If you're mostly scared of Jailer, why not just run Darkblasts over a few Golgari Thugs?Quote:
Originally Posted by Nidd
Grunt can be annoying, but I've never lost a game solely because of its presence.
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If you're mostly scared of Jailer, why not just run Darkblasts over a few Golgari Thugs?Quote:
Originally Posted by Nidd
Grunt can be annoying, but I've never lost a game solely because of its presence.
First reason: i can't find my Darkblasts. I should have a playset here, but I can't find it. i recently moved and I have the strange feeling that it didn't go where all my other Legacy-relevant cards went...*sigh*Quote:
Originally Posted by Exospaciac
Second reason: If I kill a Jailer with Darkblast, my Bridges get exiled, don't they? StP bypasses that problem.
With Jailer, the fastest it comes in is turn2 and I probably won't have any (or maybe 1) Bridge in my GY. If it comes down when I have multiple Bridges in my GY, I'm probably going to win already.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nidd
So, I prefer Darkblast over STP because Darkblast dredges, whereas STP has to be in my opening. Or I can hope to lucksack into it, but I'm a pretty unlucky guy, so that never turns out well.
I wanted to ask about sideboarding again after getting roflstomped by Elves combo in 5 post-sideboard games in a row.
What do you take out against a fast combo deck like that, that also has graveyard hate (in this case, 4 Crypts)?
For reference, I'm using McCall's list +1 Darkblast -1 Thug, and my sideboard looks like:
4 open slots (maybe Leyline of Sanctity/Void/Anticipation goes here?)
3 Ancient Grudge
4 Chain of Vapor
2 Nature's Claim
1 Terastodon
1 Ancestor's Chosen
I tried taking out combinations of Careful Studies, Darkblasts, and Dread Returns and singletons of Tireless Tribe, Ichorid, Breakthrough, and Golgari Thug.
He was able to either hate me out or combo off in my face every single time. It's impossible to dredge into a grudge, get your graveyard eaten, and still recover fast enough before they start comboing or just land a huge Warcaller. It seems like I just have to keep a hand with Therapy, name Crypt or Heritage Druid T1, and hope to race him before he gets a bunch of hasty x/x guys (or topdecks a crypt). Darkblast definitely helped, but only if I drew City of Brass or Gemstone Mine. This is the only matchup so far I've found where the life loss from Citadel mattered even a little bit.
In my SB, I have Iona and Flame-Kin Zealot (this might get cut sometime). I haven't really tested that matchup, but I guess I will try to slow them down via Cabal Therapy and Darkblast and DR a fast Iona. Like all combo matchups, Dredge is an underdog besides maybe LED-dredge since they can win turn1.
I just took first in our small toruney, won a Badlands.
StP proved to be the right call, sending a Jötun Grunt plowing was excellent ;)
Would you like to share your list and what were youre matchups?Quote:
Originally Posted by Nidd
I don't think that the Bridges get exiled. When a permanent changes it's gamezone, effects that happen before any triggers are treated like the permanent was still in it's original zone. Thus, the Bridges should only get their trigger again when Jailer is completely dead and he should therefore not trigger the Bridges. At least I've been killing a few Jailers in Vintage and no one ever complained about my Bridges not getting exiled.Quote:
Originally Posted by Nidd
Correct me if I'm wrong, though.
My list was:Quote:
Originally Posted by (nameless one)
// Lands
4 Gemstone Mine
4 City of Brass
4 Cephalid Coliseum
2 Tarnished Citadel
// Creatures
4 Putrid Imp
4 Tireless Tribe
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Thug
4 Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba
// Spells
4 Careful Study
4 Breakthrough
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Dread Return
4 Bridge from Below
// Sideboard
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Nature's Claim
3 Chain of Vapor
1 Dread Return
1 Caldera Hellion
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 Woodfall Primus
Swords really proved to be good at what I wanted them to do: Get rid of problematic creatures without killing my Bridges.
My MUs were:
First Round: Bye
Second Round: BG Rock (2-0)
Third Round: UBrw Planeswalker Control (2-0)
Fourth Round: BWg Suicide (2-1)
The Rock wasn't the most interactive opponent, as he was just getting back into the game - he had a deck from Mirrodin + Kamigawa Standard (which was a beast back then), but playing Kokushos in your deck isn't the best thing to do when wanting to win against Dredge. His most relevant cards that I saw were Maelstrom Pulse and Deed, which I therapied away.
G2 I sided in only Iona and I reanimated her, naming B on my 3rd turn - which was game.
The third round was... well, it was interesting.
G1 I just smash him, as his MB isn't prepared to deal with Dredge.
G2 takes a long time. Somewhere, between me not finding any Narcomoebas for ~ 8 turns, neither finding an Ichorid for 6 turns (which gets extirpated immediately), my first Dredger gets extirpated (Stinky). I therapy away his hand with some random dorks and the resulting tokens (EE, Firespout), still not having found something remotely relevant to win. He managed to find Nicol Bolas in the last 2 turns, which might be good against other decks - but definitely not this one. I DR a Woodfall Primus, kill Bolas with it and that's game.
Fourth round was the MU I prepared for with my StPs, as he was playing Jailers (SB) + Jötun Grunts (MB).
G1, I mull to 4 and announce the best hand possible with 4 cards. Gemstone, PImp, Stinky, CS. Not the best one, but one I'm thankful for. Long story short: Thoughtseize taking my CS, StP my PImp. Yeah... I dont draw relevant stuff til' turn 5 or so, when I'm pretty much dead. he got a Grunt up to 6 counters, which sealed the deal.
G2, I side in my StPs and 2 CoVs, siding out 2 Thugs, 1 Ichorid, 1 DR, 2 Careful Study. I open with Tribe, go, he opens with StP. In response, I discard my BfB and my Dredgers, he sighs. I play Careful Study, dredging 1 Ichorid and bullshit. At least my little friend has some fodder. He plays Jailer, which gets sent plowing EoT. He gives me the strange gaze "what in hell is that?" and I proceed to dredge. And I dredge the way it's supposed to be: The nuts. 3 Narcomoeba, 1 Bridge and 2 Therapys. Thank you, deck. End of story: Big GGT and some tokens for me, no hand for him. Sounds fair.
G3, he opens with... Land, go. I let lose a sigh of relief and play land, PImp, go. He plays Tidehollow Sculler, in response I empty my hand, safe for the Breakthrough and the CS I had. He takes the BT and I dredge for the nuts in my turn, making something along the lines of 8 Zombies and a big GGT. He shows me the Jailer he should've played instead of the Sculler, but he told me he was afraid of StP or CoV. Yay me!
I had to decide whether I'd pick a playset Standstill or 1 Badlands and I went with the Badlands. Eventually I have everything I need for Monored Goblins, maybe I'll play Rb Gobllins some time.
We debated about that one as well, but came to no conclusion. Doesn't matter anyways, as StP was a pure meta choice and also a substitute, because I couldn't find my DBs.Quote:
Originally Posted by Adan
If I was going to Columbus, I'd play this:
// Lands
4 [CH] City of Brass
4 [OD] Cephalid Coliseum
3 [OD] Tarnished Citadel
4 [TSB] Gemstone Mine
// Creatures
4 [OD] Tireless Tribe
4 [TO] Putrid Imp
4 [FUT] Narcomoeba
4 [TO] Ichorid
4 [RAV] Golgari Thug
4 [RAV] Stinkweed Imp
4 [RAV] Golgari Grave-Troll
// Spells
3 [OD] Careful Study
4 [TO] Breakthrough
3 [JU] Cabal Therapy
4 [FUT] Bridge from Below
3 [TSP] Dread Return
// Sideboard
SB: 1 [10E] Ancestor's Chosen
SB: 4 [TSP] Ancient Grudge
SB: 3 [JU] Ray of Revelation
SB: 1 [RAV] Flame-Kin Zealot
SB: 3 [WL] Firestorm
SB: 1 Angel of Despair
SB: 1 [ZEN] Sphinx of Lost Truths
SB: 1 [FNM] Cabal Therapy
The fourth Golgari Thug can be something else. The fourth Therapy is pretty important against combo decks. Angel kills Blazing Archon and Glacial Chasm for one slot. You could play 2 Claim 1 Ray if you're more worried about Leyline of the Void than you are Wheel of Sun and Moon. The Sphinx in the sideboard is like a second copy of all of the bullet creatures.
I usually board out some combination of Breakthroughs, a Therapy, an Ichorid, and a Thug. If you're bringing in Firestorms, you can start cutting Studies. A fourth Firestorm might be better than a fourth Ancient Grudge.
Aren't you busted against Leyline? Even if you play 2 Claim 1 Ray? I mean, it destroy us so badly that I play 6 hate cards...
I disagree with some stuff but if seems very consistent!
I don't think Leyline is a real card.
I would recommend having Angel of Despair or Terastodon main just to not be dead to random fringe decks.
I did awful at Knight Ware today, going 2-3 and getting the absolute worst series of dredges and mulligans I've ever gotten.
My list was frogboy's old list -1 Thug +1 Darkblast.
I'm convinced that Darkblast is nowhere near as useful as I thought it would be. The only relevant things I killed all day were a Cursecatcher and my own Narcomoeba. One person brought in Meddling Mages but I loled and won anyway. -2 and +2 Thugs.
I didn't sideboard in Coffin Purge at all, and it might not even be worth a slot now that Reanimator is gone. It might be good against random decks that recur EE, but I think the deck has better cards to side in.
I wanted to ask: how often does everyone usually mulligan with the deck? I mulled to 4 three times today and to 5 a few more times. My biggest missing piece was a draw spell, which was kind of odd.
On that note, how often should I keep hands with no draw pieces against an unknown opponent? I definitely remember mulliganing an "okay" hand with no draw pieces to try to find one, but it ended up backfiring pretty badly.
Sometimes you get got.Quote:
Originally Posted by indefinite.soul
Other times, they don't draw it.
Leyline is by far the least popular sideboard card, anyway.
I'm personally very hesitant to mull anything with dredgers and lands, especially in the first game where DDD is usually good enough to get there. If I happen to know my opponent is not running counters I'll look more aggresively for a permanent outlet or draw spell but otherwise I tend to ship very few hands back. Having the abilit to discard at the end of my turn is not something I throw away readily - I'm sure (know) some people here disagree with that idea, but for what it's worth that's what I've found to be a best practice.Quote:
Originally Posted by Exospaciac
I mulligan all the time, and I don't mulligan enough. Any hand with Narcomeobas in your hand has a few blanks already, so the mulligans are free. And if you're DDDing, you have a ton of blanks in your hand. Going to 6 and even 5 is not really a big deal.
Proper mulling with this deck is the most important thing, even more important than proper SBing, I'd say. In my report up there, R4G1, I shipped back hand after hand, because they all lacked crucial things - Mull to 4 presented me Land, Dredger, Outlet, Draw. What else can you ask for?
How about as a sideboard:
4 - Leyline of Sanctity
4 - Chain of Vapors
4 - Unmask
2 - Firestorm
1 - Terastodon
Sanctity blocks off Crypt and Trap, not to mention the random assortments of things your opponents can throw at you.
Chain of Vapors is a great answer to just about anything. Kills Leyline of the Void pretty hard.
Unmask gets rid of Trap, Crypt, Relic, Macabre, Jailer, and just about any other hate your opponent cant play turn 1. So basically all hate besides Leyline.
Firestorm can kill Jailer, Grunt, Withered Wretch. Though, to be honest, I would rather have 2 more DR targets such as Iona and Sundering Titan.
Terastodon is a destroy 3 for 1. Turning cards like Ghosty Prison, Elephant Grass, Propoganda, Solitary Confinement, and such into 3/3 elephants is gaming winning in and of its self. If need be, it can target your opponents lands, giving that extra edge the next turn to win the game.
In Legacy, Ancient Grudge is simply too good not to play in your sideboard. 3 should be minimum, but I wouldn't play less than 4. Relic/Crypt are the most common hate cards and I wouldn't want to rely on Unmask/Leyline of Sanctity to deal with them.
I suppose, but Unmask hits anything thats a threat and the Leyline shuts off Trap which is by far the best answer to dredge.Quote:
Originally Posted by kikoo
Perhaps this would be a better option:
4 - Leyline of Sanctity
4 - Chain of Vapors
4 - Unmask
2 - Ancient Grudge
1 - Terastodon
The only problem I have with Grudge is that it costs 2 which means no turn 1 destroy Crypt and when you can cast it from the grave, they would have played their crypt or relic.