Re: [Archetype] CounterTop
Quote:
Originally Posted by
SupREME-10
Well I do have plenty of Fetchlands available to me so I could easily throw in +6 fetchlands - 6 Islands; but that also would open me up to Stifle users which I do see in my meta.
Thanks for the input as it is certainly something to try out.
I have said this before, and I am saying it again now. You should know every time you are going to be Stifled, and you should know when to play around it, when to take the risk, and when to bait the Stifle. Play skill is essential in all decks; in this one that is especially true.
If you can't do what I've described, then you do not understand the format and the deck well enough to understand how to build a proper list. Magic is one of the most difficult games ever made--you can't walk into it expecting to be good at it without putting in the work.
Re: [Archetype] CounterTop
I highly doubt that this kind of deck works without at least 22 lands, especially if you run a whole bunch of nonbasics.
Re: [Archetype] CounterTop
Originally posted this in the next level threshold thread, but since it's a mix of that and this, I'll post it here too:
Been playing RUG CB-tempo (basically thresh with CB, for simplicity) last few weeks but wasn't happy with being both tempo and CB, so I brewed into something different.
I know this is basically GerryT's list without PFs:
(4 Delver of Secrets
OR
4 Snapcaster Mage)
4 Tarmogoyf
3 Vendilion Clique
4 Force of Will
3 Spell Snare
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Dismember
4 Brainstorm
1 Counterspell
2 Jace
4 Counterbalance
4 Sensei's Divining Top
8 Fetch
3 Tropical Island
3 Volcanic Island
2 Island
1 Mountain
4 Wasteland
Thoughts? Enough Flippage for Delver? 4 Tops should help, they are best friends. Is Snapcaster too mana-intensive for CB/Top-decks?
I know some people think PF is godsent, I still won't play it, so that's not the opinions I want.
Re: [Archetype] CounterTop
I am actually not new to MTG, I took about a 10 year hyatis and am now rebuilding and building some decks to get back into the scene. Yes the rules changed a little (stack timings and priority, etc) but I have been lurking for some time before I actually spoke here in "the Source" and I do play fairly often. Even made it to an event or three in the last year. No top 8's in big events yet; but between Sligh, Merfolk, Solidarity, and U/W Stoneblade I have done well enough (for a returning old dude that is on a bit of a budget). I liked what I saw in the Counter-Top deck style I started to play with the deck and simply started it with the basics in the hopes that some people would actually explain their reasoning behing using certain things instead of just blurting out -here + there.
I started with Mono-blue as that was the tech I was most used to. Sligh, Merfolk, and Solidarity all being Mono colour decks. I certainly understand how to bait a Stifle, etc; but I really do appreciate your comment as it is very relavent and true; and I thank you for you no non-sence but discriptive answer. As I mentioned I don't own every card in the MTG library; but I have been able to trade into most things I want in a couple weeks so I am not overly daunted by card cost, etc. I secretly managed to retain 20-ish dual lands and some spare Force of Wills to use as trader cards from when I left MTG on my Hyatis.
Now as you might see from my most recent deck list, I have been altering the deck to come to a better end product; but I am still open to ideas and suggestions.
Land == 20
2 x Flooded Strand -- fetch to manipulate
2 x Misty Rainforest -- fetch to manipulate
2 x Scalding Tarn -- fetch to manipulate
4 x Island -- basic
4 x Tundra -- splash
4 x Mutavault -- creature and a faerie (could easily be basic lands or Mishra's Factory should I drop the Sprites).
2 x Riptide Laboratory -- utility land
1 Drops == 15
4 x Sensei's Divining Top -- key component to manipulate Library
4 x Brainstorm -- hand and library manipulation + card draw
3 x Spell Snare -- stop those 2 drops
4 x Swords to Plowshares -- exile opponent fatties that land.
2 Drops == 15 -- trying for about 12-14 (suggestions welcome)
2 x Umezawa's Jitte -- versatile equipment
4 x Counterbalance -- key component to achieve lockdown
2 x Counterspell -- for when a hard counter (thinking +1 here)
2 x Daze -- soft counter for early game (thinking of dropping)
3 x Snapcaster Mage -- instant recursion for graveyard cards (thinking +1 here)
2 x Spellstutter Sprite -- creature that helps counterspells (thinking of dropping)
3 Drops == 4 -- trying for about 6-8 (suggestions welcome)
2 x Vedalken Shackles -- use the opponents fatties (thinking +1 here)
2 x Vendilion Clique -- control with punch (thinking +1 here)
4 Drops == 3 -- trying for about 3-4 (suggestions welcome)
3 x Jace, the Mind Sculptor -- fateseal (thinking of +1 Elspeth, Knight Errant but maybe drop a JTMS too))
5 Drops == 4
4 x Force of Will -- counterspells without mana if needed
Sideboard
* 2 x Ratchet Bomb
* 2 x Relic of Progenitus
* 2 x Tormod's Crypt
* 2 x Flusterstorm
* 2 x Llawan, Cephalid Empress
* 1 x Spell Pierce
* 2 x Disenchant
* 2 x Path to Exile
Anyway, like I said; this is a deck that I am working on and will continue to refine as I gain more experience etc. I thank you all for the discussion as I really does help a lot, and I look forward to eventually completing this deck to a competitive level as my skills continue to improve to where they were all those years ago.
Re: [Archetype] CounterTop
First thing to point out is that this deck needs at least 22 Lands and being honest, I'd rather tend to 23. I mean, the Countertop lock requires a lot of mana (since you also want to keep Fetchlands uncracked for the shuffle effect) and therefore your goal is to hit a landdrop at least the first 3 turns, not to mention that Jace is a 4 mana spell and snapcaster mage requires at least 3 mana for proper use as well. Besides, Wasteland is everywhere and you run 0 basic plains(!) while having 6 colorless nonbasics in an insufficient amount of lands. And as I've stated earlier, you ought to pack at least 8 Fetchlands since Jace, Brainstorm and especially Counterbalance get indefinitely better by every additional shuffling effect. This is my proposal:
4 Flooded Strand
4 Scalding Tarn
4 tundra
1-2 Plains (depends on the amount of Counterspells/wraths/elspeth)
9 Island
Furthermore, those 2 Umezawa's Jittes seem to be completely out of place considering that you run only 7 creatures (equiping mutavault is simply too uneffective and requires too much mana). I know that I adviced you to run at least 12 CC2 cards but as I mentioned, there are other valid options for this spot which fit in the deck's gameplan more overall. ( more counterspells, phantasmal image etc. ).
So this would be the most crucial things that should definitely be changed. There are some other cards which I'd normally not agree with but I know that every player has got his own preferences and running spellstutter or daze is legit to some extent...
Re: [Archetype] CounterTop
Quote:
Originally Posted by
SupREME-10
I certainly understand how to bait a Stifle, etc; but I really do appreciate your comment as it is very relavent and true; and I thank you for you no non-sence but discriptive answer.
Welcome back. I think if you feel mono-blue is the route to go, you should have at it. Mono-blue (that isn't merfolk) is gaining a lot of power right now as their win-cons are starting to require less of the other splashes.
With BS/Ponder and SDT, you should consider playing the Delver of Secrets.
Assuming you ignore the white splash, I think some other strong blue removal except for Vendalken Shackles is Repeal and Echoing Truth. You can consider those. I would also cut Daze for hard counters like Counter Spell and Spell Snare because a control deck that runs CBT and Vendalken Shackles doesn't really want to slow themselves down with Daze.
I think if you cut the Spellstutters and Daze to make room for some Ponders, you should be fine. You could even consider dropping an SDT since you run Snapcaster to bring back your Brainstorms/Ponders.
Oh yeah, you never want to run Jitte in a deck that runs less than 15 creatures, so cut that for sure. You are probably better off with Cursed Scroll.
But I think the best way to go about a monolist is really just Stifle + Phyrexian Dreadnought. You solve a lot of problems that way.
Re: [Archetype] CounterTop
Within three more sets or so, a mono-blue Countertop should be viable.
Re: [Archetype] CounterTop
Quote:
Originally Posted by
DragoFireheart
Within three more sets or so, a mono-blue Countertop should be viable.
Uh, may I point out Probasco's list from GP: Chicago 2009? I guess he did splash for EE.
Re: [Archetype] CounterTop
I wouldn't run Stifle-Dreadnaught in a mono blue list; those cards don't do enough, and are way outside the plan of the deck. I'd rather just win with some combination of Shackles, Jace, Trinket Mage, Snapcaster, and Delver.
The issue with being mono blue is that you gain very little by being one color, whereas having a second color gains you so much.
Re: [Archetype] CounterTop
Just a random interjection. Testing this list for (with a lot of smaller/sometimes bigger changes) the last two months.
// Lands
4 Flooded Strand
1 Plains
2 Tundra
6 Island
1 Mountain
4 Scalding Tarn
2 Volcanic Island
1 Plateau
1 Karakas
// Creatures
3 Vendilion Clique
3 Snapcaster Mage
// Spells
4 Counterspell
3 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Counterbalance
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Brainstorm
3 Force of Will
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Vedalken Shackles
2 Pyroclasm
3 Spell Pierce
1 Enlightened Tutor
2 Lightning Helix
1 Isochron Scepter
// Sideboard
SB: 1 Enlightened Tutor
SB: 3 Surgical Extraction
SB: 1 Propaganda
SB: 2 Stifle
SB: 3 Red Elemental Blast
SB: 1 Moat
SB: 1 Energy Flux
SB: 1 Blood Moon
SB: 1 Seal of Cleansing
SB: 1 Phyrexian Metamorph
I only wanne know, if u think, hmmm probably interesting or what the hell, total bullshit.
gl+hf
Re: [Archetype] CounterTop
Posting a deck list and not explaining the choices you made that differ from the norm isn't very useful.
Re: [Archetype] CounterTop
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Malakai
I wouldn't run Stifle-Dreadnaught in a mono blue list; those cards don't do enough, and are way outside the plan of the deck. I'd rather just win with some combination of Shackles, Jace, Trinket Mage, Snapcaster, and Delver.
The issue with being mono blue is that you gain very little by being one color, whereas having a second color gains you so much.
Dreadstill can play with all of those. You are just shoving a fast win-con so you don't have to deal with Thrun directly. It's a very viable strategy. The only problem is, it takes up a lot of slots, which is fine in a mono coloured list.
You can still play Snapcasters and Delvers in a Dreadstill list.
Re: [Archetype] CounterTop
Thanks Jin for that note up there; here is where I initially put a mono-blue CounterTop deck.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
SupREME-10
Now from that I so see that Fetchlands help a lot, so lets switch it over to have some 6-8 fetches.
Then I drop the Jitte's (no issue there as it gives my room for Ponder as you mentioned -- although with the Mutavaults I was at some 14 creatures).
Drop the Daze for more Spell Snare (again not an issue).
And Stifle could stay or go, but some form of Bounce is needed if I am not land stalling fetches, etc; so lets say Repeal goes into that slot. (I don't own any Phyrexian Dreadnaughts although I do like them).
OK, so now I relook at the deck from the 0-1-2-3-4-5 standpoint.
0 drops == 21
8 x Snow Covered Island
2 x Flooded Strand
3 x Scalding Tarn
3 x Misty Rainforest
3 x Mutavault
2 x Riptide Laboratory
1 drop == 16
4 x Brainstorm
2 x Ponder
4 x Sensei's Divining Top
3 x Spell Snare
3 x Delver of Secrets
2 drop == 13
4 x Counterbalance
2 x Echoing Truth
4 x Counterspell
3 x Snapcaster Mage
3 drop == 4
2 x Vedalken Shackles
2 x Vendilion Clique and I know 3 would be better but I have not found a third yet and this is real life not internet fantasy so I will let you know when I can pry one more from somebodies bloody fingers. I might drop a SDT if I do find another V-Clique though
4 drop == 3
3 x Jace, the Mind Sculptor
5 drop = 4
4 x Force of Will
So set the sideboard aside for now, is this actually a decent starting point ? Is 19 options on flipping a Delver of Secrets enough, how do the numbers look, etc ? Oh and with my 11 creatures the Umezawa's Jitte in place of echoing truth might actually have more relevance as it can turn into a good removal package, or life, or added punching power as needed.
Yes it loses the removal that the white splash offered it as well as some sideboard options that is for sure; but I actually am thinking of going a bit rogue with this deck and going back to mono-blue for a while. I like simplicity sometimes and this is a hobby deck for me, I already have Merfolk, U/W StoneBlade, Solidarity, and Sligh completed for daily usage.
Thanks in advance and no points will be discounted but at least now I do feel that both the Mono-Blue version and the U/W version I was stringing together might both have good playing options.
Re: [Archetype] CounterTop
Note: I don't know how the following applies to Thopter lists.
At this point I am starting to think that Countertop lists need to run 8 pieces of removal. 4 of those should be a 1cc removal spell--most of the time this is going to be Swords to Plowshares.
Basically, CounterTop is a late-game engine, and it is a dominant one. We need to ensure that we get there. You always have the option of just jamming 4 Path to Exile, but the downside of that card is a lot more real than them just gaining life.
I'm not sure what the correct shell is, but it starts with choosing your creatures; the plans that I can see working are:
- Stoneforge Mystic -- Stoneforge can be kind of slow, especially if the opponent doesn't let you untap with it. However, what it does for the Merfolk matchup can't be ignored. It also beats up on jank decks if you don't have byes going into the tournament--something which is becoming a lot more common.
- Tarmogoyf -- The one issue with running Goyfs is that you'll probably be forced to go 4-color, or run 4 PTE.
- Delver -- I don't really like this option that much, as you're really just jamming CounterTop into a UR Delver shell, a plan which I feel weakens both strategies.
- Dark Confidant -- You get Ghastly Demise, Inquisition (if you want it), plus Perish out of the board; however, Bob can't block and isn't great for beating down either, which starts to make him more of a late-game engine as well.
Re: [Archetype] CounterTop
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Malakai
[*]Dark Confidant -- You get Ghastly Demise, Inquisition (if you want it), plus Perish out of the board; however, Bob can't block and isn't great for beating down either, which starts to make him more of a late-game engine as well.[/LIST]
You can drop Bobs early to force them to spend mana getting rid of him. If they don't, they lose to the card advantage we get. If they get rid of him, it buys us some time.
The biggest threats are things like KotR or swarms. Going a punishing Fire route with Firespout backup can help for the swarms, while having more main-deck removal to kill big creatures like KotR will solve those.
I do agree that we need 8 main deck removal. 4 STP and 4 of something else is absolutely needed. Having a Tarmogofy when decks can search for KotR or Scavenging Ooze makes him seem very lackluster. Perhaps splashing black for Lilly (to fill our 3cmc) for create killing could work?
Re: [Archetype] CounterTop
4 Brainstorm
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Force of Will
4 Counterbalance
3 Spell Snare
2 Spell Pierce
1 Counterspell
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
3 Jace, the Mindsculptor
1 Elspeth Knight-Errant
2 Vendilion Clique
4 Flooded Strand
1 Plains
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Mountain
3 Tundra
2 Volcanic Island
7 Island
I am super happy with this list. I sideboard in Grim Lavamancers in the mirror, REB against combo decks and Merfolk, Firespout against Zoo, and I have a random Blood Moon and some combo hate.
This is heavily metagamed against beating the other blue decks. Since Spell Snare is on the rise, you really want to use your turn 3 to drop a CB (or I guess a SFM) with counter-backup. You don't need the full 4 Snare because you don't really care about Snapcasters in the late game.
I seriously question whether the equipment package should just be 2 Batterskull. My main concern is that the UW Caw lists have a ton of flyers (Clique isn't a trump if they have a Spellstutter Sprite), so being able to put SoFI on my guy to punch through and kill their Jace could be very important.
Re: [Archetype] CounterTop
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Anusien
4 Brainstorm
4 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Force of Will
4 Counterbalance
3 Spell Snare
2 Spell Pierce
1 Counterspell
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Stoneforge Mystic
1 Batterskull
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
3 Jace, the Mindsculptor
1 Elspeth Knight-Errant
2 Vendilion Clique
4 Flooded Strand
1 Plains
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Mountain
3 Tundra
2 Volcanic Island
7 Island
I am super happy with this list. I sideboard in Grim Lavamancers in the mirror, REB against combo decks and Merfolk, Firespout against Zoo, and I have a random Blood Moon and some combo hate.
This is heavily metagamed against beating the other blue decks. Since Spell Snare is on the rise, you really want to use your turn 3 to drop a CB (or I guess a SFM) with counter-backup. You don't need the full 4 Snare because you don't really care about Snapcasters in the late game.
I seriously question whether the equipment package should just be 2 Batterskull. My main concern is that the UW Caw lists have a ton of flyers (Clique isn't a trump if they have a Spellstutter Sprite), so being able to put SoFI on my guy to punch through and kill their Jace could be very important.
This belongs to app. 3 months ago (there's a very similar list in another SFM-CBtop thread in Developmental), and totally folds to Maverick. Already tried.
Re: [Archetype] CounterTop
I am not really worried about Maverick with this list.
Re: [Archetype] CounterTop
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Anusien
I am not really worried about Maverick with this list.
You have some brass one Anusien. However, the list does not look like it can sustain any positive board presence against a good Maverick list. How does it answer a steady stream of GSZ targets? Or even a Thrun?
Re: [Archetype] CounterTop
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Anusien
I am not really worried about Maverick with this list.
Can you clarify why, exactly, that is?
