You're absolutely right - fitting FOW in LED dredge requires you to warp the deck too much, but it ports nicely into manaless especially with amalgram.
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You're absolutely right - fitting FOW in LED dredge requires you to warp the deck too much, but it ports nicely into manaless especially with amalgram.
I've actually had some success with 3x Force in the sideboard (just picked up a fourth today). With a quad-heavy list, I don't think it stresses the deck much to yank singletons (maybe 2x LED because it clashes). I might take the deck out for a spin at the local tomorrow.
It doesn't stop T0 Leyline, but there are a few big advantages I've noticed:
—Hands that otherwise look like an automatic mulligan to 6 or 5 sometimes get a lot better with a Force in them, especially when a pesky Narcomoeba is there and/or where speed isn't really a big concern. (N.B.: I can't say the same about Firestorm, which I've never run and haven't been tempted to do in months.)
—Answers any (ANY) hate-card except Extirpate or Bog.
—Sandbagging a Force will take people by surprise. It's won me games that way.
Not saying it's perfect, but I think it's great here.
This looks at leat interesting.Quote:
Originally Posted by mistercakes
What is the rationale over por example lotus petal?
this was something suggested by vieko, it's used in addition to lotus petal on the draw. i tend to play a 9 land + 4 petal list over the traditional 13 land list. this makes the deck a little more explosive and helps around daze, but you are in a bit of trouble if you want to cast sb cards or cabal therapy. i've had a lot of fun with this deck and have a generally positive record overall, even through decks with a lot of hate. (non leyline)
the rational for bringing in 4 is to just outrace slower forms of hate like rest in peace and containment priest.
i have been playing around with some sb's though in case cards like leyline and grafdiggers become popular. (hard to say as dredge and reanimator will never be tier 1)
has anyone tried negator sb's?
i was thinking something like
spells (30)
4 lion's eye diamond
4 lotus petal
4 faithless looting
4 careful study
4 bridge from below
4 cabal therapy
3 breakthrough
2 dread return
creatures (21)
4 narcomoeba
4 ichorid
4 golgari-grave troll
4 stinkweed imp
3 golgari thug
1 flame-kin zealot
1 griselbrand
lands (9)
4 cephalid coliseum
4 gemstone mine
2 mana confluence
-------
this list being what i normally play for the maindeck, although i usually run +1 thug, -1 griselbrand. -1 mana confluence + 1 breakthrough. -1 ichorid +1 firestorm. (trying this list out though as i saw the list that went 5-0 twice on mtggoldfish has 4 ichorid and a griselbrand, so i'm willing try that.)
i normally run a pretty safe sideboard (see my prior posts) but have been considering some transformative sideboards for fun. has anyone tried this approach?
sb (15)
4 unmask
4 dark ritual
4 phyrexian negator
3 gemstone caverns
sb cuts:
4 lion's eye diamond
2 faithless looting
3 breakthrough
2 dread return
1 golgari-grave troll
1 ichorid
1 flame-kin zealot
1 griselbrand
would you sb differently? (let's just play along and go with the negator plan)
i also had another version that was for fun with this sb, although it works a lot better because it already has 4 lotus petals in the maindeck.
4 doomsday
4 dark ritual
4 infernal tutor
1 shelldock isle
1 emrakul
1 unmask/chrome mox
-rob
Dredge finished 52nd at Grand Prix Chiba: http://magic.wizards.com/en/events/c...sts-2016-11-27
Some interesting choices - particularly the 2 main deck DR targets, and much of the SB. Undiscovered Paradise, Noxious Revival, and Pithing Needle.
Represent!
Hey all,
been playing LED-Dredge quite irregularly for half a year now (still new to legacy) and usually with quite a generic list including 2 main DR+1 FKZ since it always felt the safest route for me. After this list from KMC-JPN really raised my interest http://mtgpulse.com/event/26371#347776 I've been trying it and now struggle to understand its purpose.
What would be the other reasons to play Flayer of the Hatebound than for example Ensnaring Bridge? It seems to be a bit slower than FKZ and possibly still needs another DR (of which the deck only has two). The list also has only 3 City of Brasses and one Undiscovered Paradise SB. What would be the reason to play Undisc. since I've understood that it was usually most beneficial to the lists that used Bloodghasts. Apparently Petals are to increase speed and evade Wastelands, but if you want speed for example against ANT or Burn, wouldn't FKZ be more reliable? Also wouldn't only 2 Golgari Thugs lower your consistency too much?
Greater Gargadon? Quite an unique choice. This seems to be intended to be suspended, since it's only one red mana and sometimes DR:ed against some decks probably, but when would you guys think the ability would be relevant? Against point-removal control decks?
I haven't tried Griselbrand myself, since I haven't really figured out when would I want it actually. I see the Griz in many lists and have read some comments that it's a win-more but are there any decks that we would want it against more than the other DR-targets?
Is this list inconsistent or cleverly meta-tweaked? What could be the secret of getting eighth in the tournament? Answers most appreciated! Still trying to learn the intricacies behind different Dredge builds and sideboardings. :)
Hey, Plaek!Quote:
Originally Posted by Plaek
Seems to me the main reason behind using Flayer is that you can shoot someone past Bridge/Blazing Archon, but I think there are other reasons, like that you can use it to avoid losing Bridges to combat on a clogged board. I don't think Flayer is that great (to KO, we need at least two—probably more—Dread Returns to pull it off with any consistency), but I think it might be a metagame call. Essential in Manaless, but not so great in this deck.
I think Gargadon is there to allow for instant-speed token generation, especially in the face of a number of problematic (though perhaps fringey) decks that can afford to throw away creatures to knock out Bridges. I guess it also makes it possible to get something more out of Ichorids if Bridges either get nuked or aren't forthcoming, though I don't know that it's worth it. Also makes a good last-ditch Dread Return target if the 'yard has been thoroughly burned out.
Feels like a build that leans rather strongly on Bridge, but maybe I'm wrong. I don't really understand the other choices you mentioned (Undiscovered Paradise to hedge against Back to Basics? No idea); only two Thugs seems really suboptimal, and I can't make sense of the land setup (or THREE PImps) [EDIT: The low land-count makes sense with the included Petals; I'm talking about the specific choices of which lands/how many of each kind]. Anyone with more play experience have any input on this one?
Regarding the player's getting eighth, all I can say is that oftentimes something unorthodox doesn't have to be great; it just has to take people by surprise and/or put them off balance. I've seen weird brews beat pretty good players just because they came out of nowhere.
Personally, I've come around to playing an FKZ-less mainboard with only one Dread Return for consistency's sake; more on that in a sec.
Went 2-1 today with my first Dredging at the local in several months. Had some hideous draws and dredges (lost to D&T because I just couldn't find anything in the top two-thirds of my deck), but got some interesting information out of the experience. My first opponent was the store's proprietor, who jumped in with Modern Dredge just because we couldn't make an even number, and he really dumped on me in game 1 by opening with Insolent Neonate to junk two Bridges. It's pretty fringey, but if you know a whole load of Dredge players in your meta, it seems like a possible sideboard card for a mirror-match.
Funnily enough, a friend had borrowed my deck a few days ago and hadn't unboarded it, so I was rolling in with double-Dread Return and FKZ in the maindeck. I had terrible problems with consistency all day. Ever since I'd switched over to 2x PAm, 1x Dread and G-Brand, I'd felt like things were going much more smoothly. I'd hoped to take that build out for its trial by fire today, and I'm feeling like today's tournament was a rather unscientific lesson in why I'd prefer that build to the all-in Zealot strategy.
I got to test quad-Force for the first time at a tournament. I liked it, and rather wish I'd used it more than I did. It won me a game against Shardless in which I kept a terrible hand. DDD'd a Troll on my first turn, Forced his Extraction, then just goldfished for the win.
I like Flayer over FKZ these days because FKZ relies on a lethal zombie army to win via multiple bridges and 3 nontoken creatures while flayer can pull off a win with 2 bridges, a therapy, and 2 nontoken creatures (or 1 bridge and 3 nontoken creatures). Flayer provides another angle of attack in cases when generating a lethal zombie army isn't enough to win the game.
Yeah, that's a good point. I actually ran Flayer in my sideboard for a while in order to get around Ensnaring Bridge, etc. I've just been running light on Dread Return lately and had to deal with Eldrazi, so I rotated it out for Blazing Archon.Quote:
Originally Posted by SHABOOGS
How many Ichorids/PAms are you running? I've found quad-Ichorid, double-PAm to reduce my reliance on Bridge from Below quite a bit.
I only run 4 narcos and 3 ichorids in my list. The downside of Flayer is that you need 3 DR to have a better chance of pulling off the kill with Flayer+GGT.
I went 5-0 at FNM last week with the following list. Matchups were:
2-0 UR delver, t1 g1 ashen'd his first land
2-0 Burn, g2 he conceded to me dredging iona and looking him straight in the eye
2-0 Esper Blade i think?
2-1 BR Reanimator, lost g2 to leyline
2-0 Sneak & Show, Ashen Rider stole both games imo
4 Cephalid Coliseum
4 Gemstone Mine
2 City of Brass (this would be 1 and 4 confluence but I only own 3 confluence)
3 Mana Confluence
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Breakthrough
4 Faithless Looting
1 Careful Study
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Bridge From Below
1 Dread Return
4 Putrid Imp
4 Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Golgari Thug
4 Stinkweed Imp
1 Ashen Rider
Sideboard
3 Lotus Petal
3 Faerie Macabre
3 Firestorm
1 Ashen Rider
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 Dread Return
2 Prized Almagam
Haven't played magic since the last time I played dredge to a day 2 at SCG STL over a year ago, and this was my first time using Prized Almagam at all, as well as not running any reactive answer cards to stuff like Leyline/Cage/RiP/Wheelofsunandmoon/Crypt/Relic/Everyhatecardever/etc. I only brought Almagam in for g2 & g3 vs reanimator to help nullify his Reanimates, taking out Rider and Return, and vs Blade to diversify threats in case of Surgical Extraction. The reanimator pilot told me afterwards he took his Exhumes out after his experience with Ashen Rider g1, so the board plan apparently worked better than I was hoping. As for the Blade match, I had enough therapies g2 that I'm not sure my sideboard mattered. Anyway, even after winning the event and feeling very happy about getting 12 packs for $5 entry, I'm not sure I would play this deck at a large event like Louisville. Especially with as many Chalice@1 that are expected to be there. Like I said, I haven't played in over a year, Dredge is the only deck/cards I own anymore. It's not like the players there are expecting me to be there week after week, so they might have diminished their grave hate to 4 cards or so at the most, then this week it might be 6-7, taking out the stuff they didn't need vs the players that weren't a threat. That's how meta games work.
I hate this deck.
I get it, as I have cursed this deck many times myself. Don't get me wrong though; dredge will always have a place in my heart as its a deck that fits my personality. The key to being successful with Dredge is not letting your meta be prepared week after week for it. Having multiple decks will keep your meta always guessing. Obviously being a competent pilot is necessary but one our greatest weapons is surprise, we are the REAL boogeyman of the format.
It's worth pointing out that a number of decks don't really benefit from having graveyard hate anyway, though I don't think you faced any of those in that field.Quote:
Originally Posted by laststepdown
This is incredible. I havent seen a "Core list" like this in a couple of years. 4 ichorid + 4 therapy, nice. I thought i would never see it again.Quote:
Originally Posted by laststepdown
Congrats. The old school deck still works...
I would include some anti-permanent hate...i recommned it. But your list looks fine.
1 more thing...how do you nullify reanimates with amalgalm?
Putrid Imp for life. More resilient, more ichorids, more therapy targets.Quote:
Originally Posted by GoldenCid
The best target they can get vs me with reanimate is gone by boarding almagam in and boarding out the ashen rider and return. Make sense? Last thing you want them to do is take your Ashen Rider. You could take any card out besides the Dread Return and get the same result, but it's easier mentally to just remove the whole package.
Anti hate is a crutch in my humble opinion after piloting the archetype for the past decade. Read my good friend Richard Feldman's article for more insight on the debate. I'd consider Ancient Grudge or Nature's Claim though if it was really becoming an issue.
I've considered Petals main, I've run them before (2008-ish?) but it really makes the deck more loose to chalice.
Sorry for my short script, I'm terrible at posting on forums with my phone.
4 pimpQuote:
Originally Posted by laststepdown
4 ichorid
4 therapy
was a "must" for me in that time. Maybe they deserve a new call.
Indeed i never runned petals for speed the deck was pretty good with led, BT and Study. I always wanted permanent anti hate caRDS. Once upon a time was chain of vapor and pithing needle. Now nature's claim and/or grudge are good calls. For those match like combo unmask always did the thing.
That's an interesting setup. Why so few Careful Studies? Also wondering why a full quad of Imp, as I've not been running Imps for a while. Felt like it helped consistency a bit when I got it, but it reduced explosivity substantially. Interested to hear what you think!Quote:
Originally Posted by laststepdown
I think I really answered this just a few posts above. Careful Study doesn't exile to Ichorid, and is much less resilient against hate. Imp gives you that naturally. Maybe I've had one too many Careful Studies get Spell Pierced in my day, but I've never been unhappy about dredging more Ichorid food. However, I actually have lost the game to starving Ichorids. Sure, it's less explosive than Study by a small margin. I'm just from a time where 4 Study/4 Breakthrough/2 Deep Analysis was what we had, and we ran 4 Imp and we fed our children. I'm doing this to feed the starving kids. Hell, there was a time when people ran Tireless Tribe. Have you ever tried to eat a white card? Don't do it. Take Ichorid's word for it. They taste terrible. The deck has been around a LONG time, and I've played enough versions to know what I'm personally comfortable with for my discard enablers. I choose Putrid Imp like you may choose a favorite Pokemon of the first 3 when you started the video game. The synergy is enough for me. I've got starving horrors. Putrid Imp is delicious. Careful Study has historically been very hit or miss. Breakthrough is the most powerful choice for an enabler obviously, that and Faithless Looting are auto 4x, but I don't feel Careful Study has been necessary in this deck ever since the printing of Looting, really. Optional, yes. Required? No.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ronald Deuce
The last time I touched this deck I was playing 2-3 Street Wraith to counter Deathrite Shaman (while still feeding), with the 3rd slot being a miser (do you kids still say that? sorry) Ashen Rider vs all the Omni/Sneak/Exhumes in my area. With less Deathrites around, I pulled the Wraiths out and looked at putting more land in so I could cast stuff a bit more reliably, no longer just folding to turn 1 Wasteland half the time. I wanted to keep the Rider main because it's an excellent removal spell with the Dread Return (sometimes it's just an optional subpar bridge activation), and it's as much Ichorid food as a Street Wraith. The least Ichorids I've ever ran main was 3, and I hated it. You want these cute lil fellas in play all the time, doing work. I'm not saying it's end-all, and you should put 1 Ashen Rider 1 Dread Return in your list no matter what, rather quite the opposite-if you like Careful Study, you could easily run up to 4, and you should run what you're comfortable with. The list I'm running just did the job at my local store, at one event, right? And you should adjust to what you're planning to do, be it local, online, or a large event. The Rider/Return is sort of a package. The core of the deck is just fine without either card. It is your decision whether you need it or not, and you can choose appropriately when you need to.
The x1 slot really could have been utility, like a Darkblast, or another Dread Return or something for a player that doesn't like Study. It is probably better as a Firestorm right now on a competitive level. When it comes down to it, the flex slots (imo of course based on the local meta) were the 'playset' of a) the 13th land, b) the Careful study, c) Dread Return d) Ashen Rider. If I was going to play Almagam x2 or x3 in main, I'd cut the Rider first, the Return, and then I would cut 1 Study before I cut the extra land or something as reliable as Putrid Imp or as powerful as Breakthrough or Faithless Looting.
I think the real questions should be pointed at the sideboard. I do think that including something more proactive like Unmask or Thoughtseize (even more something reactive like Nature's Claim, some Ingot Chewer/Wispmare combination, or Wear/Tear) would be better at a larger tournament than a 4 to 5 round FNM or weekly LGS event. I know my local meta enough to know (over two decades of experience with the game) when I can afford to run a fearless sideboard. Sideboards are usually full of interesting stuff to catch the opponent off guard. There isn't always a definite 15. The proper sideboard for an event or metagame can change by the hour. I had Aura Thief in my board at one point (in like 06 or 07?) since our Enchantress matchup is so bad. Return it, sac it to Therapy or another Return, cast Control Magic on their side of the table. It wasn't *good* by any means, but I was playing to one of my only outs. Depending on how en masse Eldrazi & Death and Taxes are going to be at Louisville, I wouldn't even play this deck. Most Eldrazi players will blind Chalice @1 no matter what, so if any of you have some insight on this matchup, I would love to hear it. I haven't had the time to test it, and like I said, I've been mostly away from the game for a number of years, but the format looks pretty bad to swim in right now for this deck.
Sorry for getting off topic, I hope this answers your inquiry a little more aptly along with my previous post. When you reap all the benefits enough times with Putrid Imp, you really miss him when he's not there. You're never going to sacrifice Careful Study to Therapy for your opponent's win condition. You're never going to be forced to discard your answer, be it a Macabre or Abrupt Decay or whatnot, by Putrid Imp. Putrid Imp wouldn't do that to you. Sometimes, on rare occasions, Putrid Imp will even go into combat for you-that's something Careful Study will only ever dream of. And after he's discarded all the stuff you wanted him to, went into battle for you, and died for you, he feeds your recurring horrors with his rotted corpse. Careful Study can be explosive, sure! It can also be a wet firework. Careful Study will never bait a Swords to Plowshares from the scared opponent. Careful Study wouldn't take that one for the team. That's not quality that I want to blindly rely on. When buffalo start rampaging towards your car on the way home from a tournament, Careful Study can't provide you with the insurance backup to get you the coverage you need. Putrid Imp cares about you and your deck, and Putrid Imp is here to help. Putrid Imp is the low cost coverage you can count on, and the quality you deserve. Like a good neighbor, Putrid Imp is there.
@laststepdown.
If your opener has 1 land, Putrid Imp, Careful Study, Dredger, dredger, and idk Bridge, Ichorid what would you cast on turn 1? The Imp or the Draw spell?
This feels like a trick question. There's too many variables. Am I on the play or draw? On the play g1 t1 vs an unknown opponent (which is what I'm assuming you're asking) I'll cast Putrid Imp. On the draw, it depends what you drew as much as what you saw from the opponent. Say you draw (best case scenario) LED. You can go all in vs t1 Forest -> Elf card (i.e. cast the Careful Study+hold priority LED), or Mountain -> Goblin Guide, and should-you're running a race at this point and need to start sprinting. On the draw vs say, an uncracked Flooded Strand, you could be setting yourself up for disaster just trying to resolve your first Study and should adjust your plays appropriately. What if this opponent is Miracles? Imp could possibly do 6-10 points of damage unanswered, dual functioning as your discard outlet while they look for interaction. What if they're on Storm, and you didn't topdeck the LED (we're not all perfect)? Careful Study without LED t1 (dredge 4-6 t2) is never going to be as explosive as Imp t1 into Study t2 (dredge anywhere from 12-18). It's not like Careful Study has flashback. So, usually Putrid Imp.Quote:
Originally Posted by Que
Not a trick question. And I'm sorry yeah I meant you're on the play T1 against an unknown opponent. It makes sense that you would want to cast Putrid Imp T1 especially with the limitation I gave which was you only have 1 land and like you said you will usually dredge more if you wait to cast your draw spell on turn 2 assuming it resolves.Quote:
Originally Posted by laststepdown
Now onto the reason I asked that in the first place. And i'm sure there are math wizzes out there that can determine the odds of the following happening, but in my experience leading with Putrid Imp has left me dredging less (the opposite of what you're saying) because my opponent's turn 1 was either a Wasteland or a Duress/Thoughtseize to take said Draw Spell. After that you're left slow dredging every turn which in today's meta is not good enough. The reason I cast the draw spell first is to either draw more Careful Study/Faithless Looting, an LED, a Cephalid Coliseum, or another land in the chance the existing one does get wasted. I feel like you get more options that way rather than just sulking after the realization that the only land/draw spell you had going for you just got wrenched. Also if you did only have that one land then I would still want to fire off the draw spell because if you go turn 1 Putrid Imp with the hopes of casting a careful study on your turn 2 you also now leave yourself open to soft permission like Daze as well as Spell Pierce.
With all that in mind I just decided to not really run it. I do have Street Wraith's in my build which provides that extra food for Ichorid as well as having Prized Amalgams added to the count. Just my little opinion on our friend PImp.
Ok this is what ill try. Any suggestions is welcomed. I was inspired by the core ichorid imp therapy
4 Ichorid
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Putrid Imp
3 Careful Study
4 Faithless Looting
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Thug
4 Narcomoeba
3 Breakthrough
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
1 Dread Return
4 Gemstone Mine
4 Cephalid Coliseum
4 Mana Confluence
1 City of Brass
4 Bridge from Below
SB: 4 Nature's Claim
SB: 1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
SB: 2 Faerie Macabre
SB: 2 Abrupt Decay
SB: 1 Ashen Rider
SB: 3 Firestorm
SB: 1 Dread Return
SB: 1 City of Brass
Just got home from a Tuesday night Legacy LGS event, went 4-0 first place undefeated again with Dredge. I changed a few things & tested some stuff out different from last time I posted. Got excellent results again, so figured I would share.
Games:Opponent
2-0 RUG Delver
2-1 Shardless BUG (loss to Leyline turn 0, happens)
2-0 Abzan KotR (g2 won through surgical on GGT and a Bojuka Bog)
2-0 Death & Taxes
4 Cephalid Coliseum
3 Mana Confluence
2 City of Brass (still don't own a 4th confluence, sorry)
4 Gemstone Mine
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Putrid Imp
4 Narcomoeba
4 Ichorid
2 Prized Amalgam
2 Golgari Thug
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
1 Ashen Rider
4 Faithless Looting
4 Breakthrough
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Dread Return
4 Bridge from Below
Sideboard
3 Lotus Petal
3 Unmask
3 Firestorm
3 Wear // Tear
1 Flayer of the Hatebound
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
Saw alot of DRS today. Did not care once at all, just overwhelmed the little 1/2 out of relevance. If I see him more I may go back to 2-3 Street Wraith in main. Also, this was the first time I used Prized Amalgam in sanctioned play. I'm going to keep this super short and just say he over-performed. He's the reason I put the 2nd Dread Return from the board to the main.
First of all congratulations on doing so well even after a long pause of not playing!Quote:
Originally Posted by laststepdown
I'm about to build LED Dredge and I have some questions regarding your build, I hope I can get some insight.
1. You "only" play 10 dredge creatures. Is that really enough to consistently hit them?
2. I see some list with 4 Amalgam, some with 0, and yours with 2. How often should I play it and why do you think it is worth playing over another dredger.
3. Why do you play Ashen Rider? Are you playing against a lot of Show and Tell or is there another reason?
4. I see in a lot of lists extra finisher, such as Flame-Kin Zealot and Flayer of the Hatebound. You play none of them. Any particular reasons?
5. Finally, could you give me some input on your Sideboard? I have no idea where you would prefer to board in Lotus Petal and Unmask.
Hey thanks. I love questions. Look at the build you quoted as more of a test run to see how Amalgam performs by my own personal play experience than my actual list.Quote:
Originally Posted by HansoRaptor
1. Check my usual (maindeck-sideboard can change event to event, it's good to have some read on the field) list a page or so back. I would recommend starting from there and working with what you're comfortable with. This is actually the first tournament I've ever cut to less than 11 dredgers, I'm actually happy that you noticed. That's a good thing to spot, especially for someone new to the archetype. I normally run 12. Although, I do run 4 Putrid Imp which lets you reuse dredgers much more than the normal 4 Careful Study builds, so the smaller number hasn't been very noticeable at all.
2. I own 2 japanese foil Golgari Thugs, and 2 english foil Golgari Thugs. I'd been keeping a mental note of when the english Thugs made an actual difference in scenarios like mulligans and going off. I don't actually think this list is 100% correct, it's just what I was comfortable with that day after goldfishing the changes. Like I said, the initial process was to test Amalgam in a sanctioned environment, 500 goldfishes of using it as flashback fuel won't do anything to help interacting vs actual players. So I bought the hype and took out my english Thugs for 2 zombies. Amalgam was a house, even MVP at that tournament for me. He's the largest free threat we have been introduced to in our combat arsenal since actual Ichorid. Unless we start running Life from the Loam or something trying to hard cast Grave-Trolls. That was good when dredge was in standard, not now. Amalgam though, he's efficient. 3 seemed like it would be overkill and might show up too much in openers. As for running zero, I've played without them for the past decade. That being said, I don't know the right number yet, but it's most likely more than zero.
3. Ashen Rider is amazing. I'm not sure how well I can explain this, but to preemptively answer your next question, I do run a finisher, Ashen Rider is my finisher. If it strip mines their first and/or second land drop (if we're lucky after we sacrificed it to therapy,) we're pretty set to win that game. If someone tries to cast Exhume while you have a Putrid Imp or LED out, it's obviously good for you. It's not terrible in your opener vs a blind opponent-it obviously beats the card Show and Tell. It exiles to Ichorid (and Unmask,) while Flame-Kin and Flayer don't. That 3 haste damage can matter more than you think, especially vs a deck with a clock. All of these things are good. I could give you a decade of scenarios with the deck where I just-don't-see one of my 1-4 dread returns I am running that given year and my random silver bullet Flayers/Flame-kins didn't do anything but force mulligans and chunk up vital cards in that first dredge of the game. Ashen Rider is surprisingly interactive with the current meta in both your hand and graveyard, and a maindeck answer to MOST things we could actually possibly lose to game 1. On a good day with Ashen Rider, Dread Return-Therapy-Dread Return-Therapy you've exiled 4 permanents and Mind Warped them. Or it randomly won because your opponent went "Petal Tomb SNT" before you took a turn. On a bad day, an Ichorid had lunch. (I still remember the days when we had to use Angel of Despair. She didn't care about us or our Bridge from Below. Dark times.) It's my toy and you can't take it away from me.
4. The copies of both cards that I own are english foil and I actually just can't stand them. If you notice, I actually do run my ugly english foil Flayer in my sideboard.
5. Lotus Petal lets you go faster. 10 years ago, when we ran Deep Analysis and Faithless Looting wasn't a card yet, some dredge players rocked 4 Petal main. I was one of those players. It was win-more in most cases, but what it really did was showcase the power of the mechanic. They still have their uses and there are times when the matchup requires you to be a turn faster than you are capable of going off with the game 1 setup. For instance, I want to speed up vs a deck like DNT. I'd rather establish a dominant board presence as fast as possible before they can hope to get any 2 mana hatebears on the board. Lotus Petal lets you get to your silver bullet Iona/Elesh/Flayer/Rider or just to all of your therapies to dismantle their hand. If you think you need more discard, or you want perfect information & missing on a Therapy could be the loss but your opponent can easily sandbag their hate/answer to you, bring in Unmask. I prefer it to Thoughtseize because of a few reasons, besides just the life loss. You can go off the same turn you cast it alot easier than Thoughtseize. If it ever comes up, Unmask gets around Chalice @ 1. There's no harm in tweaking my numbers. My friends and I have gone deep enough to play Homarid Spawning Bed in the sideboard at points in the deck's existence. That choice is admittedly hard to justify to people at times. Anyway. Sideboards should contain interesting cards to keep your opponents off balance, regardless of the archetype you brought to the tournament. "Unmask you" can do that pretty well. There's a ton of other cards that would do just as fine of a job in your personal board, and you should have a sideboard you're comfortable and fluid with.
Thanks a lot! That was more insight than I was expecting, you really helped me a lot.
Guess I have to start playing and see what I feel most comfortable with.
Well, Aether Revolt doesn't seem to have anything for Dredge that catches my eye.
And it's surprisingly thin on large creatures too..... :confused:
Hey Slave, good to see you on here too! I just joined this site and it seems far more active than the other.
But yeah, once again Dredge gets no love.
Nah man. It's pretty much dead here too since there isn't that much to talk about these days.Quote:
Originally Posted by Eretoryi
Oh hey, SHABOOGS! Good to see you on here as well :D
Yeah, I understand. Maybe we should have a moment of silence for Modern. The poor format is once again without Dredge.
That's what we were doing until YOU guys showed up! GOD!Quote:
Originally Posted by Eretoryi
:D
Oh dear. Forgive us!
I'm just excited to finally be on these forums because there is a lot more activity for Legacy as a whole here than elsewhere.
It's all good! I was just joshing you guys. Glad there are more people reading/posting!Quote:
Originally Posted by Eretoryi
Laststepdown, belated congratulations! Good shooting.
I agree with you about Amalgam. When it was spoiled, I didn't think much of it, but I've been liking it a lot as a double. Powers up our Therapies and Bridges, enables Force of Will out of the sideboard very well, can dodge Terminus, and weathers more stuff than any of our other creatures that aren't dedicated Dread Return targets. With that said, when I tested a third, it didn't do much for me.
Haven't played a ton of Dredge lately, but when I have, I've been on a list with quad-Ichorid and quad-Thug, and I've found quads to work a lot better for me than triples did. Interested to hear if you're still tinkering with the mix.
I'm starting to consider taking out Griselbrand and adding a maindeck Petal (and maybe switching one of my rainbow-lands for a Petal, too). I keep finding G-Brand either overkills people or does very little (esp. with only one Dread Return in the main), but I'm curious as to whether people still like having him around.
I'm probably going to start playing Dredge more than I have been for a while. I think being "that Storm guy" has been working against me at the local, so I'm going to start mixing it up.
Hehe, I had to play Dredge less because I was becoming the "Dredge guy," and people were bringing Leyline of the Void every week.
I always play four Golgari Thug and four Ichorid. I still haven't tested Prized Amalgam yet though, so I could see cutting an Ichorid for one, or even playing more with Force of Will in the sideboard.
I don't like Griselbrand as a Dread Return target. I prefer Flame-Kin Zealot or Dragonlord Kolaghan because they lead to a same turn combo win unless the opponent disrupts it. Griselbrand, on the other hand, requires us to pay life we may not have, and could still fail to win us the game (though that is unlikely). It just feels like adding an unnecessary step that costs life to the combo turn.
I have considered adding a Lotus Petal or two to the main deck, but I can never find room for them. Too many Putrid Imp (and one Tireless Tribe) in my deck because I love them so much :P
I wouldn't cut Ichorid for PAm; Ichorid is just so perfect for everything the deck's trying to do, and it's really fast. (N.B.: It also enables PAm.)Quote:
Originally Posted by Eretoryi
Flame-Kin is excellent, but I just find that it's rarely something I need to have. I keep it in my sideboard for matchups like Storm, where hasting and pumping our dudes is more important than building up a lot of zombies.Quote:
Originally Posted by Eretoryi
The thing that makes G-Brand handy is that he's also a black creature. At this point my real debate is over whether an extra black creature or another mana source would be better for my consistency. Kolaghan would fill that role as well, but I don't like that he neither boosts our other dudes nor draws us cards (nor, for that matter, gains us life). If we've got six zombies and a Zealot, we can swing for 21; we need more guys for lethal with Kolaghan, though I don't know how often that really matters (especially with fetches, etc.).
I personally don't run either PImp or Tribe, though occasionally I've found that a discard outlet would be good to have. Sounds like we have different approaches, which is fine; PImp is about half a step from being an inclusion for me, too. I'm on singletons Dread Return and G-Brand, with two Amalgams and quads of everything else (except 3x Gemstone and 1x black-bordered Italian City of Brass).Quote:
Originally Posted by Eretoryi
I actually agree with you. Ichorid is the bomb, so I guess Prized Amalgam is best in addition to the four Ichorids in a less combo-oriented list.
Since I play four Putrid Imp I don't find myself lacking black creatures. You're right though, our styles are a bit different, which is totally fine. Now that I think about it, Prized Amalgam might actually be a nice addition to my list since I tend not to emphasize the combo finish. I think I have just grown to like PImp and Tribe because they're good against hate.
I add a 13th land usually, playing four Gemstone Mine, four Mana Confluence, and one City of Brass.
Man, thinking about my list makes me want to play it more! Maybe I'll take it to the next Legacy night I'm able to attend. I miss turning my deck upside down.
Just wanted to say hey! and welcome new members!
Also on Tuesday I'm going to be streaming with Dredge Queen Erin Campbell herself. We will be jamming legacy with my current Dredge list. 7 PM PST. Check it out! :)
https://twitter.com/OriginalOestrus/...21736585383938
Twitch:
https://www.twitch.tv/originaloestrus
Nice. It's been a while since she played Legacy Dredge in her stream. Will def drop by to watch.
You gonna post the list?Quote:
Originally Posted by Que
Oh sorry yeah its pretty much the same as before, however, because DRS has declined somewhat in the meta I have shifted back towards the inclusion of Putrid Imp over the Street Wraiths I had. In either case I don't feel such a change makes or breaks the deck tbh and you can beat DRS with either list convincingly.Quote:
Originally Posted by potatodavid
Main Deck
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
3 Golgari Thug
3 Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba
2 Prized Amalgam
3 Putrid Imp
4 Stinkweed Imp
Creature ( 23)
4 Cephalid Coliseum
2 City Of Brass
3 Gemstone Mine
4 Mana Confluence
Land ( 13)
3 Breakthrough
4 Bridge from Below
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Careful Study
1 Dread Return
4 Faithless Looting
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
Other ( 24)
qty: 60
Sideboard
1 Ancient Grudge
2 Ashen Rider
1 Breakthrough
1 City Of Brass
1 Dread Return
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
3 Lotus Petal
2 Unmask
3 Wear // Tear
Sideboard ( 15)