[Deck] U/R Delver

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Originally Posted by korstructure

5th Place at today's SCG Classic.

by Thomas Schleyel


http://sales.starcitygames.com//deck...p?DeckID=98927

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I built that deck and played a few games with it last night. The creature density made the decisions in the deck a bit more difficult. Protecting your threat is super important because you don't know when you'll get another one. It's a bit like infect in that way, only infect has other ways to find threats. 16 lands seems super greedy. I would be more comfortable with 18 in this build the three drops out of the board seem really hard to play on curve which is when you would want them. Unless you have daze or force back up rushing creatures out is rough. The deck still has the problem with emptying it's hand and not being able to reload fast enough. This deck is capable of stringing together a ton of damage out of no where. Stormchaser is better than expected, brainstorm or daze even if they pay for it protect him from bolt and the evasion is nice. I think I would like to see slip through space or some other cantrip in the deck somewhere maybe in the forked bolt or spell pierce slot. As a two of it should be fine.

What are your guys' thoughts on Eli's list from SCG Philly?

http://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/381082

Looks like a very different take compared to Thomas' list.

In these hyper aggro Delver lists, is having the 4th volc really necessary?

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Originally Posted by Jaytron

What are your guys' thoughts on Eli's list from SCG Philly?

http://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/381082

Looks like a very different take compared to Thomas' list.

In these hyper aggro Delver lists, is having the 4th volc really necessary?

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3 is enough, even in a wasteland heavy meta you can get away with three.

Here is the list I have been tinkering with. I got some games in tonight and it felt very smooth. It has its pro's and con's vs the Pyromancer build. I would love some feedback.

2 Wooded Foothills
2 Misty Rainforest
4 Scalding Tarn
4 Volcanic Island
1 Tropical Island
1 Mountain
2 Island

4 Monastery Swiftspear
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Stormchaser Mage

4 Lightning Bolt
3 Chain Lightning
3 Forked Bolt
2 Price of Progress

4 Daze
4 Force of Will

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Gitaxian Probe

SB: 2 Krosan Grip
SB: 1 Surgical Extraction
SB: 1 Blood Moon
SB: 1 Price of Progress
SB: 2 Flusterstorm
SB: 1 Grafdigger's Cage
SB: 1 Destructive Revelry
SB: 2 Rough // Tumble
SB: 1 Sulfuric Vortex
SB: 2 Pyroblast
SB: 1 Null Rod



Other board cards I have considered include: Excuisite Firecraft, Eidolon of the Great Revel, Hydroblast, Shattering Spree, Misdirection, Smash to Smithereens, Young Pyromancer, Dismember, Submerge, Set Adrift, and a couple others.

Thought about this guy?

http://media.wizards.com/2016/aksdjc...5u2huju8h0.png
http://media.wizards.com/2016/aksdjc...GqCTgD9RbU.png

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Originally Posted by tokugawa

thought about this guy?

http://media.wizards.com/2016/aksdjc...5u2huju8h0.png
http://media.wizards.com/2016/aksdjc...gqctgd9rbu.png

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seems bad man

Thing in the Ice does nothing for Legacy UR Delver. It's just too slow. I could see it being used in other decks in Modern and Legacy (Storm? Control?)... But, not our deck.

I, too, have been fiddling with a Stormchaser build. I have a deck put together at the moment. I'm not satisfied with the list, though. I'm in a hurry now, but I will try to expand more on this later tonight when I have some time. Need to get through my current MTGO Legacy league course and scratch out what points I can before I go back in with this deck. I'd like to get some feedback before I jump in.

EDIT: Okay, time to expand...

The Stormchaser Build I am on is the same as what was played at SCG Louisville: http://www.mtggoldfish.com/deck/377302#online

4 Delver of Secrets
4 Monastery Swiftspear
4 Stormchaser Mage

4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
2 Spell Pierce
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Forked Bolt
4 Price of Progress

2 Island
2 Mountain
4 Volcanic Island
8 fetch lands

My thoughts...
1) 16 lands seems greedy, even for a Delver deck. I want to go to 17 lands... I, personally, run 3 dual lands. So, 8 fetches, 3 duals and 6 basics (with the split dependent on whether I run Fireblast, see below).
2) Do we want Chain Lightning so we can burn their face off? Forked Bolt is good for clearing a path for our dudes to swing in, though. I'm really torn here.
3) 4x Price of Progress seems a bit much when in many match ups it is a dead card.


This deck seems to want to play a lot in the first main phase or after blockers are declared to pump the prowess triggers. Ways to take advantage of this...

1) Phyrexian mana:
1a) Ponder/Bstorm in to a Probe and cast Probe in to drawing the card you want. Or, even, chaining Probe in to Probe in to a third card.
1b) Is Gut Shot a possible one-of in the deck for that last little bit when tapped out and all-in on the attack?
1c) I've had success using Mutagenic Growth in my Modern UR Delver builds... Could it work in Legacy?

2) Daze-ing yourself:
2a) Cast a spell, then tap an Island to float 1 mana, then return the Island to your hand to cast Daze, then paying the 1 floating mana to Daze so your first spell resolves.
2b) If you haven't played a land that turn, you play the land you pulled back for Daze, allowing you to cast another 1cc burn spell or cantrip.
2c) This makes Daze a house in the deck... It doesn't just counter stuff in the early game or pitch to FoW in the late game.

3) Burn, baby, burn!
3a) Cut 2 Price of Progress for 2 Fireblast. Classic Burn deck finishing move, tap 2 for PoP then sac 2 for Fireblast. Before combat damage resolves to get the prowess triggers, too.
3b) Or, just a simple sac 2 mountains for Fireblast when tapped out before combat damage resolves.
3c) Again, Gut Shot, maybe?

In summary... I'm really trying to jam as many "free" spells in here as I can. I've had zero time to test any of this out, aside from goldfishing. LMK your thoughts. Cheers! :)

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Originally Posted by dave78pdx

My thoughts...
1) 16 lands seems greedy, even for a Delver deck. I want to go to 17 lands... I, personally, run 3 dual lands. So, 8 fetches, 3 duals and 6 basics (with the split dependent on whether I run Fireblast, see below).
2) Do we want Chain Lightning so we can burn their face off? Forked Bolt is good for clearing a path for our dudes to swing in, though. I'm really torn here.
3) 4x Price of Progress seems a bit much when in many match ups it is a dead card.

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I had the same conclusion about the lands and also only play 3 volcs. I immediately went to the same land configuration you had after several awkward hands, it seems more optimal.
I like chain lightning a lot but wonder what the opportunity cost of it is over something else. I was thinking a 2 of as bolt 5 & 6 seemed ok.
Price of progress is rarely a dead card for me, especially game one.

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Originally Posted by dave78pdx

This deck seems to want to play a lot in the first main phase or after blockers are declared to pump the prowess triggers. Ways to take advantage of this...

1) Phyrexian mana:
1a) Ponder/Bstorm in to a Probe and cast Probe in to drawing the card you want. Or, even, chaining Probe in to Probe in to a third card.
1b) Is Gut Shot a possible one-of in the deck for that last little bit when tapped out and all-in on the attack?
1c) I've had success using Mutagenic Growth in my Modern UR Delver builds... Could it work in Legacy?

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1a--Yes brainstorming and holding git probe and using it to draw a spell you actually wanted to pump your team is a great strategy. Same with ponder and putting git probe on top then drawing the second card. Just don't be overly clever and not allow your delver to flip when doing this.
1b-It's an option, it seems overly aggressive and I would be curious what you are removing to add the gut shot.
1c-Same as 1b I would worry that with this many phyrexian spells and some in a color you have 0 access to you just fold to burn.

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Originally Posted by dave78pdx

2) Daze-ing yourself:
2a) Cast a spell, then tap an Island to float 1 mana, then return the Island to your hand to cast Daze, then paying the 1 floating mana to Daze so your first spell resolves.
2b) If you haven't played a land that turn, you play the land you pulled back for Daze, allowing you to cast another 1cc burn spell or cantrip.
2c) This makes Daze a house in the deck... It doesn't just counter stuff in the early game or pitch to FoW in the late game.

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Daze is great, don't forget about holding priority when casting PoP and dazing your own PoP to not kill yourself. Doesn't come up that often but when it does...

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Originally Posted by dave78pdx

3) Burn, baby, burn!
3a) Cut 2 Price of Progress for 2 Fireblast. Classic Burn deck finishing move, tap 2 for PoP then sac 2 for Fireblast. Before combat damage resolves to get the prowess triggers, too.
3b) Or, just a simple sac 2 mountains for Fireblast when tapped out before combat damage resolves.
3c) Again, Gut Shot, maybe?

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Remember how you were concerned about the 16 lands and went to 17, with fireblast in hand the mana base gets even more awkward. You have found the ideal case, but rarely will you be in that position.

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Originally Posted by dave78pdx

Thing in the Ice does nothing for Legacy UR Delver. It's just too slow. I could see it being used in other decks in Modern and Legacy (Storm? Control?)... But, not our deck.

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Not a U/R delver player - but I am wondering why this is slow?

Compare to YP: 4 spells gets you an evacuation and 7 power compared to 5 1/1's. What's more if the spells are cast turn 3, you can attack turn 3, instead of having to wait till turn4. Seems better than YP at least. Also can pitch to FOW
Compare to Monastery Swiftspear: 4 spells gets you an evacuation and 7 power compared to 5 power. Much worse top deck, but can pitch to FOW.
Compare to Stormchaser Mage: 4 spells gets you an evacuation and 7 power compared to 5 power. Much worse top deck.

It doesn't really seem slow - it's always 2 more power for the same # of spells compared to cards this deck runs already.

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Originally Posted by Cire

Not a U/R delver player - but I am wondering why this is slow?

Compare to YP: 4 spells gets you an evacuation and 7 power compared to 5 1/1's. What's more if the spells are cast turn 3, you can attack turn 3, instead of having to wait till turn4. Seems better than YP at least. Also can pitch to FOW
Compare to Monastery Swiftspear: 4 spells gets you an evacuation and 7 power compared to 5 power. Much worse top deck, but can pitch to FOW.
Compare to Stormchaser Mage: 4 spells gets you an evacuation and 7 power compared to 5 power. Much worse top deck.

It doesn't really seem slow - it's always 2 more power for the same # of spells compared to cards this deck runs already.

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It seems fine when you have it in your opening hand. But when you topdeck it t5, it literally does nothing.

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Originally Posted by Jaytron

It seems fine when you have it in your opening hand. But when you topdeck it t5, it literally does nothing.

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Forgive me if I'm wrong - but if U/R delver isn't about to win by turn 5, it has lost anyway? If you are drawing any of your creatures turn 5, at best you are hoping that you also have some spells left in hand to turn that creature into a Lava Bolt. The question with TITI is whether or not it's worth sacrificing the chance to "creature-bolt" turn 5, for an evacuation and 7 power attacking turn 3/4 compared to 5 power attacking turn 3/4 without evacuation.

Is it an auto-include no. I was just surprised it was dismissed so readily. But then again you guys know the deck better than I do :).

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Originally Posted by Cire

Not a U/R delver player - but I am wondering why this is slow?

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TITI costs more than Delver and takes more work to flip. You want a threat on the board immediately. UR Delver is so lean on mana that any 2-drop in the deck needs to be pure value. TITI getting Plowed before it flips would feel real bad, too. Modern UR Delver, maybe, and I plan to give it a try (after this Eldrazi silliness is over in April). But, not in Legacy UR Delver.

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Originally Posted by dave78pdx

TITI costs more than Delver and takes more work to flip. You want a threat on the board immediately. UR Delver is so lean on mana that any 2-drop in the deck needs to be pure value. TITI getting Plowed before it flips would feel real bad, too. Modern UR Delver, maybe, and I plan to give it a try (after this Eldrazi silliness is over in April). But, not in Legacy UR Delver.

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I'm only looking at expected value, assuming you 1) delver will be flipped asap and 2) you cast 2 spells a turn if you have at least 1 mana open after casting any of the creatures.

	Delver	TITI	Stormchaser	Monastery
Total Damage by turn 1	0	0	0	1
Total Damage by turn 2	3	0	1	4
Total Damage by turn 3	6	0	4	7
Total Damage by turn 4	9	7 (plus evacuation)	7	10
Total Damage by turn 5	12	14	10	13

Again, doesn't seem that bad.

You're forgetting Prowess triggers in your math. TITI requires an instant or sorcery to remove a counter. Prowess triggers with any non-creature spell (SB cards like Blood Moon, Sulfuric Vortex, Tormod's Crypt, Pithing Needle, Dack Fayden).

I was just going off the latest lists I saw on this thread which did not include any spells that would trigger prowess but not TITI (but-yes I guess post SB TITI becomes worse)

You can't only compare situations from opening hand. At least all the other creatures are doing damage while you work towards 4 spells. TITI gets you literally 0 damage until 4 and then you can't capitalize at all on your opponent not having a removal spell in the meantime.

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Originally Posted by rlesko

You can't only compare situations from opening hand. At least all the other creatures are doing damage while you work towards 4 spells. TITI gets you literally 0 damage until 4 and then you can't capitalize at all on your opponent not having a removal spell in the meantime.

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It's possible the deck this fits in plays a completely different game plan, more like rug delver without the green. Focus on stifle, wasteland, permission and having a huge blocker until it flips and you secure the game, with a burning focus.

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Originally Posted by rlesko

You can't only compare situations from opening hand. At least all the other creatures are doing damage while you work towards 4 spells. TITI gets you literally 0 damage until 4 and then you can't capitalize at all on your opponent not having a removal spell in the meantime.

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Basically this.

0 damage for X turns in a tempo deck just seems like a bad idea.

When the game goes into topdeck mode, I would absolutely hate to draw TITI. In ANY Delver variant.

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Originally Posted by Cire

I'm only looking at expected value, assuming you 1) delver will be flipped asap and 2) you cast 2 spells a turn if you have at least 1 mana open after casting any of the creatures.

	Delver	TITI	Stormchaser	Monastery
Total Damage by turn 1	0	0	0	1
Total Damage by turn 2	3	0	1	4
Total Damage by turn 3	6	0	4	7
Total Damage by turn 4	9	7 (plus evacuation)	7	10
Total Damage by turn 5	12	14	10	13

Again, doesn't seem that bad.

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Things you don't take into account or are not reflected by just numbers: Lifetime of creatures, Setup & Evasion

It's pretty bad against non-interactive combo decks as you will probably flip only about T5, and until there you will be either dead or have won the game.

On the other hand, it flips when you cast your 4th spell. Which means that you can bounce problematic creatures (emrakul, griselbrand, marit lage, etc), and even a full D&T/Elves board. You can have delver/guide attacking and hold spells to use the bounce effect rather than use it for killing.

When I started making this text it sounded pretty bad, but we're not considering the bouncing effect. It sounds good, and better than stormchaser mage (which TBH sounds kinda bad for me in this deck, at least worse than the other options).