[Deck] GW/x Maverick

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Originally Posted by mini1337s

Great report Koopa.
I'm starting to lose faith in the SFM package (and especially in Sword of Fire and Ice). Jitte is amazing versus most decks, but I find myself siding out 3x Stoneforge, 1x B-Skull, 1x Sword of F+I most games. I'm usually bringing in effects like Thalia (some sort of roadblock like Ethersworn in my pre-Dark Ascension build). At this point, I'm testing without the Stoneforge package, replacing 3x SFM 1x SFI and 1x B-Skull with 3x Thalia, upping my Jitte count to 2, and upped my Scavenging Ooze to 2.
I'm also going to go crazy and try the Fauna/Retainers/Elesh Norn package, but am waiting for the cards.

Is Thalia strong enough to be a 3x inclusion in the GW version of the deck now? I laughed when I saw GWr versions in the SCG Top 16 running 3x of it and P-Fire, but I remembered all the good players were at the GP

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After this weekend at the GP I don't think I will cut SFM. Her grabbing Jitte or Sword of Light and Shadow was just very good. Even if my opponent killed her before I could cheat in the equipment (which is fine as long as it isn't Batterskull, a card I hate anyway) it just meant that they had one less removal for my actual threats. Sword of Fire and Ice is just pretty bad right now. Having pro-red isn't relevant and you want a pro-green sword. You can make an argument for Feast and Famine in the Punishing versions, but then you having two pro-black swords (since Light&Shadown is a lock IMO).

I think the biggest mistake people have is that Batterskull is still seeing play in Maverick.

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Originally Posted by Nik842

And if your opponent doesn't control any forests?
I'm not saying I'm for Gut shot, but it works better than putting the card back on top of the person's library.

I'm not sure if you were being serious with submerge or not.

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You've probably never had a Knight Submerged. It's a huge tempo swing. It's also very frequently a straight up removal spell given the huge number of shuffle effects Knight decks tend to run.

As for the question of them not having any Forests; the matchups where you want additional removal and where your opponent runs forests isn't 100%, but it's certainly very broad and covers the majority of cases, particularly of tough matchups.

Gut Shot by comparison can't do anything to a Knight, and Path to Exile is liable to backfire very badly against many decks.

Great day with mav! I don't know about Gut Shot, maybe its that good. Our life total is one of our liabilities as is, so I am leery about it. I think we need something that kills Goblin Guide as well. Just not Path, I pathed a guide and the dude got a basic mountain and then fireblasted me. That was pretty cool, for him. We can't afford to lose the mana resource race. SoFI was awesome for me all day, its really hard to cut that when we are soft to burn and some of the u/r delver decks. Plus we have so little draw, I think that card is just too good. Anyway, congrats on making day 2!

I'm playing with Fire and Ice right now (alongside Jitte and Light and Shadow), and am definitely going to switch over to Body and Mind. It provides better protection colors and is much stronger in matchups that I need it. Fire and Ice is good all around, but I just never, ever want to tutor it up.

I'm not sure why people want pro-blue exactly. You're so scared shitless that they're going to be using their Jace the Mind Sculptor to bounce a dork every turn? You're terrified of them blocking with Snapcaster? Is there a scenario where Delver is being thrown in front of a Knight that you're not going to win anyway?

I mean all things being equal, pro-blue is great, sure, but it's less relevant than pro-black for reasons of Germs alone, and SoFF has a hugely swingy connect ability where SoBM can easily shoot yourself in the foot by filling up their yard, which it turns out is a resource a lot of Legacy decks take advantage of pretty well.

I don't know how anyone has been paying attention to the unwashed masses suddenly deciding Lingering Souls is the new defining card in Legacy and came away with the conclusion that they want to give their opponents Dredge 10.

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Originally Posted by TheInfamousBearAssassin

I don't know how anyone has been paying attention to the unwashed masses suddenly deciding Lingering Souls is the new defining card in Legacy and came away with the conclusion that they want to give their opponents Dredge 10.

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I agree with this. In a format where we are maximizing the effectiveness of the cards in your graveyard is of huge importance, I don't think we can afford to run SoBM. Instant-Threshold, Lingering Souls, Snapcaster targets, growing Goyfs, growing opposing KOTRs, etc.. make the card too risky to run at the moment, as any of these things can result in a huge tempo swing in your opponents favor.

I think that SoFF, while the tempo swing isn't as big as it is in more controlish decks, it is big enough compared to SoBM that if you are valuing Pro-Green over Pro-Blue, you should be running it. Having two Pro-Black swords is kind of awkward, but ultimately, I think you have to consider what you are more worried of, Burn and getting things bounced by Jace/Submerge? Or attacking through a wall of green creatures?

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Originally Posted by TheInfamousBearAssassin

I'm not sure why people want pro-blue exactly. You're so scared shitless that they're going to be using their Jace the Mind Sculptor to bounce a dork every turn? You're terrified of them blocking with Snapcaster? Is there a scenario where Delver is being thrown in front of a Knight that you're not going to win anyway?

I mean all things being equal, pro-blue is great, sure, but it's less relevant than pro-black for reasons of Germs alone, and SoFF has a hugely swingy connect ability where SoBM can easily shoot yourself in the foot by filling up their yard, which it turns out is a resource a lot of Legacy decks take advantage of pretty well.

I don't know how anyone has been paying attention to the unwashed masses suddenly deciding Lingering Souls is the new defining card in Legacy and came away with the conclusion that they want to give their opponents Dredge 10.

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If I am playing against a deck with Stoneforge and Batterskull, I would get SoLaS...

Body and Mind at least protects from bounce like Submerge (that card you just said was really good), Jace, and can be randomly relevant on Teeg or Canonist against combo. It makes bodies too.

Yes, Submerge is really good because it's free so you don't have to be worried about being tapped out when you put the guy they spent two mana equipping back on top of their deck. So not really a big argument for SoBM.

Lets break it down by logic and reductions:

SoBM gives Pro:g: and Pro:u:, which :g: creatures would you want to walk past? Goyfs, Mongoose, or the mirror. In the case of the first two, Knight is just bigger regardless. In the latter, Pro:g::u: is next to useless and works against you by growing their Knights. The triggered abilities are weak and don't provide added value whatsoever; just another creature (wait you did connect right? they don't have blockers then) and a not quite useful Dredge 10.

SoFI gives Pro:r: and Pro:u:, which is admittedly self defeating if protecting from Lightning Bolt. However, the key use for this one isn't the protection, but rather than two triggers. The damage source is still colorless and provides another way to remove Mother of Runes, and also more importantly, provides immediate damage in a racing condition - two more than any other sword including Jitte. This is used against decks that typically don't have creatures such as Combo, Show & Tell, etc.

SoLS gives Pro:w: and Pro:b:, which are the strongest reasons for running the sword. The triggers sometimes do matter, both in recursion and life gain. However the protections are more important than the triggers for this sword still.

SoWP is unplayable in Legacy.

SoFF gives Pro:g: and Pro:b:, which again are pretty weak as mentioned above regarding green. This sword gives a good disruption against decks trying to combo you out, and provides you more mana. I doubt the protection is relevant enough compared to its triggers - much like SoFI.

IBA, will you be writing a tourney report? I'm interested in hearing how the planeswalkers worked out, mostly garruk.

Funny how everyone always disagrees on the Swords subject.

I would like to say the following:

SoFaI
Pro's: Very nice when it connects. Damage is always good, card draw also. Completely destroys Merfolk and Goblins. Pro blue is awesome against Jace, Delver, Clique, Mind Harness, Submerge if they draw it after you've equipped.
Con's: No one plays Merfs and Gobbos nowadays. Awkward protections make it hard to get this sword connecting.

SoFaF
Pro's: Protection from big beasts, Germs and black removal is nice. Discard can be useful, so can untapping your lands.
Con's: Connecting doesn't change the game state. Untapping is often unnecessary since you are already doing well when you connect with creature+sword. Discard is chosen by the opponent, and therefor often doesn't stop combo players (apart from the fact that a combo player usually kills you before you connect with a sword).

SoLaS
Pro's: Protection from all relevant main deck removal is very good. Protection from Germs, Mystics, Moms and so on also. Three life is never bad and returning a creature can be a game winner.
Con's: None, really. Pretty sweet thing, this is.

SoBaM
Pro's: Protection from Jace, Delver, Clique, Mind Harness, Submerge and big beasts. Actually, this has protection from RUG Delver, since the +2/+2 usually gets the critter out of burn range. Connecting gets you a wolf, that in return can be used as blocker, so you can more often attack despite your opponent having a counterattack ready. The milling can sometimes mill relevant stuff, and Ranger/Hierarch+SoBaM is a four turn clock instead of a six turn one.
Con's: Milling can be a drawback against some decks.

SoWaP
Pro's: Completely destroys Zoo.
Con's: The above mentioned is a bit narrow. :tongue:

It all depends on what you want from your sword really. In the mirror, I lost against a SoBaM because he got a wolf that blocked my hit-for-the-win. Well actually he misplayed and I still won, but if I would have sat at his side of the table, I would have had a proper token and not have forgot about it. In the mirror, I like SoBaM better than SoFaF. Also, a connecting SoBaM completely kills RUG Delver, which is rather popular right now. The milling is a disadvantage in this matchup, but in return you get a 2/2 wolf per turn for defense and a 4 turn clock. The milling won't even matter before he is dead. Against that flashback token thing, you just side it out or get SoLaS and proceed to win yor game.

Furthermore, I think SoLaS is the best choice right now because it's versatile and has the best protections. SoFaI is brilliant against decks that I don't see very often, and SoFaF is in my opinion too cutesy. The connecting abilities are nice but don't help me win a losing battle. And that is the material point: What does your sword do when you are in an equal or bad position? If your position is winning, any sword will do. If your position if fckd, which sword would help the most?

I would recommend:
1. SoLaS
2. SoBaM
(3. SoFaI)
(4. SoFaF)
And since Zoo isn't that popular right now, I would recommend you don' t play SoWaP at all.

But if above mentioned arguments make you decide otherwise, that's fine too. Just remember that a sword should be good when your board position is equal or bad. hen add up matchups you expect and do the math.

I actually did play the green sun package along with Elesh Norn. People I tested with the night before also thought that it would be a good surprise (but not good if they knew about it), but even though they knew it was coming everyone I tested the "mirror" with couldn't do much to stop it. I think Elesh just completely stomps the mirror, and it'll gain a lot of value with linger souls catching on. I also beat several linger souls matchups with her. She's not inconsistent like people claim, as I hard cast her without a cradle several times. I was running around the room 30 min before the tournament trying to figure out a 60th card, and Gerry told me to add a 24th land. That was probably the best addition to the deck. Here's the list:

http://www.wizards.com/Magic/Magazin...gpind12/day2#2

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Originally Posted by Asthereal

SoFaI
Pro's: Very nice when it connects. Damage is always good, card draw also. Completely destroys Merfolk and Goblins.

SoBaM
Pro's: Protection from Jace, Mind Harness, Submerge (yes they can draw it after you equip too, so it DOES matter), big beasts.
...
Con's: Milling can be a drawback against some decks.

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Nice summary. However I find it odd that you listed all the good blue stuff that BaM protects you from and did not put any of it down for FaI? They both protect you from Delver and Snapcaster and random stuff like Jin-Gitaxias and Sphinx. The other con of both of them is they fall off when your opponent is playing Painter.

My view is that the first sword you pick should have protection from Blue, and the second should be based on what you think the meta is going to be like.

Personally, I think the first sword is Jitte :p
The second should be light and shadow since we run many utillity creautes that will die and getting more use out of them puts it over the top.
The third will most likely be batterskull. Since turn 3 batterskull "just wins", also dropping this in via show and tell means you can race a progenitus!
I can also understand why non-punishing mavericks would want fire and ice in order to at least get SOME recursive removal.

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Originally Posted by DrHealex

Personally, I think the first sword is Jitte :p
The second should be light and shadow since we run many utillity creautes that will die and getting more use out of them puts it over the top.
The third will most likely be batterskull. Since turn 3 batterskull "just wins", also dropping this in via show and tell means you can race a progenitus!
I can also understand why non-punishing mavericks would want fire and ice in order to at least get SOME recursive removal.

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Batterskull was not that impressive for me. It doesn't provide any protections and is a bit of a liability if they kill your SFM. I never felt the need for it with Jitte in the deck.

Batterskull has its uses in some metagames that pack a ton of tier 2 decks like tribal and burn. In more developped metagames cutting it makes more sense since the other swords and Jitte are better. Jitte really is the most useful equipment however. It doesn't really matter which Sword of X/Y you run provided it has utility for you. This isn't as big of an issue as were making it to be.

It is true that the question which sword is best is not all that important, since in 80% of the cases, just any sword will do. But we need to discuss something, right?

I agree that Jitte is the best equipment out there. I disagree to Batterskull as third equipment. It can be good, but 5 mana is just too much. I can win if I have 5 mana. I refuse to spend it on a 4/4 lifelinker. If Tribal becomes popular again, I will include it in my sideboard, because they have difficulties killing the SFM, but that's it.

I'll edit my earlier post, noting that pro-blue advantages obviously count for both SoBaM and SoFaI.

If you're not finding any utility to a given Sword outside of +2/+2, then just cut SFM for more Jittes and lower your mana curve.

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Originally Posted by Jak

IBA, will you be writing a tourney report? I'm interested in hearing how the planeswalkers worked out, mostly garruk.

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He was great, I'll be getting to the report probably tomorrow.

Testing the Elesh/Retainers build right now - might rock it for SCG Sacramento this weekend. Anyone who's played with it before - any tips?

My tournament report for Grand Prix Indy is up.

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