What does your current list look like?Quote:
Originally Posted by dontbiteitholmes
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What does your current list look like?Quote:
Originally Posted by dontbiteitholmes
// Lands
2 [US] Serra's Sanctum
5 [M10] Forest (1)
2 [SHM] Plains (2)
1 [LG] Karakas
2 [A] Savannah
1 [B] Taiga
4 [ON] Windswept Heath
3 [ON] Wooded Foothills
// Creatures
4 [US] Argothian Enchantress
// Spells
1 [SHM] Runed Halo
4 [TE] Mirri's Guile
1 [LG] Moat
2 [MR] Chrome Mox
3 [US] Carpet of Flowers
1 [CFX] Sigil of the Empty Throne
4 [ON] Enchantress's Presence
2 [JU] Solitary Confinement
1 [ON] Words of War
4 [IN] Sterling Grove
1 [TE] Choke
3 [UD] Replenish
4 [DIS] Utopia Sprawl
2 [ALA] Oblivion Ring
1 [VI] Elephant Grass
2 [6E] Enlightened Tutor
It's still a work in progress, Probably should throw the E. Tutors back into the SB and replace them with more Grasses since Tutors are really bad vs. counterspells.
How well does enchantress do without Moat and add in Humility? I really like the deck on MWS but Moat puts it out of my price range if I were to build the deck.
Without Moat it is still playable, but I would look at an extra Confinement instead of Humility. Humility is something I'm still not keen on because it shuts off your Argothians.
Every 5th page on here is someone asking about Enchantress without Moat for the record.
Went back 3-4 pages and didn't see anything, sorry =pQuote:
Originally Posted by dontbiteitholmes
Really it's our fault, this thread could use a reboot and and an epic first post to summarize the same 5 things we keep talking about.Quote:
Originally Posted by Neuad
1: Sigil vs. Sacred Mesa vs. Words of War, 1 win condition vs. 2 vs. 3.
2: Lotus Petal vs. ESG vs. Chrome Mox
3: Humility good/bad.
4: City of Solitude vs. Choke vs. Carpet of Flowers vs. Vexing Shusher
5: Will Enchantress work w/o Moat.
Bonus: How bad Land Tax would be if it were unbanned.
It will be great as well if we include a 'poor man' land version that does not use expensive dual lands and fetch lands, which I think it is doable as Enchantress works great with basic lands to begin with. Let me start with the version I am using:Quote:
Originally Posted by dontbiteitholmes
20 Lands
10 Forest
3 Plains
1 Mountain
2 Serra's Sanctum
4 Naya Panorama
With 4 Utopia Sprawls and Naya Panorama, I don't really have problems getting red or the mana I needed. Plus it is resilient against Wastelands.
Ill try to answer some of these questions with my experience with the deck. and post my list for reference
1: Sigil vs. Sacred Mesa vs. Words of War, 1 win condition vs. 2 vs. 3.
You forget Luminarch Ascension, which is actually a great wincondtion. i won a few games going t2 luminarch, t3 confinement
and win on angel tokens.
2: Lotus Petal vs. ESG vs. Chrome Mox
The only time we really need a extra 1 mana source is turn 1 (against combo) after turn 1 it gradually gets worse to draw any of these cards. Which means you need to play around 3 of them to get them in turn 1. Chrome mox is the worst card here in my opinion, since it provides card disadvantage, and drawing it after turn 1 is a horrible topdeck. between ESG and petal i think ESG is the best becouse it basicly does the same thing, but its also awesome against daze. Still i tested it, and i didnt found it good enough.
3: Humility good/bad.
Everytime i had the card in my deck (it was in side) i usually tutored for some other card instead, becouse it was better in that situation. It has it uses though against pridemage for example, so im still testing it as a 1 off in my side.
4: City of Solitude vs. Choke vs. Carpet of Flowers vs. Vexing Shusher
City and choke > carpet of flowers & shusher i think, susher is not a enchantment, and is open to creature removal. and extra mana is nice, but i rather just screw his game plan.
5: Will Enchantress work w/o Moat.
I personally tutor for moat alot, its a complete defence in 1 card against alot of decks. Humility makes them 1/1, but those can still kill you. So i would almost dare to say it will not work without moat. There are too many times where your in a dire situation and need to get out of that, and moat does exactly that in alot of cases. (other enchantments are just not that effective or require other cards to work like confinement)
Bonus: How bad Land Tax would be if it were unbanned.
I think it wont do alot in enchantress (although i do not play exploration)
Presenting my list which i call EnChantress
//Mana base: 22
9 Forest
4 Windswept Heath
1 Savannah
2 Serra's Sanctum
5 Plain
1 Karakas
//Draw: 8
4 Argothian Enchantress
4 Enchantress's Prescence
//Mana acceleration: 6
4 Utopia Sprawl
2 Wild Growth
//Protection: 11
3 Elephant Grass
3 Solitary Confinement
2 Runed Halo
2 Oblivion Ring
1 Moat
//Kill: 3
1 Sigil of the Empty Throne
2 Luminarch Ascension
//Search 5
4 Sterling Grove
1 Enlightent tutor
//Utility: 5
3 Orim's Chant
2 Replenish
It was originally build to fight combo since that deck is very present in my meta.
Since ANT is banned now (mystical tutor) im curious about how combo will develop to see if this list is still viable.
About this list
lands: 22
i feel this is the right number, and the 1 savannah is enough too (@mattguy). I tried 20 lands and more mana enchantments, but i got mana screwed too often. I feel very comfortable with 22. 1 savannah is also enough, you have 4 fetches to get it if you really really need colourfixing, which you dont need most of the time. And since enchanting non basic lands can cost you the game if your facing wastelands, you dont want to play alot of those. Im testing 1 karakas vs iona and teeg.
Mana acceleration: 6
I feel this is the right number, i usually have one in the early game, and you usually only need 1.
//Protection: 11
2 oblivion ring is in my experience the best number of rings. more is too much, and with less you can find yourself in situations wishing you had 1 more.
Kill: 3
Still testing this, want to replace 1 ascension with words of war to try this out. Asension is a great card (especially vs control) which won me many games. Ascention + confinement, moat, chant is great.
Utility: 5
3 chant, yes :P chants in enchantress. now that combo is redeveloping, i have to wait to see if these are still viable, becouse combo was the main reason for 3 chant main.
Why play chants
vs control
It gives your opponent 3 extra MUST counters, thus you are more able to cast that critical spell (usually replenish, but also if you must resolve a enchantress effect, its good to chant first)
vs Combo
obvious..
vs Aggro
This is the worst matchup for chant, luckaly the rest of your deck is made to beat aggro... and timewalking with chant (especially t1-t2) can really slow aggro down, remember its also a fog effect.
So far, chant has not made my good matchups worse (aggro), and made my worse matchups better (combo, heavy U control). And does something against any deck and gives you a chance against combo in game 1, which is better than the usual 3 utility enchantments that you play in this slot.
Cards i dont play:
Mirri's guile
I rather just draw the 3 cards with my enchantress effects..
Exploration
in my opinion enchant lands are always better than explorations, since it doesnt matter if its a enchant land in the early game, or a exploration (becouse if you start with 4 lands + exploration, which would make exploration better, you should have mulled that hand in the first place in most cases) and when your drawing tons of cards it lets you play extra lands.. but when i draw tons of cards, im usually winning anyway.. so i dont need exploration.
Still busy building my perfect sideboard, so ill update that later.
I don't think you *need* duals, but I think you should definitely have 4x Windswept Heath. If you are running Mirri's Guile I see the value of running even more fetch lands, otherwise those should be enough to get you W or G when you need it.
However, if this thread is to be taken seriously, we shouldn't even bother discussing budgets lists. Save that for the Casual forum. You don't see people in the Zoo thread worrying about budget in terms of construction...
Also, I'd be willing to help write a primer if this thread were to start over. I don't claim to be the best player of the archetype, but I have spent a lot of time playing the deck and reading through this thread. Here's a little gist of what I would write about the deck...
Deck Philosophy:
Enchantress is a linear hybrid combo/control deck. Linear because the engine requires the majority of the deck to be enchantments, combo because of the synergy inherent between the card choices, and control because the deck completely neutralizes the opponent's threats when it is working correctly. Enchantress can be a good choice in the current meta-game, because it capitalizes on the aggro matchup by making creature combat and even direct damage spells essentially pointless. Games can be "won" by turn 4 or 5 with the right hand, although the actual swing for 20 might not occur until several turns later -- assuming your opponent hasn't already scooped after seeing your near-impenetrable wall of defense.
The Core of the Deck:
These are the cards that are considered auto-includes. If you're not running them, you probably aren't doing it right.
18-22 Lands in some combination of the following
X Forest
X Plains
0-2 Savannah
0-1 Taiga
4 Windswept Heath
X Green Fetchlands
0-2 Horizon Canopy
2 Serra's Sanctum
4 Argothian Enchantress
4 Enchantress's Presence
4 Sterling Grove
4 Wild Growth
4 Utopia Sprawl
4 Elephant Grass
2-3 Solitary Confinement
2-3 Replenish
1 Moat
1-2 Enlightened Tutor
2-3 Win Conditions (typically Sigil of the Empty Throne or Words of War)
This leaves you with a little less than 10 open slots that can be tailor-matched for your local meta-game. Some of these other choices might be better suited for the SB, but the nice thing about Enchantress is that you can pretty easily tutor up any silver bullet you want in game 1.
Other Choices:
Runed Halo Sometimes with more in the sideboard. The caveat is that these require WW which isn't always abundant early-game.
Choke Should definitely be in the sideboard, but with the prevalence of blue in Legacy, makes a strong main deck choice as well.
Ground Seal Cantrips, but also helps hose certain graveyard strategies. With potential rise of Lands builds using Life from the Loam, this should be strongly considered main deck.
Oblivion Ring All-purpose removal. 1 in the main is often enough, but more can be useful in an unknown meta.
Karmic Justice Insurance against sweepers. Don't forget to trigger it on Wastelands.
Lignify Mainly for Iona.
Karakas See above.
Carpet of Flowers Just awesome vs. blue decks.
City of Solitude More blue hate.
Wheel of Sun and Moon Elephant Grass should be enough to take care of Dredge, but this also helps vs. other grave-based decks.
Sacred Ground You run a lot of basics, but some matchups would benefit from this.
Blood Moon Its effect is generally one-sided and can really screw up a lot of other decks. Definitely worth consideration.
Vexing Shusher Forces your cards through counters. Can be used in conjunction with Worldly Tutor to fetch this as well as your Argothians.
Seal of Primordium Disenchant that serves your engine.
Aura of Silence See above. Better effect but more restrictive cost.
Suppression Field Can shut down certain strategies.
Ghostly Prison Permanent elephant grass.
Rule of Law Seems like a bad choice to me. Hurts you almost as badly as it does combo.
Mirri's Guile Provides filtering.
Sylvan Library See above. Also has some synergy with Words of War.
Sacred Mesa An alternative win condition.
Luminarch Ascension Ditto.
Baneslayer Angel Brought in post-sideboard. Most opponents will have sided-out their creature removal, letting these or some other big fatty win you the game.
Lotus Petal Acceleration.
Elvish Spirit Guide Acceleration, Daze "counter".
Chrome Mox Permanent acceleration at the cost of a spell.
Exploration Not as commonly run with the printing of Utopia Sprawl. I don't think Enchantress runs enough lands to capitalize on its effect.
Gaea's Touch See above, except worse in most situations.
And obviously your sideboard can run cards that work fine elsewhere, stuff like Tormod's Crypt, Faerie Macabre, etc.
Play Style:
Your ideal opening is landing an Enchantress effect by turn 2, and then drawing through your deck while landing defenses every turn thereafter. Sometimes a hand without an Enchantress in the opening 7 is workable, particularly if it contains a hoser that you know will really screw up your opponent or a tutor so you can get your pieces as needed. The 'lock' occurs after you have at least two Enchantresses on the board, a Sterling Grove for targeted protection (even better if you have two!), and a Solitary Confinement that you can sustain thanks to the Enchantresses. At this point, it becomes difficult if not downright impossible for most opposing decks to win. Even if your opponent can manage to somehow sweep your board, you can often Replenish everything back into play the turn after. Then it just becomes a matter of swinging for the win with tokens (careful about decking yourself!) or burning them with Words of War.
Fast decks like Zoo can still beat you if they draw the nuts and you draw crap, but in general your aggro matchup is very favorable. Goblins in particular has a lot of trouble, especially since they aren't running Quasali Pridemage. Against blue, you have a decent matchup thanks to your color-hosers and Replenish. Just be extra careful to play around Daze if you see Islands in play. Against some Merefolk and Dreadstill builds, landing Moat is GG. The worst matchup, combo, has been dealt a huge blow with the banning of Mystical Tutor, so if you can get a sustainable Solitary Confinement out in time, winning is possible in these scenarios.
The main questions that remain regarding deck construction:
-Should accelerants be ran, and if so how many? Should land auras or lands be cut for those slots?
-1, 2, or 3 win conditions?
-Is the red splash necessary (I think it is, but obviously people have won tournaments with just Sigil)
-Should the build veer more towards the combo or the control side?
-Are deck filters (Mirri's Guile, Sylvan Library) worth the slots?
-Should the main deck be built to better handle fast aggro or blue decks? (Assuming a large unknown meta like a Grand Prix)
I'd like to contribute with my experience too, if it can help anyone, then so be it. Please keep in mind that this is just my opinion.
1- Sigil and Words win this battle. Sigil because it just requires the mana to cast it and the tokens just need you to develop your board as usual, unlike Mesa, which requires additional mana to be spent specifically on it.Quote:
1: Sigil vs. Sacred Mesa vs. Words of War, 1 win condition vs. 2 vs. 3.
2: Lotus Petal vs. ESG vs. Chrome Mox
3: Humility good/bad.
4: City of Solitude vs. Choke vs. Carpet of Flowers vs. Vexing Shusher
5: Will Enchantress work w/o Moat.
Bonus: How bad Land Tax would be if it were unbanned.
To put it in numbers, Mesa needs :4: :w: :w: :w: :w: and :1: :w: to maintain itself and provide the same pressure as 1 Sigil token, while Sigil needs the mana to cast an enchantment, which goes from :g: to :3: :w: :w: (you also get that enchantment's own benefits).
Words because it's an alternate win condition and a way to avoid decking yourself.
3 win conditions because Sigil doesn't need the game to be locked in your favor to function. I actually run 4, that is, 3 Sigils 1 Words. See below.
2- Chrome Mox wins despite the card disadvantage because it provides mana every turn. There are always cards to imprint. In the case of the 3rd Sigil mentioned above, it's useful outside of a lock so you can run 3 to draw one early; however, if you really need it, it doesn't hurt to imprint one on a Mox.
3- Humility is bad because it shuts down half of the draw engine, until they print Enchantress's Presence Reloaded 2.0. Humility will then become a house, although not necessarily a must. Sigil doesn't really like it, but neither do Zoo or Merfolk.
4- City of Solitude wins for as long as the staple counterspells are free. Choke goes in a 2nd position because it needs to catch the opponent tapped out. Carpet of Flowers must be cast in the first two turns of the game or it becomes rather useless. Vexing Shusher can't compete with enchantments here.
5- The key is not the card itself, but its role. Moat, as a general barrier without upkeep costs, is a bridge between Elephant Grass losing effectiveness as your opponent drops lands and Solitary Confinement unable to sustain itself due to an underdeveloped board or draw engine. Anything able to fill this role can replace Moat. Possible worse but cheaper candidates could be Island Sanctuary or Dueling Grounds.
Bonus: I see Land Tax taking the role of fetchlands mainly, so it can't find a home in this deck. However, a different approach with Mox Diamond and Exploration could be tried, with unpredictable results.
Back to budget lists real fast, How does this look for a budget list:
4 Argothian Enchantress
Creatures [4]
2 Carpet of Flowers
1 Choke
3 Elephant Grass
4 Enchantress's Presence
1 Island Sanctuary
3 Oblivion Ring
3 Replenish
2 Runed Halo
1 Sigil of the Empty Throne
3 Solitary Confinement
4 Sterling Grove
4 Utopia Sprawl
4 Wild Growth
1 Words of War
8 Forest
4 Windswept Heath
6 Plains
2 Serra's Sanctum
Board:
1 Aura of Silence
1 Carpet of Flowers
1 Choke
1 City of Solitude
1 Elephant Grass
2 Enlightened Tutor
1 Karmic Justice
3 Mindbreak Trap
2 Runed Halo
2 Wheel of Sun and Moon
I'm hoping to take this to the Starcitygames Open in Denver and am looking to refine this budget list.
I wasn't posting those questions so we could all answer them. I was saying they've all been discussed atleast 20 times in 100 pages. Oh well, as long as everyone else did.
1: In my opinion Words is the best. It has the power to end the game quicker than any other (good) answer, it keeps you from decking yourself, and in a pinch it can burn PITA creatures. Sigil is good too, I would run atleast 1. Sigil ends the game fairly quickly and if for whatever reason you can't get the draw engine online you can still win with 4/4 angels, also giant blockers come in handy sometimes. Sacred Mesa isn't terrible but I like Sigil better. In the long run you end up paying more to win with Mesa (way more) and you aren't using that mana to play spells. To me the day mana burn ended Mesa left the deck never to return. The only way I would consider Mesa again was if Earthcraft became legal because infinite tokens are hilarious. Every other answer is crap. Words of Wind sucks, Words of Wild sucks, I could just win with WoW instead. Luminarch Ascension is beyond crap, if I don't take damage for 4 straight turns I shouldn't start making Angel tokens, I should be putting my angel tokens back in their box because I just won the game 2 turns ago.
2: Chrome Mox, Card disadvantage sucks but the fact the mana boost lasts all game is clutch many many times. As cool as first turn Argothian is, First turn Argothian, Second turn Presence is better. There are very few turns where I don't use every single mana available, so having 1 extra mana for the rest of the game pays off. Also drawing Mox in the middle of comboing out is still good, and in some cases, very good.
3: They all say, "Well, Humility shuts down utility creatures." I say between Moat, Grove, Confinement, Halo, Lignify, Karakas, and O. Ring all maindeck the only creature I can't shut down is Argothian Enchantress. Get it.
4: Vexing Shusher is by far the best option, but the more people play it the worse he becomes so you guys should just keep playing City of Solitude.
5: Moat belongs in Enchantress, if you don't have Moat you are playing budget Enchantress. It will work but Moat makes the deck better.
bonus: Land Tax sucks and will continue to suck until the end of time and space. If I was playing vs. someone and they played Land Tax turn 1 I don't know if I would laugh or thank the DCI for blessing me with such a terrible opponent to goldfish my deck against.
A lot of people locally have been talking like this is the new big bad deck to beat lately. Any thoughts? Should we up the Replenish count? I'm currently running 3, with the 3rd in the board.
If this deck takes off like the locals, and that goober Doug Linn seem to think it will, what do we want to plan for the mirror?
Personally I like 1 main and 1 in the board. If you see that singleton in G1, it can go fetch up a silver bullet that you're running main... like a Blood Moon for Lands... a Ground Seal for Dredge, Reanimator, or Loam... a Moat for aggro... whatever... sure it doesn't cantrip, and you don't want 4 since you already have the Groves... but I like the one in the main, and I bring in the 2nd one against decks where it's important for us to see a sideboard card in G2 and G3.Quote:
Originally Posted by dontbiteitholmes
I've been playing with 2 Vexing Shusher in my sideboard for a little bit now. The one thing I've found, is that it works better against non-Countertop decks... if you try to use it against Countertop, you essentially are going to pay 1 extra for every spell that you want to stick. The only real benefit I see to Vexing Shusher is the fact he is a creature. Your opponent might side out his creature removal. But if they bring in enchantment removal, they can hit your City of Solitude or Choke. A combination of all 3 of those might be the right answer, but I don't really know for sure what the correct balance might be... gonna be doing some heavy play testing to get ready for Columbus...Quote:
Originally Posted by dontbiteitholmes
Oh, that brings up another point. I'd like to hear other players' experience with Stax... my experiences with it have been bad... unless you can get set up super super fast, or have some early disruption, they can hurt you quickly and lock you out. Even if you drop an early Solitary Confinement, it can be rough if they play out right. I think their problem has been inconsistency, but with the reintroduction of Grim Monolith, I have a feeling we'll be seeing more Stax in Columbus as people give it a whirl...
How does this look for a budget deck?
// Deck file for Magic Workstation (http://www.magicworkstation.com)
// Lands
6 [ROE] Forest (1)
2 [ROE] Plains (1)
2 [R] Savannah
1 [R] Taiga
4 [ON] Windswept Heath
4 [ON] Wooded Foothills
2 [US] Serra's Sanctum
// Creatures
4 [US] Argothian Enchantress
// Spells
4 [ON] Enchantress's Presence
4 [IN] Sterling Grove
4 [7E] Wild Growth
4 [DIS] Utopia Sprawl
2 [VI] Elephant Grass
3 [JU] Solitary Confinement
2 [UD] Replenish
1 [6E] Enlightened Tutor
2 [CFX] Sigil of the Empty Throne
1 [ON] Words of War
2 [TE] Mirri's Guile
2 [DDD] Lignify
2 [CHK] Ghostly Prison
1 [OD] Ground Seal
1 [HOP] Oblivion Ring
// Sideboard
SB: 2 [VI] City of Solitude
SB: 2 [ARE] Enlightened Tutor
SB: 1 [FNM] Aura of Silence
SB: 2 [US] Carpet of Flowers
SB: 2 [SHM] Wheel of Sun and Moon
SB: 2 [TE] Choke
SB: 2 [OD] Ground Seal
SB: 2 [OD] Karmic Justice
Obviously the only big card I'm missing is Moat. . .but with Ghostly Prison I think I can survive until I get a moat.
Neuad - I'd up the basics count and drop the Wooded Foothills. You need to be hitting Forests to play your Utopia Sprawls. I haven't seen many lists with 8 fetches.
-4 Foothills
+4 Forests
even? or -2 +2, or some unmentioned combo.
Either cut some fetches or add some Guiles. Mirri's is really the only reason I can think of to run more then the usual 4 Windswept Heaths.Quote:
Originally Posted by Neuad
I only run 4 fetches and still <3 Mirri's Guile. It's probably my 3rd favorite 1 drop in the deck. Helps even out marginal hands.
Has anyone put thought into some of the fairly powerful new M11 enchants? Some of them look just crazy enough to pull this deck in a very different direction. I won't play them for the Grand Prix most likely, but there are a couple I'm looking at for testing afterward.