[Deck] 12 Post

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Originally Posted by Barook

This is a first, rough draw:

3 Snow-Covered Forest
1 Thespian's Stage
1 Dark Depths
1 Wooded Foothills
4 Vesuva
1 Cavern of Souls
2 Windswept Heath
4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
1 Karakas
1 Eye of Ugin
1 Dark Depths
1 Glacial Chasm
2 Dryad Arbor

1 Oracle of Mul Daya
4 Primeval Titan
1 Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
1 Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn

4 Expedition Map
4 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Oblivion Stone
4 Crop Rotation
3 Moment's Peace
2 Into the North
4 Green Sun's Zenith
1 All Is Dust
3 Pithing Needle

Any input how to tune this list better to maximize the Miracles match-up?

- How good is Needle in this match-up? It can block SDT (which would also disable our SDT) and Jace. Should they be Krosan Grips instead? Mind you, this is an Anti-Miracle-only build.

- All is Dust and Oblivion Ring are quite pricey ticket-wise. How good is each one in the Miracle match-up?

- How many Moment's Peace should I run in the mainboard against Miracles? I guess Glacial Chasm should be kept as well to deal with early Angels.

- Is Oracle worth it in this match-up or should I remove it for something else?

Edit: I guess Boseiju, Who Shelters All isn't too shabby in the Miracles match-up, either.

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If you really want to build this to beat Miracles only, I would switch SDT for Sylvan Library so you can make full use of Pithing Needle. Furthermore, you can cut All is Dust and O-Stone, Into the North (you don´t need ramp against Miracles) and Moment´s Peace. I would suggest:

-4 SDT
-2 Into the North
-3 Moment´s Peace
-1 All is Dust
-1 O-Stone

+4 Sylvan Library
+1 Pithing Needle
+2 Gaddock Teeg
+3 Krosan Grip
+1 Cavern of Souls

Switch one or more Forest for Savannah(s) to support hardcasting Gaddock Teeg.

Edit: Depths/ Stage also isn´t very good against Miracles, so maybe you wanna go even further and do -2 Stage+Depths +2 Gaddock Teeg. :tongue::cool:

Adding Teeg seems like a good call since it eats up their StPs for Primetime. Shutting down your own GSZ is bearable.

How many Cavern of Souls should be run, though? From my experience with D&T, I'm not exactly a huge fan of it in non-tribal decks, simply because you can get manascrewed more easily. Adding Teeg just makes the issue worse.

I don't know about completely cutting the SDT. It's colorless, can sort cards on demand and can be shuffled away in multiples while Sylvan Library in multiples is bad. What about a 2/2 split and something else instead (e.g. a 4th Grip)? Or maybe a 3/2 split?

As for the DD combo, you're most likely right. Although I would prefer to add a third Teeg/1 Boseiju. Too many copies doesn't seem too great without Brainstorm.

Glacial Chasm as tutor target and 1 Oracle of Mul Daya are fine since you don't complain about them?

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Originally Posted by Barook

Adding Teeg seems like a good call since it eats up their StPs for Primetime. Shutting down your own GSZ is bearable.

How many Cavern of Souls should be run, though? From my experience with D&T, I'm not exactly a huge fan of it in non-tribal decks, simply because you can get manascrewed more easily. Adding Teeg just makes the issue worse.

I don't know about completely cutting the SDT. It's colorless, can sort cards on demand and can be shuffled away in multiples while Sylvan Library in multiples is bad. What about a 2/2 split and something else instead (e.g. a 4th Grip)? Or maybe a 3/2 split?

As for the DD combo, you're most likely right. Although I would prefer to add a third Teeg/1 Boseiju. Too many copies doesn't seem too great without Brainstorm.

Glacial Chasm as tutor target and 1 Oracle of Mul Daya are fine since you don't complain about them?

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I wouldn´t run more than 2 Cavern. You have plenty of ways to find 1 if necessary. Of course SDT is better in this deck than Sylvan, but for the matter to beat Miracles only, you really want to be able to put Needle on Top without any regrets. Library is a great card against Miracles and drawing multiples isn´t a bad thing, since it either means you can bait counters with them or if you get to resolve one, you get to draw a bunch of additional cards, in which case one or two (very unlikely) additional copies in your hand don´t really matter.

Glacial Chasm and Oracle are fine. Chasm gives you an out to early Entreats if needed. And Oracle is another source of card advantage which is always a good thing vs Miracles.

That's the list I put together now and see how it goes:

1 Oracle of Mul Daya
2 Dryad Arbor
1 Kozilek, Butcher of Truth
1 Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
4 Expedition Map
2 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Crop Rotation
4 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Snow-Covered Forest
1 Wooded Foothills
4 Vesuva
1 Cavern of Souls
2 Windswept Heath
4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
1 Karakas
1 Eye of Ugin
3 Pithing Needle
4 Primeval Titan
3 Gaddock Teeg
3 Savannah
3 Sylvan Library
3 Krosan Grip
1 Boseiju, Who Shelters All
1 Glacial Chasm

4 Leyline of Sanctity
1 Krosan Grip
4 Moment's Peace
2 Rest in Peace
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Bojuka Bog
2 Ratchet Bomb


Any tips on how to play the Miracle match-up?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Barook

That's the list I put together now and see how it goes:

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Any tips on how to play the Miracle match-up?

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Crop rotation a huge liability in the matchup. Personally I board them out. Also about a page back this disscussion was had. You can check there.

Played my first Miracle match today. Won 2-0 despite playing really abyssal with no experience of the deck.

Some observations I've made:

- 3 Gaddock Teegs is too many. 2 or maybe even one is enough.
- Crop Rotation is way too dead for my taste against Countertop. At the very least, I would reduce the numbers.
- 2 Caverns seems like a good idea.
- Glacial Chasm stays. Saved my ass in G1 when he went for 3 early Angels.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Barook

Played my first Miracle match today. Won 2-0 despite playing really abyssal with no experience of the deck.

Some observations I've made:

- 3 Gaddock Teegs is too many. 2 or maybe even one is enough.
- Crop Rotation is way too dead for my taste against Countertop. At the very least, I would reduce the numbers.
- 2 Caverns seems like a good idea.
- Glacial Chasm stays. Saved my ass in G1 when he went for 3 early Angels.

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Why are you hating on Crop Rotation and not also on Expedition Map?

I get that Expedition Map isn't card disadvantage but it costs tempo where Rotation wins tempo.

Teeg is not there to fight Miracles, so you should try playing other matchups with him.

To beat Miracles, i would cut Moment's Peace for sure, Kozilek probably. Miracles is not such an aggro deck you need to have the full fog set, honestly i wouldn't play none against them. And Kozilek is never going to connect and it deals no real harm once cast. If a miracle player has a Karakas in hand you'll be pretty disappointed to have it instead of something else (yes, drawing cards is fun, but once under a Counterbalance lock most of them are going to be dead cards).
Also, i don't understand why you should cut your SDT. Do you think not playing it on your own just to try to name the opponent one with needle is such a big thing? As most 12-post players here can confirm, it's our best card-filter and i almost never sideboard it out. It's much more flexible than Sylvan Lybrary, it allows you to keep your best threats on the top of your deck almost ignoring vendilion clique's disruption effect, laughing of Jace +2 and if drawn in multiples it still has its usefulness.
Together with SDT, i would also increase Oracle of Mul-daya count, because it's totally bonkers with such artifact and it may attract StP while saving your future titans. Heck, it even upgrades your Brainstorms into Ancestral Recalls and 2 land drops!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Barook

Played my first Miracle match today. Won 2-0 despite playing really abyssal with no experience of the deck.

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You do realize that this matchup is absurdly lopsided and beating Miracles is rarely more complex than playing lands and then resolving any one of your Eldrazi or even a single Primeval Titan.

Got a question that isn't the most relevant in large tournaments. I'm running the UG build, mostly standard but has EE's as my choice of removal. Added it in by cutting 2 Maps. They seemed to hurt me more often than not (maybe this is where I'm going wrong, who knows). At my local meta there are lots of burn decks floating around. How do we normally deal with burn? I've tooled my deck to perform well against other decks across the board using Engineered Explosives, but of course its terrible against burn. Repeal is mediocre. Top doesn't interact, lands are nice but price. Crop rotation for glacial chasm is nice, but then I'm 100% on the show//tell or dead plan because I won't have extra time to play more lands. Any insight would be welcome. I'll post up my list later as I'll be going to a bigger tournament this Sunday and want as much insight as possible.

(on a side note: i beat miracles solidly by mulling into any hand with any action. Doesn't matter how late it is. Top counts. Also, EE on 0 turn 1 is amazing against the cheater build. They only have venser to remove it and Clique to pressure after that)

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Originally Posted by endqwerty

Got a question that isn't the most relevant in large tournaments. I'm running the UG build, mostly standard but has EE's as my choice of removal. Added it in by cutting 2 Maps. They seemed to hurt me more often than not (maybe this is where I'm going wrong, who knows). At my local meta there are lots of burn decks floating around. How do we normally deal with burn? I've tooled my deck to perform well against other decks across the board using Engineered Explosives, but of course its terrible against burn. Repeal is mediocre. Top doesn't interact, lands are nice but price. Crop rotation for glacial chasm is nice, but then I'm 100% on the show//tell or dead plan because I won't have extra time to play more lands. Any insight would be welcome. I'll post up my list later as I'll be going to a bigger tournament this Sunday and want as much insight as possible.

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Glimmerpost is your best friend against burn, and side in counters if you have them, namely for Price of Progress.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by endqwerty

Got a question that isn't the most relevant in large tournaments. I'm running the UG build, mostly standard but has EE's as my choice of removal. Added it in by cutting 2 Maps. They seemed to hurt me more often than not (maybe this is where I'm going wrong, who knows). At my local meta there are lots of burn decks floating around. How do we normally deal with burn? I've tooled my deck to perform well against other decks across the board using Engineered Explosives, but of course its terrible against burn. Repeal is mediocre. Top doesn't interact, lands are nice but price. Crop rotation for glacial chasm is nice, but then I'm 100% on the show//tell or dead plan because I won't have extra time to play more lands. Any insight would be welcome. I'll post up my list later as I'll be going to a bigger tournament this Sunday and want as much insight as possible.

(on a side note: i beat miracles solidly by mulling into any hand with any action. Doesn't matter how late it is. Top counts. Also, EE on 0 turn 1 is amazing against the cheater build. They only have venser to remove it and Clique to pressure after that)

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I've almost never lost a match to burn decks, although i have to admit i've never played against the most recent builds that run Vexing Shusher in sb. That thing scaries me a lot! For reference, this is the list a run a month ago, splitting 1st and 2nd pizes in a 55 men tournament

[MD]
4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
2 Vesuva
1 Island
1 Forest
4 Tropical Island
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Karakas
1 Eye of Ugin
1 Glacial Chasm
1 Cavern of Souls
4 Primeval Titan
1 Ulamog, the Infinite Gyre
1 Emrakul, the Aeons Torn
1 Trinket Mage
2 Oracle of Mul-Daya
4 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Engineered Explosives
4 Brainstorm
4 Crop Rotation
3 Expedition Map
1 Candelabra of Tawnos
2 Pithing Needle
4 Repeal
3 Show and Tell

[SB]
3 Swan Song
1 Chalice of the Void
2 All is Dust
2 Moment's Peace
4 Force of Will
3 Flusterstorm

I've recently cut Oracle from main list to make room for the 2 Moment's peace in sb, giving me 2 extra slots i'm still not sure how to employ. Anyway, as you can see i'm running E.E maindeck too, paired with a Trinket mage. If your build and sideboard is similar to mine, there shouldn't be great problems in beating burn.
Game 1 is obviously the toughest, because you have few ways to protect yourself. Keeping a green mana open and a Crop Rotation in hand to save you from Price of Progress is mandatory, but it's not the case to be afraid to develop your locus mana base in play. If you think about it, playing a glimmerpost with even a lonely other post in play means that you're gaining 2 additional lifes while Price would deal to you 2 more damage - unless they play more Prices against you, you have lost nothing!
I would be cautious about dropping too many tropical islands instead, unless i see i'm bottlenecked and need those additional manas to cast a titan for example. You should always fetch basic lands, of course
Post-sideboard, things get much easier. You bring in all the counterspells you can (i wouldn't side in all my Swan Songs honestly), while taking out irrelevant things such Pithing Needles, bojuka bogs, 1 x Repeal, explosives, 1 x Titan, 1 x SDT, Candelabra... DON'T side out Ulamog neither all your Repeals, you need them in case of sulfuric vortex/ensnaring bridge sticking in play (Repeals also raise the blue cards amount for Force of Will). If you feel your opponent is on the Shusher plan don't side them out at all.
Counterspells are great, but Chalice of the void is THE card, set it at 2 counters to make them weep. The only real card you have to fear is Price of Progress, so that's it. It also protects itself from Smash to Smithereens, a card that they will almost surely bring in to deal with your artifacts. Having Trinket Mage and an absurd library manipulation should allow you to find one of them. Hope this helps

Could someone clarify for me what a cheater build is in regard to Miracles?

Also, does anyone have some good advice/strategy against BUG shell decks - always come short in that matchup. I'm running traditional UG build.

/PollePotDK

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Originally Posted by PollePotDK

Could someone clarify for me what a cheater build is in regard to Miracles?

Also, does anyone have some good advice/strategy against BUG shell decks - always come short in that matchup. I'm running traditional UG build.

/PollePotDK

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A "cheater" Miracles build is a list which maindecks blue hate like Pyroblast or REB.

Regarding BUG matchups, it's one of the toughest "fair-game deck" you may face together with its savage brother Jund (which is even worse in my opionion). There are a lot of BUG versions, so strategies of course change a lot while facing BUG delver or Shardless BUG or Walkers BUG. The versions relying on Hymn to Tourach are harder to beat than the ones who opt for Thoughtseize, because their brutal discard effect at the very beginning of the game may be really backbreaking. If your meta is filled with these contenders i would suggest you to run Oracle of Mul-daya maindeck, since it's amazing at filtering cards while accelerating mana. Paired with SDT and Brainstorm is simply incredible and BUG may have troubles dealing with it easily (Abrupt Decay proof). Other good cards are Moment's Peace, which maintains its usefullness even if discarded and big sweeper spells that if resolved totally nuke the board with the exception of our precious lands.

@Davek

Your opinions have been immensely helpful in my testing. I feel like I have a much better grasp of what I was doing wrong now. Before I was basically 100% on the get show//tell Primetime +glimmerposts or die. Of course, this loses to sulferic vortex and price easily. I will definitely strongly consider adding in one Chalice into the board.

My list right now is:

4 Cloudpost
4 Glimmerpost
3 Vesuva
4 Misty Rainforest
2 Tropical Island
2 Island
1 Forest
1 Cavern of Souls
1 Bajukabog
1 Glacial Chasm
1 Eye of Ugin
1 Karakas

1 Emrakul
1 Ulamog
1 Kozelik
4 Primeval Titan
4 Show and Tell
4 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Pithing Needle
2 Expedition Map
3 Engineered Explosives
4 Repeal
4 Brainstorm
4 Crop Rotation

Sideboard:
4 Flusterstorm
4 Leyline of Sanctity
1 Crucible of Worlds
2 Karn Liberated
2 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Venser, Shaper Savant
1 ? idk what this was maybe the swan song. Probably could be the chalice here

I can see cutting one Show and Tell for a trinket mage easily. This opens up the opportunity to take out a Pithing needle and bring back in the Candelabra that I've taken out since its so inconsistent. Are there any suggestions to tune up the deck some possibly? For example, are there any spots where I'm clearly weak to a top tier matchup? I've had trouble with delver decks (RUG mainly) but I felt that it was likely to be the way I played the games than any issue with the deck itself. I'm often put into the situation (against almost every deck that applies any sort of pressure, which is basically any decks that play creatures) where I have to Crop Rotation for Glacial Chasm, but then don't have enough lands to cast anything so I'm suck hoping to Show and Tell in a Primeval Titan. I feel like the clock provided by a flipped delver is often just too much. Especially if the FoW a repeal or follow it up with a Tarmogoyf.

Alex Khanin is destroying Miracles G1 on camera right now at SCG Dallas. It can be assumed he will move to 6-1 in this round.

Nice G1! Let's see how he performs after SB... Good luck! ☺

I got 9th on breakers by .18 :(
Also - my list:
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deck...p?DeckID=70887


Another 21 pointer (Shane Remelt) made it in 8th with tie breakers at 63.9~ while mine were 63.72~.

I beat:
Miracles - twice (rd1 and on camera rd7)
Shardless Bug - once (rd2)
Jund - once (rd3) (in very close 3 games, I top decked well to win the two games I did)
Aluren - once (rd4) (in two not very close games)
ANT - once (rd5), he scooped g3 to me because I had revoker (naming LED) and oracle beating him down but we went to time and he had no more win cons in the deck and no cards in hand (Thanks for being a good guy!)
Sneak and Show - once (rd9)

Lost:
UWR delver - once (rd6)
G1. Mulligan, 2x FoW for both my titans. Delver flip + Batterskull, Jitte, SFM.
G2 I mulligan he had 2 flipped delvers, wasteland and countered 2 SDTs, never in it.
Good matchup - bad luck.

BUG Delver - once (rd8) in the fake feature match, 3 games.
I had a ton of outs with 5 lands in play one being Cavern and 2 titans in hand, didn't draw 6th land, lost. He was the guy that beat Joe Lossett in t8.

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Originally Posted by sauce

I got 9th on breakers by .18 :(
Also - my list:
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deck...p?DeckID=70887


Another 21 pointer (Shane Remelt) made it in 8th with tie breakers at 63.9~ while mine were 63.72~.

I beat:
Miracles - twice (rd1 and on camera rd7)
Shardless Bug - once (rd2)
Jund - once (rd3) (in very close 3 games, I top decked well to win the two games I did)
Aluren - once (rd4) (in two not very close games)
ANT - once (rd5), he scooped g3 to me because I had revoker (naming LED) and oracle beating him down but we went to time and he had no more win cons in the deck and no cards in hand (Thanks for being a good guy!)
Sneak and Show - once (rd9)

Lost:
UWR delver - once (rd6)
G1. Mulligan, 2x FoW for both my titans. Delver flip + Batterskull, Jitte, SFM.
G2 I mulligan he had 2 flipped delvers, wasteland and countered 2 SDTs, never in it.
Good matchup - bad luck.

BUG Delver - once (rd8) in the fake feature match, 3 games.
I had a ton of outs with 5 lands in play one being Cavern and 2 titans in hand, didn't draw 6th land, lost. He was the guy that beat Joe Lossett in t8.

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Sad to hear about missing top 8 like that. It was however a joy to see you play, and a very beautiful deck! Congratulations to a great performance nonetheless!

Quote:

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Originally Posted by sauce

I got 9th on breakers by .18 :(
Also - my list:
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deck...p?DeckID=70887


Another 21 pointer (Shane Remelt) made it in 8th with tie breakers at 63.9~ while mine were 63.72~.

I beat:
Miracles - twice (rd1 and on camera rd7)
Shardless Bug - once (rd2)
Jund - once (rd3) (in very close 3 games, I top decked well to win the two games I did)
Aluren - once (rd4) (in two not very close games)
ANT - once (rd5), he scooped g3 to me because I had revoker (naming LED) and oracle beating him down but we went to time and he had no more win cons in the deck and no cards in hand (Thanks for being a good guy!)
Sneak and Show - once (rd9)

Lost:
UWR delver - once (rd6)
G1. Mulligan, 2x FoW for both my titans. Delver flip + Batterskull, Jitte, SFM.
G2 I mulligan he had 2 flipped delvers, wasteland and countered 2 SDTs, never in it.
Good matchup - bad luck.

BUG Delver - once (rd8) in the fake feature match, 3 games.
I had a ton of outs with 5 lands in play one being Cavern and 2 titans in hand, didn't draw 6th land, lost. He was the guy that beat Joe Lossett in t8.

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Congrats! Looking forward to watch the coverage tonight when I have time. :smile: