All B/R update speculation.

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Originally Posted by Jenni

I would much rather they restrict it, like they did in vintage, but Wotc doesn't like to restrict things anymore.

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It sounds like you want to play Vintage, and that's OK, but that doesn't mean Strip Mine would be reasonable in Legacy. The mana bases in Legacy are a defining part of the format and the introduction of Strip Mine would drastically change things. With 4x Strip Mine in the format the incentive for playing basics would be severely reduced (or perhaps even eliminated altogether). What you are suggesting would radically alter a facet of the game that almost everybody likes as-is.

If you want to be able to destroy basics, Ghost Quarter is a card. Anyway, there's no real point in discussing Strip Mine's effect on Legacy because the DCI/Wizards will never ever unban Strip Mine.

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Originally Posted by sdematt

Would a 4/4 or 5/5 Juzam Djinn with Trample for 2B be too good? Or just fine? I think it'd probably be just fine.

-Matt

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It would probably suck. Give it pro W, and we can talk. Even with trample it's just a "vanilla" donk who is vulnerable to swords. A creature for 3 mana should either have an immediate effect on the game or win the game if you untap with it. Otherwise it's just a card that does nothing in the early game, gets delayed by Wasteland even further and then dies to Swords...

Btw even if a really awesome black creature gets printed, we won't see competetive mono b decks again, ever. It's more likely that some variant of UB or BUG would become a good deck then. But monoblack is just too vulnerable to so many things. It's less interactive and can't switch gears as easly as any blue deck ever could.
I would give up any hope about some weird monocolored decks rising in the future or blues dominance ending. It's just how the game works on a competetive level - the more options you have and the deeper your levels of interaction are, the more likely you are to have a plan against lots of different decks.

Anyway, I keep my fingers crossed for some awesome black creature in the future to finally be able to play straight UB again. Ah, good old days when black was considered to be the strongest color in the game with all of it's rituals and negators and necropotences and tutors...

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Originally Posted by joemauer

Edit: Black could use a two mana zombie lord.

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I would love a Zombie Lord of Atlantis:

T1: Swamp, Ritual, three 2 power zombies
T2: Urborg, Zombie Lord, swing for unblockable 9 damage
T3: Swing, win (if they can't block your Lord or fetched already twice)

But considering Zombies are currently a force to reckon with in Standard, it isn't going to happen anytime soon.

What black needs with the current powercreep are

a) more weenies with Deathtouch for combat relevance
b) Negator-class beaters that don't suck nowadays - pro white and 4+ toughness would definitely be a start.

E.g. Phyrexian Crusader would have been extremely awesome if it had Deathtouch instead of Infect.

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Originally Posted by Jenni

Strip Mine This one is banned more because it's not fun to play against I think, but I rather like the card and would love to have it available. It's certainly powerful, but not completely broken. I can understand why it's banned, but I personally wouldn't mind having it back.

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As others already said, it would warp Legacy in a way that is neither fun nor rewarding (in terms of deck building).

The Zombie lords idea is a good point. Perhaps we can expect some Zombie love once they rotate.. and that might switch up modern as well.

I still think black has been getting some love and thankfully cards like Gravecrawler aren't getting played in blue because they are specifically designed to get played with other black cards. I think the main problem with creating black creatures with power creep is that its easier to do if you make them utility creatures.. like the infamous 'Chains of Mephistopheles' Confidant-esque creature we've discussed for years.

But I'm looking more at something like a black Goyf.


(creature) BB
Creature - Demon
Whenever ~ attacks, discard a card.
Whenever a player discard a card, ~ gets +2/+2 until end of turn.
2/2
R

Would blue play that? Meh perhaps. Being able to use discard to pump your dudes is kinda cool though. Might work well with Liliana as well.

just out of curiosity... but what would happen to this format if someone at Wizards of the Coast decided it would be a good idea to ban Karakas just because they can?

EDIT: Sorry, I know this will probably start all sorts of flames. But I seriously see this as a potential problem given the fact that Miracles, Maverick AND Death and Taxes all run Karakas, not to mention any other deck that wants an answer to Reanimator. My concern is that someone at Wizards will see the density of Karakas in the format and decide that the card is dominating the format, and therefore decide that they should ban it for that reason.

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Originally Posted by DalkonCledwin

just out of curiosity... but what would happen to this format if someone at Wizards of the Coast decided it would be a good idea to ban Karakas just because they can?

EDIT: Sorry, I know this will probably start all sorts of flames. But I seriously see this as a potential problem given the fact that Miracles, Maverick AND Death and Taxes all run Karakas, not to mention any other deck that wants an answer to Reanimator. My concern is that someone at Wizards will see the density of Karakas in the format and decide that the card is dominating the format, and therefore decide that they should ban it for that reason.

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What? Are you seriously worried Karakas will be banned?

I put the odds of that happening at negative infinity %.

Also how is Karakas dominating the format? It is worse than a Plains probably 25-50% of the time it hits play. Of all the words to define Karakas in Legacy, dominating doesn't come to mind. It's a good-great utility land, nothing more.

your objection of my post is based on a hypothetical member of the Wizards of the Coast Staff who I made up in my mind purely for the express purpose of demonstrating that the possibility for such a staff member to exist and come to an outrageous (and mind you, incorrect) conclusion regarding the status of Karakas in the Legacy Format could actually happen is hilarious.

I was not saying that I believe that Karakas is dominating the format. What I was saying was that it is possible that someone on the Wizards of the Coast Staff could come to the wrong conclusion about the status of Karakas in our format and call for it's banning. Additionally my question was more geared towards a hypothetical question of "What would happen if it WERE to be banned." Since this is a banned list speculation thread, I figured speculation on the what if's regarding the effect of banning a specific card wouldn't be too out of place. But if I am wrong, the Mods are perfectly within their rights to tell me otherwise and I will drop the subject.

What's the base of your speculation? See, there is none, so it's totally pointless. Also, I have no clue why you think someone at wotc would randomly have that idea. Because it's banned in EDH and wotc would want to make Legacy more like EDH?

Impact on the format would be little. Reanimator might become better, while W based decks would lose a few percentages against random legends or not being able to bounce their own creature. Obv DnT would instantly die. So all it would do is randomly screwing decks, while adding no benefit to the format as in making it more healty.

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Originally Posted by dontbiteitholmes

What? Are you seriously worried Karakas will be banned?

I put the odds of that happening at negative infinity %.

Also how is Karakas dominating the format? It is worse than a Plains probably 25-50% of the time it hits play. Of all the words to define Karakas in Legacy, dominating doesn't come to mind. It's a good-great utility land, nothing more.

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WTF, Karakas keeps these ridiculous 2-card herp-derp combo decks, allowing us to enjoy brokeness in our format without being overrun by mindless strategies. It's great for our format. What's next, banning all forms of graveyard hate, Mindbreak Trap, and Force of Will?

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Originally Posted by DalkonCledwin

My concern is that someone at Wizards will see the density of Karakas in the format and decide that the card is dominating the format, and therefore decide that they should ban it for that reason.

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So, you think they might ban a card based on it being in a lot of decks...and you come to the conclusion that Karakas would be that card, rather than the cards that see significantly more play than Karakas, like Brainstorm, Force of Will, Wasteland, or Swords to Plowshares?

What is this I don't even.

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Originally Posted by joemauer

If we are being over the top ridiculous, I forgot to mention Norin the Wary as well.
I was talking about playable creatures at the one mana slot.

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The Ogre was a Stompy staple for years. Kird Ape was also rather popular. Black never had a monopoly on playable 2/2s for one mana, they just happened to have a few more decent ones kicking around.

My current list of cards that i want unbanned are;

Earthcraft
Mana Drain
Survival of the Fittest

And i want Vengevine to be put on the banned list.

Really, Survival has always been a toolbox deck that is really grindy and sweet. Vengevine was the card that put it over the top. Mana Drain is better than counterspell, but i doubt it'll see an immense amount of play. However the price on it would skyrocket and that would be horrible. If they reprinted it i'd be all for unbanning this card. Please no 400$ mana drains plix. Earthcraft is a two piece combo that doesn't win you the game on the spot, seems fair. We have other combos in the meta, why not this?

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Originally Posted by Stoyrm

My current list of cards that i want unbanned are;

Earthcraft
Mana Drain
Survival of the Fittest

And i want Vengevine to be put on the banned list.

Really, Survival has always been a toolbox deck that is really grindy and sweet. Vengevine was the card that put it over the top. Mana Drain is better than counterspell, but i doubt it'll see an immense amount of play. However the price on it would skyrocket and that would be horrible. If they reprinted it i'd be all for unbanning this card. Please no 400$ mana drains plix. Earthcraft is a two piece combo that doesn't win you the game on the spot, seems fair. We have other combos in the meta, why not this?

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I would like to see Mana Drain unbanned, barring a reprint to keep the price down. The only counter-argument I have heard for not unbanning Mana Drain is that it is a spell that could enable a turn three Jace. However, I fail to see why this should be a concern in a format that can get Emrakul into play on turn two.

Before they ban Karakas they should ban Island, if your non-reason for ban is format dominance.

I'd love to see SotF unbanned, I don't mind if Vengevine would be legal at the same time since I believe the deck was never so broken as lots of players pretend it was. And Surgical and Snapcaster Mage have been printed in the meantime. Given the amount of amazing creatures WG has had lately, a no-Vengevine-based Maverick/SotF brew would be a serious contender. I want it legal again... Survival offered lots of deckbuilding possibilities and rewarded playskill (obviously before VV). RGBSA we miss you.

Hmm ... I'm inclined to say Lion's Eye Diamond should be banned, if only because almost every combo deck benefits from having it. However, I strongly believe its cousin, Lotus Petal, should be hit before it, as that enables all the turn 1 wins any combo deck can potentially muscle out. Spirit Guides are somewhat of a consideration, but to be fair Petal adds one mana of any color to your mana pool, ups storm count for free, and has a greater presence that both SGs and LEDs outside of Dredge.

As for unbans . . . not really sure.

Currently, there are no turn1 kills in the format with good enough expected value to even consider banning either Lotus Petal or Lion's Eye Diamond. With great speed comes great vulnerability and there are just too many Force of Will, Spell Pierce and IoK/Thoughtseize or other forms of hate flying around to make dedicated turn1 kills worthwile. No need to ban any of the accelerators. I can understand that you might feel "cheated" when your Goblins deck loses to turn1 Goblin Charbelcher, but truth is, in comparions, your Goblin deck is likely to win more matches over the course of the tournament.

I don't think Mana Drain should be part of this format. As much as I love Drain, it's just not a part of Legacy anymore.

for unbannings, I'd like to see Mind Twist and Survival of the Fittest come off. We have grave-hate now. Surgical is just the nutter0butters against the "Oops I win" strategy.

-Matt

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Originally Posted by sdematt

I don't think Mana Drain should be part of this format. As much as I love Drain, it's just not a part of Legacy anymore.

for unbannings, I'd like to see Mind Twist and Survival of the Fittest come off. We have grave-hate now. Surgical is just the nutter0butters against the "Oops I win" strategy.

-Matt

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People seemed to have forgotten that Survival decks could easiily win without Vengevine. And they also ran Force of Will and Daze to combat Surgical Extraction(despite this not existing at the time.

I personally don't miss SotF, but I may be in the minority. SotF, like Show and Tell, continously got stronger as players realized its potential and better cards were printed.

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Originally Posted by Stoyrm

Mana Drain is better than counterspell, but i doubt it'll see an immense amount of play.

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You're joking right? Turn 2 Mana Drain, turn 3 Jace or other threat at 2 mana with MANA OPEN to protect it. Think about how good that is on the play. Mana Drain is better than Force of Will because rather than having to lose a card you GAIN tempo. Maybe not broken, but certainly fuck-nuts good and would get a ton of play.

Mana Drain in legacy would be wrong, in my humble opinion.

I want to see Mind Twist unbanned. It opens you up to tapping out, which in turn opens you up to cheap spells like Spell Pierce and Daze. If it resolves, you're doing really well but most of the time,at worst, it will land in the 3-4 mana range where someone gets Hymn-ed or loses 3 cards. Good? Yes. Broken? Not really. Beyond that stage in the game, hands are usually empty or near empty anyways and the board state is more important (unless you're playing against combo, then it could be auto-win against them. Other than dredge, of course.) If you've ever played against Pox decks you know that Liliana is better than Mind Twist because she SUSTAINS empty hand/top deck situations. Mind Twist is a tempo/control play, and a somewhat risky one at that.

My opinion...but it could be that I just want to use it as a way to empty my opponents hand and then ride my playset of Jace to victory. That would be epic...

Drain in Legacy would be cool to test out, at least. I feel like people don't evaluate it in context. What are you really Draining into? The god-hand plays would be Jace, Batterskull, etc. You can't really justify bigger spells like Sundering Titan just on the off chance you get a good Drain off.

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Originally Posted by joemauer

I personally don't miss SotF, but I may be in the minority. SotF, like Show and Tell, continously got stronger as players realized its potential and better cards were printed.

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SotF is nowhere near to SnT speaking of raw power. You need 1ggg to discard a creature, get a Squee and gain +1 ca out of it, or 1gggg to beat with 2 Vengevine and a couple of lizards. Snt? Tomb, island, SnT and that's it.

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Originally Posted by kiblast

SotF is nowhere near to SnT speaking of raw power. You need 1ggg to discard a creature, get a Squee and gain +1 ca out of it, or 1gggg to beat with 2 Vengevine and a couple of lizards. Snt? Tomb, island, SnT and that's it.

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Perhaps, but which one is banned in Legacy?

In my eyes, SotF nullified all other aggro strategies. If you wanted to play an aggro deck, you played SotF or you were just doing something inferior. S&T, other combo decks are still valid stragies. Omniciense isn't the only combo viable right now, you can also play Tendrils, Reanimator, Dredge, or even Belcher. So while you can argue power level of S&T is more than SotF, the warp on the meta is much less.

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Originally Posted by HammerAndSickled

Drain in Legacy would be cool to test out, at least. I feel like people don't evaluate it in context. What are you really Draining into? The god-hand plays would be Jace, Batterskull, etc. You can't really justify bigger spells like Sundering Titan just on the off chance you get a good Drain off.

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Any 2-3 mana threats for a discounted cost while leaving your own lands to do other work (Wasteland, Spell Pierce, Brainstorm, Swords to Plowshares, etc.) is good, when you consider it's attached to a counterspell. I'm not saying broken, but fuck-nuts good. A turn three Jace isn't crucial to your plan when you can *settle* for a turn two Tarmogoyf or Stoneforge Mystic for :g: or :w:

Why doesn't Cryptic Command see play in legacy? It's too costly at 4 mana, even when you get a two mode counterspell. Mana Drain is a 2 mana, two-mode counterspell. Easily exploitable and could create situations of absolute BLOWOUTS.

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Originally Posted by joemauer

Perhaps, but which one is banned in Legacy?

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That's a pretty poor argument.

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Originally Posted by jamis

In my eyes, SotF nullified all other aggro strategies. If you wanted to play an aggro deck, you played SotF or you were just doing something inferior. S&T, other combo decks are still valid stragies. Omniciense isn't the only combo viable right now, you can also play Tendrils, Reanimator, Dredge, or even Belcher. So while you can argue power level of S&T is more than SotF, the warp on the meta is much less.

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This is an interesting approach, but in the meantime Delver.decks appeared, Snapcaster was printed, and Goblin and other tribal decks got Cavern of Souls. Goblin and Combo Elves can regularly set up for turn 3 win. I say let's unban it and let's wait for meta to adapt to it; its impact and related strategies would probably be absorbed, at least partially, by the other archetypes.

Let me tell you the story of a deck I once played.

Highlights:
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Vengevine
4 Survival of the Fittest

With a manabase:
2 Forest
2 Tropical Island
4 Wasteland
8 fetchlands

Ya, deck was fun. Split in the finals of a >32 person tournament after losing round 1. :cool:

Yes Mana Drain would be good. Yes it would create blow outs. But there are more than a few good cards in Legacy that are good and create blow outs. Mana Drain is one of those cards that would be great in the control mirror, namely when it can counter Force, Jace, Batterskull. It would also be good against midrange decks that play high cc spells like Pulse, Deed, +3cc creatures, etc.

However.. Drain would not get played in dominant Tempo decks like RUG. There wouldn't be a point. They cannot abuse the card with such a low curve. Then again, slow control decks like UW Miracles, Blade control, BUG control, will have dirty hot sex with mana drain. But would it make them more Tier 1 than they already are?

The mana you get from Drain would allow you to cast Batterskull, Jace, Entreat, etc. without tapping out. This is definitely good, perhaps even game changing when the thing you cast with Drain is often going to be your win condition. There are still a few things that have to happen before you can blow out an opponent. You need a Mana Drain, a win condition, and a high cc spell on the opponents stack.

In general this card won't be good in the matchups these control decks already win. How does it really help them against combo? A well placed Counterspell is just as good as a Mana Drain here. In most cases too, you'll be hard pressed to justify cantripping into a win condition over another piece of permission just because you have a Mana Drain in hand. Against aggro, their curve is generally too low for Drain to have a consistent game changing impact. I mean even a high cc aggro deck like Goblins is kicking these control decks in the ass because they have Cavern/Vial. When you look at the control mirror though, Drain would just be ok against RUG because if they can land it on a Force or even a Goyf then it might be the key play of the game when you drop a win condition next turn. Still, even in that matchup.. would it really dislodge RUG from its throne? I think not. RUG's curve is just too low. Instead, it would be good against the decks that are trying hard to make a come back, ie. decks like GB Midrange variants that have generally a pretty high curve. These decks help contribute to a healthy format and a well placed Mana Drain will blow them out everytime. "Grave Titan? Pffftttthahaha. Come with me. This is the evolution of man. You stand here."

The slow control mirrors ie. Blade, Miracles and BUG would probably revolve around who makes the most of his Mana Drains... which means if you want to play a good, slow control deck, you best get yourself a very, very expensive card. Perhaps if they reprint it in The Vault sets or something then unbanning Drain would be a more reasonable choice.

Unban mind twist it's probably the weakest card on the list, people dumping their hand for a buncha mana / ritual like effects to mind twist an opponent early is not as powerful as people dumping their hand for a buncha mana / ritual like effects to goblin charbelcher, empty the warrens, ad nauseum, tendrils, etc.

In the late game against a deck that keeps many cards in hand, you're likely against a control deck, so when you top deck the mind twist, it'll likely be countered anyway.

If they unbanned it, I see it likely doing similar things that Land Tax did being unbanned, the price shooting up, then slowly dwindling back down as it will not be in the majority of decks anyway. Land tax was a "fun" unban, not an "o crap" unban, and I think mind twist would be more of a "fun" unban, not something that would cause a bunch of problems.

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Originally Posted by Vacrix

Yes Mana Drain would be good. Yes it would create blow outs. But there are more than a few good cards in Legacy that are good and create blow outs. Mana Drain is one of those cards that would be great in the control mirror, namely when it can counter Force, Jace, Batterskull. It would also be good against midrange decks that play high cc spells like Pulse, Deed, +3cc creatures, etc.

However.. Drain would not get played in dominant Tempo decks like RUG. There wouldn't be a point. They cannot abuse the card with such a low curve. Then again, slow control decks like UW Miracles, Blade control, BUG control, will have dirty hot sex with mana drain. But would it make them more Tier 1 than they already are?

The mana you get from Drain would allow you to cast Batterskull, Jace, Entreat, etc. without tapping out. This is definitely good, perhaps even game changing when the thing you cast with Drain is often going to be your win condition. There are still a few things that have to happen before you can blow out an opponent. You need a Mana Drain, a win condition, and a high cc spell on the opponents stack.

In general this card won't be good in the matchups these control decks already win. How does it really help them against combo? A well placed Counterspell is just as good as a Mana Drain here. In most cases too, you'll be hard pressed to justify cantripping into a win condition over another piece of permission just because you have a Mana Drain in hand. Against aggro, their curve is generally too low for Drain to have a consistent game changing impact. I mean even a high cc aggro deck like Goblins is kicking these control decks in the ass because they have Cavern/Vial. When you look at the control mirror though, Drain would just be ok against RUG because if they can land it on a Force or even a Goyf then it might be the key play of the game when you drop a win condition next turn. Still, even in that matchup.. would it really dislodge RUG from its throne? I think not. RUG's curve is just too low. Instead, it would be good against the decks that are trying hard to make a come back, ie. decks like GB Midrange variants that have generally a pretty high curve. These decks help contribute to a healthy format and a well placed Mana Drain will blow them out everytime. "Grave Titan? Pffftttthahaha. Come with me. This is the evolution of man. You stand here."

The slow control mirrors ie. Blade, Miracles and BUG would probably revolve around who makes the most of his Mana Drains... which means if you want to play a good, slow control deck, you best get yourself a very, very expensive card. Perhaps if they reprint it in The Vault sets or something then unbanning Drain would be a more reasonable choice.

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Some great points in there, and I 'lol-ed' at the dirty hot sex comment. :tongue: I agree with you whole-heartedly about the hard control decks loving it, and it making them better. I was especially thinking BUG/Mind Harvester/Intuition-Loam decks, which you alluded to. I think the best use of it in a control deck would be to use the spare mana to blow up the board with Deed. Mana Drain isn't a tempo-denial early play, that's what Daze, Spell Pierce, and Force do best. Mana Drain is the counterspell that helps you effortlessly establish inevitability by countering the key mid-game spell while setting up a cheap end-game yourself.

The other, off-beat consideration I have is this: would Karn Liberated be viable with 3 free mana off a Mana Drain? I can only dream...

I would also love to see Mana Drain in a Thopter-Sword deck. That's a deck where spare mana is almost NEVER wasted.

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Originally Posted by kiblast

SotF is nowhere near to SnT speaking of raw power. You need 1ggg to discard a creature, get a Squee and gain +1 ca out of it, or 1gggg to beat with 2 Vengevine and a couple of lizards. Snt? Tomb, island, SnT and that's it.

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You forgot something to SNT into play...

The biggest difference, Survival is a one card combo machine (yes you need a creature but you are always going to have it in any survival deck). No matter what the game state is you rip Survival and it's off to the races with Vines. Personally I feel the card is fine w/o Vine and that Vine should have been banned instead, but what can you do? That wasn't a decision that was rushed to. Lots of people, myself included said the format should have more time to adapt when SurvivalVine first started dominating. It was given time to play out a little and things just got worse. It was plain to see Survival warped things a little too much with Vengevine in the format.

The main problem with SNT is you are all in on the combo. If you can't manage to get off the combo or deal with the many things which can neuter the combo (many of which the opponent can drop for free off SNT) you lose, everytime. Plenty of SurvivalVine matches ended without a resolved SotF. Sure it was plan A but the plan B of just beating face was often enough and discard outlets made it realistic to get Vines for free early in the game even without Survival.

You can't really compare them "In raw power" like you are trying to. That's a pretty arbitrary standard.

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Originally Posted by EpicLevelCommoner

Hmm ... I'm inclined to say Lion's Eye Diamond should be banned, if only because almost every combo deck benefits from having it. However, I strongly believe its cousin, Lotus Petal, should be hit before it, as that enables all the turn 1 wins any combo deck can potentially muscle out. Spirit Guides are somewhat of a consideration, but to be fair Petal adds one mana of any color to your mana pool, ups storm count for free, and has a greater presence that both SGs and LEDs outside of Dredge.

As for unbans . . . not really sure.

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Because show and tell benefits from LED oh wait...

As for banning lotus petal, are you trolling? That card doesn't enable all the turn 1 wins in legacy or turn 0's for that matter in the form of 5 spirit guides, protean hulk/summoner's pact, through the breach. Also, storm combo decks haven't been doing well recently in the overall metagame especially when countertop miracles is a big thing in legacy right now.

Unbanning mana drain would probably end up being bad. I would hate playing the drain mirror and my wallet would implode if mana drain was unbanned, as drain playsets would probably cost upwards of $1200. Right now the optimal drain control shell doesn't exist however if drain was unbanned I'm positive someone could and would break the card in some new archetype.

I wouldn't care if survival was unbanned. However I doubt wizards will unban survival in the near future.

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Originally Posted by kiblast

That's a pretty poor argument.

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It wasn't so much an argument, but rather me trying to nudge you to think for yourself.

If one of these are banned which one of these has more raw power?

Survival of the Fittest is a one card combo machine with multiple ways of winning once it enters play. I think dontbiteitholmes summed up pretty good as to other reasons it has more "raw power" than Show and Tell.

When I came back into Legacy(and magic), around the time Ravinca was coming out, I was a little surprised Survival of the Fittest was unbanned while cards of similar power level(or less power level even) were on the banned list. Now Show and Tell is the one keeping me baffled for the same reason.

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Originally Posted by joemauer

When I came back into Legacy(and magic), around the time Ravinca was coming out, I was a little surprised Survival of the Fittest was unbanned while cards of similar power level(or less power level even) were on the banned list. Now Show and Tell is the one keeping me baffled for the same reason.

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Show and Tell is fragile in the sense that you only get one shot. My main issue with the card is that it's one of those things that "feels bad man" when you have a counterspell, and they just happen to have the backup too. It feels like a cheap way to win in those cases.
The meta is changing though. Karakas, Venser, etc. It should be kept in check for the most part now, though I'm a tad afraid of SnT -> Omniscience -> Enter the Infinite. Yes yes yes, I get that it's a 3 card combo... it will just feel really bad when they get there :P

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Originally Posted by Dark Ritual

Because show and tell benefits from LED oh wait...

As for banning lotus petal, are you trolling? That card doesn't enable all the turn 1 wins in legacy or turn 0's for that matter in the form of 5 spirit guides, protean hulk/summoner's pact, through the breach. Also, storm combo decks haven't been doing well recently in the overall metagame especially when countertop miracles is a big thing in legacy right now.

Unbanning mana drain would probably end up being bad. I would hate playing the drain mirror and my wallet would implode if mana drain was unbanned, as drain playsets would probably cost upwards of $1200. Right now the optimal drain control shell doesn't exist however if drain was unbanned I'm positive someone could and would break the card in some new archetype.

I wouldn't care if survival was unbanned. However I doubt wizards will unban survival in the near future.

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1. True. Though I did say "almost every" not just "every". Decks in particular that benefit from LED include decks that run Infernal Tutor or Burning Wish that do not require other cards in hand to go off ... and in my (admittedly limited) experience, that happens to be Storm-based decks or the random Past In Flames Storm or Bomberman port (that one I'm guilty of).

2. Not trolling, though perhaps I could have chosen a different terminology to express the concept of a turn 1 win ... perhaps a win that is sealed by turn 1 but doesn't actually happen until turn 2 or turn 3 (i.e. Omniscience into Emrakul, Empty the Warrens with Storm Count 4 to 5).

EDIT: Due to my limited experience with the Legacy format, I will concede that LED and Petal are not banworthy at this point in time.

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Originally Posted by mini1337s

Show and Tell is fragile in the sense that you only get one shot. My main issue with the card is that it's one of those things that "feels bad man" when you have a counterspell, and they just happen to have the backup too. It feels like a cheap way to win in those cases.
The meta is changing though. Karakas, Venser, etc. It should be kept in check for the most part now, though I'm a tad afraid of SnT -> Omniscience -> Enter the Infinite. Yes yes yes, I get that it's a 3 card combo... it will just feel really bad when they get there :P

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My last post was somewhat misleading. I don't feel as if Show and Tell is banworthy at the moment. I do feel as if Show and Tell becoming banned is inevitable though.

I think there are some cards that are as strong as Show and Tell or even weaker. I feel as if the following cards could safely be taken off the Legacy banned list:

Mindtwist: This one seems obvious to everyone except WotC. If you are living the dream of double Dark Ritual into Mindtwist then you are only up by one card. Wouldn't you rather just win the game with double Dark Ritual into Ad Nauseum anyway?

Earthcraft: This one is a combo card so it's comparison to Show and Tell is somewhat easy. Show and Tell is stronger than this card in my opinion. This card costs five mana total(Nest+Earthcraft) to combo out where as Show and Tell is three total. Both are effectively two card combos but Show and Tell only needs to resolve one card not two. Resolving Show and Tell is more often than not a better finisher then getting a bunch of squirrels into play. Finally, Show and Tell has awesome(can be pitched to Force of Will).

Land Tax: I believe this card is too situational to abuse in the current Legacy metagame. Also, being able to only get basics is tough to abuse with the current mana bases that most decks have. Finally, Life the Loam is pretty much better than Land Tax in almost every regard.

Worldgorger Dragon: This is another silly one to keep banned. Is the fear of someone causing an autodraw that scary? Wouldn't you rather just win with a good Reanimation target like Grisslebrand?

Tinker: This is the most controversial one so I won't waste my time explaining why I feel this card is on the same level as Show and Tell.

...Land Tax is unbanned.

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Originally Posted by Lord Seth

...Land Tax is unbanned.

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Oh. I didn't notice.

Nobody really did.

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Originally Posted by joemauer

My last post was somewhat misleading. I don't feel as if Show and Tell is banworthy at the moment. I do feel as if Show and Tell becoming banned is inevitable though.

I think there are some cards that are as strong as Show and Tell or even weaker. I feel as if the following cards could safely be taken off the Legacy banned list:

Mindtwist: This one seems obvious to everyone except WotC. If you are living the dream of double Dark Ritual into Mindtwist then you are only up by one card. Wouldn't you rather just win the game with double Dark Ritual into Ad Nauseum anyway?

Earthcraft: This one is a combo card so it's comparison to Show and Tell is somewhat easy. Show and Tell is stronger than this card in my opinion. This card costs five mana total(Nest+Earthcraft) to combo out where as Show and Tell is three total. Both are effectively two card combos but Show and Tell only needs to resolve one card not two. Resolving Show and Tell is more often than not a better finisher then getting a bunch of squirrels into play. Finally, Show and Tell has awesome(can be pitched to Force of Will).

Land Tax: I believe this card is too situational to abuse in the current Legacy metagame. Also, being able to only get basics is tough to abuse with the current mana bases that most decks have. Finally, Life the Loam is pretty much better than Land Tax in almost every regard.

Worldgorger Dragon: This is another silly one to keep banned. Is the fear of someone causing an autodraw that scary? Wouldn't you rather just win with a good Reanimation target like Grisslebrand?

Tinker: This is the most controversial one so I won't waste my time explaining why I feel this card is on the same level as Show and Tell.

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For someone who obviously doesn't pay attention to the format at all, you have some pretty bold unbannigs.

I'm sure you're just trolling...but tinker speeds up FoW combo by a full turn, and then allows tinker toolboxes. There is no way tinker is safe for any format as a 4x, the card is just ridiculously powerful.

@Tinker: Main offenders will be Sundering Titan, Spine of Ish-Sah, Myr Battlesphere, Possessed Portal, Platinum Emporium, Steel Hellkite