[Deck] Burn

@Neotech
those are good points, which is why I asked the question about it. I re-think B-Ring almost everytime I think about Burn.
To me though, I ave a philosophy with Burn, where I do not want a card in my deck that will be a dead draw. (Obviously, this cannot be 100%) because anytime after three, a mountain -for me- is a dead draw.) But, you need to have (X) amounts of lands, so I do not count lands.
As for creatures, again, in the meta game currently, we need creatures, and most of our creatures are never Dead draws.
When it comes to late game critical situations, if you draw a creature, it can usually save you the game, (if only to block a would be killing creature.)

For Barbarian Ring, I cannot get over drawing it late game when I need a Firebalst, and a mountain to cast it.

For me as well, it is also the same argument against Flame Rift. Flame Rift deals me and my opponent four damage. Barbarian Ring will deal me two damage, before it deals my opponent two damage.

B-Ring works, but it is another Flame Rift philosophy. We either love them or hate them, personally I hate them, but I will still always re-consider them every I go over my deck.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by jares

That's a good list of pros and cons. There might be some minor points that may have been left out, but those are generally the considerations that you would want to look into when considering the meta that you would want to build your deck around.

At the end of the day, the weight of each of these considerations will differ from player to player, and the best we can do is to provide solid reasoning for how we value each of these points regarding Barbarian Ring.

Thanks for obliging.

Cheers,
jares

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Agreed. Nobody can make a card choice for anybody else. We just have to show different perspectives of the choices we have available and hopefully point people in the direction that best fits their play-style and preference.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by iamfrightenedtoo

For me as well, it is also the same argument against Flame Rift. Flame Rift deals me and my opponent four damage. Barbarian Ring will deal me two damage, before it deals my opponent two damage.

B-Ring works, but it is another Flame Rift philosophy. We either love them or hate them, personally I hate them, but I will still always re-consider them every I go over my deck.

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I personally like Flame Rift very much. I've always liked being able to make use of my life total as a resource that can advance my game plan ahead of schedule, somewhat like how Phyrexian Mana has carved its own niche in the general meta. As a former Pox player, I'm sure that you can appreciate what I mean.

All things being considered, though, the inclusion of the card is still a matter of preference plus meta considerations, as the drawbacks of dealing damage to yourself can't be more obvious.

Cheers,
jares

When I played B-Ring in Burn I often found myself holding it like a spell unless I absolutely needed it as a land because I didn't want it getting wasted. Burn can run just fine against most decks with just 2 land, but with just 1 land things get a bit tougher. And if you need to play around things like Daze you really need to hit 3 lands. With Wasteland being so common and Burn having no other targets for it in a deck that tends to have 17-19 lands in the 1st place, it just seems like an unwarranted risk. Now if you wanted to play with a higher number of lands, swapping spells with B-Rings, or if you were playing R/u or R/? for some kind of card draw or non-land mana sources so you could recover if you lost a ring to wasteland that's an option, but then you are not playing Burn anymore anyway.

Hey everyone
I recently competed in legacy for the first time at a local gaming store after playing casually for years. Before everyone tears the decklist apart know that I do realize it contains many suboptimal or unusual choices. Replacements are on the way, which will be discussed at the end. Going into the tournament, I had no idea what decks were being played so I completely guessed on the sideboard.

Original List
Creatures: (13)
3x Jackal Pup
4x Hellspark Elemental
4x Keldon Marauders
1x Ball Lightning
1x Figure of Destiny

Artifacts/Enchantments: (6)
3x Sulfuric Vortex
2x Cursed Scroll
1x Meekstone

Instants/Sorceries: (22)
4x Fireblast
4x Lightning Bolt
4x Rift Bolt
4x Lava Spike
3x Price of Progress
2x Flame Rift
1x Smash to Smithereens

Land: (19)
18x Mountain
1x Barbarian Ring

Sideboard: (15)
4x Pithing Needle
4x Faerie Macabre
3x Red Elemental Blast
1x Pyroblast
1x Grafdigger’s Cage
1x Gorilla Shaman
1x Smash to Smithereens

Local Tournament:
Other Decks:
Combo Elves
RUG Threshold
White Stax
Reanimator
Goblins
UR Delver
BW Deadguy
MonoW Vial Stoneblade (D&T?)
BGW Nic Fit Rock
UGW Blade

Game 1: Combo Elves
Easily summarized, my opponent got nutz hands both games. In addition my decklist does not have any good sideboard options. As a result…
0-2
First time playing combo elves, you can bet I'll be getting some volcanic fallouts

Game 2: RUG Threshold
First game: His fetchlands + PoP = Win (along with 2 recurring hellsparks)
Second game: I kept a bad opening hand that had a flame rift and smash to smithereens. My opponent establishes a tarmogoyf and three flipped delvers and rides them to victory.
Third game: I land a first turn Meekstone and the look on my opponent’s face was priceless. Follow it with a Figure of Destiny and it’s game.

Once again, against all those delvers he managed to draw and early nimble mongoose means I need volcanic fallouts (prefer them since they cannot be countered)

Game 3: White Stax
First game: Turn 1 Trinisphere quickly followed by Batterskull beatdown
Second game: Turn 1 Trinisphere followed by a Chalice of the Void followed by a Batterskull beatdown
0-2 …..I don’t know if my opponent just got really good opening hands or what
I am unfamiliar with stax decks but what are some strategies? My opponent has also been playing an extremely long time so was very experienced piloting it.

With a bye in the fourth round that ended the day at 1-2.
I managed to get in additional games against B/W Deadguy: Unbelievably easy. The only difficulty was a CoP: Red he had one game which can be pithing needled.

Besides reconfiguring the sideboard, these are some changes I'm considering.
-3 Jackal Pup
So many better one drop creatures: Goblin Guide, Grim Lavamancer, Figure of Destiny
-1 Ball Lightning
For being a 1 drop it got pretty extensive testing...all lackluster
-1 Meekstone
Out of maindeck, possible sideboard option
-2 Flame Rift
I understand burn wants to do 20points as fast as possible but the damage I took back just wasn't worth it many times. I don't care if it takes one more turn to secure a win
-1 Smash to Smithereens
Out of maindeck, only time I drew it was against RUG, sideboard option
-1 Barbarian Ring
For some reason 1 drops are attracted to the top of my deck, unfortunately it was barbarian ring...never encountered a situation that made it worth it so it's going for another burn spell

Thanks for any input or constructive criticisms.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by FEELtheBURN

Hey everyone
I recently competed in legacy for the first time at a local gaming store after playing casually for years. Before everyone tears the decklist apart know that I do realize it contains many suboptimal or unusual choices. Replacements are on the way, which will be discussed at the end. Going into the tournament, I had no idea what decks were being played so I completely guessed on the sideboard.

Original List
Creatures: (13)
3x Jackal Pup
4x Hellspark Elemental
4x Keldon Marauders
1x Ball Lightning
1x Figure of Destiny

Artifacts/Enchantments: (6)
3x Sulfuric Vortex
2x Cursed Scroll
1x Meekstone

Instants/Sorceries: (22)
4x Fireblast
4x Lightning Bolt
4x Rift Bolt
4x Lava Spike
3x Price of Progress
2x Flame Rift
1x Smash to Smithereens

Land: (19)
18x Mountain
1x Barbarian Ring

Sideboard: (15)
4x Pithing Needle
4x Faerie Macabre
3x Red Elemental Blast
1x Pyroblast
1x Grafdigger’s Cage
1x Gorilla Shaman
1x Smash to Smithereens

Local Tournament:
Other Decks:
Combo Elves
RUG Threshold
White Stax
Reanimator
Goblins
UR Delver
BW Deadguy
MonoW Vial Stoneblade (D&T?)
BGW Nic Fit Rock
UGW Blade

Game 1: Combo Elves
Easily summarized, my opponent got nutz hands both games. In addition my decklist does not have any good sideboard options. As a result…
0-2
First time playing combo elves, you can bet I'll be getting some volcanic fallouts

Game 2: RUG Threshold
First game: His fetchlands + PoP = Win (along with 2 recurring hellsparks)
Second game: I kept a bad opening hand that had a flame rift and smash to smithereens. My opponent establishes a tarmogoyf and three flipped delvers and rides them to victory.
Third game: I land a first turn Meekstone and the look on my opponent’s face was priceless. Follow it with a Figure of Destiny and it’s game.

Once again, against all those delvers he managed to draw and early nimble mongoose means I need volcanic fallouts (prefer them since they cannot be countered)

Game 3: White Stax
First game: Turn 1 Trinisphere quickly followed by Batterskull beatdown
Second game: Turn 1 Trinisphere followed by a Chalice of the Void followed by a Batterskull beatdown
0-2 …..I don’t know if my opponent just got really good opening hands or what
I am unfamiliar with stax decks but what are some strategies? My opponent has also been playing an extremely long time so was very experienced piloting it.

With a bye in the fourth round that ended the day at 1-2.
I managed to get in additional games against B/W Deadguy: Unbelievably easy. The only difficulty was a CoP: Red he had one game which can be pithing needled.

Besides reconfiguring the sideboard, these are some changes I'm considering.
-3 Jackal Pup
So many better one drop creatures: Goblin Guide, Grim Lavamancer, Figure of Destiny
-1 Ball Lightning
For being a 1 drop it got pretty extensive testing...all lackluster
-1 Meekstone
Out of maindeck, possible sideboard option
-2 Flame Rift
I understand burn wants to do 20points as fast as possible but the damage I took back just wasn't worth it many times. I don't care if it takes one more turn to secure a win
-1 Smash to Smithereens
Out of maindeck, only time I drew it was against RUG, sideboard option
-1 Barbarian Ring
For some reason 1 drops are attracted to the top of my deck, unfortunately it was barbarian ring...never encountered a situation that made it worth it so it's going for another burn spell

Thanks for any input or constructive criticisms.

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-3 pups
-1 ball lightning

+4 goblin guides i love these little guys i dont know why but hasted 2/2 it pretty smexy

-1 meekstone
-2 cursed scrolls idk how good these were for you but they just seem slow to me im sure others can give better reasoning then I :laugh:

+3 lava mancer or figures personally ive been testing the mancer an sometimes he gets their while other times hes just lack luster. So maybe figures are prolly better so test both an see what you like best.

On flame rift sometimes that one turn can mean your death in the end burn wants to kill asap before your opponents beat you by board position though sometimes the flame rift might be your doom but ill take that chance to have a faster clock. Also how good have the vortexs been for you in the main ive seen ppl run them in the side/main wondering which was preferred as well as match ups.

I understand every deck runs goblin guide with success, I'm still trying to figure out why.
1 Red mana for a 2/2 with haste is a steal but has the land effect ever come back to bite anyone?
I was able to get some extra games against RUG and lands provided me the win when his three delvers did not flip for 2 turns or so. Part luck but still noticeable. I feel like the times they do get land its worth taking two damage. I'll definitely do some playtesting though...how are they when drawn after the first 3 turns?

-1 Meekstone I agree
-2 Cursed Scroll
The repeatable use is amazing if the game goes a little longer than expected. The mana activation price may seem steep, but when holding on to an extra land or something with no burn spells it seems like card advantage. Its biggest use is against those small critters with protection (like white). Definitely keeping them.

Grim Lavamancer and Figure of Destiny
I will be playing a total of 3 each to see how it performs. The Grim Lavamancer is like a quicker cursed scroll and helps round out my 1 drop permanents. Only played one Figure of Destiny but I can tell I'll need 2 more. Once again it comes down to the game lasting the extra turn or so with no cards/unlucky topdeck mode. I never got him and was unhappy...maybe sideboard out against fast/non-interactive combo decks. Other than that I cannot think of a time he would not be useful. Each of these creatures is great on its own which is why i feel they need to be included. (I understand this is a meta/personal preference call)

Flame Rift...whatever works for you but my playstyle wasn't diggin it

3 Sulfuric Vortex
I never seem to draw these enough, seeing it appear in the occasional game even though there are three. The main reason for maindecking these is the abundance of Blade decks that are in my area. Any life gain can be detrimental to a burn gameplan so an unanswered batterskull or jitte can be game ending while kitchen finks is straight up annoying. Otherwise it's a great third turn drop to keep the moment going. It may not always do the most damage but it's a clock usually in the burn player's favor. Otherwise it's great to bait out counterspells to get those fireblasts through, etc.
At the very least, I would put 2-3 in the sideboard if you are not as big a fan.

I have 3 chain lightning on the way (still looking for the fourth) with the figures and lavamancers and sideboard cards like volcanic fallout and pyrostatic pillar. These should really help take the deck to the next level.
Just for the record: Jackal Pups really aren't a bad card, it's just that in legacy there are so many better options.

@NeoTech (#2003 and others) Thanks for the warm welcome and thoughtful suggestions. All of the cards you brought up are A-list choices but I didn’t include them for the simple reason that I didn’t own them at the time. Two Rings are a classic auto-include and are now available for my deck/sideboard. Only the threshold exception (and the threat of Wasteland,) keeps it from being a mainboard all the time. I haven’t seen a lot of Thalias or Mothers, but those are good points to watch for. (Post #2059 was MOST helpful.) The Spikes replaced a mountain, a Marauder and the Fallouts as you proposed. Lavamancers are problematic in my mind. When I’ve tried them in the past a few times in causal and they seemed kind of slow and really never got tucked in like I had hoped. As has been previously mentioned, like Rings I think they work best with fetchlands and I think that dilutes the one-sided effectiveness of the Prices. They’re both definitely still in my B-List. Switching Flame Rifts for Jets is my only serious hesitation as I really like the Jets for the Library manipulation, but with fewer lands, and thus a decreased chance of pockets, Rifts might be more viable. (Post #2061 echoes my feelings. I guess I’m not experienced enough to have a solid opinion of my own yet.) It’s more of an operator error thing at this point.

@Goblinlacky and FEELtheBURN-(#2027&2065) It seems a lot of us troglodytes are coming out of our caves. I have to admit, it’s a little strange diving back in after so long. I quit playing competitively back when they stopped letting you play all your cards. In hindsight, I totally understand it was a necessary move that allowed Wizards to stay in business, but at the time it seemed like a real slap in the face. Many of us felt that after supporting the game and spending a small fortune, it was wrong to limit what you could bring to the table. The Legacy format didn’t start until sometime in 2004 and just seemed like ‘spin’ at the time. By that time a lot of good players had left in contempt. Those were dark times, but the game survived and was ultimately made stronger by it. I’m still impressed by its ever increasing popularity.

Back on topic, having read all 2000+ posts on this thread, I’ve come to the conclusion that we’ve pretty thoroughly identified all the definitive core cards, and the remaining choice or two are just a matter of local Meta and personal taste and/or playstyle. Unless upcoming sets produce cards equal or better than the existent ones, this debate seems pretty much over to me. I don’t see any trend from Wizards towards power creeping burn. (Creatures are a different story.) Rotating out a couple of the least optimum cards to avoid playing a cookie cutter deck is fine, but not worth arguing/flaming over. I still see some room as to proving what ones actually work best in concert together. I am learning a great deal from this thread about the changing hate threats, different Sideboard options to combat them and the relative effectiveness those lifelines have.

Wow! 555 words and nothing really helpful, original or even terribly relevant to say. Thank Ghod I’m still handsome….

@FEELtheBURN:
Goblin Guide fuels a significantly more explosive Price of Progress, IF they run primarily non-basics. {Huh? in Legacy?}

2 Jackals got put in the Fire and Lightning deck, and for years it was an auto-include but its been obsolesed and there were a lot of other sub optimal cards in there as well (for actual Burn.) Wizards LOVES to throw junk in pre-mades as part of its 'allow the player to feel good about themselves by identifying the bad cards' policy. (This explains why the neo-'Lucky Charms' keep showing up in base sets. One more Angel Feather and I'm going to scream.) Plus it forces you to buy upgrades and they are in the business of selling cards. Can you imagine the outrage if a scrub were to pilot a stock storebought deck to the top of the Nationals... It did allow me to me foil out my deck alot cheaper with some of the reprints however.

My 'traditional' background made me want to include Meekstones early on as well, it seemed to be a no-brainer in what is by definition a creatureless deck, but the look on their faces is not worth the tempo loss/bad topdeck. (Okay, maybe once.) I did have it in my sideboard for a while. The problem is, even if you go long, I've observed too much Art hate lately. But you've already noted this. If we were surfers, we'd be the longboard guys...

Grimmy and FoD a both great creatures in other decks, but they were brought up and beat to death about 1500 posts ago... I (irrationally) still like Spark Elemental, but the prevaling opinion is that Hellspark is better due to it's recursion option. (But it costs TWO!)

Lifegain is almost universally sneered at around my neck of the woods, but if that changes, I've been wondering about including Everlasting Torment. It kills lifegain, stops damage prevention (Bye bye Witchbane, Leyline, Shroud, Hexproof, That Smug White Player, etc.) and makes your temporary creatures (Hellspark, Marauders) do lasting, permanent hurt to your opponent's creatures. I must be missing something REALLY obvious as I've never seen the card mentioned even once here and I can't imagine I've come up with something useful all on my own.

Opinions seem mixed on Sweepers like Fallout and Flamebreak, but against certain archetypes, they're priceless. As to which one is better, well, Burn seems like a deck were decimal places mean the difference between sucess and failure.

Gotta go, I can hear the Flame Bombers coming over the horizon...

Completely overlooked the synergy between goblin guide and price of progress. I will have to pick up some goblins and one more PoP to try it out.
I understand many of the burn cards have been beat to death in this discussion. I just wanted to try a few odd choices to stray from the cookiecutter list, but more playtesting is only getting it closer (hard to beat the most efficient red cards already named in the format).
The main idea of posting my own experiences and meta is in hopes of not necessarily finding new card choices, but to list my own development of the deck as I become more familiar with it in a competitive environment and what strategies work against other decks. Not every game will consist of emptying your hand at the opponent as fast as possible (though it does work in many instances)
For example, without any sweepers trying to kill the most important elves in combo elves and what to do against first turn trinispheres.
Everlasting Torment is nice, but for the mana cost I imagine the damage from sulfuric vortex will be helpful in more situations than the prevention from torment. It seems more like a sideboard option which is precious space. Definitely has a lot of potential against white though so I may have to try them out just to know...I just haven't faced enough protection I guess.

Well this is my first post here.

I got back into playing when Zendikar came out, and while I was very leery of legacy at first I have grown to love this format.

Recently I went 6-3 with Burn at the Legacy GP in Indy.

Now I was going in to this tournament with 3 byes. Also on the drive down to Indy I was set on either playing Dredge, Zoo or Affinity. I had played Dredge in a local tournament the night before we left and I wasn't really comfortable playing it so it was a distant 3rd. I was planning to play affinity in a grinder and see how it works. It didn't and I really didn't want to play Zoo.

So the night before the GP I was deckless.

friends recommended I sleeve up Burn. one recommended burn with a splash of Blue for Snapcaster and Delver. I like it but I really wanted to just keep things in red. Here is the deck I registered and sleeved up after running around and buying 18 mountains that were all the same. Since I didn't bring basic land with me.

Creatures:
4 Goblin Guide
4 Hellspark Elemental
4 Keldon Marauders

Instants:
4 Fireblast
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Price of Progress

Sorceries:
4 Chain Lightning
4 Flame Rift
4 Lava spike
4 Rift Bolt

Lands:
2 Barbarian Ring
18 Mountain

SB:
4 Leyline of the Void
2 Smash to Smithereens
4 Red Elemental Blast
2 Sulfuric Vortex
3 Pyrostatic Pillar

Needless to say during the first 2 rounds I played against a friend who was playing RUG Delver. I went 0-8 during that time. I wasn't all that confident after that.

Round 4 - Rob

I sat down across from my opponent and I don't remember this match up other then he was playing RUG Delver. I won in 2 quick games.

Round 5 - Charlie

He was playing enchantress and I again won in 2 quick games. I remember playing through some lock cards that didn't allow me to target him. Game 2 I remember there was a time where he could have paid a cumulative upkeep on I think it was Energy Storm and choose not to in order to play other stuff. That gave me a one turn window and his life dropped from 9 to 0.

Round 6 - Mary Jacobson

This round bugs me the most. because I got my first ever Game loss during a deck check. What happened is simple I bought a pack of sleeves that came packaged as 2 sets of 40 sleeves. I opened one pack and sleeved up all my cards that were nicely sorted from writing out my deck list. Then I ran around finding my mountains and sleeved them up in the other pack of sleeves. During this deck check Judges discovered that the sides of the sleeves were visably different. I appealed on the basis that it was an honest mistake and still got the game loss. Mary was playing Zoo and I was on tilt. I lost. ohhh well.

5-1

Round 7 - Greg

He is playing U/W Stoneblade and I win game one. I didn't catch on that he didn't play a single counterspell the whole of game one. I have red elemental blasts and other stuff in the deck and less burn and reach. I loose game 2 to a bunch of Ethersworn canonists, Thalias and other white stuff. Still on tilt from round 6 I don't change my board and loose the game with him on 4 life and me with 2 red elemental blasts in my hand. at one point he was at 1 and I had a red elemental blast in my hand.

Round 8 - Chris

Esper Stoneblade. fun. I loose game 1 to a Umezawa's Jitte. Game 2 I manage to get there even though the Jitte hits the table. I vow not to let a creature attack and do damage with it attached. That’s how I also manage to take game 3 as well. Even though I had Smash to Smithereens I wish I had more.

Round 9 - Alex

Reanimator. I lose to turn 2 Iona naming red game 1. I hate this match up. I side in the 4 leylines of the void. I draw my 7. No leyline, draw my 6 no leyline. Same for 5, 4, 3, 2, and 1. I keep. he show and tells Iona turn 4 and that is that.

Cards I liked:

Price of Progress, such a blow out sometimes.

Hellspark Elemental, Unearth can't be countered and if it is stifled you just do it again next turn.
Instant speed burn, being able to pass the turn and burn them at the end of their turn is great.

Things I disliked:

Leyline of the Void - OK I only had one match up where I needed it but it was an either have it in the opener or it's a dead card. I'd rather start trying out some of the other graveyard hate.

Keldon Marauders - 2 damage for 2 mana is terrible. often when I played this guy turn 2 they'd have a bigger blocker out before I could swing turn 3. Sometimes he'd get in for 5 damage. but I felt like if late game I drew this guy I was drawing dead. If he came with haste he'd be OK, otherwise I'd like to have more burn or Figure of Destiny in this slot to try out.

Smash to Smithereens - This is here because I wasn't playing enough of them. I should have had more. and maybe a few main deck there are so many artifacts to kill.

Red Elemental Blast - Why am I trying to win a counter spell war? Sure it deals with problematic permanents, but if they are playing blue they are probably ready for that with counterspell backup.


Right now the deck looks like:

Creatures:
4 Goblin Guide
4 Hellspark Elemental
4 Keldon Marauders (I'm open to suggestions)

Instants:
4 Fireblast
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Price of Progress

Sorceries:
4 Chain Lightning
4 Flame Rift
4 Lava Spike
4 Rift Bolt

SB:
4 Faerie Macabre
2 Phyrexian Metamorph (a Great answer to Iona on red)
2 Pyrostatic Pillar
3 Sulfuric Vortex
4 Smash to Smithereens

I'm open to suggestions as to what to try out.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by FEELtheBURN

Completely overlooked the synergy between goblin guide and price of progress. I will have to pick up some goblins and one more PoP to try it out.
I understand many of the burn cards have been beat to death in this discussion. I just wanted to try a few odd choices to stray from the cookiecutter list, but more playtesting is only getting it closer (hard to beat the most efficient red cards already named in the format).
The main idea of posting my own experiences and meta is in hopes of not necessarily finding new card choices, but to list my own development of the deck as I become more familiar with it in a competitive environment and what strategies work against other decks. Not every game will consist of emptying your hand at the opponent as fast as possible (though it does work in many instances)
For example, without any sweepers trying to kill the most important elves in combo elves and what to do against first turn trinispheres.
Everlasting Torment is nice, but for the mana cost I imagine the damage from sulfuric vortex will be helpful in more situations than the prevention from torment. It seems more like a sideboard option which is precious space. Definitely has a lot of potential against white though so I may have to try them out just to know...I just haven't faced enough protection I guess.

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I also like viewing Goblin Guide's ability as a free "peek" into the opponent's eventual hand. I really find it as a bonus rather than a drawback, given that Burn is designed to have as little interaction with your opponent's cards as possible.

As for all the other stuff going on, I'm sure you'll discover what works for you sooner or later. You can refer to the several successful builds that have been posted here as reference.

Good luck with the deck building!

Cheers,
jares

Quote:

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Originally Posted by gatherer

Right now the deck looks like:

Creatures:
4 Goblin Guide
4 Hellspark Elemental
4 Keldon Marauders (I'm open to suggestions)

Instants:
4 Fireblast
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Price of Progress

Sorceries:
4 Chain Lightning
4 Flame Rift
4 Lava Spike
4 Rift Bolt

SB:
4 Faerie Macabre
2 Phyrexian Metamorph (a Great answer to Iona on red)
2 Pyrostatic Pillar
3 Sulfuric Vortex
4 Smash to Smithereens

I'm open to suggestions as to what to try out.

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I have the same thoughts about Keldon Marauders, but I don't think that we have better choices than that. Maybe you could try the following:

• [-1] Keldon Marauders
• [-1] Hellspark Elemental
• [+2] Figure of Destiny

This suggested configuration gives you two more 1-CC drops, while also balancing the probability that you'll draw too many of these 2-cost cards that could affect your desired tempo. Figure of Destiny also gives you options in the mid-game (being a potential 4/4 creature). If you like Hellspark Elemental better, you could probably go with only [2x] Keldon Marauders.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by gatherer

Red Elemental Blast - Why am I trying to win a counter spell war? Sure it deals with problematic permanents, but if they are playing blue they are probably ready for that with counterspell backup.

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I've noticed that Vexing Shusher has rarely been mentioned recently, but I'd like to note that I've been using it in my sideboard ever since I started playing Burn, and it has been very good to me so far. That might be another sideboard option that could help someone else - if you want to win a counterspell war, then making your spells uncounterable is probably the best way to go about it.

Cheers,
jares

I flamed out of the Indy GP with Burn, but my first match was a good RUG Delver/Counterbalance player. With Goblin Guide I was able to beat the player, decently easily, even though he resolved a Counterbalance in two games against me.

The games might have been different obviously if he had resolved a Divining Top. He didn't, and I was able to use G-Guide to manipulate his Counterbalance.

also I vote to change the name of Burn to Punt Red, or 3 And Out.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by iamfrightenedtoo

I flamed out of the Indy GP with Burn, but my first match was a good RUG Delver/Counterbalance player. With Goblin Guide I was able to beat the player, decently easily, even though he resolved a Counterbalance in two games against me.

The games might have been different obviously if he had resolved a Divining Top. He didn't, and I was able to use G-Guide to manipulate his Counterbalance.

also I vote to change the name of Burn to Punt Red, or 3 And Out.

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May we ask for the list that you played?

I doubt that the name of this archetype will ever be changed - Burn is just too descriptive of what the deck does and tries to achieve.

Cheers,
jares

@gatherer
I don't know how many games you have played with burn because it is hard to tell which cards you like and which not after some few rounds.
I agree on the Leyline. It is not a good card here and the faerie is a lot better.
But I strongly disagree on the Marauders. CC2 3/3 and 2-5 damage is very good and I like this card very much. Even if you draw it in the lategame you can deal 2 damage at least and slow down you opponent because you've got this 3/3 blocker/attacker.

"Burn" should stay "Burn" :tongue:
B rutal
U ltra
R ed
N emesis

@CabalTherapy

I have played burn at LGS events a lot but I do admit part of my down fall at GP indy was the lack of practice, the deck had been sidelined recently.

As for Keldon Marauders, when I mentioned it just seemed underwhelming it was because most of the time it was 2 damage for 2 mana and generally prevented a hit to me from a Goyf or something similar. I feel with the deck if I start playing on the defensive I've lost the game. Yes I will admit sometimes the Marauders were great at 5 damage for 2 mana.

But I brought up mana cost and result for the simple reason that I think burn's cards should be mana efficient. a bolt is 3 damage for 1 mana, same with chain lightning, rift bolt, Lava spike. Hellspark elemental at the minimum is 3 damage for 2 mana and can quite often be 6 damage for 4 mana. The value of Price changes with what your opponent is playing. Goblin guide is the same way, if they drop an early blocker it might just be a 2 damage for 1 mana creature. If they don't it can do all the heavy lifting.

I just don't see Keldon Marauders as efficient enough. However it is still in my deck at the moment because I haven't figured out something that is better. I guess it is all about personal taste.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by gatherer

@CabalTherapy

I have played burn at LGS events a lot but I do admit part of my down fall at GP indy was the lack of practice, the deck had been sidelined recently.

As for Keldon Marauders, when I mentioned it just seemed underwhelming it was because most of the time it was 2 damage for 2 mana and generally prevented a hit to me from a Goyf or something similar. I feel with the deck if I start playing on the defensive I've lost the game. Yes I will admit sometimes the Marauders were great at 5 damage for 2 mana.

But I brought up mana cost and result for the simple reason that I think burn's cards should be mana efficient. a bolt is 3 damage for 1 mana, same with chain lightning, rift bolt, Lava spike. Hellspark elemental at the minimum is 3 damage for 2 mana and can quite often be 6 damage for 4 mana. The value of Price changes with what your opponent is playing. Goblin guide is the same way, if they drop an early blocker it might just be a 2 damage for 1 mana creature. If they don't it can do all the heavy lifting.

I just don't see Keldon Marauders as efficient enough. However it is still in my deck at the moment because I haven't figured out something that is better. I guess it is all about personal taste.

---

In my opinion, I think that if there was a choice to replace Keldon Marauders with it would have to be Sulfuric Vortex. With life gain being the optimal way of combating Burn, via Jitte, Batterskull, Warmth, and Kichen Finks. Sulfuric Vortex allows for us null their life gain solution and keep up our tempo with reccuring damage.

Though I myself have not implimented this change, it has been something on my mind. I think that everybody is in agreement that if there was a card slot to be changed, Keldon Marauder's would be it, and it is just a difficult choice to make because he has proven to be quite the useful 2 drop creature from time to time.

my list usually is
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Rift Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Lava Spike
4 Price of Progress
4 Fireblast
2 Sulfuric Vortex
4 Golbin Guide
3 Figure of Destiny
2 Grim Lavamancer
4 Hellspark Elemental
4 Keldon Marauders
17 Mountain
Sideboard
4 Faerie Macabre
4 Mindbreak Trap
2 Anarchy
2 Cave-In
3 Shattering Spree

however my group convinced me to go with Fetch lands and two Taigas so I could splash Green in my sideboard to handle Batterskul and Counterbalance.
I have never had a problem against Batterskull, ever, but I wanted to try something a little new, and I changed.
everything was the same except for
-1 Keldon Marauders
-1 Fireblast
-10 Mountain

+1 Ancient Grudge
+1 Taiga
+ 8 Fetch
+1 Taiga

My sideboard altered as well
-2 Cave-In
-3 Shattering Spree
-2 Anarchy

+2 Ancient Grudge
+2 Krosan Grip
+3 (I cant even remember the junk here. never used it)

The idea was noble, I expected a ton of variants of Maverick, and Stoneforge.
I played one Stoneforge, and that was it.

I won Match one 2-1 against RUG Delver/Counterbalance, Wizards Awarded me that tough match-up with Reanimator in round two.

Round two
Reanimator
game one turn two Iona - Punt. game two, turn two Iona in yard, Macabre. I was able to get him to 3 before he Show'd (whatever creature redirects damage from player to it.) I Fireblasted twice, to get it off the board, I still had two lands left..... --Right here was the mistake, I had no other cards in hand. I should have waited a turn, to draw more damage cards, because next turn he reanimated Sphinx of Steel wind, and I was not able to get there.

Round three
Dredge
I don't know, I was given 5 turns in Two games, usual stupidity from Dredge.
Game one, two turns, Dredge just does what it does. I stalled him out with Macabre in game two, I Macabred two early Dredge targets, and a Flame-Kin Zealot he went off, and attacked next turn for win. (If I would have had my sideboard, I would have had Cave-in, and had at least another turn (theoretically if I drew it.)

Round four
MUD
Game one, was close, real Close. He eventually got two Worm-Coil Engine, could not handle it.
game two.
Turn one Chalice for one, turn two Chalice for two, turn 3 Worm-Coil Engine. Now this is where it gets shifty. I drew two Ancient Grudges, and a Krosan Grip. These if it was my sideboard, and I drew them, would have been Shattering Spree. Shattering Spree would have won it for me.

Round five
Affinity
I thought this was going to be game over for him. Thought I was going to right the ship. I was already out of contention for day two, but I play for points, I have no shame.
Game one, I do not know what went wrong, but my maindeck Ancient Grudge actually saved me by getting rid of a Plating. great, but not great because it hit the board turn one, on his second turn he dropped an Etched champion, I wasnt scared, because I knew I could race him, his second Plating was also killed by my Graveyard Ancient Grudge. I needed 5-6 turns to win, when I calculated the math on turn 3, his third Plating gave him a quicker clock.
game two.
more of the same, except by turn three, he had three Etched Champions in play, He was at critical damage, but when I needed one more turn to kill him, he dropped two plantings on the board same turn, and equipped them...... you get the rest.

Round six.
I am 1-4 at this point, and extremely pissed. (Not so much pissed, more shell shocked.)
Stoneforge variant.
game one, I had the biggest brain fart I have ever had. I was battling, Usually Stoneforge is a joke for me. I honestly get excited to play against Stoneforge, and Maverick.
So were gong at it back and forth, one turn three I get Sulfuric Vortex. I know he cannot get rid of it, I know I have the match. He casts Jitte. and attacks, cool don't care. he gets another attack in and passes turn. I draw Ancient Grudge, I go to cast it, and notice my Vortex. (Now in my head, I think He cannot gain life. So I do not care about Jitte. I only need two turns at this point to get him. He needed at least three. so I let the Jitte go, Burn Burn pass. he removes four counters from Jitte, and gets there. No clue what happened to my brain that I forgot/didn't care about the pump ability on Jitte, it happened I was already on tilt from the previous four matches, whatever congratulations game two.
Game two: I don't know, he got the god Stoneforge hand. I had to mull twice, and still had nothing.

Round Seven
I got there in round seven, because my opponent didn't. (I have been working on a report to my experiences with this as the title...)
My opponent no show'd, I got the win...

Round Eight:
Burn
Game one:
I enjoyed the match, but I could tell the kid did not play Burn all that much.
Easily took game one, thanks to him playing B-ring and Flamerift. he did 10 damage to himself while only doing 8 to me on turn three.

Game two:
He won the Goldfish war. it was close, but he got there.

Game three: same as game one, he did as much damage to himself as he did to me, we were both at 4, I had the Fireblast, he didn't.

at this point all but three out of 12 of my fellow local players were out of contention for day two. . My group was getting hungry, and annoyed, we bounced.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by iamfrightenedtoo

my list usually is
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Rift Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Lava Spike
4 Price of Progress
4 Fireblast
2 Sulfuric Vortex
4 Golbin Guide
3 Figure of Destiny
2 Grim Lavamancer
4 Hellspark Elemental
4 Keldon Marauders
17 Mountain
Sideboard
4 Faerie Macabre
4 Mindbreak Trap
2 Anarchy
2 Cave-In
3 Shattering Spree

however my group convinced me to go with Fetch lands and two Taigas so I could splash Green in my sideboard to handle Batterskul and Counterbalance.
I have never had a problem against Batterskull, ever, but I wanted to try something a little new, and I changed.
everything was the same except for
-1 Keldon Marauders
-1 Fireblast
-10 Mountain

+1 Ancient Grudge
+1 Taiga
+ 8 Fetch
+1 Taiga

My sideboard altered as well
-2 Cave-In
-3 Shattering Spree
-2 Anarchy

+2 Ancient Grudge
+2 Krosan Grip
+3 (I cant even remember the junk here. never used it)

The idea was noble, I expected a ton of variants of Maverick, and Stoneforge.
I played one Stoneforge, and that was it.

I won Match one 2-1 against RUG Delver/Counterbalance, Wizards Awarded me that tough match-up with Reanimator in round two.

Round two
Reanimator
game one turn two Iona - Punt. game two, turn two Iona in yard, Macabre. I was able to get him to 3 before he Show'd (whatever creature redirects damage from player to it.) I Fireblasted twice, to get it off the board, I still had two lands left..... --Right here was the mistake, I had no other cards in hand. I should have waited a turn, to draw more damage cards, because next turn he reanimated Sphinx of Steel wind, and I was not able to get there.

Round three
Dredge
I don't know, I was given 5 turns in Two games, usual stupidity from Dredge.
Game one, two turns, Dredge just does what it does. I stalled him out with Macabre in game two, I Macabred two early Dredge targets, and a Flame-Kin Zealot he went off, and attacked next turn for win. (If I would have had my sideboard, I would have had Cave-in, and had at least another turn (theoretically if I drew it.)

Round four
MUD
Game one, was close, real Close. He eventually got two Worm-Coil Engine, could not handle it.
game two.
Turn one Chalice for one, turn two Chalice for two, turn 3 Worm-Coil Engine. Now this is where it gets shifty. I drew two Ancient Grudges, and a Krosan Grip. These if it was my sideboard, and I drew them, would have been Shattering Spree. Shattering Spree would have won it for me.

Round five
Affinity
I thought this was going to be game over for him. Thought I was going to right the ship. I was already out of contention for day two, but I play for points, I have no shame.
Game one, I do not know what went wrong, but my maindeck Ancient Grudge actually saved me by getting rid of a Plating. great, but not great because it hit the board turn one, on his second turn he dropped an Etched champion, I wasnt scared, because I knew I could race him, his second Plating was also killed by my Graveyard Ancient Grudge. I needed 5-6 turns to win, when I calculated the math on turn 3, his third Plating gave him a quicker clock.
game two.
more of the same, except by turn three, he had three Etched Champions in play, He was at critical damage, but when I needed one more turn to kill him, he dropped two plantings on the board same turn, and equipped them...... you get the rest.

Round six.
I am 1-4 at this point, and extremely pissed. (Not so much pissed, more shell shocked.)
Stoneforge variant.
game one, I had the biggest brain fart I have ever had. I was battling, Usually Stoneforge is a joke for me. I honestly get excited to play against Stoneforge, and Maverick.
So were gong at it back and forth, one turn three I get Sulfuric Vortex. I know he cannot get rid of it, I know I have the match. He casts Jitte. and attacks, cool don't care. he gets another attack in and passes turn. I draw Ancient Grudge, I go to cast it, and notice my Vortex. (Now in my head, I think He cannot gain life. So I do not care about Jitte. I only need two turns at this point to get him. He needed at least three. so I let the Jitte go, Burn Burn pass. he removes four counters from Jitte, and gets there. No clue what happened to my brain that I forgot/didn't care about the pump ability on Jitte, it happened I was already on tilt from the previous four matches, whatever congratulations game two.
Game two: I don't know, he got the god Stoneforge hand. I had to mull twice, and still had nothing.

Round Seven
I got there in round seven, because my opponent didn't. (I have been working on a report to my experiences with this as the title...)
My opponent no show'd, I got the win...

Round Eight:
Burn
Game one:
I enjoyed the match, but I could tell the kid did not play Burn all that much.
Easily took game one, thanks to him playing B-ring and Flamerift. he did 10 damage to himself while only doing 8 to me on turn three.

Game two:
He won the Goldfish war. it was close, but he got there.

Game three: same as game one, he did as much damage to himself as he did to me, we were both at 4, I had the Fireblast, he didn't.

at this point all but three out of 12 of my fellow local players were out of contention for day two. . My group was getting hungry, and annoyed, we bounced.

---

Hey Frightened. I am very curious if you felt the splash of green helped the deck play out in any way, or do you think the changes hurt you in the long run? Ancient Grudge does seem like an excellent 1 of main deck if you have the splash green, I am only worried if it is worth it, or if a Smash to Smithereens would just be better keeping to a mono-red build.

Were your mulligans through-out the tournament due to a lack of land in your opening hand? I only ask because I am curious if you feel like you need to re-consider your land count being at 17.