[Deck] ANT (Ad Nauseam Tendrils)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by lordofthepit

Hey Rico, I've been looking at your decklists and your tournament reports for a while. I'm thinking of taking ANT to a local tournament for the first time, and as a beginner, I prefer the sheer speed and relative simplicity of the U/B build (compared to Doomsday versions). I wanted to ask some questions about your card choices so that I could better determine what I want to include.

I notice your maindeck is very similar to Saito's, except with the following differences:

1) fewer total lands (15 vs. 16), with an extra Ponder taking the place of the 16th land
2) an extra Thoughtseize instead of a Wipe Away, which I also find more useful Game 1 (the Thoughtseize)
3) an extra fetchland for more shuffling effects
4) more basics for better mana stability at the expense of the explosiveness of City of Traitors

My main question concerns point #4: do you ever wish you had City of Traitors instead (or Crystal Vein, which has also been discussed in the thread)? And in what types of metagames would you prefer those City of Traitors?

If you were to go with City of Traitors (for instance, in a combo-heavy metagame where you might desire the extra speed), would that cause you to go up to 16 lands?

---

City of Traitors is really good. It's more than just a way to speed up the deck, but also a way to easily play around Daze effects. It's really strong against Merfolk in particular.

But yes, if I played City of Traitors I'd likely play 2, and if I played 2 of them I would run 16 land maindeck and then run a complete 15 card SB with no lands in it (meaning I'd stuff the Trop Isle maindeck too).

I personally prefer it the way I have it, but there's nothing wrong with City at all.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Piceli89

@Rico: how do you side against Countertop and Merfolks with your list. I'm playing it for fun with maindeck -1 Tendrils and +Igg, and although it's near to autopilot (no flame intended, but i'm used to play DDANT), it's comfortable to win on turn3 without making esoteric calculations.
How many grips do you side in against CT? I assume you side out an AdN to not get the curve too high. Do you also brig in the Confidants? Actually I'm playing Xantid Swarm instead of them , because i'm used to the green bees and they're autowin against merfolk as well as being useful against other stuff. But perhaps, sincer Merfolk is really easy with this list (as long as you don't open a slow hand and they go ultra-beatdown mode), I can try to cut them for something else.

---

Against Merfolk, I SB very little. Maybe a land comes in for a Ponder.

Against CB/Top it very much depends. A good guideline is as follows:

-3 Cabal Ritual
-3 Ponder
-1 Chrome Mox
-1 Island
+1 Trop Isle
+4 Dark Confidant
+3 Krosan Grip

If I expect Meddling Mage or Teeg, I board in a Slaughter Pact or Chain of Vapor for the 2nd AN.

Xantid Swarm is entirely unnecessary. This deck is already pretty good at winning through a stacked hand of permission, even if it takes a while sometimes. Bob is really, really good and a lot better against every blue deck except Merfolk. But I already feel great against Merfolk.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Rico Suave

The 3rd blue deck was New Horizons, which has apparently been growing in popularity or at least on the internet. It's got Force, Daze, Stifle, and Wastelands as relevant disruption but its beaters are 3cc dorks that are slow. Teeg from the SB wasn't really a surprise, but I would expect it would catch at least 90% of other ANT players with their pants down and steal a post-SB game.

Games 1 and 3 were basically mirrors of each other. Slow play lands, don't die to Stifle, Duress him to clear the way, ANT when ready. When in doubt, go for it because they aren't going to have Force.

Game 2 I just got blown out by his hand of Teeg, Teeg, Force, Force, land, Goyf, Goyf. He missed his 2nd land drop, but made it on turn 3 had extra blue cards to spare after removing the first Teeg. I guess I could have played a little more aggressive with my 2 M.Tutor hand but I'm pretty sure I was boned either way.

After playing against it here and against Dave Price at the Vestal tournament, I'm pretty sure this deck is just really poorly suited to fighting combo. If you can avoid dying to Stifle/Wasteland, and still manage to play around Daze, they are a really slow-clocking deck who has 4 Force of Will and little else. It feels like an easier match-up than Merfolk, because Merfolk's clock is a lot faster not to mention they have actual card draw in Standstill to complicate things.

---

I'm roommates with the New Horizons player (I was playing U lands) and in testing, Horizons rarely had a chance. He just added Teeg before the tournament, but it's probably one of the better blue matchups for Ad Naus. (It's still a good deck for Vestal because of a lack of Combo in the meta)

Hey Rico. I was the one beating New Horizons with your Ad Nausem list, which i have picked up seeing that disappointing 9th finish in vestal last month (damn guy conceding rion in). The biggest thing you have to worry about is quick goyf hands with disruption. Post board he added 3 spell pierce which made it harder, though the added duress effects really helped.
A quick question: When do the bob's come in? I've initailly brought them in against discard and against New Horizons, not to mention CB top decks, but have found them a bit underwhelming.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Rico Suave

Bob is really, really good and a lot better against every blue deck except Merfolk. But I already feel great against Merfolk.

---

Howw?? It seems to be AT BEST for me a 50/50. I've been playtesting the hell out of this matchup. I must be doing something wrong. They have disruption and a really fast clock. thats all around bad news for ant.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by JonBarber

Howw?? It seems to be AT BEST for me a 50/50. I've been playtesting the hell out of this matchup. I must be doing something wrong. They have disruption and a really fast clock. thats all around bad news for ant.

---

I always thought it was ANT that had a really fast clock.

To me, it seems there is little Merfolk can do if its Force gets Duressed, since it doesn't have enough relevant cards to prevent Ad Nauseam from resolving. And I'm pretty sure that even with their most aggressive beatdown draws on the play, they aren't doing nearly enough damage to make an average turn 3 Ad Nauseam fizzle.

They can 8 you with double lords by turn 3 if they're on the play (t1 cursecatcher, t2 lord of atlantis, attack for 2, t3 another lord guy, attack with two 3/3s). I'm not saying that you auto-fizzle from 12 (although it's far from guaranteed), but that's not counting fetches/thoughtseize.

That said, Merfolk has a really hard time recovering from Duress/Thoughtseize to take their Force.

So I'm probably going to run this deck in my Sunday tourney, with Saito's MD, and almost the same SB. Here is my rationale/SB plan for each card:

Sideboard

1 Chain of Vapor-Iona on Black, Meddling Mage, random flexibility
4 Dark Confidant-the mirror, control in general, and CB/Top. Also vs decks with discard.
1 Echoing Truth-token swarms, but really anything
1 Extirpate-race Dredge by clearing narc or something, but also for Iona or even to kill some FoWs.
1 Hurkyl's Recall-Chalice decks
1 Rebuild-Chalice decks. I have a spread of diversified mana costs on my artifact bounce
1 Reverent Silence-CB, Enchantress I guess
2 Krosan Grip-CB, other decks with noncreature combo hate, some chalice decks
1 Sadistic Sacrament-the mirror, other decks with few win cons.
1 Slaughter Pact-teeg, canonist, mage
1 Thoughtseize-vs. opposing combo, mostly, and if I suspect Trap.

If I wanted anything else, it would probably be Kgrip #3 followed by IGG for aggro matchups. (what would I cut for them?)

It kinds of looks shotgunny, but I realize a) you have tutors to make many viirtual copies and b) a lot of the cards either have identical functions/overlap.

Also, my MD cuts are always some combination of Thoughtseize, Duress(only for swapping with seize). Cabal Rit, Trop, Chrome Mox, and Ponder, and generally no more than 7 of those. So for instance vs. Zoo, where I fear Teeg, Canonist, and maybe MB trap, I woud just cut 2 ponder for pact and chain and swap a duress for thoughtseize. Vs Belcher, where I need to race/disrupt lightly, I would cut trop/ponders for, etruth (ETW), and Seize--maybe shave something fofr a Kgrip. vs reanimator, I want extirpate, chain, and probably etruth or slaughter pact (rebuild stops inkwell and sphinx, so maybe), and I cut 2 ponder and 1-2 chrome mox. for the mirror, I go -3 crit, -2 ponder, -1 Trop, +4 Confidant, +1seize, +1 Sacrament. I find that I cut Trop when I have no grips, but it's good in G1 because it's an amazing bluff card. Misty->trop->ponder or brainstorm or top makes them think Thresh or CB all day. Does the stuff I wrote seem reasonable?

I would cut Duress instead of Ponder against Zoo. Duress is mostly a blank against them, and Mindbreak Trap isn't that common. Without Ponder you risk randomly losing because you have less control over what you draw.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by JonBarber

Howw?? It seems to be AT BEST for me a 50/50. I've been playtesting the hell out of this matchup. I must be doing something wrong. They have disruption and a really fast clock. thats all around bad news for ant.

---

I agree their clock is fast, but it seems slightly above 50-50 with the testing I've had against it. Seems like 60-40, maybe 55-45 in ANT's favor

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by honestabe

I agree their clock is fast, but it seems slightly above 50-50 with the testing I've had against it. Seems like 60-40, maybe 55-45 in ANT's favor

---

Seriously, Merfolk is just a slower Zoo with 4 relevant cards (FoW). Daze is only semi-relevant in my experience.
Play against them as if you would play against Zoo: Go for the T1 win G1, if you can, but don't ever consider IGG. G2/3, always have Duress effects before going off.

Hello i just wanted to share with you boys my thoutghs, please tell me what do you think, this is what i posted on storm Boards, but not answered...

Hello I'll start with my idea:
Well I've been playing ANT, and TES mainly,
regariding to the ANT archetype I find some issues:
- it's win condition is unidirectional
- Sometimes you can not get the win at 15 lifes
- loses to c.b

regarding to TES:
- Sometimes win and sometimes just can't
- is not stable

So I came up with a buiild which:
- must be capable to win c.b
- is stable
- do not be afraid to die to a casted A.N

So I started to build the deck with this axiomas:
- is it possible to not to play 4cc and 3 cc?
- yes it is
the conclusions is that when you go on showing cards with A.N at 4 lifes (5 if you play 2 AN) is something I scare and can not do, it's not a 100% win, this is the most anoying thing can happen to a magic combo player who is programmer...

So I'll start to build the deck:
- I wanted a solid mana base, so 3 color are the correct: B/R/B
- I wanted orims effects but duress effects seemed more powerfull vs c.b and mirror and in conjunction with the side better in general, the only way you want to cast orims effects is o handle multiple threats or to cast IGG, card I slowly started to stop playing, so Ill start with the MUST cards:

// Lands
1 [A] Badlands
4 [ON] flooded strand
1 [PT] Island
4 [ON] Polluted Delta
2 [A] Underground Sea
2 [B] Volcanic Island

// Spells
1 [ALA] Ad Nauseam
4 [MM] Brainstorm
4 [JU] Burning Wish
4 [MR] Chrome Mox
4 [A] Dark Ritual
4 Rite of flame
4 [MI] Lion's Eye Diamond
4 [TE] Lotus Petal
3 [MI] Mystical Tutor
4 ponder
3 Infernal Tutor

3 [LRW] Thoughtseize
4 [US] Duress


well this seems like a TES deck more stable, the testing demostrated that playig no more than 2 cc, you always can draw more cards, and therefore you really don't mind not to have tendrils because you just need 2 more mana is you do not have them in base, also having rite of flame in base allows us to play around 1 mana needed to cast burning, wich is nuts.

the changes varies between -1 I.T=+1 M.Tutor, however becuase of the card disadvantege playing 4 c.mox 3 seems the good option, but not sure,

about the side I built it focused on handle c.b so vexing susher is absolutly key as well paired with duresses effect from side will make the pairing perfectly winable.

slops: I found that the deck focused only in A.N and next on burning, so I wanted something to bring in 2nd and 3rd games, thats why I played in side 2 copies of tendrils and IGG, but this was something I disliked it, I found the deck as a deck wich would win the 2nd and 3rds games vs sligh archetypes but now its a matter of lonely velocity, I wanted more directions...

and again I found the way to go, because before I didn't know Doomsday card, so great card....

So i decided to go in the same direction of this deck but implementing the DoomsDay direction, I mean I didn't want to play 4 manacosts in the deck and I thing I finally got it:

/ Lands
1 [A] Badlands
4 [ON] flooded strand
1 [PT] Island
4 [ON] Polluted Delta
2 [A] Underground Sea
2 [B] Volcanic Island
1 swamp

// Spells
1 [ALA] Ad Nauseam
4 [MM] Brainstorm
4 [JU] Burning Wish
3 [MR] Chrome Mox
4 [A] Dark Ritual
4 Rite of flame
4 [MI] Lion's Eye Diamond
4 [TE] Lotus Petal
4 [MI] Mystical Tutor
4 Senseis
2 Infernal Tutor
1 Meditate

2 [LRW] Thoughtseize
4 [US] Duress

the major changes I made to the deck were:
- -4 ponder=+4 senseis
-1 I.T=1 mystical
- C.Mox= +1 swamp
-1 Thoutghseize = +1 meditate

we do not need doomsday in main,as the same way as we do not need tendrils and neither IGG, we DO need meditate and senseis, and nothing else.

Thanks to the knowledge on how Doomsday works I now have 2 directions to win with the deck with just 2 lifes, via burning --> DoomsDay.

Well I need you give me advices about this new approach , I'm sure you all boys have at least thinking about this idea, burning wish is a powerfull card wich in my opinion has not been used properly for building ANT decks (except bryant).

I'd like to know if you emidlin agree with this approach, please have in mind that in the begining of the times everybody played 3-4 A.N in base..., maybe its time to let 4 costs away from the statistics...

Quote:

---

Hello i just wanted to share with you boys my thoutghs, please tell me what do you think, this is what i posted on storm Boards, but not answered...

Hello I'll start with my idea:
Well I've been playing ANT, and TES mainly,
regariding to the ANT archetype I find some issues:
- it's win condition is unidirectional
- Sometimes you can not get the win at 15 lifes
- loses to c.b

regarding to TES:
- Sometimes win and sometimes just can't
- is not stable

So I came up with a buiild which:
- must be capable to win c.b
- is stable
- do not be afraid to die to a casted A.N

So I started to build the deck with this axiomas:
- is it possible to not to play 4cc and 3 cc?
- yes it is
the conclusions is that when you go on showing cards with A.N at 4 lifes (5 if you play 2 AN) is something I scare and can not do, it's not a 100% win, this is the most anoying thing can happen to a magic combo player who is programmer...

So I'll start to build the deck:
- I wanted a solid mana base, so 3 color are the correct: B/R/B
- I wanted orims effects but duress effects seemed more powerfull vs c.b and mirror and in conjunction with the side better in general, the only way you want to cast orims effects is o handle multiple threats or to cast IGG, card I slowly started to stop playing, so Ill start with the MUST cards:

// Lands
1 [A] Badlands
4 [ON] flooded strand
1 [PT] Island
4 [ON] Polluted Delta
2 [A] Underground Sea
2 [B] Volcanic Island

// Spells
1 [ALA] Ad Nauseam
4 [MM] Brainstorm
4 [JU] Burning Wish
4 [MR] Chrome Mox
4 [A] Dark Ritual
4 Rite of flame
4 [MI] Lion's Eye Diamond
4 [TE] Lotus Petal
3 [MI] Mystical Tutor
4 ponder
3 Infernal Tutor

3 [LRW] Thoughtseize
4 [US] Duress


well this seems like a TES deck more stable, the testing demostrated that playig no more than 2 cc, you always can draw more cards, and therefore you really don't mind not to have tendrils because you just need 2 more mana is you do not have them in base, also having rite of flame in base allows us to play around 1 mana needed to cast burning, wich is nuts.

the changes varies between -1 I.T=+1 M.Tutor, however becuase of the card disadvantege playing 4 c.mox 3 seems the good option, but not sure,

about the side I built it focused on handle c.b so vexing susher is absolutly key as well paired with duresses effect from side will make the pairing perfectly winable.

slops: I found that the deck focused only in A.N and next on burning, so I wanted something to bring in 2nd and 3rd games, thats why I played in side 2 copies of tendrils and IGG, but this was something I disliked it, I found the deck as a deck wich would win the 2nd and 3rds games vs sligh archetypes but now its a matter of lonely velocity, I wanted more directions...

and again I found the way to go, because before I didn't know Doomsday card, so great card....

So i decided to go in the same direction of this deck but implementing the DoomsDay direction, I mean I didn't want to play 4 manacosts in the deck and I thing I finally got it:

/ Lands
1 [A] Badlands
4 [ON] flooded strand
1 [PT] Island
4 [ON] Polluted Delta
2 [A] Underground Sea
2 [B] Volcanic Island
1 swamp

// Spells
1 [ALA] Ad Nauseam
4 [MM] Brainstorm
4 [JU] Burning Wish
3 [MR] Chrome Mox
4 [A] Dark Ritual
4 Rite of flame
4 [MI] Lion's Eye Diamond
4 [TE] Lotus Petal
4 [MI] Mystical Tutor
4 Senseis
2 Infernal Tutor
1 Meditate

2 [LRW] Thoughtseize
4 [US] Duress

the major changes I made to the deck were:
- -4 ponder=+4 senseis
-1 I.T=1 mystical
- C.Mox= +1 swamp
-1 Thoutghseize = +1 meditate

we do not need doomsday in main,as the same way as we do not need tendrils and neither IGG, we DO need meditate and senseis, and nothing else.

Thanks to the knowledge on how Doomsday works I now have 2 directions to win with the deck with just 2 lifes, via burning --> DoomsDay.

Well I need you give me advices about this new approach , I'm sure you all boys have at least thinking about this idea, burning wish is a powerfull card wich in my opinion has not been used properly for building ANT decks (except bryant).

I'd like to know if you emidlin agree with this approach, please have in mind that in the begining of the times everybody played 3-4 A.N in base..., maybe its time to let 4 costs away from the statistics...

---

As much as I like to see new innovations I must disagree with the no tendrils or doomsday MD opinion.
The problem with your appoach to NLS is the fact that you MUST burning wish to whatever engine you want to go with. Sadly this means you will either have to wait a turn with your (only) doomsday in hand. making discards spells very dangerous or you'll have to pay 2 more mana the turn you want to combo. In the turn you want to combo with doomsday more mana equals more options equals more storm.
I think the same reasoning is true for ad nauseam. Somethimes you will just have one top in play, mystical tutor and 4 mana left.
with burning wish> tendrils you will always need 6 mana (not to mention one of those will have to be red).
Don't get me wrong I absolutely love burning wish in NLS but I think not playing doomsday and ToA maindeck will seriously reduce the number of options available in certain situations.

Having zero answers to Meddling Mage chanting Bwish seems like it will cost you games as well. If you really want to be flexible, I think you wan1x IGG, 1x Tendrils, and 1x DDay in your maindeck, so you can win from all kinds of crazy situations. Run Grapeshot+Helm in your SB as your spare kill.

@Pelikanudo: There is a reason no one is responding to you on the storm boards, this has been discussed in depth in every combo deck thread that runs Burning Wish, read ANY of them and you get ur answer. In short:

Not running IGG in TES is stupid because you give up free wins (exceptions are if you run 2 AdN which ... is rarely good.) And personally I think not running IGG at all is dumb as hell, but thats just me, personally I like cheap and easy wins on turns 1-3 that only require 1 life point.

Not running Tendrils in ANY STORM DECK is ignorant because you rely on Burning Wish to win which is ridiculous.

All you have done is cut important cards and make the decks even less versatile and more vulnerable to hate.

Read some of the threads and catch up with where storm combo is today. And if you want the newest and best TES lists, read that thread on the storm boards, Yesmilord and I have played some solid lists to great results. So if you actually read this post, take note, reading up on decks that are difficult to play and even harder to play in tournaments .... is good.

EDIT: Please stop quoting Rico Suave, he is on my ignore list and I actually have to read 3-4 words of one of his posts everytime I scroll down.

well I have to say that this weekend I got a 4-0 getting the second position in a 25 people tournament
I found the deck near perfect I made to the deck just 1 change I definately wanted to play DoomsDay main,
I have to say also that I did not run Tendrils main
I won to thopter -foundry with spell pierce form side
I won to Armagedon stax
I won to Enchantreess (near bye alhoutg I lostr the first game due to a auras silence from 2nd turn and 3rd turn and ajani mainly)
I won to dont remember

I do not miss tenrdrils from main the only thing it is relevant is because is -2 mana when you star howing cards with AN, but nothing else
just playing 1 infernal tutor as a way to get A.N via m.tutor--> i.tutor in case LED is in hand

I regret playing the sorcery from 1 green which destroys enchantment, because does not make targets, I changed to Hull breach.
I play 2 tendrils in side because in second games I can make possible the pile with deathmarks.
Vexing Shuser was key even it helped to hadle a possible chalice 2 from e.truth.

I have to say I love DoomsDay , now its my 3rd magic favouritte card ¡¡¡

@Dia_Bot I have to say I agree with you that not playing DoomsDay main is a mistake I definately changed it to main, but Tendrils is another history, you can make perfect DoomsDay piles with 3 mana left and senseis in play and NO tendrils main, vs expected gaddok or m.mages I move 1 tendrils and 1 death mark to main due to the posibilities it offer, but in 1st game is absolutly not neccessary the Tendrils.

Not running Tendrils forces you to either have SDT or an additional mana + the normal cost to win with Doomsday. For example, the minimum to win with Brainstorm in hand and no additional cards becomes: 2UUBR or 4UUB. This isn't acceptable. If you want Doomsday to be useful, Tendrils main is not optional.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Pulp_Fiction

@Pelikanudo: There is a reason no one is responding to you on the storm boards, this has been discussed in depth in every combo deck thread that runs Burning Wish, read ANY of them and you get ur answer. In short:

Not running IGG in TES is stupid because you give up free wins (exceptions are if you run 2 AdN which ... is rarely good.) And personally I think not running IGG at all is dumb as hell, but thats just me, personally I like cheap and easy wins on turns 1-3 that only require 1 life point.

Not running Tendrils in ANY STORM DECK is ignorant because you rely on Burning Wish to win which is ridiculous.

All you have done is cut important cards and make the decks even less versatile and more vulnerable to hate.

Read some of the threads and catch up with where storm combo is today. And if you want the newest and best TES lists, read that thread on the storm boards, Yesmilord and I have played some solid lists to great results. So if you actually read this post, take note, reading up on decks that are difficult to play and even harder to play in tournaments .... is good.

EDIT: Please stop quoting Rico Suave, he is on my ignore list and I actually have to read 3-4 words of one of his posts everytime I scroll down.

---

I cut IGG from my TES list... Although I still have it as a wish target. I'm opting for a maindeck Empty the Warrens instead.

As for Tendrils maindeck? I tried something new in an event yesterday in the combo mirror. Boarding out ETW and Tendrils since they're dead cards if you draw them. It worked out fine, I won.

But you are a lucksack. For the rest of is, its different. By the way, Cook, check out www.fulltiltpoker.net Luck is better abused in other ways than magic.

I went 4-1-1 in the swiss and lost in the semis at Knight ware today with the following list:

2 City of Traitors
3 Flooded Strand
1 Island
3 Misty Rainforest
2 Polluted Delta
1 Tropical Island
4 Underground Sea

2 Ad Nauseam
4 Brainstorm
4 Cabal Ritual
3 Chrome Mox
4 Dark Ritual
4 Duress
3 Infernal Tutor
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
4 Mystical Tutor
2 Ponder
2 Sensei's Divining Top
2 Tendrils of Agony
2 Thoughtseize
44 other spells

Sideboard
1 Chain of Vapor
4 Dark Confidant
1 Echoing Truth
1 Extirpate
1 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Rebuild
1 Reverent Silence
2 Krosan Grip
1 Sadistic Sacrament
1 Slaughter Pact
1 Thoughtseize

The maindeck was card-for-card Saito's, the sideboard was his -1. I boarded in every single card in various matches, and only really missed an IGG for quick and certain wins. I have no idea what I would cut for it. I suppose going up to 4 Delta and being able to fetch 1 Swamp would also have been good vs. wastelands. I beat Stax, Dredge, the mirror, Goblins, and Belcher, and lost to U/W tempo and CB/Top. All in all, it's an incredibly powerful deck, but it's really draining to play.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Pulp_Fiction

EDIT: Please stop quoting Rico Suave, he is on my ignore list and I actually have to read 3-4 words of one of his posts everytime I scroll down.

---

You heard the man, no more discussion; it's irritating his poor little eyes