Printable View
Ah. I understand now. Thank you guys. As I said, it was probably a stupid idea.
I have a question regarding Stifles, since I'm seeing that the opinion towards it is generally negative. Is running Stifle MD now basically only if you see a lot of Fetching in your meta? If not enough decks fetch, then is it no longer worth its slot?
Stifles are personal preference (I run three maindeck, but those slots are up in the air currently), and it also depends on how much of the deck you want to devote to the mana-denial strategy, which is a large part of the deck, although that aspect seems to be waning a bit lately. Facing fetches make stifles much stronger, but they are still significantly useful if you're seeing a lot of Deeds or such--hell, you can even stifle Gobbo's vial activation if you need to.
I think this is kind of the right conclusion of the Wake Thrasher vs. Merfolk Sovereign discussion. Thrasher is a better topdeck being a big beater, but Sovereign has more synergy.Quote:
Originally Posted by tivadar
About the list with the white splash. Given an aggro meta with little control decks that use WoG or Deed, this would be my suggested list:
21 Lands
4 Flooded Strand
5 Island
3 Mutavault
2 Polluted Delta
3 Tundra
4 Wasteland
20 Creatures
4 Cursecatcher
4 Lord of Atlantis
4 Merfolk Sovereign
4 Merrow Reejerey
4 Silvergill Adept
19 Other spells
4 Aether Vial
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Standstill
3 Swords to Plowshares
15 Sideboard
2 Absolute Law
2 Disenchant
2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Relic of Progenitus
2 Stifle
1 Swords to Plowshares
2 Threads of Disloyalty
2 Umezawa's Jitte
I'm not saying this is THE correct list or anything. Just wanted to post it as a context for three issues:
1. Friends of mine suggest Burrenton Forge-Tender as replacements for Absolute Law in the sideboard saying that it can be played T1 and block Piley as main advantages. I believe that Absolute Law is better (in combination with the StP's and Jittes).
2. Maindeck I switched (from Nightmare's list) 3 Stifle with 3 StP. Given an aggro meta, wouldn't this be better than 3 StP side? I don't like Umezawa's Jitte main in this version of the deck for the mana curve would become too high with the 8 lords costing 3 mana.
3. I realize the sideboard has only 2-offs and admit it is still under heavy construction, but their is synergy. But maybe I should cut the Threads and add a Disenchant/Relic/Canonist.
Just wondering about your thoughts.
In the last 2 or 3 weeks I have tested a very good Mono-Blue list. In my opinion it does very well.
I've played many games against UR-Dreadstill, Nassif.deck and Canadian Threshold
MAIN// 60
Lands// 20
12 Island
4 Wasteland
4 Mutavault
Creatures// 22
4 Cursecatcher
4 Silvergill Adept
4 Lord of Atlantis
4 Merrow Reejerey
2 Wake Thrasher
2 Cold-Eyed-Selkie
2 Merfolk Sovereign
Spells// 18
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Standstill
4 Ęther Vial
2 Umezawa's Jitte
SIDEBOARD// 15
3 Threads of Disloyalty
4 Blue Elemental Blast
2 Relic of Progenitus
1 Tormod's Crypt
2 Wipe Away / Echoing Truth
3 Back to Basics
I'm not very proud on my SB. I think there is something missing, but I don't know exactly. In many games i cannot decide which cards I should get in. :tongue:
I need some good improvement suggestions, because i want to try this deck in about 10 days on a (I hope so :smile: ) huge event in germany.
I hope you can help me. :smile:
I can't think of anything off-hand about your sideboard without knowing more about what decks you expect to play against...Quote:
Originally Posted by Elvish-Champion
As far as the main-deck, I would strongly advise you cut Cold-Eyed Selkie, I'm that card's least-biggest fan... As far as what to use in those slots, I'd try out two Echoing Truth perhaps. This would free up a couple sideboard slots to play with...
I'll think and get back to you with more ideas.
You could stand to include another island or remove a mutavault or both. 12 blue sources is kind of archaic to begin with, but your double blue requirement is very high as well. I would definitely replace selkie, but I'm not sure about truth. Blue "removal" is kind of drab so you may just be better with 2 more sovereigns.Quote:
Originally Posted by Elvish-Champion
I won't comment much about your board since it's so meta-dependent, but if you have hydroblasts, I'd run a 2/2 split with BEB for needle protection.
Hello,
Yesterday i joined a small tourny in our place and i just ended up with 1 booster pack as a consolation prize.
The general meta was blue aggro (merfolks & seastompy) but the Champion was RGW zoo. All the merfolk decks got owned by RGW zoo.
After thinking on what has transpired here where some of my thoughts..
• Is playing stilfe nought a good addition to merfolk instead of adding utilities like relic, etc.... if you can kill your opponent quickly why not ???...
• The 12 lord combo for me is really excellent but... slows the deck... with the 12 lord setup im beginning to change my mind on the wakethrasher issue, trasher might not be needed after all if you can prevent a boardsweeper for your alpha strike.
+ Trasher don't need any alpha strike to deal big damage thus at the offensive end seems like a mini dreadnought
+ A good creature after a boardsweeping effect
- 12 lords plus 2 more thrasher makes the deck slow, especially when you can't get an early vial or continous early land drops.
• Would adding 1 or 2 curve creatures better if your using a 12 lord setup over adding utility card (relic of progen, echoing truth, etc.) to make the deck much faster ?
If yes what would be good choices ?? Right now the 2 curved creatures i could think off are:
- Waterfront bouncer
- Grimoire Thief
- Rootwater Thief
- Inkphathom Inflitrator (offensive only)
• Is adding the 1/2 curved creatures better as compared to the stifle nought combo ??
> Stilfe nought gives:
+ More landy cards
+ Faster clock
- Jitte (well atleast if i where to build it i'll remove the 2 jitte's to avoid too much artifact at hand to feed for fow.
- Needs a 2 card combo and when stifle gets countered or the dreadnought killed you've just lost a 2 for 1 card disadvantage
- No synergy with silvergill adpeth assuming no aether vial
> Adding 1/2 Creatures
+ More cards to pitch for force of will
+ Good synergy with silvergill adpeth
+ Can use Jitte
- Slower clock
- Can be killed by REB
- Needs lords to make them suitable for head to head combat... if you think about it its like a 2 card combination, but since you have 12 lords the chances are much higher.
• Is 4 to X fetchlands need ??
I still don't know the answer to this...
• I've seen games in where mana screw has been the issue in a 12 lord setup (4 mutavualts + 4 wasteland) finding the 2nd :u: mana seems problematic at times... its risky to cast a standstill aswell if you don't get any of your 4 man lands and your opponent has 1 2/2 creature on the table.
• In a standstill setup if you don't have a vial out it gets stuck in your hand or could be fatal if your not sure that you really have the upper hand over your opponent sample. Your opponent has 3 open mana and 1 3/3 wild nactl you have x2 lord of atlantis in play. You cast standstill guessing you had the upperhand via trading blows your opponent but your opponent casts x2 lightning bolts to kill your x2 lords you have no counter magic to stop it standstill resloves... your opponent thanks you for it...
Im not saying that all standstill play are like that but when things happens like that standstill could be such a pain...
I've played alot with the StifleNought combo in Merfolk. It's very strong indeed, but I cut them down for Wake Thrashers. A Wake Thrasher won't get 2-for-1'ed, and often you sit with a dead Dreadnought in your hand waiting on that Stifle. StifleNought is very strong, but not consistent. I would rather run Wake Thrashers. Especially since the meta is overrun by Qasali Pridemages.Quote:
Originally Posted by _erbs_
If you don't need Wake Thrasher, you don't need Phyrexian Dreadnought. The 'if' you can prevent a boardsweeper is a very big if. You better be damn sure you can do it.Quote:
Originally Posted by _erbs_
When Merfolk Sovereign got spoiled, I started playing with the following creature base: 4 Lord of Atlantis, Merrow Reejerey, Merfolk Sovereign, Silvergill Adept and Cursecatcher. 3 Wake Thrasher. Basically it's Nightmare's list with Wake Thrashers instead of Stifles. I prefer Wake Thrashers over other creatures because a) they're broken, b) they have cc3 which is nice if your opponent has cb; and it's also nice because Vial@3 rocks a bit harder. You'll have no doubt if you should keep that 1 Vial at 2 or pump it to 3. 3 is the right number now.Quote:
Originally Posted by _erbs_
Only if you splash a color. In monoblue, for deckthinning, it's not worth it. Partially because one of our biggest enemies is Tempo Thresh, and when you depend on fetches you're just giving them the game.Quote:
Originally Posted by _erbs_
Perhaps you should have mulled. That said, I am convinced that the proper manabase for mono blue Merfolk is: 4 Mutavault, 4 Wasteland, 13 Island.Quote:
Originally Posted by _erbs_
In this situation I wouldn't cast Standstill because you can take poison on it he'll bolt a Lord (and if it's not a bolt it's a PtE). After that the clock is in his favour, and he has alot of plays to break Standstill in your end step (if he needs to, if you draw a Mutavault for instance). In this scenario I would attack with 1 Lord each turn, baiting his Nacatl. If he blocks, drop Standstill. If he attacks, you should block and if he doesn't play any other creature you can play Standstill. G2/3 you should side out Standstill.Quote:
Originally Posted by _erbs_
@Skeggi
Thanks on your replies..
Your point on the "if" for the boardsweeper is really big indead i have to agree with you aswell with it since the standard merfolk has only 7-8 counter magics. So boardsweepers has a good chance in resolving..
Im guessing your creature base is around 22-23 (12 lordsetup), 20 of them are the standard merfolks the 2-3 are wakethrashers...
The vial counters at 3 is also nice indeed but when it gets hit before going to 3 you might have a hard time in recovering by casting another vial or hard casting your creatures.
Now alot of decks packs built-in hates for artifacts or someway of dealing with them. So if you have 14-15 3cc creatures you might have a hardtime dealing with fast decks like mono green stompy or zoo if you don't disrupt them early via stifling there fetchlands or have a continous flow of land and creatures early on to match there early pressure.
The plus for the 14 3cc creatures is against countertop which is a pain to deal with aswell.
The standard merfolk build has no form of spot removal aswell just jitte assuming your using it...
I know snakeform is crappy and slow, but giving somesort of removal in the mono blue setup be okay ??? Just another thought when faced with a lifelink creature like rhox war monk or knight of the medowgrain trading blows with them seems pointless....
I'd been running Threads of Disloyalty as my creature removal, but snakeform is an interesting option as well as it also 2 for 1's assuming you're blocking their creature. Advantages and disadvantages:Quote:
Originally Posted by _erbs_
Snakeform
+ Mono-blue
+ Works on all creatures
+ Cantrips if you have a creature on the board
- Requires a creature to block
- Must be attacking/blocking to be effective
Threads
+ Can be played with an empty board
+ Works with things such as confidant/lavamancer, without attack
+ 2 for 1's onto board (tempo) rather than into hand (card advantage)
- Requires 2 blue mana
- Doesn't work against high casting costs
Hello tivadar,
Are you using threads mainboard or in the SB ?
A few things you forgot to consider as a + to Snakeform well atleast for me...
+ For snakeform for being instant speed
+ Better casting cost since it only requires 1 :u:
Both be used by mono blue decks. As for the 2 for 1 on the board it could be a +/- since if threads gets disenchanted your back to square one well as its on to hand it could be a creature, utility, land, etc.
Are you on the 12 lord setup + thrasher build aswell ? how is it so far ?
Is the 12 lord setup + thrasher the way to go ?
If so is creature removal needed in the main deck so that the deck is prepared to face fast decks like zoo, gobs, etc.
I have no problems with the 12 lord setup + 2-3 thrashers since im currently running that kind of setup. The only thing thats been abit off is when faced against fast decks the deck struggles and is overwhelmed before you could build up your troops.
Yep, threads main. I've found that in the cases where it's not relevant, it's at least pitchable to FoW, which can't be said of Jitte. Where it *is* relevant, it's game changing. By mono-blue, I meant it requires one blue mana, as you say here. Sorry. As for the whole instant thing, that's not such a big deal in my mind, as it really only applies to things with haste or if they're running vial.Quote:
Originally Posted by _erbs_
I'm avoiding the 12 lord + thrasher build like the plague. Mainly because of your last point. I've found even with just 8 3cc creatures, the deck feels slow against zoo/sligh. Thow in 4 more and this gets much worse. I've tried thrashers, I've tried sovereigns, and with both, it's still slow. One could argue I need stifle, but the fact is that sligh really only needs 1-2 lands anyways.Quote:
Originally Posted by _erbs_
I'm still waiting on my last 2 Thrashers and 4 Sovereigns and 3 Mutavaults, but I have done some testing with the last ~10 slots. Stifle is a hit or miss with my meta so it's been a 3-4 of or +splash and STP.
Ponder vs Brainstorm in Merfolk from my point of view.
Brainstorm:
+Instant. I can play it after Standstill cracks or crack an opposing Standstill EoT.
+Replaces bad cards with better cards right away.
+Allows me to sit with mana open Turn 1 if I have Stifle.
-No/low fetch to rip those bad cards off the top.
Ponder:
Is basically the inverse of Brainstorm.
Then I've been thinking of mono blue removal. Snakeform has crossed my mind a few times as a 2 of. You guys already touched on that though. Pongify is another removal spell, but giving them a 3/3 is bad. It could turn a Lord into a stupid monkey, but I don't want to necessarily turn a Lackey into a 3/3. Echoing Truth is a "removal" spell I've been thinking on but have turned away from. Great against tokens, and it hits Moat maindecked...but it only buys a turn against nontokens (unless we counter it). Also it's not resolving against a CB.
Alternatively there is creature steal spells. Threads feels like the best. But I've been running Sower of Temptation because I don't own Threads. Shackles may be another option, but probably won't steal anything bigger than a 3/x or 4/x unless you run a lot of Islands.
I've pretty much decided to splash white temporarily just to get removal in the maindeck and to open up sideboard options like Disenchant, Absolute Law, Oblivion Ring and more.
How many threads are you running maindeck ?Quote:
Originally Posted by tivadar
Hmm.. interesting.. can you post your creature list ?
You've mentioned that you tried the 12 lord setup and yes it felt that the deck is slow but for what its worth i think its okay. It gives your armies the muscle to fiight head to head with other bigger creatures.
I'm not arguing against 12 lords entirely, but definitely against 12 lords + 2-3 thrashers. The list I'm playing with is 61 cards primarily because I wanted the extra land, but didn't really want to cut anything for it :-P. The ratio is still pretty good:
4 Lord of Atlantis
4 Merrow Reejery
4 Silvergill Adept
4 Wake Thrasher/Merfolk Sovereign
4 Cursecatcher/(Grimoire Thief)
4 Force of Will
4 Standstill
3 Daze
3 Threads of Disloyalty
3 Relic of Progenitus/(Stifle)
4 Aether Vial
13 Island
4 Wasteland
3 Mutavault
So, you'll notice the Grimoire Thief. Basically, I *don't* like stifle with 4 vial + 4 cursecatcher, and cursecatcher has been less than stellar for me couple with daze, so I was playing around with removing him and putting in another 2cc. And honestly, I was debating Chalice a bit. Our 1cc is pretty low and the thing that hurts us the most is direct damage. Probably not the best of ideas, but it just flitted through my head.
I don't like the 12-lord set-up, I think it makes the curve far too high for this deck which also runs 4 Wastelands and Mutavaults. At that point, you'll find yourself tapping the Wastelands and Mutavaults for mana instead of their intended purpose. Also, why play Wasteland without stifle? Of course Wasteland is fine on its own, but its so much stronger with stifle so that you can deny both fetches and duals, helping the deck's biggest rival, tempo thresh. I also play 2 relic mainboard because it is AMAZING against the two biggest decks in the meta right now, Thresh and Ichorid combo. Plus 2 Echoing Truth provides the removal that you HAVE to have. Question: what does the 12 lord + Wake Thrasher lists do when their opponent plays Moat? Without FoW, you lose.
watQuote:
Originally Posted by IsThisACatInAHat?
Hello Brizentine Empire,
Well moat crossed my mind during the part in where i was thinking of using stiflenought or thrashers in the maindeck.
Yes moat, slihana ledge walker, etc can give the deck a hard time but the percentage in which they are seen in current meta is quite low , thats why i didn't bother to bring that up. Moat costs alot in our place ($100 each)
As for the 12 lord setup, currently i don't run standstill and the my mana config are: 2 mutavualts, 3 wasteland & 14 island i use ponder over standstill, ponder is doing okay okay but not excellent.
With my current land setup i don't have problems with the 12 lords nor feel any pressure from my opponents wasteland slowing me down. But if my lands got hit by vindicate or sinkholes or i don't get a vial online early i can really feel the sting of the 3 curve. Thats why i was asking others who are using the 12 lord setup if increasing the 2 curve or adding the stiflenought combo could help.
Their are times in where i wish i had standstill drawing 3 cards is really really awesome especially against burn decks that run a small amount of creatures, but drawing those 3 cards requires abit of work aswell to be at your advantage (board position).
@tivadar
hmmm... i think cutting cursecatcher is a not such a good idea,
Cursecatercher is ...
+ early 1 drop, removing the 1 creature drop will also remove pressure from your opponent
+ protection or tempo gain early game
+ helps in counter wars
- abit dead late game if your opponent has lots of mana.
i haven't tried running 4 thrashers.. the most number ive used them was 3, but i feel 2 is the right number when you want to use him...
I want to try grimoire theif in my upcoming playtest sessions, how is he performing by the way?
Have your tried running 2 jitte mainboard ? I guess relic is a meta call in our place mainboard relic doesn't have much worth as compared to providing your deck more offensive tools.
There are alot of thresh like decks in our place aswell thats why i was asking if creature removal should be part of the main deck... in our area atleast the only use of relic against thresh is making tarmogoyf small... the mongose can easly be meet heads up by your creatures which is bigger when your lords are out.
Bant decks that runs trygon predator and rhox war monk gives me headaches aswell.. if my vial gets killed by pridemage or trygon my creature deployment is slowed by it greatly and trading blows with rhox war monk is a such a pain....
Hey everbody. I know that there was a discussion about this a while back, however I was just once again wondering what is the better splash. I'm running white right now since my meta is full of zoo type decks. Also would running Sovereign be worth it? It seems like he can only help this matchup. Thanks for any advice.
As an option we could try the Lorwryn block merfolk that reduces the cost of our merfolk by :1: . It seems like it would elminate some of the mana issues with the 12 lords (which I love) and also would give us a large edge in the mirror by saving so much mana.