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When a deck relies on attacking hand size as much as pox does, brainstorm conveniently lets them stack on top of their deck. I don't fear brainstorm as much as I fear top decked good stuff. I stand by my premise that loam pox is inherently more powerful due to abrupt decay, library, and one mana demonic tutors at instant speed (rotation) for a 20/20 flyer.Quote:
Originally Posted by OmniStrata
That really applies to combo. A delver deck is not that scary resolving a BS.
When you've got abrupt decay, library, and crop rotation, why bother hybridizing with Pox and diluting the objective (combo kill)? Why not just run BUG which has proven itself?
Loam Pox, at least when I ran it years ago, felt like a weaker BUG that didn't work with the stack, ran out of cards very quickly, and had more essential spells you couldn't Smallpox away. The current Loam Pox that's being discussed is ultimately, a combo deck that tries to murder the opponent in 2 turns. Not necessarily, after the first turn, but once the pieces are setup, which is easier to do with a Brainstorm included, it's drop the DD, Stage, and end of their turn, summon Marit Lage's bad assery. Problem is you can't disrupt your opponent with Smallpoxes at the same time you're doing this because you'll lose your land or you'll lose your 20/20 insta-win.
That and Jace, wow that damn PW. I think Jace is perhaps the worst reason to run a Pox deck. I have almost never won a game once that monster hits the field and I got no Needles for his skull. On the other hand, I'll win if my Sinkholes, Poxes, and Wastelands do their job since Jace is never mana ramped into play.
My worst nemesis isn't my foe sitting across from me, but more so my bad luck lol. I used to run SDT but without deck shuffling fetch lands, I found it better to just build the deck with smarter card choices... (aka, I won more consistently without SDT)
Maybe a Rock/Pox hybrid? Be the control, not the combo. :cool:
I respectfully disagree about loam pox not being optimal to hybridization with depths. Pox has so much disruption for fair decks while also having a way to race burn (its worst matchup.) Don't get me wrong, mb pox is a great deck. However, considering that the depths combo goes in and out of the dtb section (in a loam/lands shell) it seems reasonable to borrow tech and be that much if a stronger deck.
EDIT: To which bug deck are you referring? To my knowledge only Lands and occasionally loam pox utilize stage/depths.
Assuming you are talking about my list (post #2073) you could not be more wrong, it is more of a control pure control deck than even Miracles. By your classification of a deck as combo for containing 1 or more card that can combo finish a Miracles list running 2 Entreat the Angels is 2x the combo deck as the Loam Pox lists posted(Mr. Safety also ran 1 Dark Depths post #2072) The ability to Combo kill out of a control deck is just good deck building.Quote:
Originally Posted by OmniStrata
Quote:
Originally Posted by OmniStrata
What you call bad luck, I call bad deck building. If you play a deck like mono black Pox and expect to perform well late game without some sort of library manipulation good luck against a deck with Dig Through Time or Brainstorm. And saying you didn't do well with Sensei's Top when you didn't run fetch lands is again bad deck building, why would you not run shuffle effects with Sensei's Top, take your own advice and make smarter card choices. Pox plan is to answer all their threats and get into a top deck game as soon as possible, mono black gets to that point then has to hope to top deck better than their opponent. I would never considering running a mono black pox list without sensei's top and fetch lands. G/B playing things like Sensei's Divining Top, Sylvan Library, Crop Rotation, Life from the Loam to allow us maintain control into the late game.
If it sounds like I am attacking mono black players I am sorry, I just get pissed off when uninformed people make rash judgments about things they know nothing about (Applies to everything in life not just Magic decks). I love a Smallpox deck in any incarnation and will support anyone who plays it or any other deck in Legacy. I also love Legacy and will support anyone looking to play the format. I will also gladly give my honest opinion of any deck choices for pox or any other deck. I am fully supportive of playing suboptimal cards for any reason as long as you are honest with yourself about why you are playing them (budget, pet card, fun of, are all valid reasons to me but don't say it is better when it is not, cards like Sensei's Divining Top and Cabal Therapy are 2 examples of cards that are difficult to play. not feeling comfortable enough to play them is one thing saying they are bad cards would be wrong)
http://www.starcitygames.com/article...te-Legacy.html
P.S. I have never lost to Mono Black Pox ever, including late rounds of big events like Legacy Champs.
Preach brother. Loam is a tier 1 card and green offers library manipulation and card advantage. Loam pox offers an excellent late game AND a way to close otherwise unwinnable matchups with a fast marit lage. I have only done a small amount of testing recently but I played hexmage depths back before stage was available. It was a different legacy then, but now it seems to be a better plan.Quote:
Originally Posted by jredelstein
I'm not even worried about swords to plowshares on my token...an extra 20 life will give the deck plenty of time to grind out a win. The only hate that really cripples depths is graveyard hate...and we can combat that well enough by sideboarding correctly to minimize reliance on the yard.
is it just me or is th 20/20 not your primary win condition? Yes it's nice and all having the ability to make a 20/20 out of nowhere but the main win con is mishra's factory and nether spirit.
A win condition further fueled by having thepsian's stage (I copied far more mishra's factory with it than I copied Dark Depths). In my opinion the Combo isn't there so you can win out of nowhere, it's to make sure your opponent has to play around it at all times when you leave mana up, often for abrupt decay or crop rotating the land that they try to wasteland.
Also since the main plan (my plan at least) is to empty their hand and then attack all I need to setup is my loam which I can tutor for.
I eschew factory for more stable mana, and in exchange I play a set of vampire hexmage as my slow attackers. Not having factory also allows me to play a volrath's stronghold and an eternal witness. I should probably update my list ln here:Quote:
Originally Posted by Toxboy
4x hexmage
1x ewitness
4x smallpox
3x liliana
3x abrupt decay
1x maelstrom pulse
2x sylvan library
1x darkblast
3x loam
4x crop rotation
3x thoughtseize
3x duress
3x hymn to tourach
4x verdant catacombs
1x bayou
1x overgrown tomb
1x woodland cemetery
4x urborg
4x wasteland
1x depths
1x stage
1x bojuka bog
1x cabal pit
1x volraths stronghold
2x swamp
1x forest
3x barren moor
61 cards
Sideboard
1x glacial chasm
2x pithing needle
3x deed
2x golgari charm
2x surgical extraction
2x choke
3x shriekmaw
at ease men, why don't we all puff a purple peace pipe and make merry! he he he..
i would love to play more legacy but the next big legacy event here is not until october 25.. :frown:
I am sorry if it "sounds like I am attacking mono-black players", I am not sorry if it sound like I am angry with Posts attacking the deck I have been playing for years. New players and old use these forums as a resource and you are doing a disservice by making uninformed judgments about a deck you can't even properly recognize as a control deck. OmniStrata, you in particular have respect as an innovator on this forum when it comes to Mono-Black Pox because of that you have a responsibility to anyone else using this thread to think about your posts before you post them.Quote:
Originally Posted by OmniStrata
You start by saying Loam Poxers should just play BUG and that Loam Pox is a "weaker BUG". You then make the assertion that the Loam Pox lists "is ultimately, a combo deck" and that we should not play Smallpox in a combo deck. So no I can not quote to saying the exact phrase "never run Loam." You do say we should not run Loam Pox play BUG instead and don't run Smallpox in your combo deckQuote:
Originally Posted by OmniStrata
It sounds to me that your experience with Loam Pox is outdated. Based on your classification of Loam Pox as a combo deck I can pretty confidently say that you don't know how to play Loam Pox, because if you play a control deck like a combo deck you will lose. I am sure you are a great Mono-Black Pox player.Quote:
Originally Posted by OmniStrata
Quote:
Originally Posted by OmniStrata
I hope you will continue to do the same, just please be honest with yourself and others about your experience when it comes to different variations of Pox in the future. You are a valuable part of the Pox and Legacy communities.Quote:
Originally Posted by jredelstein
In the Game of Magic, you either adapt or you die...
Noting that my meta no longer has fast aggro/tribal or token rush, I'll be removing 2 of my major cards. Whoever suggested Ophiomancer, I thank you. I'll be keeping a single Engineered Plague maindeck in case of TNN, or any other annoying 1/1s (bob). I'll be dropping Crucible of Worlds since Ophio is GY proof (getting Nether Spirit surgically extracted with M Factory stops Contamination dead). Also dropping Night of Souls' betrayal so the Snake Tokens can do their thing.
-1 Crucible
-1 NoSB
-1 Innocent Blood
+2 Ophiomancer
+1 Murderous Cut
The Cut will help keep the GY clear of Ophiomancers who will inevitably end up dying to whatever and jamming NS. I'm also considering Akroan Horse (lol) but if my enemy decides to Sacrifice to anything, I'll probably end up jamming my own sac spells... :frown:
I like that Ophiomancer triggers on both upkeeps so if you smallpox one away you'll still get one on their upkeep, and Akroan Horse seems awesome and hilarious.Quote:
Originally Posted by OmniStrata
I like the idea of having an non-creature token generator that will not get in the way of Nether Spirit. Bitterblossom or Breeding Pit could work but Bitterblossom life lose is probably a deal breaker and Breeding Pit making tokens at end of turn instead of upkeep is less convenient. Have you thought about Trading Post it will cost life but the other modes could be helpful in other scenarios. Life gain vs Burn would be nice and there could be some synergy with artifacts out of the sideboard like sacrificing pithing needle to draw a card then sac nether spirit to get back needle to name something new.
Problem with the Trading Post is that it can be Pithing Needled. The other cards you mentioned are triggers and therefore must be Stifled, which won't mean anything with Contamination off the field, but if it's on the field, they can't even cast Stifle anyway. :cool: Currently not afraid of Burn. Contamination shuts it off quite nicely, at 1 hp to spare no less... Assuming no Barbarian Ring. :eek:Quote:
Originally Posted by jredelstein
Ophiomancer is probably best since unlike the other cards mentioned, it will kill a Tarmogoyf using the little snakes. So the goyf either won't block the snakes, or won't attack. I always assume da Goyf is fighting me as it's my most troublesome 'biggie' threat. If she's resolved, enemy has no colorless creature removal, and not outnumbering me in threats, it's just a matter of Cursed Scrolling them to death. Or hiding behind my Ensnaring Bridge and doing the same. Pox is a sadist's deck.
Update: On the other hand, a Pithing Needle on the Post is one less Needle in Liliana's spine. If I move a card or 2, I could probably run Ophiomancer and the Trading Post. That post can also rescue an Abrupt Decayed Crucible which in turns keeps the Mishra's Contamination feed and Wastelock flowing.
i feel this is a difficult time for pox with prison strategies because of dig through time..we can bury them with our resource denial but they can easily undo it by casting even just a single DTT, and suddenly we are far behind..
www.youtube.com/watch?v=95rUPDl0488
copies of chains of mephistopheles and void effects(nether void, trinisphere, sphere of resistance) are a must in its 75 to neuter DTT or run big beaters to end the game quickly after disrupting..
Unfortunately Chains of Mephistopheles does nothing against Dig Through Time, that is why OmniStrata has adopted Contamination and G/B plays Dark Depths Mono black need a better lock and G/B looks to end the game faster once parity is reached.Quote:
Originally Posted by zenitramleirdag
I have played Nether Void when there was a lot of Omni-Show around, it is better than Trinisphere in every scenario other than when they naturally have Emrakul, the Aeons Torn, I do play 2 Bojuka Bog 1 main and 1 side, since Omni runs mostly basic islands I take out my Wastelands and bring in the second Bog to slow Dig down.
I find is still not that great once they are hellbent, I usually have a Liliana of the Veil so they rarely get to play Dig and then cast what they find.
Which is why dark depths is better positioned in a loam pox shell atm. Pox is still a solid against many strategies and now you can marit lage combo quick.Quote:
Originally Posted by zenitramleirdag
Nether Void and Trinisphere are certainly the superior lock vs. Omni-Show if they've got Omniscience on the table vs. me dropping a Contamination. My only real out is if they're hellbent after they drop Omniscience. I do wish I had an Underworld Dreams resolved as someone does an Enter the Infinite (and hope they're not paying attention). :laugh:
As far as DTT is concerned, if we nuked them down to 2 lands, I'm certain they're still stuck since well, they probably either Dig for lands (lol) or we have a Liliana out with a few Loyalty so they're discarding one of them. That and Leyline of the Void. The ultimate out vs. GY strategies. One DTT tells me immediately, sideboard in my GY hate asap. Those of you running Nether Void probably laugh at DTT. 5 mana dig? Sure, good luck with that.
Does Sphere of Resistance allow Delvers to just Delve 1 more since it directly adds to mana costs?
Yeah, costs are calculated, all modifiers applied, including Sphere or Resistance and Thalia, then costs are paid, either by mana or Delve.Quote:
Originally Posted by OmniStrata
Part of the problem building my deck is to know what to exclude. I figure not every pox card work in every variant of the deck. Smallpox and pox both make it hard to play other expensive cards, like liliana.
Pox is fine but should i run without lili or smallpox? Which is better for AggroPox?
Tom Ross decided to sleeve up Pox for an IQ and manged to finish 5th with it. This is the list he played.
http://sales.starcitygames.com//deck...p?DeckID=91949