstone. I'm actually testing 3 needles right now on MTGO (up one from the two I was running for weeks before). It seems clunky but its been really effective, and is always serving its purpose. There is a surprising amount of relevant MUs needle hits. Then again, the same goes for Meekstone.

I'd love Meekstone to help with some of our bad MUs, but at the same time Needle helps in many of the same (in different ways) and in other MUs. I am comfortable running 3 Abrupt Decay and 6 Discard in the board, and not really looking at dropping them further. That leaves Ooze, NO, Prog.

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Originally Posted by yaWgnorW

I am comfortable running 3 Abrupt Decay and 6 Discard in the board, and not really looking at dropping them further. That leaves Ooze, NO, Prog.

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It should be pointed out that you might opt for a 2 Decay, 1 Harmonic Sliver/Qasali Pridemage/Viridian Shaman split instead of the 3 Decay. Also, I see 4 Discard + 2 Thorn of Amethyst as roughly the same.

But yeah. At least it's:
- 4 Discard
- 2 Decay
- 1 Prog
- 1 NO
and most of us run:
- 1 ScOoze

That leaves about 6 cards up for debate, including highly debated cards like Ruric Thar, Gaddock Teeg, Pithing Needle, Meekstone, Mindbreak Trap and Thorn of Amethyst. Actually, you could throw one of each in and see how that goes :P. Actually, throw the Thar maindeck and add a Worldspine Wurm. Might as well cut a Heritage Druid for an Ezuri as well maindeck and you sort of have the ultimate Elves! deck :P.

New art is terribad. Pass

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Originally Posted by Dice_Box

That said I do have foil Visionaries in my deck. That promo art... I caved.

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You're not the only one.

I actually vote for cutting Ruric Thar in my deck at the moment: a Gaddock Teeg and 2 Thorn of Amethyst should work vs. Storm. This makes room for a card. Perhaps I'll cut another discardspell as well and add 2 Meekstone to see how that rolls.

Then again, I don't play that much and would like to hear results of people thus running:
- a Viridian Shaman and 2 Dryad Arbor maindeck
- 2 Meekstone, 2 Thorn, 1 Gaddock Teeg, 4 Discard spells, 1 NO, 1 Prog, 1 ScOoze, 2 Decay, 1 Pridemage

Now I don't care if you run 4 Cabal Therapy, 4 Thoughtseize or a split. Actually, if you run 3/3 and no Thorns, it's rougly the same build and I would like to know your results of that sideboard. Well, the point is, I want to see a review of a viable sideboard against 90 % of the field.

This seems good vs Miracles, Reanimator, Storm & Delver. Now if only Show & Tell wasn't a problematic matchup :/


Julian, up for trying this build out on stream, so we can view along within a few weeks? You may even run a Pithing Needle or two for the Teeg and Pridemage if you like (since you don't play white) :)

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Originally Posted by PendelSteven

I actually vote for cutting Ruric Thar in my deck at the moment: a Gaddock Teeg and 2 Thorn of Amethyst should work vs. Storm.

It seems good vs Miracles, Reanimator, Storm & Delver. Now if only Show & Tell wasn't a problematic matchup :/

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The value of Ruric completely depends on your Metagame. I got killed by a Round 1, Game 1, Turn 2 Ruric today ... Period xD

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Originally Posted by Lemnear

The value of Ruric completely depends on your Metagame. I got killed by a Round 1, Game 1, Turn 2 Ruric today ... Period xD

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Good point. And given the fact that the decks of my 'local' players (from Ghent and Antwerp that is) that I will likely face I need sollutions to Delver and... High Tide. Thus Gaddock Teeg.

However. I've seen quite a lot of players from Holland running Tin Fins, luckily it's fairly easy to predict where I face them. The Enschede-crew on the other hand seems to prefer fair non-blue decks like Zoo and Maverick. No real problems there :).

Then again, you know? More than half of the opponents you face on a Legacy side-event on a Dutch / Belgian GP are not "local". And to be fair, Enschede (which is Dutch, so am I) is almost as far away from Antwerp as Paris, so what is "local"? I reckon' at the SCG circuit you see grinders that are nearly always there, so they are the "moving locals" there, which makes it still a bit less diverse then these side-events.

But since I know if I'm going to play in Antwerpen in the store there's a fair chance I face Delver and High Tide, those are my first priorities. My next GP-side event will likely be in August, and if I go to any other GP, it's Paris - same story though, only with probably 1800+ players.

Enough posting for the day though. I still haven't read all pages on this topic :) (and to be fair, I might not read anyone of those today either).

Played a small tournament at my LGS today, managed to go 4-0, not droping a single game. Won against Burn, RB Goblins, Death and Taxes and UWR Miracles.

During game 2 against goblins I had a situation I would like to ask what you would do in this situation.

I held a great NO hand on the draw, 3 fetch lands, NO, Nettle Sentinel, Quirion Ranger and Viridian Shaman. My opponent kept his 7. I know he plays 4 Chalice of the Void in his sideboard, 3-4 Pyrokinesis as well as a split of Engineered Plague and Perish. I boarded in the fourth Natural Order, Progenitus, 3 Abrupt Decay and Pithing Needle for 2 Glimpse, 1 Craterhoof, Llanowar Elves, Heritage Druid and Nettle Sentinel (I think, it was a 1-mana creature).

Turn 1: He plays Wasteland, no play. I draw a Heritage Druid, fetch for Forest and Play Nettle Sentinel. If I can hit with it turn 2 and 3 it makes a NO for a lethal Craterhoof easier as well as blocks any future 1/1 my opponent might have.

Turn 2: He plays Wasteland and pass the turn to me once more. I draw Wirewood Symbiote, attack for 2, play fetch and use my forest to play a Quirion Ranger.

Turn 3: He goes straigt to discard, I choose not to fetch, he discards a Goblin Lackey. I draw a Elvish Visionary and starts to think about my turn. What would you do in this situation, knowing most of my opponents sideboard against me.

http://oi43.tinypic.com/20tmd1l.jpg

I made what in hindsight might have been the wrong play, but won the game anyway and started thinking about how I could have played it out differently. How would you have played this turn? And if you would have made another play turn 1-2 please tell me, I would love to see how others would play the same hand.

PS: Sorry for the big grainy picture. Any way to re-size it by editing the post, please send me a PM :)