That's why Misdirection and Divert are so great right now. They turn opponent's Abrupt Decay into card disadvantage for them.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tao
Misdirection and Divert maindeck literally make the BG matchup in MUC's favor.
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That's why Misdirection and Divert are so great right now. They turn opponent's Abrupt Decay into card disadvantage for them.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tao
Misdirection and Divert maindeck literally make the BG matchup in MUC's favor.
And the data doesn't support your claims. You are wrong.Quote:
Originally Posted by MGB
Let's see. 4 Counterspell, 4 Spell Pierce, 4 Force of Will 3 Misdirection, 3 Divert maindeck. Postboard, I'll board into 4 Chalice of the Void, 4 Vendilion Clique, AND 4 Grave hate (whether Grafdigger's Cage or Leyline of the Void).Quote:
Originally Posted by Darkenslight
Good luck beating that in a 2/3 sb match if you're Tin Fins or Rogue Hermit.
I keep winning with this deck whenever I play it. The data must be incomplete.Quote:
Originally Posted by DragoFireheart
And then I play Jace on turn 4 , fateseal him until I end the game with the ultimate?Quote:
Originally Posted by ThediscoPower
And in G2 and G3 I board in 4 Vendilion Clique additionally which give me yet another clock.
http://www.tcdecks.net/tipo.php?arch...&format=LegacyQuote:
Originally Posted by MGB
Please show me which decks are yours.
It's amazing how ridiculously closed-minded people are in this game and specifically this format. I guess there's a reason all of the Type 2 pros laugh at the Legacy regulars and consider this format highly underdeveloped: everyone would rather dismiss wide deviations or even slight variations of existing decks off-hand and make wild claims like "this is no different from a Type 2 deck from 15 years ago" instead of actually critically analyze specific card choices and matchup results of stuff they haven't played before.
I don't have the money or the time to play in big tournaments. I mostly play locally or online.Quote:
Originally Posted by DragoFireheart
I thought this thread and these forums was for serious, honest discussion about deck archetypes for all people who play this format, whether big-time tournament regulars or not? Instead, what I see here is people who DON'T EVEN PLAY THE DECK in any venue shouting down innovation and discussion because a certain player who proposes ideas has not made a strong tournament presence.
And no, you don't have to be a big tournament player to have a competent handle on the format and the metagames.
Quote:
Originally Posted by MGB
No offense, but this discussion should probably go into the New and Developmental Decks. It's one thing if the deck did perform exceptionally well and simply had an off day due to a shifting meta (goblins for example). It's another when the deck almost ceases to exist because it's clearly out classed (UG Madness for example). MUC is the latter and not the former. Just because you have had success in casual games doesn't make this deck good in the meta like you claim it should.Quote:
Forum: Established Decks
For "finished" decks: Decks which are optimized and thoroughly tested. A deck is not required to have proven itself in a competitive tournament environment to be included in the Open Forum, but it is recommended. A thorough writeup including card choices, strategy, and matchup descriptions is required.
You're completely wrong about this. I play, online and offline, against players with tournament success playing tier 1 archetypes. This deck is legitimately good, and competes with every deck in the format and wins the majority of the time against nearly everything except for Goblins and Merfolk.Quote:
Originally Posted by DragoFireheart
You have zero testing results with this decklist, and only a slight grasp of the theory behind the deck. You are not really qualified to even make claims about the deck's competitiveness until you understand it better and actually test with or against it in its modern incarnation (not crappy old outdated lists, or lists that play suboptimal crap like Propaganda).
Criticism is very important for deck development. If someone posts a dubious decklist with dubious claims the reaction should not be A++++++!!! best deck evar!! so creative!!! If the deck can't stand up to criticism, it's probably not a good deck.Quote:
Originally Posted by MGB
And to pile on, losing hard to combo and aggro doesn't seem to be the winning play in Legacy.
There is a difference between critical analysis, discussion, constructive criticism and just outright shouting someone down and insinuating that they're an idiot and a fool to even question the existing heirarchy.Quote:
Originally Posted by clavio
Also, how does this deck lose hard to combo? Combo is this deck's BEST matchup. It's like you didn't even look at the decklist by making such a ridiculous claim.
The only decks that give my version of MUC problems are FAST aggro. Not midrange aggro, which this deck handles pretty easily. Fast aggro i.e. Vial Goblins, Vial Affinity (although Powder Keg makes it a better matchup), Vial Merfolk and Burn-augmented aggro like Zoo.
I thought you said you don't go to tournaments...?Quote:
Originally Posted by MGB
I guess I could say the same to you since you haven't shown anything other than your word that this deck is a good choice. I think we can both see why this argument is a poor one to make.Quote:
You have zero testing results with this decklist,
As much as I love Shackles, there's a reason it doesn't see much play (hint: it's decaying). Other than Back to Basics, there is nothing that MUC offers over other control decks.
Comments like this one make me wonder if you have as much of a grasp on Legacy as you claim to have. If I went to the Mana Drain and said:Quote:
Now, Brainstorm is not a bad spell, but it's not nearly the auto-include in every single blue deck that people make it out to be.
"Now, Force of Will is not a bad spell, but it's not nearly the auto-include in every single blue deck that people make it out to be", I'd probably get some people flaming me/calling me a troll.
On the contrary, saying this deck beats combo is a "ridiculous claim." From the op:
Your list adds nothing to the matchup. Divert is cute, but it's not going to make a difference. I also don't see how you can ever beat high tide. Even if you have enough counters to make combo fizzle (unlikely), your lack of a clock lets them sit back and build back up again.Quote:
Storm Combo is decidedly not fun. It is actually by far the worst matchup this deck has. You have no clock, and no matter how much countermagic you stockpile a well-timed Orim’s Chant or Abeyance will strip you of any chance to retaliate before the combo player nails your balls to the wall. Can you win? Sure. Will? Almost definitely not.
22 IslandQuote:
Originally Posted by clavio
4 Ancestral Vision
4 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
4 Spell Pierce
3 Divert
3 Misdirection
4 Powder Keg
4 Vedalken Shackles
4 Back to Basics
4 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
This was the list MGB posted. There is no clock and you will run out of counters against combo decks. A resolved Goose will probably mean the end of you. Shackles dies to Abrupt Decay. Back to Basics is the only redeeming feature, but the rest of the deck doesn't work.
Cool story bro, I've had Burn sleeved up since 2005.Quote:
Originally Posted by MGB
No, obviously. It did not have to fight against Ad Nauseam and Past in Flames, or the Storm mechanic either. It did run Whispers of the Muse and Wasteland and Stalking Stones, because sometimes you need to win too. Point is, the decklist you posted doesn't have the best tools to addressing the Legacy format.Quote:
Did Draw go in Standard 15 years ago have Jace? The combination of Back to Basics and Vedalken Shackles? A draw-3 draw spell in Ancestral Vision? Access to the best Counterspell and Force of Will?
Not much different from UW Control?Quote:
To compare a Legacy deck that plays some of the best spells in the format to a Standard deck from 15 years ago is patently ridiculous. This decklist is not even much different from UW control lists except that it doesnt' splash white, and it plays artifact removal like Keg instead of targeted removal like StP.
UW Control has:
* Spot creature removal (StP)
* Mass creature removal (Wrath and Terminus)
* Defensive win conditions (Stoneforge Mystic)
* Artifact and enchantment removal (Disenchant)
* Graveyard hate (RIP)
* Brainstorm
* Twenty four lands
Mono-blue Control has none of these, and Vedalken Shackles, while a sweet card, doesn't solve all your problems. Powder Keg is a nice touch too, but it's too slow to deal with real threats.
Pro Hint: Casting Misdirection or Divert on an Abrupt Decay does this thing called "redirecting" which enables you to CHANGE THE TARGET of that decay to instead target one of his creatures in play, thereby netting you a 2-for-1. Amazing, isn't it?Quote:
Originally Posted by DragoFireheart
Why don't you actually use a thought process and try to understand what Brainstorm actually does.Quote:
Comments like this one make me wonder if you have as much of a grasp on Legacy as you claim to have. If I went to the Mana Drain and said:
"Now, Force of Will is not a bad spell, but it's not nearly the auto-include in every single blue deck that people make it out to be", I'd probably get some people flaming me/calling me a troll.
Do we agree that if fetchlands are not involved, then Brainstorm becomes a mediocre cantrip?Quote:
Brainstorm U
Instant
Draw three cards, then put two cards from your hand on top of your library in any order.
If so, then let's focus on the fetchland issue:
- Playing enough fetchlands to to support Brainstorm means that you have to play probably at the least 10 fetchlands. Over the course of your average game, you will lose 1-2 life at minimum to these fetchlands, and typically at least 2 life. You are spotting all aggro decks you face 2 life, and then you have to factor in life lost to Force of Will, which is usually at least 1 life in a typical game. Down 3 life to aggro = a serious issue.
- Playing fetchlands opens you up to Stifle as a form of mana denial. Not the most common scenario in this format, but still a threat in some tempo decks that use Stifle alongside Daze and Wasteland.
Those are the unnecessary problems you run into if you ditch the all-Island manabase for fetchlands.
Now let's analyze Brainstorm as it is intended to resolve: prior to a fetchland activation (and deck shuffling):
- You are trading a Brainstorm (1) and two cards in your hand (2) for three cards on the top of your library (3). 1+2=3. There is absolutely no card advantage being generated here. What is happening is that you are trading supposedly "dead" cards already in your hand for fresh cards that *may or may not* be dead on top of your library. There is no guarantee that any of those three cards on top of your library will be more useful to you than the two cards you shuffled away. In some situations, the cards on top of your library will be more relevant. In some situations, they won't be. Only in the former situation is Brainstorm ever doing anything of value. To make Brainstorm justified and relevant as a spell, you need to A.) Crack a fetchland following the Brainstorm and B.) find at least one more relevant answer in the top three cards of your library. Then and only then is Brainstorm not mediocre. Of course, these conditions are usually easily met. I'd say in the 10 fetchland deck, these conditions will be met maybe 70-80% of the time.
- The aforementioned trading of "dead" cards in hand for better ones on top of the library happens with far more frequency in a deck that diversifies its answers and bombs into smaller pieces. A deck playing, say, 1-2 of a certain board sweeper needs Brainstorm to give it the maximum chance to find that card in any given game. Mono Blue Control, on the other hand, is a deck built on redundancy. It is the Zoo of Control decks: it operates in multiple 4-ofs of every answer it has. The advantage of Brainstorm giving you access to slightly higher card quality and more of the top cards of your deck is not as valuable an advantage to a deck like MUC that plays 4-ofs of everything it could want. Often the deck will be trading Spell Pierce in hand for Counterspell on the top of the library, or Vedalken Shackles in hand for Powder Keg on top of the library. These answers in both cases are functionally similar. Brainstorm did not dramatically increase my card quality in that instance.
MUC wants to batter the opponent with a mountain of card advantage and redundant answers to opponent's threats. Brainstorm does not significantly help to advance that cause. Ancestral Vision is superior as a generator of card advantage in this deck, and Brainstorm is little more than a cantrip in most situations that forces you to lose life to fetchlands.
I actually lost it with this statement. I don't think you understand how this Brainstorm card works in the context of Legacy. Good luck at the kitchen table!Quote:
Originally Posted by MGB
Let's suppose you are in the situation described above, scenario #1 is with Brainstorm in your deck, and scenario #2 is without.
Under Scenario #1, you would Brainstorm and see 3 dead cards (let's call them Islands). You put two of those islands back, and fetch/shuffle them away. While you didn't gain card advantage, you prevented yourself from drawing those three dead draws.
Under Scenario #2, you would be drawing lands 3 turns in a row. Of course, you probably wouldn't get to the third draw step, because you lost two turns ago from not drawing any business and your opponent resolves a game-winning spell that you couldn't answer.
FWIW - your deck has zero chance against Thrun, the Last Troll. At least UW Control has blockers or Batterskull that can delay or neuter the card. In your deck, you're just dead to it.
This hasn't been true for a number of years. Card Advantage is sweet, but Card Quality and Card Selection offer much better odds of winning games in Legacy. Playing cards like Misdirection and Force of Will actively hinder your goal of Card Advantage.Quote:
MUC wants to batter the opponent with a mountain of card advantage and redundant answers to opponent's threats. Brainstorm does not significantly help to advance that cause. Ancestral Vision is superior as a generator of card advantage in this deck, and Brainstorm is little more than a cantrip in most situations that forces you to lose life to fetchlands.
Guess what? Wizards printed this guy called "jace the mindsculptor" which is the single most broken blue permanent ever printed, and functions as a draw engine, repeatable bounce, fateseal effect, AND "suspend 5: you win the game" win condition.Quote:
Originally Posted by Koby
This obviously blows Stalking Stones out of the water and enables MUC to play 4-of Jace and nothing else as its primary win condition, something unimaginable to MUC players many years ago.
Also, there was this thing called Chalice of the Void printed that hoses Storm combo from the sideboard on top of massive volumes of maindeck countermagic.
And this creature called Vendilion Clique to wrecks combo as well. This kind of stuff, again, would be unimaginable to MUC players from your era, and make the combo matchup a breeze.
Mono Blue Control has:Quote:
Not much different from UW Control?
UW Control has:
* Spot creature removal (StP)
* Mass creature removal (Wrath and Terminus)
* Defensive win conditions (Stoneforge Mystic)
* Artifact and enchantment removal (Disenchant)
* Graveyard hate (RIP)
* Brainstorm
* Twenty four lands
* Spot creature removal that stalemates the board against aggro (Vedalken Shackles)
* Mass creature removal (Powder Keg / Ratchet Bomb) that can also blow up artifacts, lands and enchantments
* The best defensive win condition in the game (Jace the Mind Sculptor)
* More Countermagic than UW control, so that it can counter artifacts and enchantments, or use the aforementioned Keg/Ratchet Bomb
* Graveyard hate (4-of Leyline/Grafdiggers/whatever in the sideboard)
* No need for Brainstorm because instead of generating card quality the deck generates raw card advantage with Ancestral Vision
* Twenty two lands because that is just enough (and it can easily play 2 more if need be) because the 22 Island manabase is completely impervious to commonly played land destruction
Powder Keg is too slow to deal with ultra fast aggro, but that's why MUC is positioned well right now: ultra fast aggro like Goblins and Merfolk are not in vogue at the moment. Keg is more than fast enough to deal with slower mid-range stuff.Quote:
Mono-blue Control has none of these, and Vedalken Shackles, while a sweet card, doesn't solve all your problems. Powder Keg is a nice touch too, but it's too slow to deal with real threats.
Don't you understand how this works?Quote:
Originally Posted by clavio
Magic is played across a 2/3 sb format.
Look at the sideboard:
4 Chalice of the Void
4 Vendilion Clique
G1, the Storm/ High Tide matchup is say, 60/40 in MUC's favor, because Jace is enough of a clock (remember- Suspend 5: you win the game, all while you wreck their topdecks).
G2 and G3, it becomes a massive blowout in MUC's favor.
This is how the deck looks to the Combo opponent post-board:
22 Island
4 Ancestral Vision
4 Counterspell
4 Force of Will
4 Spell Pierce
3 Misdirection
4 Chalice of the Void
3 Powder Keg
4 Vendilion Clique
4 Back to Basics
4 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
I trade anti-creature stuff and some Divert for Chalice and Clique. I don't know if you've ever played Combo against a deck that is not only packing Chalice, but counterspells, and force of will, and misdirection AND Vendilion Clique, but it is absolutely brutal to face for the combo deck.
G2 and G3 are very strongly in MUC's favor, and in combination with 60/40 or so G1 matchup, this enables MUC to have a good matchup against nearly any combo deck, and especially decks that rely on lots of 1cc spells (High Tide, Ad Naus, Belcher).