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Three miracles in the top 8, pretty awesome to see this deck finally getting good results like it deserves. It's also nice to see how different each of the lists are, can't believe Maxime top 8'd with maindeck Red Blasts. I'm sure Joe is thrilled to see that. Maybe we'll be lucky to see an all miracles final. :D
Einherjer on his way to the Miracles mirror semi-finals:
http://i1035.photobucket.com/albums/...10000000/2.png
GOGO Jace+CB/Top! :cool:
Congrats to Phillip! Besides playing well, he plays very fluidly... he's the Miracles' Feline!
Damn good job man! Good read on the meta :) Congrats!Quote:
Originally Posted by Einherjer
Maxime, you won game 1, lost game 2 to a 1-of null rod, but that game 3, you threw it away!
When he brainstorm in response to Hymn, he could have hide RiP, and then very likely jam it onto the board on his next turn, Bug's tapped out and I doubt Bug could FoW. Of course, Maxime didn't and Hymn took RiP away.
Looking at the lists this GP (including trials):
1. 22 lands is in every list (unless I omit something)
2. Ponder is in every list (unless I omit something)
agree, g3 was played sub optimally.
I wanted to play 1-2 Ponder for more consistency, but I was afraid of Spirit of the Labyrinth, so decided to play 23 lands instead (including 2 Karakas). It was a mistake. I should have went with 22 Lands + 2 Ponder. Even if they vial in a SotL in response to a Ponder, it's not that big of a blowout: I just lose one draw. It's a lot more problematic when they do it in response to Brainstorm / Jacestorm.Quote:
Originally Posted by twndomn
It seems like miracles always does well in high profile tournaments. I think the reason it does not do so hot in events like scg is due to the fact that the deck is mentally taxing and takes a long time to close out games. With that said miracles is probably one of the most powerful strats atm if it is being piloted by a competent player.
Another point, No Venser in the Top 8 lists. Only venser list was a Trial winner Florian Marx. Despite him being different, he finished 138.
Was really impressed with the pace of your game Ein, was actually a delight to watch a miracles-player play the deck really well!
Gongratulations on your top4, very well deserved!
Okay so I am back from the GP. I ended up 4th - here is my list:
http://www.tcdecks.net/deck.php?id=12902&iddeck=94661
This list was perfect, it crushed everything. I'll post a tournamentreport somewhere and link it here as soon as its up - as for now Ill give you a short summary of the matches, plus Ill answer any questions:
Day 1: Win against HighTide, Merfolk, Jund, Elves, Esperblade, Patriot (Joel Larson), Death and Taxes, Canadian Threshold and Reanimator(Loic Le Briand) (Feature Match)
So I went undefeated 9-0 without Byes, easy going, right? Those MUs weren't in any particalur order, just Reanimator was last. So Day2 was easy right, just 4-2...
At Day2 I started to win against Jund and BUG Delver, only to lose the Mirror twice, against Maxime Gilles and Paulo Vitor Damo da Rosa.... well... So I had to win two more. I did win against Sneak and Tell after those losses only to beat BUG Delver in the last round 1-0 in order to make Top8. I was in the Feature match - area for pretty much all of Day2.
So in the Top8 I faced Jean-Mary Accart with Boros Painter, which I crushed, only to lose the Semifinals against Maxime Gilles again.
This was the (very!) short recap, deck was outstanding, my plays were good enough to match the decks standards and so I crushed everything and everybody - just the mirror tended to be... well tough - I lost 0-2 three times. I have alot of experience with the Mirror but the opponents had outstanding techs against the mirror just as REB MB and Mystic SB.... Maxime seemed just as professional as I was with playing the deck and PV... well it's PV, right?
If you have any questions I can answer just shoot them away. And thanks for the cheering and congratulations! As said above I'll publish a full and lenghty tournament report at some website...somewhen.
Greetings!
meh~, Philipp the camera match you were on, it was speed Magic against the clock, even though you don't really have to. If you were up against Javier in the final, you would have crushed BUG. It was a great feat in the recent years.Quote:
Originally Posted by Einherjer
Hey guys,
some miracle information from GP Paris.
I did drop Day 2( Round 14) , i don't know if it was variance or something else. Does not matter. Don't want to bore you with details how i got destroyed by awesome draws of my opponents.
---
I did test a lot the months before the tournament and handed to some guys my decklist, after i felt very confident about it ( Einherjer, Stefan Schütz, who made Top 32 and PV and two other guys who failed to make Day 2, due to inexperience with this deck)
Einherjer and PV made some minor changes in the maindeck but PV somehow choose to completely dilute the SB, which was maybe the reason he lost to Reanimator. But nevertheless i was very impressed that PV did extremely well, although he didn't play the deck before.
He also was very nice, and talking to him was a lot of fun.
One conversation went like this:
"Why do you play SFM?" - PV: "Because I like it"
"But it sucks against Black decks with discard" - PV: "Yeah i know, but it's strong against Patriot or Controldecks, when they board out their removal, like against Esper or the mirror"
"Would you really board it against Esper, because it seems to not do much and they play Thoughtseize"- PV :" Yeah probably not, but maybe. I don't know, I never played against Esper"
I don't post here to take any credit for the Top 8 of these two awesome players, both players played extremely well and especially Einherjer really deserved the Top 4 (He is the fastest Miracle player in the world and 9-0 without any byes is really sick :D)
I post here because Miracle is secretely the best deck in Legacy and I'm sure that there is a best list for the current metagame.
Einherjer and I are going to visit the Legacy GP in the US, and in the meantime we will keep on working to make an even better list. I want to invite some guys to PM me here or on Magic Online, so that we can work on a good list and come up with something even better.
So if you're open minded and a good player it would be a good idea to share thoughts about Miracle, so that we then maybe have the best list for the next GP or BoM which Einherjer stated he is maybe not visiting because of the Block PT. But i doubt that he leaves out a chance to crush another Legacy tournament ;)
----
I want to try some crazy stuff like Leyline (decent at Turn 4, insane Turn 0 against Jund/BUG Delver f.ex.), Phyrexian Revoker (Sneak/Show hate) etc. and of course i will give Venser once again a chance, but as it stands now he's inferior to other choices. But i could be wrong.
I would have def. crushed Javier... at the GP I won 2-0 and 1-0 vs BUG, so it would be easy I guess. Anyways, I am a fast player, I always said so and I do not see a reason to play slow. Well I did stall INGAME, which is more than legal - doing nothing than remove creatures while sitting at 1-0 is fine. What I really hate is stalling outside of games, just borderline legal. BLARGH! I just cant stand those people... So I try and give my best at lightning speed magic... the only exceptions are scenarios which I havn't come across yet, they are not many, but they happen. And if they do I take my time to figure them out, but once I did that I can replicate those at a split second.Quote:
Originally Posted by twndomn
Greetings
I also played Miracles at the GP after being handed the product of the Einherjer/Adryan/Stefan Schütz collaboration. Unfortunately I missed day 2 at 5-3-tilt-drop. Deck felt really powerful and I'm not surprised it did that well in the hands of more experienced pilots. I'm pretty convinced this deck is the best currently in the format.
My results were:
Round 1 bye
Round 2 bye
Round 3 2-0 against UW Stoneblade
Round 4 2-1 against Deathblade
Round 5 1-2 against Patriot (first mistake on a bad keep in game 2, I should be ashamed of this result)
Round 6 2-1 against ANT
Round 7 0-2 against Sneak Show (second mistake in game 2 on an Intuition split - maybe it wasn't wrong at the moment, but it cost me the game in hindsight)
Round 8 1-1 against Team America - I'm leading comfortably 1-0 while the clock is ticking down, then completely threw away the match which puts me on tilt. Before kicking us both out with a draw I conceed to the guy and wish him best luck because it was completely my own fault.
So, with tighter play, the Austrian Miracles Alliance could have had another guy in Day 2 (or maybe even a 5th one, since the last of us was fairly close too, with 6-3).
It's not a secret, I think everyone here knows it's the best. :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Adryan
None of those are crazy - I've played Leyline on and off against BGx decks and it works great againt Liliana.Quote:
Originally Posted by Adryan
I player a Revoker in the last SCG (Nashville) instead of a second needle to provide disruption and a clock - didn't play against Sneak all day but it was great in testing.
I don't have any card on Magic Online, but would be happy to contribute what I can.
People outside of this thread know about Miracles, people just aren't convinced, until now.Quote:
Originally Posted by alphastryk
There is no point running Leyline. If you're really concerned about Liliana, Runed Halo works against TNN, important part of Liliana, Tendrils, Grindstone, and Griselbrand somewhat. You might say Halo can be decayed, but BG decks all pack Golgari Charm SB because the fear of TNN. Hence Leyline is vulnerable to removal as well.
That may be the case now - the last time I played Leyline was pre-TNN. I haven't felt the need for that effect lately. Having lots of Cliques and the 3rd entreat attacks Liliana and the decks she is in much more effectively.Quote:
Originally Posted by twndomn
The question is what we need those cards for...I played against every competitive archetype except Storm and won everything, besides the mirror. Based on my list I would look to make suggestions to improve the mirror. Or just face opponents without MB REBs or SB Mystics... other than that... why change something that's working?
Greetings
Fair enough, I was just pointing out that neither Revoker or Leyline is new tech.
I would think more Cliques would help significantly in the mirror, and it is good against SB stoneforge as well.
Just because something is working doesn't mean it can't work better. Especially if you predict a metagame heavy in a particular archetype, it can be beneficial to adjust your deck accordingly to have a stronger game against those types of decks.
Hello,
because, it is not not working all the time ( Mirror matches), and it works not for all people just for some. So changes could be made
to get a better Mirror Match and then again for personal playstyle strategy and Metagame.
and ofcouse if you want the math approach because certainly it can be more effiecent then now, improve consitency reduce vairity and
improve cost-effectiveness.
Best ragards Teveshszat
If people are going to start playing Control again I'm switching back to Thassa. Drawing a card every turn is no joke, and her Indestructible nature gives you an edge against Wear & Tear/Disenchant effects. She still gets Path'd or whatever, but you don't care because she's only a Creature when you have equally broken stuff in play.
I personally feel that it's pointless to meta a Legacy event that's outside of your LGS. Any event in the SCG size or greater is wide open.Quote:
Originally Posted by Einherjer
More Clique is of course the obvious idea, so is more CB. Joe's list is probably the best version by that logic. However, I wouldn't take Joe's list to unknown meta, that's just me.
In mirror, let's say you're behind, as in opponent has CB/Jace on his board and you don't have any. You have couple ways to come back using the following SB cards:
1. Venser: Yes, it's vulnerable to blast, but if they spend their only/few Red source on Venser EOT, you might be able to resolve your Jace on your own turn.
2. Sulfur Elemental: It's very possible opponent SB-out some StP. You can easily kill opponent's Jace, especially if you have your Karakas in play.
3. Wear//Tear: I'm saying this because your list runs Disenchant. Wear//Tear targeting your opponent's CB and someone's Top using Fuse, CB flip 3 is much harder than 2.
Good job on everyone's finish!
I'm glad to see good results being put up, but there's always room for improvement. The mirror matches are never fun, the real question is, what's the tech edge (pun intended) in the mirror? Time will tell.
Hopefully now this gets moved back to DTB.
-Matt
Ooooh I would have loved to be that 4th/5th guy :smile:... but I threw away one match completely and got "no land mulled" multiple times in both games of another match. Anyway without the AMA I don't think I would have had a chance to play the deck that effectively at all since I just picked it up a couple of weeks before the GP. It is really tough on the mind and in a long tournament many decisions have to be automatic and fast so there is enough "concentration power" left for the difficult spots. But I think it is one of the best decks in the format since it's existence and THE best deck since TNN. It is just much harder to play perfectly than most other decks, but if you master it like Einherjer it can be incredibly rewarding.Quote:
Originally Posted by Philipp2293
Btw.: AMA is a perfect... the seal for a good quality decklist.
http://www.honigmayr.at/assets/image...uetesiegel.jpg
Next thing we really have to test is the SFM. After seeing PV crushing Philipp on the draw with a Mulligan to 4 just because of his Mystic it is surely worth testing it. My concern is how good/useful it is in any other fair matchups, but we will see.
Einherjer, I have a few questions about your list (and a huge congrats! European Miracles players really showed us up in the US, we better bring the heat in New Jersey... :p).
Why the third Tundra (over say a Mystic Gate or something)?
Why so many Flusterstorms?
Why the 4 MD Terminus as opposed to a 3-1 Terminus/Verdict split?
With no Pithing Needle, Humility, Venser, or ORing you seem a little light on Sneak Attack hate, was this an intentional meta-game risk or did you feel like the MU is good enough without these cards?
As for the mirror, more Cliques would definitely help a whole lot and the fourth Counterbalance wouldn't hurt either. I've liked Enlightened Tutor in the mirror as well, and if you want to go super deep, Luminarch Ascension is probably one of the most backbreaking cards in the mirror. How did you SB for the mirror?
Re Einherjer
Congratulations again!
I am really curious about the reasoning of the changes you made since the GP Vienna Legacy event:
Second Ponder over the 3rd Enteat.
Second Volcanic over the 4th Tundra and the sideboard Mountain.
4th Ternimus over 3+1 Supreme.
2 CS and 2 SP instead of 1 3.
No 4 Reb effects SB?
The SB is "totally" different.
Could you manage to take back the Miracles topic to the Deck to Beat cathergory in this website? I think this and BUG are now really the decks to beat!
Thank you!
@Dzra I can answer you some stuff.
-4 Terminus is better against all the Esper decks, which we expected to see a lot. Almost the whole mtgmadness team was on Esper.
- From my experience Sneak/Show is a little bit more than 50/50 with the MD/SB he played. I don't know if there exists a way to improve that whithout damaging the win % against other decks like Delver, Esper etc.
I wouldn't also tune much for the mirror, because this is Legacy and if you want to do well and are not a gambler like the guy who played blasts MD (it worked but that doesnt mean it's good) your best way to win a large tournament is not to tune for some decks but to be as good positioned as possible against an open field.
I also don't think that there will be a noteable increase in Miracle decks, because i never heard about guys who picked the deck up last night because their friends told them so and then they did win a big tournament.
Playing Miracle is really hard and for a lot of people it's a boring deck to play with or against.
I also played Miracles at the GP, going with a former list of Joe Lossett with minimal changes(3 Spell Pierces in the main, Sulfur Elemental and Celestial Purge in the sideboard).
First of all I want to congratulate my austrian mates who did so well with this deck, especially Philipp. Amazing job.
Went 3-3 Drop without Byes due to quite some variance in my matchups, which I think I handled the best I could while playing fast and not making fatal mistakes at all.
If someone cares, here is a small recap from my side:
R1: ANT 2:0 (it's really hard to lose this with 4 CB and a Venser maindeck)
R2: NicFit Brew 1:0 : Going to time since the whole game was revolving around chumpblocking a Thrun with Venser/Karakas engine and Venserbouncing his big mana plays until i found Entreat.
R3: Sundering MUD 2:0 : Really stunning games with Karn ultimate going on and huge Venseraction again. I swear any miracle player who doesn't run Venser would have lost against this guy.
Highlight of the match: I have a Venser in play in G2, another one in hand and draw into a Jace, knowing he has All is dust in hand. So i keep beating him with Venser the whole game while countering his bombs, so he finally got mad and all-is-dusted the first Venser, so i could EOT Venser one of his Cloudpost with City of Traitors in play to his hand and play Jace in my turn and take the game. That felt really cool.
R4: Lejay with RW Painter 0:2 , who later went Top8: This guy had amazing draws. We played draw go with him having a top in play for like 6 turns until i felt confident enough to drop my Counterbalance/clique/jace with counterbackup. It turned out that he had 5(!) Red Blasts that game, countered anything i tried to resolve and went with Enlightened Tutor for the win eventually.
Game 2 was weird as hell. He started with T1 hardcast Spirit Guide, T2 Ensnaring Bridge and T3 with his 1-of Koth of the Hammer. With clique as my only answer to Koth and Explosives in hand i was facing a dilemma. He eventually ticked up to 5, then going to ultimate and grind me out with his 4 Mountains. What a shame Venser can't bounce Emblems..
R5: BUG Delver 0:2 : Siiick draws from him. He had everything he needed, all the time. Multiple discard spells, counters, Delver, Goyf, Liliana, Stifle, Wasteland. When he had multiple Hymns, he also had multiple Forces for my Misdirections. I got totally crushed here.
R6: Jund 0:1 : Got a game loss for being 2 minutes to late, as i couldn't find this very well hidden table. G2 he ran away with it as i was about to stabilize the next turn with being on 2 life, he is playing from the top. Topdecks punishing fire. Thats a miserable experience after pushing trough Discard, 3(!) Bloodbraid Elves(cliqued away the 2nd into the 3rd), Goyfs, Shamans, Liliana and a weird manland he played.
For what its worth, i got paired with some random stuff which I still pushed trough and lost many games in a row due to ridiculous draws from my opponents.
The deck felt absolutely stunning tough, and I could have done way better if a few things went more in my favour.
Some of you might have noticed my fascination for Venser, as he is nuts in turning games around out of nowhere. I suggest anyone who didn't test him yet to try him with 2 Karakas and 3 Cliques.
Will Miracles win GP Paris?
I'm not big on rumors, but this is pretty wild if it turns out to be true. I saw the Brainstorm clip that was posted, but having no context to work from, I thought it looked like an accident.
http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazin...par14/standfin
Joe went over the decklists on his stream
http://www.twitch.tv/oarsman79/b/504203064?t=185m35s
Quote:
Originally Posted by rickster
Re-watching it, my criticism of canonist against sneak&show doesn't make any sense.
It's okay, we all like to be critical sometimes :D
Does anyone have a link to the clip? (and where would I find the video coverage in general for that matter?)Quote:
Originally Posted by oarsman
Google: grand prix paris video coverageQuote:
Originally Posted by Dzra
2nd result: "Jump to Live Video Stream Information" -> http://www.twitch.tv/magic for finals, semis, quarters
Ok, so I believe the Brainstorm in question is at 8:47.
http://www.twitch.tv/magic/b/503812813
I'm not sure if it's cheating or just being tired... Personally, I've accidentally drawn/knocked over extra cards before and I've even skipped my draw step entirely before, but I don't think that I've ever put back less than two cards off of Brainstorm. It's somewhat interesting (and also unfortunate) that right at the time of the Brainstorm, the judges are away from the game due to the prior ruling that just took place. Maybe this isn't the place to discuss this though.
I'm sorry Joe, but I'm with Einherjer regarding the pros and cons of different builds. I do believe that Snapcaster-centric build, which utilizes Ponder and shy away from Venser, is the direction to go. Of course, you can always prove others (including me) wrong by doing well in SCG and GP.Quote:
Originally Posted by oarsman
Personally, I don't see why you wouldn't want a ton of Cliques as well as Snapcaster and Venser. AFCATT. All Flash Creatures, All The Time.
Also Joe, why do you think that UB Tezz is favored over Miracles? I've found that I win basically every game that doesn't involve a turn 2/3 planeswalker. Miracles will pretty easily lose to an early planeswalker or multiple fast planeswalkers, but outside of that, I feel like the MU is very favorable.
And as a side note, I think that leaving in one or two Terminus is fine. Swords to Plowshares almost certainly has to come out because in addition to not needing much removal, it helps minimize Chalice. A couple sweepers seem fine; I think the question is whether Supreme Verdict or Terminus is better.
Supreme Verdict pros:
4cmc for Counterbalance (since planeswalkers are the main threat)
Pitches to FoW
Terminus pros:
Instant speed (blowouts against Tezz ultimate)
Puts creatures on bottom to avoid Academy Ruins recursion (especially against Wurmcoil Engine)
Unless you know that Wurmcoil is present, I'd probably play with two Supreme Verdict post-board.
even 6th ranked Miracle player only plays a Disenchant against a Chalice@1
His other only answear is EE. EE can be shut down by anything. Hard counters and Pithing Needle (tutorable with Tezzeret)
A turn 1 Chalice sounds like almost unrecoverable.. and he plays 4 all the times. I find modern Miracle lists so light on removals (apart from creature removals)