Re: [DTB] Team America (BUG Delver)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
btm10
This is the biggest reason to keep playing Delver in the deck. The free win rate is just too high with Delver/Wasteland/Daze. I wouldn't even call our tempo plan that poor, and we're an excellent aggressive midrange deck.
Yeah, I was being a little dramatic there for effect, but my over-all point is that we don't have to be great in all the roles we can take to make them worth being taken. The Delver/Wasteland/Daze thing is another reason why I always run the Hymn version. There are times where you Hymn them and just win, hitting two removal spells, or two lands, or their only two real action spells, etc.
I think, more than anything, this deck should strive for flexibility. That being said, I have always liked Tombstalker, mainly for the flying. A flying 5/5 is HUGE in Legacy, nothing short of a Show and Tell, or Reanimator target can match that in the air. The times I don't like him though are versus Miracles. StP isn't really that big a deal, but Venser and Jace are obnoxious.
Re: [DTB] Team America (BUG Delver)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Purgatory
Went with 1 TNN, 1 Tombstalker, and 4-0'd the swiss. Lost in the first elimination round of the T4 however, but had a good time anyway. My MU's were Dredge, Reanimator, Manaless Dredge and Grixis Delver, so I wouldn't call any of the results representative. Lost all game 1's in all matches all day :P
Tombstalker was a house, however. Flying was very relevant in the Grixis match-up. He played Angler and I beat him more or less exclusively thanks to Tombstalker.
Link to my blog post about it. For some reason, the title won't show up on the post. It's not a proper report, but has some cool varaince in it, which happened during the day.
Glad to hear it went well. And that's a LOT of graveyard decks.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
H
Yeah, I was being a little dramatic there for effect, but my over-all point is that we don't have to be great in all the roles we can take to make them worth being taken. The Delver/Wasteland/Daze thing is another reason why I always run the Hymn version. There are times where you Hymn them and just win, hitting two removal spells, or two lands, or their only two real action spells, etc.
I think, more than anything, this deck should strive for flexibility. That being said, I have always liked Tombstalker, mainly for the flying. A flying 5/5 is HUGE in Legacy, nothing short of a Show and Tell, or Reanimator target can match that in the air. The times I don't like him though are versus Miracles. StP isn't really that big a deal, but Venser and Jace are obnoxious.
I agree. I'm still not 100% sure why people are so much keener on Angler than Tombstalker. BB is not really a problem for a deck that's already committed to casting Hymn and Liliana.
Re: [DTB] Team America (BUG Delver)
How do you guys think that the stifle/dark confidant lists fairs now in the current meta?
Re: [DTB] Team America (BUG Delver)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
skyout
How do you guys think that the stifle/dark confidant lists fairs now in the current meta?
As Bob Huang once put it:
"I would say that the blue lists have better mana and are more tempo oriented in nature, whereas the black lists are more Jund-like. The blue lists are better at beating Miracles, but the black lists are better against other fair decks and combo."
I agree with him for the most part, but I think the Liliana/Hymn version is easier to avoid mistakes with.
Re: [DTB] Team America (BUG Delver)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ironclad8690
As Bob Huang once put it:
"I would say that the blue lists have better mana and are more tempo oriented in nature, whereas the black lists are more Jund-like. The blue lists are better at beating Miracles, but the black lists are better against other fair decks and combo."
I agree with him for the most part, but I think the Liliana/Hymn version is easier to avoid mistakes with.
Yup, bobīs statement is 100% true...
Re: [DTB] Team America (BUG Delver)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ironclad8690
As Bob Huang once put it:
"I would say that the blue lists have better mana and are more tempo oriented in nature, whereas the black lists are more Jund-like. The blue lists are better at beating Miracles, but the black lists are better against other fair decks and combo."
I agree with him for the most part, but I think the Liliana/Hymn version is easier to avoid mistakes with.
I mostly agree, but why are the blue lists better at beating Miracles?
The black version has a lot more grinding power and if you are not able to implement your tempo plan with the blue version you are done..
And yeah, I also think it's harder to misplay with the black version.
Re: [DTB] Team America (BUG Delver)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ultraviolent2
I mostly agree, but why are the blue lists better at beating Miracles?
The black version has a lot more grinding power and if you are not able to implement your tempo plan with the blue version you are done..
And yeah, I also think it's harder to misplay with the black version.
Against Miracles, Hymn rapidly loses it's power as the game goes on, which is is very, very likely to do. Past turn 5-6, there simply isn't likely to be much relevant in their hand, so each Hymn drawn is basically dead. Stifle keeps it's utility better over the course of the game because of the Miracle triggers. Also, the 18 Land, Stifle versions then to run 16 creatures, 4 of which are Dark Confidants, which is a great creature to have versus them.
That being said, in the 20 Land, Hymn-Liliana build, having Liliana makes me much more comfortable in the match-up. I refuse to play more than one creature at time, because it just walks you into a Terminus. I made them grind over every single threat, so having a threat that doesn't get hit by Terminus is huge to how I play the deck. This is also a reason why I usually keep a Sylvan Library in the main, to keep a steady stream of threats.
No doubt I play this wrongly, so it is probably true that Hymn-Liliana is less mistake-prone. Stifle has be a tough card to play optimally, you need to know when to hit a fetch and when the mana-denial plan is dead or pointless. I play RUG from time to time, but I'm really not smart enough to articulate or be 100% certain when it's one or the other. I just go with my hunch. That being said, I've never actually played the Stifle TA, but maybe if I can find two more FBB Trops I'll try it out, :tongue:
Re: [DTB] Team America (BUG Delver)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ultraviolent2
I mostly agree, but why are the blue lists better at beating Miracles?
The black version has a lot more grinding power and if you are not able to implement your tempo plan with the blue version you are done..
And yeah, I also think it's harder to misplay with the black version.
Blue is better because you can stifle the miracles trigger.
Re: [DTB] Team America (BUG Delver)
Hey guys I attended the Big Magic Open and Yokohama this weekend (305 players) and being new to the deck would love some(any?) advice you guys can give me about the deck. I am really trying to get better with the deck.
Here is my tournament report:
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/showthread.php?30004-Tournament-Report-for-Big-Magic-Open-5-Yokohama-%28October-11th-2015%29-BUG-Delver&p=909305#post909305/.
I know my question is quite broad but I think at the very least this report will serve to help me and other people with the deck.
EDIT: I realize this post isn't very constructive. I will come back to it today when I get a chance to give it some real thought and add some content.
Re: [DTB] Team America (BUG Delver)
2-2 at my weekly tournament with Stifle version.
Mentor Miracles: 1-2 (I kept Dazes out in game 2 and 3, but he tapped out often, so maybe that was a mistake?)
TES: 2-0 I tempo him out.
Lands (RUG control version): 2-0 TNN is great vs Maze, g2 DRS is super effective and Clique takes him Loam.
Sneak and Show: 1-2: Game 2 I punt because he taps out for Breach when I have him at lethal next turn and I think it is Show and Tell (city of traitors was sacrificed before playing another land, so I thought he still had 2 floating but it was all used up for breach) and I scoop with Daze in hand. He says afterwards he had no countermagic, so I would have won if I had just Dazed. g3 I just draw didly squat while he plays Jace TMS and puts lots of fattys into play over the course of a million turns.
Sneak takes 1st, with Mentor Miracles coming in 2nd and me at 3rd (my game win % was 60%, better than the others), so I think I would have been either 1st or 2nd if I had just won this. Instead, I am an idiot and go home with $10 less in my pocket. I need more practice with this deck.
Re: [DTB] Team America (BUG Delver)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ironclad8690
2-2 at my weekly tournament with Stifle version.
Do you mind posting a list? Curious for your Stifle version.
EDIT: I was wondering, would people in here be willing to see some recorded games and give their opinion? I'm not a great player, but I can record some games on Xmage and post them if people would be willing/interested to watch them and give some advice... They are very active on this in the lands forum and also in the Storm forum with opening hands, maybe we can try to get TA to a higher level as well?
Re: [DTB] Team America (BUG Delver)
I gave this deck a try last Sunday after the dig ban. I got destroyed literally in quarter finals by grixis delver with stifle.
I thought this match up as at least evenish but I had to change my mind after playing against it for the first time in said tournament.
G1
I kept on the draw a hand that can win against wasteland and stifle with 2 tarmos 3 lands 1 ponder and a liliana
I end up losing to a young pyromancer a delver and a deathrtie sharman on his board.
I sb out all FOW the 2 Thoughtseize and all lilianas to add in 2 golgari charm 1 toxic deludge 1 dismember 1 jace 2 disfigure and 1 hymn
G2
I kept a Hand of 3 lands a HYMN a Golari charm a Daze and a Tarmogoyf
I end up loosing to a flipped delver a Deathrite Shaman and a Tasigur
In both games I didnt find any removals with draws and cantrips
This are both list
http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=18336&iddeck=138761
http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=18336&iddeck=138754
How would you have approached the match up?
What did I do wrong?
Re: [DTB] Team America (BUG Delver)
If its really an issue, you can run a hydroblast or jitte
It really depends how your meta is.
OR
you can run that enchantment that does x/-1 to tokens
Re: [DTB] Team America (BUG Delver)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
wwoning
Do you mind posting a list? Curious for your Stifle version.
EDIT: I was wondering, would people in here be willing to see some recorded games and give their opinion? I'm not a great player, but I can record some games on Xmage and post them if people would be willing/interested to watch them and give some advice... They are very active on this in the lands forum and also in the Storm forum with opening hands, maybe we can try to get TA to a higher level as well?
I would be down to watch/record some videos and offer my input, but I would be more interested in what the long-time TA players had to say.
Here is my list:
Creatures:
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Dark Confidant
2 True-Name Nemesis
Spells:
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Daze
4 Abrupt Decay
3 Spell Pierce
3 Stifle
3 Force of Will
Lands:
3 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
4 Wasteland
4 Flooded Strand
4 Polluted Delta
Sideboard:
2 Disfigure
2 Thoughtseize
2 Surgical Extraction
1 Winter Orb
1 Pithing Needle
1 Marsh Casualties
1 Golgari Charm
1 Maelstrom Pulse
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Flusterstorm
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Force of Will
Quote:
Originally Posted by
janluis1
I gave this deck a try last Sunday after the dig ban. I got destroyed literally in quarter finals by grixis delver with stifle.
I thought this match up as at least evenish but I had to change my mind after playing against it for the first time in said tournament.
G1
I kept on the draw a hand that can win against wasteland and stifle with 2 tarmos 3 lands 1 ponder and a liliana
I end up losing to a young pyromancer a delver and a deathrtie sharman on his board.
I sb out all FOW the 2 Thoughtseize and all lilianas to add in 2 golgari charm 1 toxic deludge 1 dismember 1 jace 2 disfigure and 1 hymn
G2
I kept a Hand of 3 lands a HYMN a Golari charm a Daze and a Tarmogoyf
I end up loosing to a flipped delver a Deathrite Shaman and a Tasigur
In both games I didnt find any removals with draws and cantrips
This are both list
http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=18336&iddeck=138761
http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=18336&iddeck=138754
How would you have approached the match up?
What did I do wrong?
Maybe try running Tombstalker over Angler, Tombstalker is both an answer to flipped Delver and a more evasive threat that doesn't care about pyromancer tokens. As with any Delver mirror, the person who can stick the most things to the board unopposed by removal often wins, especially when Deathrite Shaman is involved because of his lavamancer mode.
Last thing: I am trying to put together a collection where I can play any and all versions of TA, how many of each of the following cards are good to have on hand?
Bayou
Liliana of the Veil
Verdant Catacombs
Underground Sea
Re: [DTB] Team America (BUG Delver)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ironclad8690
Last thing: I am trying to put together a collection where I can play any and all versions of TA, how many of each of the following cards are good to have on hand?
Bayou
Liliana of the Veil
Verdant Catacombs
Underground Sea
I've never seen a version run more than two Bayou. Also never seen a version run more than two Liliana. The fetchland configuration doesn't matter much, 4, 4, 1 of whatever combination Misty Rainforest, Polluted Delta and Verdant Catacomb you want. 4 Seas are needed, since our Hymn builds are 4 Seas, 1 Trop, 2 Bayou.
Re: [DTB] Team America (BUG Delver)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
H
I've never seen a version run more than two Bayou. Also never seen a version run more than two Liliana[/B]. The fetchland configuration doesn't matter much, 4, 4, 1 of whatever combination Misty Rainforest, Polluted Delta and Verdant Catacomb you want. 4 Seas are needed, since our Hymn builds are 4 Seas, 1 Trop, 2 Bayou.
http://archive.wizards.com/magic/mag...ppar14/welcome
-Scroll down to a very important bug delver deck (important referring to the deck's history) by Javier Dominguez to see a deck running more then two Liliana's..
Re: [DTB] Team America (BUG Delver)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ryscott85
Wasn't that the guy who turned out to be cheating though? Or was that something different?
Re: [DTB] Team America (BUG Delver)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ironclad8690
Wasn't that the guy who turned out to be cheating though? Or was that something different?
http://archive.wizards.com/Magic/mag...her/021202014B
Re: [DTB] Team America (BUG Delver)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
ironclad8690
Wasn't that the guy who turned out to be cheating though? Or was that something different?
It was a different guy, Javier Dominguez is at a pro level currently.
Re: [DTB] Team America (BUG Delver)
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Manipulato
It was a different guy, Javier Dominguez is at a pro level currently.
No, it was Javier Dominquez.
http://archive.wizards.com/Magic/mag...her/021202014B
