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So I was the guy who came in 14th. I can try to explain some of my choices, but long story short...Quote:
Originally Posted by shopshopshop
1. This was my first sanctioned legacy event.
2. I have a powered down version I own with more priests and archdruids, but I was able to borrow cradles and bayuos for the event.
I had a blast playing it and I own much of my success yesterday to the info here, so thanks all!
Congratulations on the top 16 finish - that's awesome.Quote:
Originally Posted by JJTibbs
Your build attacks from a slightly different angle as Archdruids and Ezuri can really push combat damage through well.
I've been running with this recently.
Stuff (29+11=40) Lands (20) Sideboard (15) 1 Llanowar Elves
2 Birchlore Rangers
3 Heritage Druid
3 Nettle Sentinel
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Quirion Ranger
4 Wirewood Symbiote
4 Elvish Visionary
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Reclamation Sage
2 Craterhoof Behemoth
4 Glimpse of Nature
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Natural Order2 Dryad Arbor
2 Forest
1 Pendelhaven
2 Bayou
9 Fetches
4 Gaea's Cradle3 Pithing Needle
3 Thoughtseize
2 Cabal Therapy
1 Null Rod
1 Sylvan Library
3 Abrupt Decay
1 Natural Order
1 Progenitus
Played this last Saturday
2-0 v UWR Delver
2-1 v Death and Taxes
ID v Deadguy Ale (friend) - very winnable matchup.
1-2 v UWR Delver
I'm pretty sure I'll be on this
-1 Llanowar Elves
+1 Wren's Run Packmaster
for GP Nashville and SCG Atlanta. I might mix up the sideboard and cut down a Pithing Needle. I'd like to have something else against UR and UWR Delver variants - maybe cutting a Pithing Needle or the Null Rod for something to hedge there. I'm also not entirely sure I want 3 Thoughtseize, 2 Cabal Therapy instead of the other way around.
Maybe I'll give the mainboard Abrupt Decay idea ventouza6969 posted a shot for a couple nights to see how that is. I certainly like the idea of having more sideboard slots; it's not like winning game ones would be hard with three extra spells in the main.
I have been liking Energy Storm; although I have only tested it a few times.Quote:
Originally Posted by haganbmj
http://gatherer.wizards.com/Pages/Ca...tiverseid=2684
It locks out burn spells and holds delvers down and if you have a Cradle out it is easy to pay for.
My problem with Energy Storm is that it is only good if you are ahead. As you say, if you have a Cradle and enough creatures that the Cradle is making a reasonable amount of mana, then this card *might* strand a Pyroclasm in your opponent's hand. It might save one of your creatures from a burn spell, but then you just traded 1-for-1 and still have to pay the upkee--in this case I'd rather just have more creatures. It might also be something you draw when you're behind and can't pay the upkeep, and have no creatures in play. Or it might delay your win by making you pump mana into it over multiple turns.
I don't think this is a good solution to fighting burn spells.
If you can pay for the upkeep and still advance your board it works really good; if you have no board and are light on mana then you are correct it will be bad.Quote:
Originally Posted by shopshopshop
Against UR Delver I still like Ruric Thar, not so much against UWR but it still works.
I can try Energy Storm, but I'm pretty sure it doesn't affect the match in the way I want it to.Quote:
Originally Posted by Krasman
Ruric Thar was very situational when I played him; but maybe I'm just not seeing enough situations where I can get in a Ruric in play and not already be in a winning position. If you're putting a 6 mana creature in play then something, clearly, was already going well.
UR Delver has nothing they can do against Ruric Thar other turn double bolt or block and bolt, both of which are not good trades for them. If he stays alive they can't really afford to cast cantrips and it holds down Delvers.Quote:
Originally Posted by haganbmj
UWR Delver I find Ruric Thar still very useful for the same reason as UR delver, but they do have an extra answer with StP but they are still taking at least 6 damage.
I find I like getting Ruric Thar if I am behind on the board for the above reasons, most of the time you are going to NO for him. Obviously if fetching Craterhoof is going to be a win I just get him and beat.
Ever since I started main decking Ruric Thar I have never looked back.
What about Elderscale Wurm? It beats UR Delver, Burn, and many other decks that rely on damage.
I put one of those in my SB last week to try and it and I 2-0'd burn. (G1 was Ruric Thar, G2 was Elderscale Wurm.)Quote:
Originally Posted by AznSeal
The burn player was rather pissed; which made me happy.
I never had another match where it would of been good, so I need to test it more.
Wish I could say that was me. What a baller. Any idea how he finished?Quote:
Originally Posted by Kronicler
To the group: Isn't Energy Storm worse than Steely Resolve?
They both do different things. Steely Resolve kills spot removal, Energy Storm kills burn spells (both targeted and sweepers) and holds down Insectile Aberrations and other stuff we can't block but requires us to invest resources into it turn after turn to keep it up.
Not having your creatures Lightning Bolt-ed/Pyroclasmed/Rough//Tumbled/Forked Bolted/Firestormed can be worth it if you face a lot of UR(x)-Delver (and to a lesser extent Burn and Dredge) in your meta, I suppose.
One thing to note is that Steely Resolve (also Eladamri, Lord of Leaves) give elves shroud and would turn off Wirewood Symbiote & Quirion Ranger abilities.Quote:
Originally Posted by ESG
You can still target non-Elves to use the abilities. But you don't get to untap Elves though.Quote:
Originally Posted by Krasman
I never thought of it that way.... Dryad Arbor would still be a good target for both. Also Wirewood could still return an Elf as it is not actually targetting the elf with the first part of its ability.Quote:
Originally Posted by Julian23
I am not sure if they are worth playing though, as Quirion is unusable without Dryad, Wirewood or one of your fatties, but Wirewood could target itself with the untap. Either way it would slow down your mana production / comboing.
I was convinced before the tournament to run Progenitus, which I have never used. For some stupid reason I thought it had flying. The reason I scooped then, is Shields is playing a deck with almost no spells and I would have had to remove my own spells which would have taken too much time and could never get to a game 3. By scooping there I put myself in a position where I can win in turns and he cannot. The cradle was a lucky draw and for the record I could have drawn 2 more card from the visionary before I would have not had the mana for the craterhoof.Quote:
Originally Posted by B4L4
All I know is that he was X-2 going into the final round and that he did not top 8. He was a really nice guy - I was definitely hoping he would top 8 after he beat me. Alas, there was even a player at X-1-1 that didn't make it.Quote:
Originally Posted by ESG
Since you won game 1, it's likely you could have just kept playing g2. If the game went to a draw, you win the match 1-0-1.Quote:
Originally Posted by elfmagic
True I could have done that but I felt he had enough time and turns to simply draw a flyer, I thought the odds of me killing him on turn 5 or sooner in game 3 was a better idea (I assumed with turns I would get to 5 or 6). I'll admit I misplayed some other decisions but I still think the scoop was the best play, and cause of it and a lucky draw I won the match.Quote:
Originally Posted by shopshopshop
I think with resolve we just name insect since symbiote makes there targeted removal useless anyway
Thanks for the reply, i can see the reasoning behind the scoop now.
I watched the game again (start somewhere ~ 27:58:10) and i still have the feeling that you had enough gas to go for the DrS kill (would have been kinda awesome to beat Magus on camera that way).
Opponent is at 15 life with only Thalia, Magus of the Moat & 2 Ports as relevant permanents.
You have a spot where you can have double glimpse active with heritage + 2 nettles + 1 birchlore & a bunch of other stuff (including 3 symbiotes with visionary), so you can basically draw your deck at this point if you wish. I don't know how many NO / Glimpse / Decay you have after board, but you only need 8 of them in your graveyard to win (supposedly next turn with birchlore + a lot of untap effects) so its seems feasible.
Congrats on your finish btw, always nice to have some Elves on camera
I went 4-0 at the local Monday night Legacy with elves.
I ran a pretty standard list with 4 natural order main. I had a few awkward draws with double Natural Order but it never cost me the game.
R1: Blacksplash DnT 2-0
This is a rough matchup for DnT. G1 I went forest into Deathrite to hide my deck choice for a turn. I went off on turn 2 after an absurd glimpse chain and cast 2 natural orders for 2 hoofs for letahl with no untapped non-summoning sick creatures. He connected with a jitte once in game 2 but it didn't really matter. NO got there both times.
R2: Miracles 2-1
Game 1 I mulled to 4 and kept a no lander...I lost. Game 2 I got boarded out the glimpse combo and boarded in sylvans and abrupts. I got there with deathrite shaman pings and untaps. Game 3 I forced a bad terminus by playing wren's run. I then decayed a pithing needle on DRS so I could play a teeg from my hand. Teeg went the distance. DRS does so much work against miracles, it was well worth it to decay the needle.
R3: Rock 2-1
Game 1 was a turn 4 NO. Game 2 I kept a slow hand and he had deathrite->sfm->jitte equip and swing turn 3. Game 3 was rough, I NO'd for progenitus when he had a solid boardstate. I theoretically knew he had a deluge in hand but for some reason thought it was a bitterblossom after glancing at the art. He deluged for 10 and wiped the board. I came back and hoofed with like, 3 creatures on the board for lethal since he was at 8. This game was super close, the Rock player is really solid and was winning bad matchups all night, he beat storm and miracles in previous rounds.
R4: MUD 2-0
He was on mudpost, I play the deck from time to time so I know it well. This was an absolutely ridiculous matchup, both games he had chalices and 3spheres. Game 1 he went tomb->grim->sphere, next turn chalice. Thankfully I was on the play game 1 so I'd played a quirion ranger. Turn 2 I played cradle swung and passed, he dropped a chalice on 2. Turn 3 I tapped cradle, tapped forest, replayed forest, tapped it and zenithed for a dryad arbor then swung and passed. He played steel hellkite. Next turn I tapped forest, dryad and played visionary, then I tapped cradle for 3, replayed the forest untapping dryad arbor and tapped the forest to NO for hoof saccing the visionary. I swung for 16, he was at 11 after 4 tomb activations and swings for 2 (+1 from glimmerpost last turn) so it was lethal over the hellkite
Game 2 I mulled down to 5 and he again played trinisphere, chalice and then 2 forgemasters. This time I was able rec sage the chalice, he sacced it along with his forgemasters and looked through his deck for platinum angel. Blightsteel may have killed me here but he sided it out =). T I played a couple quirions for 3 the following turns and he played platinum empirion and started swinging with his angel. I managed to get 7 mana with 2 quirions and an arbor so I NO'd for wirewood saccing a ranger then bounced rec sage and replayed it on angel. Then he played hellkite. I bounced sage and killed the hellkite then decayed his 3sphere. Wirewood was stalling the empirion on the ground so it wasn't a concern. After that I started swinging for 4 or 5 a turn and vindicating whatever he played.
Similar to what was posted on the last page, I too am trying to figure out good SB cards against U/W/R Delver and UR Delver. Ruric is theoretically pretty good against both, but getting him into play is easier said then done against the amount of removal these two decks run. Elderscale Wurm is another fatty that has been brought up, but Im not really sure he's stronger than ruric. Even if he is, using a SB slot for a marginally better fatty for a matchup or two doesnt seem ideal.
Basically, If I am looking to dedicate 2-3 SB slots specifically to the U/W/R Delver and UR Delver matchups (they make up about 30% of my local meta), what would be the best choice?
Is disfigure a terrible solution? Neither have a large amount of threats and so long as they can't start strong we'll get to enter our zesty mid game where we get all our optionsQuote:
Originally Posted by Atikin
So I just bought this deck and it going to be my forever deck in legacy. I just want to know what everyones sideboarding plans are. My first idea is just board out the glimps package but I dont know. Just as a general idea what does everyone do?
That...is not a bad idea! You can tag SFM, Lavamancer, Delver, Young Peezy, and opposing DRS's. That's kinda hot. Now I wish I still had those foil Disfigures...Quote:
Originally Posted by Tammit67
Start here. http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...l=1#post731679Quote:
Originally Posted by jim111589
Disfigure seems like a reasonable solution to slow down the opponent on actually killing you. I was looking at adding a fourth Abrupt Decay, but I think I'll give Disfigure a try first.Quote:
Originally Posted by danyul
I think UR matchup is already fine and UWR is a tiny bit tougher. I think you want pithing needles and decays and that should be enough to handle their cards that can X for 1 us if left unchecked and shoot down the flying dumbo.
UWR can shift from aggro into control very well and UR can play an extremely proactive game plan depending on the number of bolts (you have to remember if you see just bolt or see bolt and chain). Most of the time you just have to play by ear and take note of your opponent's play style.
Disfigure is tactically very efficient but I don't want to have too many removal spells in my deck, when we can just deploy threats conservatively to test the water and kill them with packmaster or NO when they run out. I think that a compelling reason for inclusion of disfigure in addition to decay is that against meddling mage, we can kill a mage naming decay.
What does your board currently look like? I think it would be more useful to look at the inclusion of cards within context of an entire board.
I usually play:
3-6 discard
3 decay
6-9 meta slots
And specifically now;
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Pithing Needle
1 Reclamation Sage (1 main, 1 side)
2 Null Rod
1 Progenitus
1 Sylvan Library
1 Choke
I'm very anti-miracles heavy and I've found the second rec sage very useful for having outs to postboard cages coming from every side. NB: I also main ooze.
Oh wow. Maybe instead of 3 Abrupt Decay, run 2 Decays and 1 Disfigure..Quote:
Originally Posted by Tammit67
I think I'll forever be sticking to 4 Abrupt Decay. Hits Jitte, Delver, Cage. No harm in siding all 4 against BUG delver (which sides in 2 cage now), death/taxes, UWR, etc...
So I live in the Birmingham/Atlanta area and i'm trying to prepare for the open soon. The meta is a lot of fair decks and decks with STP. So a lot of deathblade, Jund, BUG, and not as much storm, reanimator, or miracles. My current maindeck is:
Creatures: 30
1 Llanowar Elves
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Quirion Ranger
2 Birchlore Rangers
3 Heritage Druid
3 Nettle Sentinel
4 Wirewood Symbiote
4 Elvish Visionary
2 Craterhoof Behemoth
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Wren's Run Packmaster
Spells: 11
4 Glimpse of Nature
4 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Natural Order
Land: 19
2 Dryad Arbor
2 Forest
2 Bayou
4 Gaea's Cradle
4 Windswept Heath
4 Wooded Foothills
1 Pendelhaven
Currently my SB is something like this. I'm not 100% satisfied with it because I'd love to find room for either Meekstone, Ruric Thar, Elderscale Wurm, or Worldspine Wurm, but I can tinker with the numbers later.
SB: 3 Abrupt Decay
SB: 3 Cabal Therapy
SB: 2 Thoughtseize
SB: 2 Pithing Needle
SB: 1 Null Rod
SB: 1 Sylvan Library
SB: 1 Choke
SB: 1 Natural Order
SB: 1 Progenitus
Now I'm considering going the 4 Blood Moon plan because it makes decks like Deathblade, BUG, etc into a bye if I can land an early moon but at the same time, Blood Moon doesn't do anything to make my bad matchups better (Miracles, fast combo). If I do run Blood Moon, i'll probably add a Taiga maindeck and make my SB this:
SB: 3 Abrupt Decay
SB: 2 Cabal Therapy
SB: 2 Thoughtseize
SB: 1 Progenitus
SB: 1 Null Rod
SB: 1 Pithing Needle
SB: 1 Natural Order
SB: 4 Blood Moon
I know there isn't as much fast combo or miracles as traditional greedy mana base fair decks, but I don't want the chance to just randomly lose to them since i'd have to drop the amount of miracle hate (3 Abrupt decays, 1 needle, 1 null rod) and combo hate (only 4 discard) to accommodate blood moon. Is it worth it to hope to dodge bad matchups by making even-good matchups a lot better, or is it better to just try to go even against the field. Or I can focus my SB more and try to dodge either miracles or storm as opposed to a little of both and basically just make my matchup REALLY bad against either or by playing these.
"fuck you miracles"
SB: 4 Abrupt Decay
SB: 2 Thoughtseize
SB: 1 Choke
SB: 1 Sylvan Library
SB: 1 Null Rod
SB: 2 Pithing Needle
SB: 4 Blood Moon
or
"fuck you combo"
SB: 3 Abrupt Decay
SB: 3 Cabal Therapy
SB: 3 Thoughtseize
SB: 1 Progenitus
SB: 1 Natural Order
SB: 4 Blood Moon
Opinions?
@ AznSeal
My sb is this:
4 Thoughtseize
2 Duress
4 Abrupt Decay
2 Pithing Needle
1 Null Rod
1 Progenitus
1 Elderscale Wurm (autowin the mirror?)
4th NO is in the main. Which is excellent in many matchups where you want to be faster than them: Mirror match, burn, fast combo. I also like the 4th main because it gets discarded or easily countered. I always want more! Someone said here (can't remember who) that they've lost way more games because they didn't draw NO than drawing too many...
Personally, just try to be good against anything. Stuff like Choke is too narrow and as for meekstone..I think the 4th decay is just better. Killing delvers and jittes is just too good. Also, graf cage is REALLY popular now. The decks that side it in also play delvers, stoneforge, etc.
I really wanted to side in thoughtseize vs delver but didn't like the life loss. I replaced therapy with duress to apply to this matchup as well.
Ah interesting. What did you cut for the 4th NO MD? Or are you running 61 cards. And I can see the argument for meekstone and choke, but no library?Quote:
Originally Posted by Blastoderm
A note on Elderscale Wurm: I actually lost a mirror match at SCG Worcester this past weekend to Elderscale, and was quite impressed with its usefulness in such a situation. However, after reading these rulings on Gatherer, I'm not sure if it's really that great:Quote:
Originally Posted by Blastoderm
7/1/2012 Elderscale Wurm's last ability doesn't affect the loss or payment of life.
7/1/2012 If you have less than 7 life, damage dealt to you reduces your life total as normal.
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe that even if you resolved a NO and got Elderscale into play, your opponent could still just Deathrite you for 2 life, reducing you below 7, and then kill you normally with damage.
I actually cut my blue splash and put in Pendelhaven instead of the Tropical Island replacing the 3 Swan Song in the board with 2 Cabal Therapy and an Elderscale Wurm. Like it so far but haven't played Storm or Sneak and Show were I really like the Swan Songs. Beat Infect, Burn, and UR Delver losing to BUG Delver this week.
@Elderscale Wurm
I been liking this against Burn and UR Delver. You don't bring it in against Deathrite decks.
@Melira
Melira seems narrow and is not worth it unless Infect is really popular in your area. You can just block the Glistener Elf plus you have Pithing Needle for their Inkmoth and Abrupt Decay for Blighted Agent. Both cards are good in other match ups.
@Ruric Thar
I been running Ruric Thar main deck for awhile and it is so good against Burn and Storm provided they don't just kill you before you get it out. Is pretty good versus the UR cruise delver as well. Decent back up plan against decks that don't run Swords to Plowshares.
@Atikin
UWR delver you want Null Rod and Pithing Needle or two to stop Umezawa's Jitte, Sword of Fire and Ice and Grim Lavamancer as well as 3-4 Abrupt Decay. couple Thoughtseize can be decent to take their equipment as well.
UR cruise Delver Elderscale wurm is pretty good or just good old Progenitus and the 4th Natural Order along with 3-4 Abrupt Decay.
@Tammit67
Not sure I like Disfigure seems very narrow would run 4 Abrupt Decay before I even think about running the first Disfigure.
@Blastoderm
Strongly considering going up to 4 Abrupt Decay in the board or maybe 3 Abrupt Decay and a second Reclaimation Sage since you can Zenith for the Sage. It solves many problems.
@AznSeal
Do not like Bloodmoon in Elves since it hampers you dramatically and by the time you get it down turn 2 or 3 they have Daze and Spell Pierce available or can float mana for Abrupt Decay/Golgari Charm. It is really good in Painter or Sneak and Show where you can play it turn 1 or 2 with possible Force of Will back up.
I run Ruric Thar main deck because it is the best way to beat Burn and Storm. I would cut Llanowar Elves for Ruric Thar.
Current list:
4 DRS
4 Quirion
4 Symbiote
4 Visionary
2 Birch
3 Nettle
3 Heritage
1 Hoof
1 Ruric
1 Packmaster
1 Recla Sage
1 Ooze
4 Glimpse
4 GSZ
4 NO
20 land w/P.Haven
SB:
3/3 discard
4 Decay
1 Prog
1 Library
2 Needle
1 Rod
The big thing for me is the 1 Hoof. I like 4 NO, I like Packmaster (especially for making GSZ@4 absurd) entirely too much to cut it, yet I live in Europe where combo is big. But with 2 Hoofs you just start accumulating too much clunk, so I'm trying to diversify. Packmaster and Ruric usually take over the games where they land so I should be fine if I draw a Hoof. Keeps a nice saturation of bombs in the deck so you can do that "topdeck I win card" thing that nedleeds hates.
Board is adapted from Riley Curran's list here, pretty much just hating bad matchups and solving problems. Jitte seems interesting as extra removal and a pain for Miracles, but went for the 6th discard spell. Should probably actually be the Jitte, need to do testing vs. combo to determine that.
They still have to hit you to 7 to make DRS able to get you under 7 by the loss of life. Which means you will stop the first Craterhoof swing at least. (one thing to note is that Elderscale only sets your life to 7 if you are under 7)Quote:
Originally Posted by Kronicler
That being said I would bring it in, in the mirror but would only grab it if Craterhoof would not get me there.
You make a sideboard-strategy out of having NO/GSZ + a bazillion mana before your opponent does in the mirror!? Lol, doodQuote:
Originally Posted by Krasman
No I cut cards that are useless in the mirror for cards that are better.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lemnear
I was considering library but it doesn't save me from Delvers or Jittes. UR delver is now running 2 grafdigger's cage sb and so is BUG. UWR has grafdigger's as well as some lavamancers. These are too many must kill targets. However I noticed that UR and BUG are not running spell pierce which is the card that annoys me the most. I think it's a good time to play 4 NO main. Delver decks without spell pierce I think are favorable matchups. UWR is still a problem though.Quote:
Originally Posted by AznSeal
Maindeck is pretty standard but no WRP.
1 Llanowar Elves
1 Birchlore
3 Heritage Druid
3 Nettle Sentinel
1 Reclamation Sage
1 Scavenging Ooze
4 Wirewood symbiote
4 Quirion Ranger
4 Elvish Visionary
4 Glimpse of Nature
4 GSZ
4 NO
2 Craterhoof
9 Fetch
2 Arbor
4 Cradle
3 Forest
2 Bayou
A little off topic but does anyone have any interesting alerts for elves? I was thinking about getting lederhosen on craterhoof so i can "das hoof" or do most people to iffy in their lgs with alters?