[Deck] Death and Taxes

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Originally Posted by raikenxy

I'll make it easy for everyone... The splash is not worth it. The deck already does what gaddock teeg does in preventing decks from playing certain spells. worsening the mana base to play nonbos like abrupt decay along with Thalia is not neccessry in the current field. The deck is already finely tuned for te current meta and has great matchups against both delver and miracles and the peeve last combo decks outside of elves (preboard). Blood moon and price of progress are cards that exist in the meta and stifle has not completely gone away ... There's no reason to give other decks free wins against us just to add cards to the deck that aren't necessary.

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Presenting your opinion as fact does not make it such. Yes, the general consensus was that the monowhite version was the best one, but that was months ago. Things change as new cards get printed and the meta adjusts. Teeg offers a very powerful new tool, and, while some of the monowhite cards have overlapping functionality with it, none is quite as good in the current meta. Truly, I've already discussed it at lenght in my previous post.

People will always be resistant to change. We love having stable certainties, and if X has proven to be the right choice in the past, we are loathe to consider reasons why it might not be so anymore.

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Originally Posted by Luca Grease

Presenting your opinion as fact does not make it such. Yes, the general consensus was that the monowhite version was the best one, but that was months ago. Things change as new cards get printed and the meta adjusts. Teeg offers a very powerful new tool, and, while some of the monowhite cards have overlapping functionality with it, none is quite as good in the current meta. Truly, I've already discussed it at lenght in my previous post.

People will always be resistant to change. We love having stable certainties, and if X has proven to be the right choice in the past, we are loathe to consider reasons why it might not be so anymore.

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:really:

How is Teeg a new tool? People have been tinkering with green and black splashes for litterally years. So far, consensus still seems to be that the mono white version is superior. That said, hats off for people experimenting continually.

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Originally Posted by nevilshute

:really:

How is Teeg a new tool? People have been tinkering with green and black splashes for litterally years. So far, consensus still seems to be that the mono white version is superior. That said, hats off for people experimenting continually.

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"new" as in "not available in mono-white DnT". Also its broader usefulness is something recent that came about with new printings.

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Originally Posted by Luca Grease

"new" as in "not available in mono-white DnT". Also its broader usefulness is something recent that came about with new printings.

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If these new printings your rendering too are dig through time and treasure cruise then teeg still isn't worth it. TC is the only card in delver decks that teeg hits ... The only one. That's 4 cards at maximum. If your keeping teeg in to combat that card against an archetype death and taxes preys upon then ur mis sideboarding. dtt doesn't see anywhere near as much play as TC for me to consider running teeg when Thalia makes dig through time cost an additional mana/delve anyway.

So why would we need that card ? For miracles ? Even with teeg and GSz maverick as a deck got pushed to extinction because of the popularity of miracles and terminus which eat that deck alive, regardless of the silver bullet teeg which still gets countered by cb, force, and dies to swords just like every other targetable creature.

Teeg isn't necessary, the power and ability of dnt versus the archetypes mentioned above comes from it's ability to interact on the stack via aether vial which is not run in maverick (excluding vial maverick which is another archetype where I feel your brewing will lead you too)

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Originally Posted by raikenxy

If these new printings your rendering too are dig through time and treasure cruise then teeg still isn't worth it. TC is the only card in delver decks that teeg hits ... The only one.

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Uhhh... Force of Will?

Also, Dig and Cruise can both bury us hard. Teeg is more like Revoker than Thalia in this respect; he hits a narrow, yet otherwise problematic, selection of popular cards.

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Originally Posted by Barbed Blightning

Uhhh... Force of Will?

Also, Dig and Cruise can both bury us hard. Teeg is more like Revoker than Thalia in this respect; he hits a narrow, yet otherwise problematic, selection of popular cards.

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Touché on the fact check. I did forget to mention force, I'm humbled and off my apologies. I will however say force of will is such a bad card against dnt I wouldn't even consider it as something that needs to be addressed. If an opponent doesn't force of will an Aether vial the card is dead, and if they don't force of will teeg as it's played it's also dead. I'd rather stick to game plan of making the cards they draw as unplayable as possible then add unnecessary cards at the expense of the decks core functionality: a sum of all parts victory.

We can sit and come up with abstract reasons why certain cards and deckbuilding choices might or might not be worth it, but all that speculation means very little until you put it to the test. I was a firm believer in mono-white DnT, but testing lately has convinced me that a change is needed to keep up. The truth is, Treasure Cruise is, unsurprisingly, a problem for this deck. Matchups that used to be very favorable are no longer such when the opponent can draw 3 every 3 or 4 turns. Blue decks can simply exhaust their resources by trading 1-for-1, or even 1-for-2, and then refuel, burying whatever we have left in a relentless onslaught of removal spells and threats. Even Force of Will actually becomes pretty good against DnT when you have access to multiple ancestral recalls. A well-timed Teeg can turn the situation against them: let them deplete their hand to get rid of mom, Thalia and SFM, then stick a teeg and watch their lategame plan crumble...
However, TC decks are not the real reason why I want to be splashing for Teeg right now: if that was the case, I'd just run 4 Spirits of the Labyrinth in the maindeck. Rather, it is the decks that are picking up in popularity to combat treasure cruise that make Teeg such a strong card right now, namely Miracles and combo. Storm and Elves are pretty much cold to it, but Miracles is probably the ripest target. Your argument that Teeg isn't that good against Miracles because Maverick traditionally had a bad matchup against it is flawed for more reasons than I care to list. DnT is not Maverick: we run Aether Vial, more mana denial, Phyrexian Revoker, and sometimes Mangara of Corondor (I refuse to drop the singleton copy from my mainboard). Also, Spirit of the Labyrinth wasn't around back then, and that card is pretty bad for Miracles. Our matchup against that deck is already pretty decent, but it becomes very favorable with Teeg. Their only real out to it (except from the occasional 1-of council's judgement) is Swords to Plowshares, and we have Mother of Runes and Karakas to negate that, not to mention that they'll often be forced to use it on another creature beforehand.
If you'd ever tested seriously against Miracles you'd know that the CB lock, while occasionally locking us out of games, is not very high on the list of our worries in that matchup, due to Aether Vial and Phyrexian Revoker (and, to a lesser extent, Flickerwisp). In fact, opponents will often side their CBs out against us.
It's stuff like Terminus, Jace, Entreat, Supreme Verdict, and Dig Through Time that they'll rely on against us, and Teeg effectively invalidates all of their bombs against us.
I've just tested against Miracles yesterday and I can assure you Teeg simply wins a lot of games against them, either by straight out locking them out or by forcing them to spend a lot of time and resources in getting rid of it (more than once, my opponent had to waste several turns digging for 2 copies of StP when I had Teeg+Karakas up). As an icing on the cake, the small green splash allows you to run sideboard cards that are powerhouses in themselves against Miracles, such as Sylvan Library or Choke.

If I had to stick with monowhite, I'd probably run 4 Spirits of the Labyrinth in the maindeck, as I feel that we absolutely need a consistent answer to Treasure Cruise, but a 2/2 split with Teeg seems like a much more attractive and all-around powerful alternative right now. Having something that hoses the most popular control and combo decks while still stopping Treasure Cruise just seems too good to pass up. Also, being a legendary 2/2 is pretty big in a world of forked bolts and elemental tokens...

EDIT: vial Maverick is something I have considered, but I still find myself liking 95% of the DnT shell very much. I just don't see the need for cards like Weathered Wayfarer right now (although, to be fair, Sylvan Safekeeper would probably come in pretty handy in the current meta).

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Originally Posted by raikenxy

Touché on the fact check. I did forget to mention force, I'm humbled and off my apologies. I will however say force of will is such a bad card against dnt I wouldn't even consider it as something that needs to be addressed. If an opponent doesn't force of will an Aether vial the card is dead, and if they don't force of will teeg as it's played it's also dead. I'd rather stick to game plan of making the cards they draw as unplayable as possible then add unnecessary cards at the expense of the decks core functionality: a sum of all parts victory.

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I like a good slapfight as much as any Sourcer, but I'll keep it brief: Force is still good at hitting critical spells--Swords especially. Being able to more or less guarantee that midgame removal is actually quite potent in the tempo matchup. I'm obviously not saying the Teeg is needed for that, or that stopping FoW is the reason to run him; it's just a secondary benefit of the card.

Other experienced pilots like SwordstoTimeshares advocate a light splash into Teeg because he helps in a vast number of difficult or poor matchups. Miracles, Elves, Storm, and Stoneblade each have their fair share of cards that Teeg shuts off, most of which are game-enders; this isn't something to dismiss so casually. The proposed manabase (4 fetch, 2 Savannah, 1 Canopy) doesn't hurt the deck all that much and given that we are best equipped to protect and play Teeg (Vial/Karakas, Mom, Sword of F&I, etc) of any other deck in Legacy (save for maybe Vial Mav, thanks for reminding me Luca) I think he merits testing. If I could justify the $200+ for fetches and Savannahs I would very much be on the Teeg plan.

This isn't to discount or say that Mono White is somehow inferior; it isn't. Teeg just opens up possibilities for the deck.

I get the sense that some people think if we splash green that were just playing Maverick. This can't be further from the case. The splash is literally just a splash, not a complete overhaul of the deck. The mana base is slightly weaker but I feel this is offset by the reduction of Wastelands in the current meta. It's a calculated risk which I think works for DnT at this time, I can't say it will always be the case.

I know Teeg is considered by some to be "narrow" or even redundant since other cards help to do "similar" things in our deck, but I think it's a great option for fighting Treasure Cruise which is the formats darling (much the way TNN was last year). It's true hate for Treasure Cruise, let's not kid ourselves here. However, by hating out on one of the most played cards in the format, you also get to shut down win cons of other decks. All the sudden this "narrow" card doesn't appear to be all that narrow anymore.

Personally, despite Death and Taxes success the past couple of years, I feel this deck needs to continuously be looking for viable cards to test in order for the deck to remain ahead of the pack.

I think the splash is meta dependent so the obligatory YMMV is appropriate here, but if there was ever a good time to splash, that time is now.

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Originally Posted by Technicolor Mage

I get the sense that some people think if we splash green that were just playing Maverick

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This x1000. Because the consensus has been for so long that DnT is better off as mono-white, and because there's a GW deck that utilizes some of the same cards, people have been conditioned to snap out "you might as well play maverick" any time splashing green is discussed. A lot of the "arguments" I read against it just look like post-hoc rationalizations people come up with because they are too lazy to seriously (re)consider the idea in light of the new legacy landscape. Most of it amounts either to "DnT already fights deck x this way, we don't need other tools, no matter how powerful and broad they are", or "matchup y is just hopeless anyway, no point in trying to fix it at the expense of other matchups (even though the tool you're suggesting does not actually make other matchups worse).

Once people come to a definitive decision (mono-white is the way to go), they really don't like having to re-evaluate constantly in the light of changing conditions, but this is a necessary process if we want to stay on top. Legacy has been experiencing massive changes in the last few years, and every time, DnT has had to adapt. First it was DRS and Abrupt Decay, then True-name Nemesis. In both cases, while the core of the deck remained intact, certain cards were trimmed down or cut altogether and new ones introduced (Mirran Crusader, Aven Mindcensor), or old ones dusted off (Serra Avenger, SoFI). As a general rule, "new" cards take quite a bit longer to gain mainstream acceptance than old "veterans" that proved their worth in the past.
Now, it's time to adapt to Treasure Cruise: the way the meta is shifting, splashing for Teeg looks really promising to me, but, if that's not your cup of tea, you better find some alternative. Run 4 Sotl, maindeck a singleton RiP along a tutor package, whatever. But adapt you must.

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Originally Posted by Luca Grease

This x1000. Because the consensus has been for so long that DnT is better off as mono-white, and because there's a GW deck that utilizes some of the same cards, people have been conditioned to snap out "you might as well play maverick" any time splashing green is discussed. A lot of the "arguments" I read against it just look like post-hoc rationalizations people come up with because they are too lazy to seriously (re)consider the idea in light of the new legacy landscape. Most of it amounts either to "DnT already fights deck x this way, we don't need other tools, no matter how powerful and broad they are", or "matchup y is just hopeless anyway, no point in trying to fix it at the expense of other matchups (even though the tool you're suggesting does not actually make other matchups worse).

Once people come to a definitive decision (mono-white is the way to go), they really don't like having to re-evaluate constantly in the light of changing conditions, but this is a necessary process if we want to stay on top. Legacy has been experiencing massive changes in the last few years, and every time, DnT has had to adapt. First it was DRS and Abrupt Decay, then True-name Nemesis. In both cases, while the core of the deck remained intact, certain cards were trimmed down or cut altogether and new ones introduced (Mirran Crusader, Aven Mindcensor), or old ones dusted off (Serra Avenger, SoFI). As a general rule, "new" cards take quite a bit longer to gain mainstream acceptance than old "veterans" that proved their worth in the past.
Now, it's time to adapt to Treasure Cruise: the way the meta is shifting, splashing for Teeg looks really promising to me, but, if that's not your cup of tea, you better find some alternative. Run 4 Sotl, maindeck a singleton RiP along a tutor package, whatever. But adapt you must.

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Did it ever occur to you that maybe the definitive decision was come to through testing ? You assume people who prefer the mono white list are too lazy to test the green, or too lazy to test match ups as you've more then once done. I'm not going to add fuel to the fire, and I don't mean to be confrontational but I disagree with you completely. I've played this deck for years. I've experimented with splashes from black to green and it's not necessary. Ur delver with cruise is still a 90/10 match up in our favor due to the high density threats we run that they don't have enough answers to deal with. Specifically Sotl, stoneforge, Thalia, and mother of runes. Miracles will always be a match up that is play skill dependent, but if you land an Aether vial and are girly confident you'll prlly win that game with or without teeg. But please don't insult people who disagree with you by calling them lazy. A lot of us have done our hw ;) and have tested the card you feel is so promising.

No need to rustle your jimmies pal, I hardly insulted anyone. If you're 90/10 against ur more power to you, but you'll forgive me if I consider that claim to be hurting your credibility. Peace out.

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Originally Posted by raikenxy

Did it ever occur to you that maybe the definitive decision was come to through testing ? You assume people who prefer the mono white list are too lazy to test the green, or too lazy to test match ups as you've more then once done. I'm not going to add fuel to the fire, and I don't mean to be confrontational but I disagree with you completely. I've played this deck for years. I've experimented with splashes from black to green and it's not necessary. Ur delver with cruise is still a 90/10 match up in our favor due to the high density threats we run that they don't have enough answers to deal with. Specifically Sotl, stoneforge, Thalia, and mother of runes. Miracles will always be a match up that is play skill dependent, but if you land an Aether vial and are girly confident you'll prlly win that game with or without teeg. But please don't insult people who disagree with you by calling them lazy. A lot of us have done our hw ;) and have tested the card you feel is so promising.

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Claiming matchups being 90/10 is so obviously wrong that it makes every other point of your statement at least questionable.

hey guys, is there some quick sideboarding guide for death and taxes to read ? I couldn't find one...

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Originally Posted by Technicolor Mage

I feel this deck needs to continuously be looking for viable cards to test in order for the deck to remain ahead of the pack.

I think the splash is meta dependent so the obligatory YMMV is appropriate here, but if there was ever a good time to splash, that time is now.

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This is definitely the take away.

I've been really happy with the light Green splash for the past couple months.

5 Plains
4 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland
3 Karakas
2 Savannah
1 Arid Mesa
1 Marsh Flats
1 Windswept Heath
1 Flooded Strand
1 Horizon Canopy

4 Mother of Runes
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Flickerwisp
3 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Serra Avenger
2 Gaddock Teeg
1 Spirit of the Labyrinth
1 Mangara of Condor
1 Mirran Crusader

4 Aether Vial
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Batterskull

2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Rest In Peace
2 Council's Judgment
1 Gut Shot
1 Pithing Needle
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Containment Preist
1 Absolute Law
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Aura Shards

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Originally Posted by from Cairo

1 Aura Shards

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OMG, THANK YOU for mentioning this awesome piece of tech! I actually have one sitting in one of my old binders but it probably wouldn't have occurred to me unless I was browsing through it for some reason... Vialing in a creature in response to an attack with a jitte is like a wet dream... Which matchups would you bring this in? Stoneblade, Miracles and Shardless seem like the obvious answers (along fringe stuff like Painter, Tezzerator, Enchantress, etc), but a lot of other decks are trying to fight us with stuff like pithing needle, sulfuric vortex, null rod, and Engineered Plague, so I wonder if it's worth bringing in more often...

When we're at old techs: is Longbow Archer good against Delver decks?

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Originally Posted by Bed Decks Palyer

When we're at old techs: is Longbow Archer good against Delver decks?

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Good against the creature Delver of Secrets? Sure, it is.
Good against Delver decks? Not so much. We just need more impactful cards.

As much as I'd like to go old school with it, Longbow Archer is just too narrow/underpowered for the maindeck, and we have more impactful cards to put in our sideboard. Just my 2 cents.

i'm afraid you're right. It stops Delver the creature but it does very little against Delver the deck.

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Originally Posted by Luca Grease

OMG, THANK YOU for mentioning this awesome piece of tech! I actually have one sitting in one of my old binders but it probably wouldn't have occurred to me unless I was browsing through it for some reason... Vialing in a creature in response to an attack with a jitte is like a wet dream... Which matchups would you bring this in? Stoneblade, Miracles and Shardless seem like the obvious answers (along fringe stuff like Painter, Tezzerator, Enchantress, etc), but a lot of other decks are trying to fight us with stuff like pithing needle, sulfuric vortex, null rod, and Engineered Plague, so I wonder if it's worth bringing in more often...

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I mostly am using it against Stoneforge Mystic decks. It is very good in the mirror - targeting Equipment, Revokers, Spirit of the Lab, and Aether Vial. As you mention there are a ton of fringe match ups, some where it's worth boarding the ETutor in with it. You mentioned the big ones (Miracles, Shardless, Tezz, Painter) but also - MUD or Affinity.

I usually don't bring Aura Shards in unless I'm fairly sure there are 3+ targets that matter - Equipment, Sylvan Library, Counterbalance, Phyrexian Revoker and combo kills (Painter+Grind, Thopter+Sword). I'm running the 2x Council's Judgment as my catch all removal to board against something like BUG Delver that might have a Null Rod - just so it could kill a Planeswalker or Creature if Null Rod wasn't a factor.

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Originally Posted by from Cairo

I usually don't bring Aura Shards in unless I'm fairly sure there are 3+ targets that matter - Equipment, Sylvan Library, Counterbalance, Phyrexian Revoker and combo kills (Painter+Grind, Thopter+Sword). I'm running the 2x Council's Judgment as my catch all removal to board against something like BUG Delver that might have a Null Rod - just so it could kill a Planeswalker or Creature if Null Rod wasn't a factor.

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Yes, after I got over my initial enthusiasm and did some thinking I realized there's only a handful of top tier decks Aura Shards is worth bringing in against. The mirror is probably the most prominent one. Most SFM decks are only running 2 artifacts and Miracles are often siding CB out against us. Council's Judgement is obviously better when the opponent only has a couple of targets in their deck. Still, against the right decks that card is devastating, and the meta in local tournaments is always a lot more varied than what SCG top8s would suggest. I guess I will test and see...

Yea in an open meta I've found it to be a good piece of utility. In the past DnT ETutor boards have run Serenity and in this archetype Aura Shards is considerably better. In regards to Stoneblade usually only having 2ish Artifacts I completely agree, but with one of them being Umezawa's Jitte and their 4 ways to find it and often TNN to carry it, I have found Aura Shards to be worth the slot in the match. As a non-Creature we can deploy Shards even against an active Jitte and any of our top decked 25ish guys Disenchant serve to Disenchant - in this case Shards maybe isn't too far off from a 3rd Council's Judgment, but it has the side benefits of bomby implications in some matches. So far it's been worth the slot in maybe the dozen events I've played with the list.

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Originally Posted by from Cairo

This is definitely the take away.

I've been really happy with the light Green splash for the past couple months.

5 Plains
4 Rishadan Port
4 Wasteland
3 Karakas
2 Savannah
1 Arid Mesa
1 Marsh Flats
1 Windswept Heath
1 Flooded Strand
1 Horizon Canopy

4 Mother of Runes
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Flickerwisp
3 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Serra Avenger
2 Gaddock Teeg
1 Spirit of the Labyrinth
1 Mangara of Condor
1 Mirran Crusader

4 Aether Vial
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Batterskull

2 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Rest In Peace
2 Council's Judgment
1 Gut Shot
1 Pithing Needle
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Containment Preist
1 Absolute Law
1 Oblivion Ring
1 Aura Shards

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Nice tech on Aura Shards. I forgot about that card and the situational destruction is perfect. Niche, but crushes a handful of decks!

Here is my current list I am experimenting with
[deck]

4 Mother of Runes
3 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Gaddock Teeg
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2 Serra Avenger
1 Spirit of the Labyrinth
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Flickerwisp
1 Mangara of Corondor
1 Mirran Crusader

1 Sword of Fire and Ice
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Aether Vial
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Elbrus, the Binding Blade

5 Plains
4 Rishadan Port
2 Savannah
1 Horizon Canopy
3 Karakas
4 Wasteland
4 Windswept Heath


1 Absolute Law
1 Aven Mindcensor
2 Council's Judgment
1 Enlightened Tutor
2 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Pithing Needle
1 Ratchet Bomb
2 Rest in Peace
1 Spirit of the Labyrinth
1 Sunlance
1 Sylvan Library
[/deck]

Sunlance or Gut shot, I have used both, going back to gut shot though because I think it's more versatile and i think our versatility is one of our strengths.
Library has been useful at times, but you really need to be sure that you need that card. Aura shards will be going in this slot for testing.
Aven Mindscensor flies and is another tool required in my meta. Results are mixed as one would expect for a singleton, feels like Magical Christmas land when it works though.
Elbrus, the Blinding Blade was just a pet card of mine. I tested it out and was surprised by the results. I think I just like the surprise on my opponents face when I SFM into Elbrus, it's been priceless. Yes, I have been stuck with it in my hand, yes it eats removal frequently, and yes, I have laid serious beats with it. It's about 33/33/33 ratio which for the most part, puts it in similar statistics as batterskull for me. I lose the life gain, it's hard to cast, but if it sticks, it's a two turn clock.

Now, before you tell me I have lost all my credibility let me say that I am not going to advocate using it because it's completely out in left field, but I have found it entertaining.

Elbrus is hilarious, and it might even work pretty well if the opponent isn't expecting it. Sylvan library is sweet against certain decks, but due to the nonbo with SoTL, I've decided to replace it with Choke. Seriously, that card is as devastating as it gets, hits most of the field at the moment, and it fits into our denial plan, especially with rishadan port. It just seems to good to pass up. Another card that looks too good to pass up at the moment is a singleton Brimaz in the main, given that most removal is red-based and people are trying to clog the ground with tokens and Swiftspears, but I've noticed neither you nor Cairo are running it... what are your thoughts on that?

My mainboard looks very similar to yours, except I run 1 Brimaz instead of the 4th flickerwisp, and the 2nd Spirit instead of the 3rd Revoker. I feel like the cards somewhat overlap in functionality, but Spirit stops more cards in the current meta, and I like having 4 maindeck ways to stop TC. Also, multiple Revokers in g1 are really bad against certain decks.

EDIT: my sb currently looks like this

2 Containment Priest
2 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Pithing Needle
1 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Rest in Peace
1 Absolute Law
1 CoP: Red (this might become Aura Shards or some other tech instead, since I'm hard pressed to find room for it even against U/R delver, essentially relegating it to just anti-burn tech)
1 Choke
2 Enlightened Tutor
2 Council's Judgement

By the way, what do you guys side out against U/R Delver and U/W/R Stoneblade? I find myself having more cards to bring in than obvious side-outs. Especially against U/W/R, you know you want to bring in CJ, Choke, and probably Absolute Law, but what are you taking out exactly? Everything in the main seems to have its application, except perhaps Mirran Crusader and Batterskull. Also, Pithing Needle might be better than a Revoker here, being able to lockdown Jitte without dying to Plow or burn...

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Originally Posted by Luca Grease

Elbrus is hilarious, and it might even work pretty well if the opponent isn't expecting it. Sylvan library is sweet against certain decks, but due to the nonbo with SoTL, I've decided to replace it with Choke. Seriously, that card is as devastating as it gets, hits most of the field at the moment, and it fits into our denial plan, especially with rishadan port. It just seems to good to pass up. Another card that looks too good to pass up at the moment is a singleton Brimaz in the main, given that most removal is red-based and people are trying to clog the ground with tokens and Swiftspears, but I've noticed neither you nor Cairo are running it... what are your thoughts on that?

My mainboard looks very similar to yours, except I run 1 Brimaz instead of the 4th flickerwisp, and the 2nd Spirit instead of the 3rd Revoker. I feel like the cards somewhat overlap in functionality, but Spirit stops more cards in the current meta, and I like having 4 maindeck ways to stop TC. Also, multiple Revokers in g1 are really bad against certain decks.

EDIT: my sb currently looks like this

2 Containment Priest
2 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Pithing Needle
1 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Rest in Peace
1 Absolute Law
1 CoP: Red (this might become Aura Shards or some other tech instead, since I'm hard pressed to find room for it even against U/R delver, essentially relegating it to just anti-burn tech)
1 Choke
2 Enlightened Tutor
2 Council's Judgement

By the way, what do you guys side out against U/R Delver and U/W/R Stoneblade? I find myself having more cards to bring in than obvious side-outs. Especially against U/W/R, you know you want to bring in CJ, Choke, and probably Absolute Law, but what are you taking out exactly? Everything in the main seems to have its application, except perhaps Mirran Crusader and Batterskull. Also, Pithing Needle might be better than a Revoker here, being able to lockdown Jitte without dying to Plow or burn...

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Against UR I bring out Mangara and Revokers for Absolute Law, Canonists and a Judgment.

Against UWR it depends on the build - with Delvers I take out Mangara and a Revoker for Council's Judgment. The Stoneblade deck where TNN is a factor I bring out Mangara, an STP and a Gaddock Teeg for 2 Council's Judgment and a Aura Shards.

E-Tutor + Choke fascinates me.

In what match-ups is Aura Shards used for, aside from TNN + equipment decks?

How good has been Priest? I've been out of the loop for a while now.

Well, I for one am super stoked to see the G splash getting some love. Teeg has always been a ringer, and ofc, the advantages that you get from running him main are extremely meta dependant... but damn if I don't like locking out Miracles. Choke seems great out of the board too, something I haven't tried yet.

Usually with the splash I play Grip as a straight improvement over the 2x Disenchant I run in mono-W, but Aura Shards definitely has some play! Nice work [Ali?] fromCairo

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Originally Posted by Barook

In what match-ups is Aura Shards used for, aside from TNN + equipment decks?

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Originally Posted by from Cairo

I mostly am using it against Stoneforge Mystic decks. It is very good in the mirror ... Miracles, Shardless, [UB] Tezz, Painter ... MUD [ Enchantress] or Affinity.

I usually don't bring Aura Shards in unless I'm fairly sure there are 3+ targets that matter - Equipment, Sylvan Library, Counterbalance, Phyrexian Revoker and combo kills (Painter+Grind, Thopter+Sword).

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So over on Salvation, discussion is just starting regarding Qasali Pridemage. Obviously this is a Maverick card but in a deck with vial like ours, this seems like a choice that deserves to be discussed and (re)tested. While I love Aura Shards effect, I tested it a bit yesterday and found that 3 mana (4) with Thalia was pretty steep for the amount of artifacts/enchantments I normally face. Also, I also found it a turn slow most of the time that I drew it.

I am not sure I want to completely remove Revoker from my list of tricks as Frenadol has done with his list, but he does make some good points on why the card is better for us at this time. Since I frequently attack with only one creature, exalted is also a cheeky way for us to push through more damage. My only concern going down this path is how close am I edging towards Maverick, as I stated before, this is suppose to be a splash only.

Dropped Aura shards, Library

Still figuring out the exact way I want to go with this idea, but here is my list I will be testing later today:

4 Mother of Runes
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2 Qasali Pridemage
2 Gaddock Teeg
2 Serra Avenger
1 Spirit of the Labyrinth
4 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Aven Mindcensor
1 Mangara of Corondor
1 Mirran Crusader
4 Flickerwisp

4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Aether Vial
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
1 Umezawa's Jitte

5 Plains
4 Rishadan Port
3 Karakas
4 Wasteland
1 Horizon Canopy
4 Windswept Heath
2 Savannah

The Side: Note, No containment Priest and SotL is back in the board (which may or may not be correct)


1 Absolute Law
1 Choke
2 Council's Judgment
1 Enlightened Tutor
2 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Pithing Needle
1 Ratchet Bomb
2 Rest in Peace
1 Spirit of the Labyrinth

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Originally Posted by Technicolor Mage

My only concern going down this path is how close am I edging towards Maverick, as I stated before, this is suppose to be a splash only.

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This concern should never be a factor, imo. As long as you're experienced with the deck and understand all its inner workings, there's no reason to go against your better judgement in order to fit into a standardized archetype. If you think your manabase can support additional gold/green cards (and you probably want to add another Savannah here, as Frenadol did), and that those gold/green cards are contextually better than something you're already playing, then go ahead. It's the reason we're playing Teeg in the first place. It would make no sense to go against that logic when it comes to other cards.
There's a huge difference between trying to force in elements that don't belong into an archetype before you truly get proficient with it, and being able to constantly evolve your deck to fit the competitive environment precisely because you know it so intimately. The consensus best list is always ever so slightly outdated by definition.

That being said, I'm not sure that cutting Revoker altogether is the right choice. I'm not sure it's wrong either. Pridemage definately has the better body, and the Exhalted trigger can do some work. He's also better in SFM matchups and as versatile hate removal in post-board games (fuck you, dread of night, null rod, and company). On the other hand, Sensei's Divining Top, Sneak Attack, Deathrite Shaman, and Planeswalkers still show up frequently enough. Revoker is also not dead against Elves, which should always be in the back of our minds.
They both have plenty of applications in various fringe match-ups, which are almost impossible to quantify and compare.
One final concern is that Pridemage costs two colored mana in our deck with 8 colorless mana-producing lands. I am loath having too many of those cards, as sometimes you'll be inevitably stuck with Flickerwisp, Teeg, Serra Avenger, and Pridemage in hand with Plains, Port, Port on the board.
All in all, it is a very meta-dependant thing, but I wouldn't fault anyone for wanting to experiment with 2 Pridemages instead of 2 Revokers. I might even give it a shot myself.

As for your list, playing only 1 maindeck spirit just doesn't seem right at the moment. I would shave the 4th flickerwisp to make room for the second. As good as flickerwisp is, you really don't want to have multiples in your opener against a fast deck like UR, especially without a vial or on the draw, and Spirit has never been this good. That being said, more established players than I have gotten results with 1 spirit and 4 flickers, so that is only my opinion.

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Originally Posted by Luca Grease

The consensus best list is always ever so slightly outdated by definition.

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This really resonates with me and I think it's the best piece of advice that can be given to any Legacy player, along with determining whether or not you will play big metas or just your local one. Sideboards are often very different in small metas vs playing 9+ rounds of swiss!

I did some testing and I really like my new list posted above. I did take your advice and put the second SotL in the main, and I dropped Crusader and Mindcensor. Instead I upped Avenger to 3, Mangara to 2, and put another Cage in the board.

Oh, and I didn't completely drop Revoker from my 75, two are in the board. This allows for full Pridemage test and still allows me to bring in Revoker for games 2/3 when necessary.

Decisions, decisions.

If you run 2 Pridemages, you need a minimum of 8 green sources, just saying.

@Luca Grease: Flickerwisp is the workhorse of the deck, plus it adds to the flyer count. Siding it out for specific match-ups is fine, but going below 4 Flickerwisps for the MD configuration is "doing it wrong".

Wasteland is in a serious lull right now. If there was ever a time to run 8+ green sources, now is it. 4 Savannah, 4 fetch, 1 Horizon Canopy? Running relatively few fetches helps a little against Stifle if anyone starts running more of those again.

4 Port
4 Wasteland
3 Karakas
1 Canopy
4 Savannah
4 fetch
3 Plains

Also while I know it's likely heresy I would be interested to experiment with Sylvan Library and shuffle effects, or perhaps Life From The Loam to abuse Wasteland and bring back any of our lands that get trashed. If no one else is playing Wasteland we may as well double down and ruin everyone's day. Yes I'm pretty sure it may not be worth it in the long run, but what the heck.

white doesn't have anything like a GSZ does it? I imagine if it did it would be in here... is there anything even close?

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Originally Posted by apple713

white doesn't have anything like a GSZ does it? I imagine if it did it would be in here... is there anything even close?

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Mono-white? Nah. But if you are splashing green, you have Eladamri's Call and Worldly Tutor. Both are probably too slow for the maindeck though...

@ Barook: 3 Flickerwisp has been considered a legit choice for a while now, and I thought it was still the standard option. Although having shaved on the number of fliers recently, I might want to get the 4th flicker back in over Mirran Crusader... Still, I liked having less X/1's and a wild card against BUG...

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Originally Posted by Luca Grease

Mono-white? Nah. But if you are splashing green, you have Eladamri's Call and Worldly Tutor. Both are probably too slow for the maindeck though...

@ Barook: 3 Flickerwisp has been considered a legit choice for a while now, and I thought it was still the standard option. Although having shaved on the number of fliers recently, I might want to get the 4th flicker back in over Mirran Crusader... Still, I liked having less X/1's and a wild card against BUG...

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i know some decks have been trying a green splash, so would it be too much of a stretch to include birthing pod to pull out the silver bullet creatures when you need them? Seems slow tho?

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Originally Posted by apple713

i know some decks have been trying a green splash, so would it be too much of a stretch to include birthing pod to pull out the silver bullet creatures when you need them? Seems slow tho?

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Pod is expensive (more so with Thalia) and better suited to decks full of creatures with ETB effects. We mostly want to keep our critters in play. We don't play that many silver bullets anyway, we usually either go for playsets or a spread of 1 or 2-ofs with overlapping functionality. I don't think the current creature tutors cut it for this deck.

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Originally Posted by apple713

white doesn't have anything like a GSZ does it?

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http://gatherer.wizards.com/Handlers...1555&type=card

Sorry, had to ;)

So did some testing and have come to a few conclusions.

1) Choke is a beast of a card in a blue meta, BUT, it's 3 or (4) mana with Thalia. Also, while it's great for locking down Islands, FoW is still an issue (obviously) and daze just laughs at the ability. So, it's certainly a powerful card, but I am not sure it's the right fit for me. YMMV and I definitely recommend people test the card, but I found it awkward.

2) I finally put Brimaz back in the deck. Originally he let me down and I immediately went back to my Crusader build. However, King Kitty has been putting in major work and has earned his place for now. I imagine that most of the finishers in DNT or Teeg and Taxes (TnT acronym) builds will be meta dependent and because of that, Crusader/Brimaz/Avenger/Mangara and whomever else takes a turn in the rotation, will all see varying amounts of play over time.

3) I went up to 8 fliers by adding an additional Mindcensor. I was ho-hum about a singleton copy b/c of the magical Christmas land effect rarely happening. By adding the second, I double my chances I will see it early, I trade more often with flipped delvers, and one of my "weak" creatures can actually make it into the red zone (even better if it's carrying equipment). This deck has enough stay at home dudes as it is, so the evasion is a nice effect to have. I think a few mono white DnT players are experimenting with 8 fliers as well at SCG Philly, so we shall see if this gains any traction.

4) Pridemage was decent in testing but the deck has become very tight on space. Ultimately I think we can get by on taxing via thalia and then removing via Mangara/CJ. However, I also think this is a card that deserves testing for anyone playing TnT builds just so you can see if the card works for you. After all, not everyone plays Mangara.

5) I am really happy moving my two copies of Revoker into the board. The card has lots of targets, but can't block and has no evasion. For me the deck is evolving into new territory and I think reducing to 2 in the 75 is the way to go.

6) I am still not using Containment Priest, so my board has room for needle/Ratchet Bomb. I am not sure whether or not this is correct anymore as many lists are running 2 Priests in the board. However, making too many changes all at once can be tough when trying to isolate all the variables that exist. Now that people have been playing Priest for a bit, how are you liking it?


List is as follows

4 Mother of Runes
2 Gaddock Teeg
2 Serra Avenger
2 Spirit of the Labyrinth
4 Stoneforge Mystic
4 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2 Aven Mindcensor
2 Brimaz, King of Oreskos
4 Flickerwisp

4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Aether Vial
1 Batterskull
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice

5 Plains
4 Rishadan Port
2 Savannah
1 Horizon Canopy
3 Karakas
4 Wasteland
4 Windswept Heath

Sideboard:

1 Absolute Law
2 Council's Judgment
1 Enlightened Tutor
2 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Mangara of Corondor
2 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Pithing Needle
1 Ratchet Bomb
2 Rest in Peace

I'm currently getting the cards to DnT, but I don't know if the deck can survive this meta with tc and forked bolt all over the place. I have played DnT alot on Cockatrice and I can't beat UR Delver. Is the deck worth investing into? If tc and dig gets the banhammer, the problem is solved, but what if they don't? Bringing in hate creatues like Spirit of the Labyrinth doesn't fix the problem. They will sooner or later find a bolt, or they just pitch tc to fow.