[DTB] Team America (Aggro/Tempo Thread)

So I've been trying to find a good Tempo deck with black. I've tried Grixis without much success (really, Tarmo is good in Tempo...).

I've read the last few pages of this thread, and I want to give TA (in its purest Tempo version) a try in this meta.

I have a few questions:

- how do you find Liliana? so far I've been rather disappointed. She comes in late, and the discard effect isn't always that great. I'm tempted to remove them both for the 4th Tombstalker (God I love this card) and something else.

- for the removals: snuff out is good, but is probably not a 4 of. I've been trying to find another 2 or 3 removals MD with mana cost 1 or less (Submerge is certainly sideboard material). I like having a Darkblast (as the 5th removal probably), it's quite good with 4 stalkers. Now I need another 2. Pulse is very good but very very slow. Demise doesn't go very well with the stalkers. So I've been thinking, maybe 1 or 2 Disfigure? it deals with Delver/Stoneforge and a large part of Maverick's guys. It's good during a Tarmo/Tarmo fight. What do you think? I'll test them anyway, just like to have your thoughts.

-have you all dropped stifle? I don't like the bad synergy with the discard (ie tapping out for Thoughseize T1), but it deals with Terminus, which might become really relevant in the next few weeks.

- how do you find Hymn in this meta? I really find Thouseize/IoK/Duress better now, to take the exact piece we want (StP, Batterskull, S&T, etc). And if we play a very Tempo oriented version of TA, pin-point discard seems better.

I'd really like to give Jace's Phantasm a spin in the tempo version of Team America, especially the builds that are running Hymn to Tourach.

I think Hymn will start to get better as the RUG decks continue to keep dropping their Spell Snares as well.

As much as I love Liliana, she hasn't been as amazing as I would've liked as well. Since we're playing a blue deck, the discard effect can be counterproductive with us holding countermagic / stifle / removal to disrupt opponents who have empty hands.

If you really want a 1 drop black removal spell, you could always try Vendetta?

Thanks for the quick reply. Vendetta makes us lose life too. I don't play 4 Snuff Out because of the massive loss life, so I'm trying to find another removal to go with 2 Snuff Out.

I used to play 2 Snuff Out 2 Ghastly Demise!

I liked 3 Snuff Outs and 2 Darkblasts myself. Darkblast is pretty amazing against Maverick.

@ wcm8 :
I do also really like the your list & sb concept. nice idea really !
I just wonder if you encountered any difficulties to reach enough lands when you go for the control route ?
Against which decks do you side in the control tools ?

First im going to give my reasoning for slower cards like liliana, pulse etc in TA. Regarding tempo, we are basically 1cc higher than tempo thresh and therefore usually 1 turn slower. Focusing on the tempo route just makes us a worse version of TT. What we do have though is hard removal, hand disruption, and straight up bombs, not to mention better SB options IMO. TT suffers from a lack of these things (if TT actually suffers from anything). This is where lilianas, pulse, hymns, stalkers, library and friends come in. I tend to look at TA not as a tempo deck but rather as the fastest most aggressive control deck in the format. IMO Stifle has no place in this new TA because these colors function best at full aggression, and tbh canadian just does "tempo" better.
Anyway just my thoughts in general but to answer your questions:

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- how do you find Liliana? so far I've been rather disappointed. She comes in late, and the discard effect isn't always that great. I'm tempted to remove them both for the 4th Tombstalker (God I love this card) and something else.

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Liliana is situationally good, damn good on a clear board and remember you can drop her off SNT to answer GB/emrakul. She is also good against combo if the game goes long enough to land her, which we can accomplish pretty often, not that combo is that bad for us anyway. I think all of us have considered the 4th stalker at one time or another but it WILL clog your hand, personally I advise against it.

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- for the removals: snuff out is good, but is probably not a 4 of. I've been trying to find another 2 or 3 removals MD with mana cost 1 or less (Submerge is certainly sideboard material). I like having a Darkblast (as the 5th removal probably), it's quite good with 4 stalkers. Now I need another 2. Pulse is very good but very very slow. Demise doesn't go very well with the stalkers. So I've been thinking, maybe 1 or 2 Disfigure? it deals with Delver/Stoneforge and a large part of Maverick's guys. It's good during a Tarmo/Tarmo fight. What do you think? I'll test them anyway, just like to have your thoughts.

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I currently roll 3 snuff 2 pulse main + 2 liliana. Pretty heavy removal suite with only 3 potential dead cards game 1. I did have darkblast main for awhile and its so good vs maverick but ive since removed it to streamline since im seeing more decks that just dont care about spot removal. DB is lightyears ahead of disfigure though and as you said demise had poor synergy at times with this deck.

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-have you all dropped stifle? I don't like the bad synergy with the discard (ie tapping out for Thoughseize T1), but it deals with Terminus, which might become really relevant in the next few weeks.

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Yes and I cant imagine looking back. Its just too reactive in the black aggressive shell I play. In TT I believe it is necessary to keep the game state at turn 1-2, but not for us.

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- how do you find Hymn in this meta? I really find Thouseize/IoK/Duress better now, to take the exact piece we want (StP, Batterskull, S&T, etc). And if we play a very Tempo oriented version of TA, pin-point discard seems better.

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I still love hymn but ive dropped to a 3/3 split because t2 hymn isnt always optimal but a hymn at the right time is still just savage.

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Originally Posted by dionykos

Thanks for the quick reply. Vendetta makes us lose life too. I don't play 4 Snuff Out because of the massive loss life, so I'm trying to find another removal to go with 2 Snuff Out.

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Paralyze!!!!!
=D

Edit: SCD: http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...yze&highlight=

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Originally Posted by Tombstalker

Liliana is situationally good, damn good on a clear board and remember you can drop her off SNT to answer GB/emrakul.

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Wrong. If this were the case, SnT would hardly be a problem with Jace, Lili, etc in the format. Unfortunately, planeswalkers can't get put into play from SnT.

That said, she is great pre-emptively or as a follow-up to Emrakul.

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Originally Posted by Tombstalker

Wcm8- man I like you're list. I can't really fault any of your choices except demise. Why not snuff out its so much better in this deck. I am curious what scroll is for though and the absence of spell pierce in your board but otherwise I like the transformational aspect.

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Cursed Scroll is experimental right now, basically it's a way to gain a long-term advantage against decks with a TON of removal when you need to punch through for the last few points, or against decks where you know you will get into the long-game. Against certain decks, you can leverage yourself into the 'unbeatable' position of having Jace, Liliana, Library, and Scroll out. At that point, winning is just an elementary matter of not dying. In some matchups, I've also dropped EVERY creature aside from Thrun and maybe a Tombstalker or two, with the idea that they are siding into a ton of targeted removal, and thus I gain virtual card advantage by going the planeswalker route (e.g: Terminus UW control decks, BUG Deedstill, etc.) Scroll functions a lot like a near-unkillable Grim Lavamancer that also happens to kill Mother of Runes and friends since the damage is colorless.

Also, Ghastly Demise could definitely be Snuff Out and/or Diabolic Edict. I'm actually testing with 2 Edicts right now in that slot and it's performing pretty well. I've moved 2 Maelstrom Pulses back into the main, dropped Engineered Explosives and a Thoughtseize, and put 2 Pernicious Deed back into the board. These slots might be changed in the near future, especially if certain cards get banned/unbanned on the 20th this month.

Spell Pierce I feel is a bit too reactive for this deck right now. I am playing black because I want to be pro-active. Against the current 'best' combo deck in the format (SnT), you aren't likely going to win on the stack because they simply have too many counters. Your best bet seems to be either forcing them to discard their creature/enabler, Edicting their Emrakul/Griselbrand (good lucky with that one), or dropping a Sower/Gilded Drake from SnT. It's a winnable matchup, but it's definitely no walk in the park.

For Reanimator, I opted for Extirpate over Surgical because I wanted a card that they can't answer via Daze/FoW/Misdirection. That said, the GY hate mixture could be any of the following: Tormod's, Nihil, Extirpate, and maybe Surgical. A relic of Progenitus or Scavenging Ooze is actually not a terrible idea. Beyond Dredge and Reanimator, you also have to worry about Loam decks since this deck can get Waste-locked quite easily.

You lose to Burn and U/R Delver the majority of the time. Suck it up and move on, this is just not the deck to play if you're expecting a lot of Price of Progress. Hope and pray for the Hymn/double Goyf opener.

The transformational idea is not exactly my own, credit needs to go to Goddik and Dan for starting this idea. UBG have the best options available I think towards winning a long game if needed.

20 Lands + 4 Ponder + 4 Brainstorm + 1 Sylvan Library + 1 Life from the Loam actually makes it quite easy to build up to 4+ lands against decks where you are playing control (hint: you don't go this route against decks that pressure your mana base). I actually like this a lot more than playing 22-24 lands because once you establish the mana, you don't tend to get as many dead topdecks.

I will be sure to post an updated list once the banned list announcement is made on the 20th (which may or may not include any significant changes). I am tentatively planning on running BUG at the next big tournament this month on the 30th, and will keep y'alls posted.

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Wrong. If this were the case, SnT would hardly be a problem with Jace, Lili, etc in the format. Unfortunately, planeswalkers can't get put into play from SnT.

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Whoa oops I owe someone an apology then, huge misplay.

Hi guys, I´m new in this forum and now I´m playing Joao Akverrinho´s list from Bazaar of Moxen, here you can check it: http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/dec...0&iddeck=60774
I like the deck but i don´t like the sideboard, because of my metagame is full of reanimator, Canadian ******** and Maverick. Which sideboard do you recommend?

Good expanations man but god I hope nothing gets banned not even GB + SNT, I like where the format is at right now.

Regarding pierce I agree proactive is usually better, but against combo and grave strategies I still like to increase my counter density and especially my blue count, in addition to bringing in more hand disruption. The other problem is I have around 6+ cards to board out vs SnT/dredge/combo and most other cards against SnT dont cross over. Edit- maybe I should invest in a few flusterstorms.

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Originally Posted by Tombstalker

First im going to give my reasoning for slower cards like liliana, pulse etc in TA. Regarding tempo, we are basically 1cc higher than tempo thresh and therefore usually 1 turn slower. Focusing on the tempo route just makes us a worse version of TT. What we do have though is hard removal, hand disruption, and straight up bombs, not to mention better SB options IMO. TT suffers from a lack of these things (if TT actually suffers from anything). This is where lilianas, pulse, hymns, stalkers, library and friends come in. I tend to look at TA not as a tempo deck but rather as the fastest most aggressive control deck in the format. IMO Stifle has no place in this new TA because these colors function best at full aggression, and tbh canadian just does "tempo" better.

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That's where I'm not sure that I agree :) I believe it may be possible to play TA with focus on the "tempo route". The more I test TA, the more I think that those slower cards in the main (Liliana, pulse, EE, removal at cc2, even Hymn) are the reason why TA isn't doing well in this meta (look at the meta on TC deck for the past few months...).

Now if we compare roughly a Tempo TA and TT:
- mongoose vs Tombstalker : I don't think mongoose is faster. Then mongoose is better in control MU, but Stalker is better in other MUs.
- discard: pinpoint discard can generate a great deal of tempo when targeting a removal.
- bolts : that's where TT has an edge. Bolts are removals and gives reach.
To that list you have to add Stifle (that's why I've been asking about this card in TA).

So TA doesn't have bolts. That's why I think TA should play cheap removals (snuff out is great, but not a 4 of). Darkblast is good but probably a 1 or 2 of (and it doesn't kill stoneforge and the flying delver). You see now why I've been asking about Disfigure, to complete this package of cheap removals.

So in a word, I think TA has great Tempo cards and should be played as a Tempo deck in this meta. Cards like Daze and Snuff Out become much worse in middle-late game. Even FoW is better in TA as a Tempo card : this is our only hard counter, so we can't counter everything, just one removal or one gamebreaker, and 2-1 ourselves is ok if we close the game quicky.
And adding midgame cards like pulse doesn't fix that. Each card in the deck must serve the same strategy (they do different things at different moments, sure, but they should all push in the same direction). My feeling is that adding slower cards makes TA a worst tempo deck, and a bad aggro-control deck (I would rather play Bant if I wanted to play aggro-control).

Maybe I didn't explain myself well enough. The tempo package of fow/daze/wasteland/snuff out is as insane as ever. Stifle otoh doesn't fit as well here because of the aggressive tap out nature of black with higher sorcery count as opposed to TT which packs more reactive instants and more 1cc threats so they can leave mana up for stifle while still forwarding their game plan.

I agree to an extent on the higher cost spells we name but think of the alternatives, i.e. more situational cards like pinpoint discard and more countermagic. there is a point of diminishing returns on these, where its at I'm not certain but diversity is good because of functional overlap.

For reference I currently roll with 2 pulse 2 Liliana 1 library main with full tempo package listed above and 3/3 split of IoK/hymn and its working beautifully. If there is a better alternative to those 5 "value cards" I'm open to suggestions but so far I haven't felt the need to change them, if I did it would likely be for more 1cc discard and to bring darkblast back main. Thing is those are what my board is for.

Regarding TAs showings this has always been a cyclical deck and popularity also plays a factor. The old school pure tempo plan is still powerful but it needs to evolve to see different results, IMO and in TA stifle is often anti tempo.

Anyway just my thoughts and id like to see the list your considering.

Hard to get thoughts across on my phone. Anyway for removal if you don't want to use multi purpose cards like pulse/Liliana I would suggest 3 snuff out 1-2 darkblast , maybe 1-2 edicts. And that's the problem with our removal, all have drawbacks and suffer from diminishing returns. I choose pulse to answer a resolved jtms which otherwise wrecks us, tokens, equipment and so on. Ya its expensive but never dead except on a clear board. After g1 I dial in to meet my needs. Liliana has many corner case uses in addition to filtering otherwise dead draws.

Thanks for the chat Tombstalker, it's exactly the discussion I wanted to have with someone who knew TA well!

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Originally Posted by Tombstalker

The tempo package of fow/daze/wasteland/snuff out is as insane as ever. Stifle otoh doesn't fit as well here because of the aggressive tap out nature of black with higher sorcery count as opposed to TT which packs more reactive instants and more 1cc threats so they can leave mana up for stifle while still forwarding their game plan.
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I agree with that, that's why I don't run Stifle (for now). However, as I said, the card helps a lot against Miracle control (on the Miracle Trigger, on Jace bouncing your Tombstalker, etc). And it's a decent card against other main decks of the meta (TT on Wasteland/fetch, Esper on Mystic, etc). I'm not sure it's enough though, that's why I was asking.

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Originally Posted by Tombstalker

I agree to an extent on the higher cost spells we name but think of the alternatives, i.e. more situational cards like pinpoint discard and more countermagic. there is a point of diminishing returns on these, where its at I'm not certain but diversity is good because of functional overlap.

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Again I agree, but by nature Tempo has very situational cards. Cards that work very well together in early game (and as long as this "early game state" is maintained), and become worst later.

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Originally Posted by Tombstalker

For reference I currently roll with 2 pulse 2 Liliana 1 library main with full tempo package listed above and 3/3 split of IoK/hymn and its working beautifully. If there is a better alternative to those 5 "value cards" I'm open to suggestions but so far I haven't felt the need to change them, if I did it would likely be for more 1cc discard and to bring darkblast back main. Thing is those are what my board is for.

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Obv the difference between your build and a pure-tempo-focused build will be on those 5/6 slots. But don't you feel sometimes that those slots are in fact slowing you down? that you would rather have additional tempo pieces? It's really about how often those slots make you win games you would have lost otherwise, vs how often you lose because they slow you down or force you to make anti-tempo plays.

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Originally Posted by Tombstalker

Regarding TAs showings this has always been a cyclical deck and popularity also plays a factor. The old school pure tempo plan is still powerful but it needs to evolve to see different results, IMO and in TA stifle is often anti tempo.

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Popularity surely is a factor, but that may not explain why the deck is doing so badly. It's actually hard to understand, because the way I see it, a Tempo TA has all the pieces to beat the dominant decks of the format (Maverick, Sneak and Show, Esperblade) while having a good chance against THE deck (TT).

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Originally Posted by Tombstalker

Anyway just my thoughts and id like to see the list your considering.

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This is what I'm trying (with a few details, I think I justified most of it in my previous posts):

4 Delver
4 Tarmogoyfs
4 Tombstalker - 3?

4 FoW
4 Daze
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
5 Thoughseize/IoK - 3/2 atm, still not sure about the right split
5 Snuff Out/Disfigure/Darkblast - 2/2/1 atm, again not sure

2 Spell pierce - this is the slot I don't like, and where I'm considering Stifle.

4 Wasteland

3 Polluted Delta
3 Verdant catacombs
2 Misty Rainforest
4 Underground Sea
2 Bayou
2 Tropical island

SB:
4 Extirpate
4 Submerge
2 Maelstrom Pulse (essentially for Control MUs)
2 Spell Pierce
1 Life from the loam
2 Mass removal --> empty sleeves atm, could be Deed, EE, Massacre, Shrivel, etc.
Also maybe 4 grave hate isn't enough.

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Obv the difference between your build and a pure-tempo-focused build will be on those 5/6 slots. But don't you feel sometimes that those slots are in fact slowing you down? that you would rather have additional tempo pieces? It's really about how often those slots make you win games you would have lost otherwise, vs how often you lose because they slow you down or force you to make anti-tempo plays.

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This is it in a nutshell. However its the alternatives that ive tried that led me to these choices, well that and the innovators of the 'tap out' philosophy..props to them. Hell ive even tried surgical extractions MD and pure UB torpornaught (which rocks btw but gets hated too easy).

Regarding removal roll 3 snuff out. Seriously, you dont want to be stuck with only 2 hard removal for kotr etc in your 60. Demise is sweet but not reliable with TS, dismember is just a worse snuff out. Also dont play disfigure, darkblast is superior especially with 8 cantrips = disfigure in a pinch. I switched back from canadian thresh because I missed the power of blacks removal, discard and tombstalkers so I take full advantage.

I agree spell pierce is the weak link in your main. What to replace with im not sure, I roll hymns in those slots but hymn does suck on the draw. Anyway try the list as written and see how it works for you. I do like the 5 1cc discard you have.

@dionykos: btw, Darkblast can kill x/2's. You have to blast on your upkeep, dredge, then reblast.

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Originally Posted by Esper3k

@dionykos: btw, Darkblast can kill x/2's. You have to blast on your upkeep, dredge, then reblast.

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And if you do that - youve made alot of card-disadvantage - which is a reason why I do not like Darkblast.


Greetings