[Deck] Death and Taxes

Man, i would suggest playing the deck a lot more and exploring different builds/sideboard option before saying U/R delver is unbeatable. Actually I (and most people) think that it is an even or quite favorable. While treasure cruise and dig through time are a problem, spirit of the labyrinth , gaddock teeg, relic of progenitus are decent answers, and we have a lot of cards that crush their gameplan (mother of runes is good against removal, vial stops counterspells, thalia and manadenial are very good since they run few lands, equipments are game over.... ). Awesome sideboard cards that can completely swing the matchup in our favor are kor firewalker, circle of protection red and absolute law. The problematic matchup is uwr stoneforge/nemesis, not U/R. If you post your build we can maybe understand why you are having so much troubles.

^I find it the other way around. I'm not having trouble with those URW Stoneblade lists because they are slower out of the gate, compared to UR delver where playing on the draw is such a beating.

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Originally Posted by LeoCop 90

Man, i would suggest playing the deck a lot more and exploring different builds/sideboard option before saying U/R delver is unbeatable. Actually I (and most people) think that it is an even or quite favorable. While treasure cruise and dig through time are a problem, spirit of the labyrinth , gaddock teeg, relic of progenitus are decent answers, and we have a lot of cards that crush their gameplan (mother of runes is good against removal, vial stops counterspells, thalia and manadenial are very good since they run few lands, equipments are game over.... ). Awesome sideboard cards that can completely swing the matchup in our favor are kor firewalker, circle of protection red and absolute law. The problematic matchup is uwr stoneforge/nemesis, not U/R. If you post your build we can maybe understand why you are having so much troubles.

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In my experience, they will burn your Mother before it become active. They typically run 3 Forked Bolts which continues to 2-for-1 you. They will counter Absolute Law and copr. Stoneforge will also never get to become active.

How does you sideboard look like? I dont have room for Firewalkers.

Also, these stats shows very clearly that DnT struggles against UR Delver:
http://www.reddit.com/r/MTGLegacy/co...or_archetypes/

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Originally Posted by echofish

Also, these stats shows very clearly that DnT struggles against UR Delver:
http://www.reddit.com/r/MTGLegacy/co...or_archetypes/

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While I can't say that the matchup is favorable, it certainly shouldn't be that unfavored. Those results, while interesting, are odd. Look at the matchup versus Sneak and Show, 0-3. That is one of the more favored matchups this deck has, so things were certainly not breaking D&T's way that day.

You need somethinig in the board though, because this matchup is close to even pre-board, but post-board they will have hate and you need to have hate, or counter-hate, as well. If you don't post your list though, we really can't help much, since we have no idea what you are using and why it might not be working.

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Originally Posted by H

While I can't say that the matchup is favorable, it certainly shouldn't be that unfavored. Those results, while interesting, are odd. Look at the matchup versus Sneak and Show, 0-3. That is one of the more favored matchups this deck has, so things were certainly not breaking D&T's way that day.

You need somethinig in the board though, because this matchup is close to even pre-board, but post-board they will have hate and you need to have hate, or counter-hate, as well. If you don't post your list though, we really can't help much, since we have no idea what you are using and why it might not be working.

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I use much of the same sideboard as Marc Kunig, but I'll try to make room for some Firewalkers. I guess they are better then copr and Law, in the sense that they can be uncounterable with vial and cavern. Also not getting taxed with Thalia.

Been testing relic of progenitus as a mainboard solution to all the delving that's been going on. People used to use it in the mainboard of merfolk back when for various reasons, and I can't think of a better reason than for resource denial, which suites this deck perfectly.

This is the rough list:

lands//22
10 plains
2 karakas
2 flagstones of trokair
2 cavern of souls
2 rishadan port
4 wasteland

spells//12
4 aether vial
3 relic of progenitus
3 swords to plowshares
1 umezawa's jitte
1 batterskull

creatures//26
4 thalia
4 stoneforge
4 mother of runes
4 spirit of the labrinth
4 flickerwisp
3 serra avenger
2 aven mindcensor
1 mangara of corondor


The sideboard is inconsequential at the moment. The inclusion of relic of progenitus into the mainboard is something that I feel may become more common in the future. I want the 4th in the main, but i'm not sure what to cut. I'm also not too sure about all the numbers, as I never really tested the deck until recently.

Relic has been doing very well in testing, sometimes giving me free wins against graveyard dependent strategies. It also keeps treasure cruise decks honest. The singleton mangara seems random, but he always seems to show up to save my ass, so maybe the silver bullet is worth it.

Any thoughts towards cleaning up the list for the currrent meta, while keeping the relics, let me know. I'd like to hear em.

Could the new B&R update be a good news to DNT players? I am thinking what I should play at GPT this weekend.

Yes, of course it's good news for DnT. Just be ready for the return of black attrition decks.

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Originally Posted by thefreakaccident

Been testing relic of progenitus as a mainboard solution to all the delving that's been going on...

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Well, I thought that idea really had some merit... I guess its just not going to be as relevant anymore.

That being said, if BUG is going to come back in a big way, MD Relic seems cool as a way to mitigate the power of Goyf in the mid-late game; I've always found 4 STP to be not nearly enough to deal with all the DRS and/or Delvers and/or Goyfs hitting the table.

Plus I get the sense that cycling through the deck is actually something that we want to be able to do more of; experience with Horizon Canopy pointing me here. Lack of card selection outside of SFM means dig is actually helpful; the number of times I just need to draw an STP or another Wisp to steal the game...

Seems like the time to switch brimaz back to mirran crusader. Also seems like spirit of the labyrinth is less needed now, and perhaps the 4th revoker can return to being the norm. In the sideboard, cards like Absolute Law, COP:Red, and Ratchet Bomb might be able to be trimmed for cards that help against BUG strategies, like mirran crusader or wilt-leaf liege, or putting the 2nd rest in peace back in.

Overall I think this is great news for DnT players.

Ok, made something Janky.

lands//23
4 scrubland
1 marsh flats
1 flooded strand
1 arid mesa
2 windswept heath
4 wasteland
3 karakas
2 plains
1 urborg, tomb of yawgmoth
3 cavern of souls

spells//
4 aether vial
3 zealous persecution
1 batterskull
1 sword of fire/ice

creatures//27
4 mother of runes
4 stoneforge mystic
4 thalia
4 deathrite shaman
4 braids, cabal minion
3 mangara
4 flickerwisp


The deck is basically a creature based stax, and I've been seeing a lot of creatures with the backside of one recently, hence the persecutions.

Braids and Taxes. If only Braids was a 3 drop I'd be all over that. If you're going to try Braids though you might want some form of token generator to sack to Braids if need be, like perhaps Brimaz?

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Originally Posted by Bosque

Braids and Taxes. If only Braids was a 3 drop I'd be all over that. If you're going to try Braids though you might want some form of token generator to sack to Braids if need be, like perhaps Brimaz?

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Started testing brimaz as a four of since you mentioned him. He's actually a fantastic card. He deals good dmg and then also defends equally, i've been impressed. Fits the legend theme of the deck as well, which gives me a better chance of saving him via karakas.

Jesus, nice snap-ban from WotC. I guess since everyone else is convinced that BGx is coming back, we should consider Wilt-Leaf and Crusader again.

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Originally Posted by apple713

i know some decks have been trying a green splash, so would it be too much of a stretch to include birthing pod to pull out the silver bullet creatures when you need them? Seems slow tho?

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This suggestion is almost as bad as your "Chalice of the dark order" "innovation"

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Originally Posted by echofish

I use much of the same sideboard as Marc Kunig, but I'll try to make room for some Firewalkers. I guess they are better then copr and Law, in the sense that they can be uncounterable with vial and cavern. Also not getting taxed with Thalia.

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Kunig? :really:

Don't bother with the firewalkers, they are bad and now they are unnecessary.

My new list looks like this:


Lands (23):

1x Cavern of Souls
1x Horizon Canopy
3x Karakas
4x Flagstones of Trokair
6x Plains
4x Rishadan Port
4x Wasteland


Creatures (26):

4x Flickerwisp (4!!!)
4x Mother of Runes
4x Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
4x Stoneforge Mystic
4x Phyrexian Revoker
2x Mangara of Corondor
2x Mirran Crusader
2x Serra Avenger

Non-creature spells (11):

4x Æther vial
4x Swords to Plowshares
1x Umezawa's Jitte
1x Sword of Fire and Ice
1x Batterskull

Sideboard:

2x Cataclysm
1x Council's Judgement
2x Enlightened tutor
3x Rest in Peace
1x Pithing Needle
1x Ratchet Bomb
2x Ethersworn Canonist
2x Wilt-Leaf Liege
1x Mindbreak Trap


Not done working on the sideboard yet. And Serra Avenger can be discussed, but it's usually pretty solid against stuff like Punishing Fire, Tarmogoyfs and Agents of the shardless variety.

4x Flagstones now because the downside is almost non-existent and it wins games with Cataclysm when you're behind vs. Miracles, Nic Fit, Lands, 12 post etc.

Deck is now better against: Miracles, Shardless BUG, Jund, Mirror, Stoneblade and a lot of random crap like Pox, Nic Fit etc.
Deck is now worse against: Blood Moon decks, UR delver, Burn, Storm (game 1).

EDIT: I expect miracles to dominate the meta, and if they don't push out elves enough. Then I will start including Containment Priest again. But for now we will wait and see how the meta plays out, but I would play this list in any open meta with the new B&R list.

Ill sleeve it and give you my opinion on it Bahra.

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Originally Posted by Bahra

This suggestion is almost as bad as your "Chalice of the dark order" "innovation"

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I hate posting non-topic stuff, but, for some inexplicable reason, I have been laughing for over a minute at this statement. I think I need help.

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Originally Posted by razvan

I hate posting non-topic stuff, but, for some inexplicable reason, I have been laughing for over a minute at this statement. I think I need help.

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It's always funny watching someone get burned

Bahra: Heh. Sorry about that :)

Why only one Cavern? Also, I have big troubles resolving Cataclysm against Miracles. Since they have a hard time countering anything in the deck, they will have a counter spell ready for it.

Here is a simple Death & Taxes primer for the uninitiated!
http://www.moxboardinghouse.com/medi...y-death-taxes/

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Originally Posted by echofish

Bahra: Heh. Sorry about that :)

Why only one Cavern? Also, I have big troubles resolving Cataclysm against Miracles. Since they have a hard time countering anything in the deck, they will have a counter spell ready for it.

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Only one Cavern of Souls because it is awesome, but it is too taxing on the already questionable mana base to add more.

If they have a hard time countering anything, it means you're winning. They have to counter Vial and Pithing Needle. If they don't counter any of the other stuff, then there's usually too much to deal with so either you win, or you resolve your Cataclysm and then you probably win too.

Usually it is not that simple though, you have to really play to your Cataclysm once you have it. Make them tap out for Jace, wait till they've played a ton of lands, tapped out for entreat or something similar, and then fire it off. Jamming it on turn 4 is usually wrong.

So if you pick your spots right, then your Cataclysm will resolve and be effective in most cases.

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Originally Posted by Bahra

Only one Cavern of Souls because it is awesome, but it is too taxing on the already questionable mana base to add more.

If they have a hard time countering anything, it means you're winning. They have to counter Vial and Pithing Needle. If they don't counter any of the other stuff, then there's usually too much to deal with so either you win, or you resolve your Cataclysm and then you probably win too.

Usually it is not that simple though, you have to really play to your Cataclysm once you have it. Make them tap out for Jace, wait till they've played a ton of lands, tapped out for entreat or something similar, and then fire it off. Jamming it on turn 4 is usually wrong.

So if you pick your spots right, then your Cataclysm will resolve and be effective in most cases.

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They will usually still have top+cb+land and play from the top of library, though.

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Originally Posted by echofish

They will usually still have top+cb+land and play from the top of library, though.

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Still worth it if it gets rid of a planeswalker or an army of angels + all of their lands but 1. If they already used entreat, they'll be practically forced to win through jace, and that's a difficult proposition with only 1 land in play. They'll have a hard time rebuilding their mana base once you have wiped out 5 or 6 of their mana sources.

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Originally Posted by echofish

They will usually still have top+cb+land and play from the top of library, though.

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Are you talking game 1? No one in their right mind plays Cataclysm main deck, and no decent miracles player has CB after board against D&T.

So I don't know if you guys heard but I won Eternal Clash 2015 on Saturday and my report is under "Tournament Reports".

I made a few changes to the list I posted earlier, namely I cut the Mindbreak Trap and the 3rd Rest in Peace in the board, in favor of 1 more Council's Judgement and a Containment Priest.

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Originally Posted by Bahra

So I don't know if you guys heard but I won Eternal Clash 2015 on Saturday and my report is under "Tournament Reports".

I made a few changes to the list I posted earlier, namely I cut the Mindbreak Trap and the 3rd Rest in Peace in the board, in favor of 1 more Council's Judgement and a Containment Priest.

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What are your thoughts on Enlightened Tutor with less different targets? It almost feels like they can just become another RIP/Relic and Canonist/Ratchet Bomb due to the lack of different targets you have. For example against Shardless BUG when you board in RIP, is it worth still boarding in the Tutor?

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Originally Posted by planeswalkerzen

What are your thoughts on Enlightened Tutor with less different targets? It almost feels like they can just become another RIP/Relic and Canonist/Ratchet Bomb due to the lack of different targets you have. For example against Shardless BUG when you board in RIP, is it worth still boarding in the Tutor?

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Well Ratchet Bomb, Pithing Needle, Rest in Peace and Ethersworn Canonist does vastly different things. So I like having the Enlightened Tutor. It COULD be just another piece of graveyard hate and another piece of storm hate, but I think that having access to 3 copies of Ratchet Bomb vs. TES and Belcher is great. And I like having so many cards vs. graveyard decks and storm decks altogether. I think the fair match up is good enough that you want the enlightened tutor (that I am never bringing in against any fair decks).

Congrats on the victory, Bahra!

Reading the report, I see you didn't side out the SFM package against Lands: that is usually the first thing I cut (except maybe SoFI) since the other equipments don't seem very good and require too much mana investment to be undone by a simple Maze of Ith activation. What do you take out then, and what is your reasoning?

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Originally Posted by Luca Grease

Congrats on the victory, Bahra!

Reading the report, I see you didn't side out the SFM package against Lands: that is usually the first thing I cut (except maybe SoFI) since the other equipments don't seem very good and require too much mana investment to be undone by a simple Maze of Ith activation. What do you take out then, and what is your reasoning?

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I cut Swords to Plowshares and Phyrexian Revoker (since it can only name Mox Diamond and it's very fragile) depending on their build. Stoneforge is fine because it is 2 threats in one (with Batterskull) and it fetches Sword of Fire and Ice that gives your creatures protection from Punishing Fire and makes them into very potent threats. All the equipment is fine since it lets you hit harder, and Maze of Ith can be dealt with, with Rishadan Port, Wasteland and Pithing Needle (although you mostly want to name Thespian's Stage with Pithing Needle). And playing Maze of Ith also slows them down, which gives you more time to draw Rest in Peace and Cataclysm. I think the mana investment argument is fundamentally flawed, since you will often have many turns and a lot of mana during the game. So unless you keep a hand that lets you get Wastelanded out of the game, you will get to play all your cards.

At the event I boarded like this versus RG Combo Lands: -2 Swords to Plowshares -4 Phyrexian Revoker -1 Mirran Crusader +2x Rest in Peace +2x Council's Judgement +2x Cataclysm +1x Pithing Needle.

I kept in 2x Swords to Plowshares because sometimes they just make a 20/20 on turn 2 and then you have to have more than just 3x Karakas to deal with it, but mostly Swords to Plowshares is not good in the match up. Mirran Crusader is very weak against them so I cut one, but it hits through Marit Lage and carries equipment well so one copy stayed in. It might be incorrect to cut all the Phyrexian Revokers since mana screwing lands is actually a very viable strategy with D&T, but it only hits 4 cards in their deck and so I think I value dedicated beaters higher.

I have never lost to Lands even though there's 3 lands (both RG Combo Lands and Intuition Lands) players at my LGS, so I think my sideboard plan and game plan against Lands is very solid.

Thanks for the reply, that's definitely a different perspective on sideboarding for Lands and it's always interesting to compare strategies. I am a little surprised that you don't side in your Tutors, since Pithing Needle and especially Rest in Peace are so powerful against them. Sure, they run Krosan Grips and can Gamble for them, but RiP can do a lot of work by just nuking their graveyard even if it's destroyed immediately after. SoFI and Batterskull are probably pretty good cards against them in much the same way they are against Miracles, and SFM can be activated at instant speed so Ports will have a hard time stopping you. I would still probably cut Jitte though.
I agree with you that Swords to Plowshares is not a very good answer to Marit Lage, the lifegain will usually undo all your work and allow them to re-assemble at their leisure. However, the Lands guy I usually test against has started playing Titania, Protector of Argoth in his maindeck, and if the trend catches on I definitely want all the StPs I can get...
Finally, while Revoker can only hit Mox Diamond, I remember quite a few games where it actually locked my opponent out of casting Loam early on cause he was relying on the Mox for his colored mana, so it's definitely not a worthless card in the match-up. At the end of the day, you've got to pick your battles and there is probably no "perfect" sideboarding strategy...

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Originally Posted by Luca Grease

Thanks for the reply, that's definitely a different perspective on sideboarding for Lands and it's always interesting to compare strategies. I am a little surprised that you don't side in your Tutors, since Pithing Needle and especially Rest in Peace are so powerful against them. Sure, they run Krosan Grips and can Gamble for them, but RiP can do a lot of work by just nuking their graveyard even if it's destroyed immediately after. SoFI and Batterskull are probably pretty good cards against them in much the same way they are against Miracles, and SFM can be activated at instant speed so Ports will have a hard time stopping you. I would still probably cut Jitte though.
I agree with you that Swords to Plowshares is not a very good answer to Marit Lage, the lifegain will usually undo all your work and allow them to re-assemble at their leisure. However, the Lands guy I usually test against has started playing Titania, Protector of Argoth in his maindeck, and if the trend catches on I definitely want all the StPs I can get...
Finally, while Revoker can only hit Mox Diamond, I remember quite a few games where it actually locked my opponent out of casting Loam early on cause he was relying on the Mox for his colored mana, so it's definitely not a worthless card in the match-up. At the end of the day, you've got to pick your battles and there is probably no "perfect" sideboarding strategy...

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I didn't sideboard in the Enlightened Tutors because RG Lands can easily be beaten without Rest in Peace and since they side in 4x Krosan Grips the 2 card investment and tempo loss is too much. If they have played Loam 3-4 times already then they have probably made Marit Lage several times by then and that is not undone by Rest in Peace. I also find that all my cards are so good in the match up that I don't want a tutor that denies me my next draw step. And if you just have cards that are troublesome for the opponent to deal with instead of Enlightened Tutors, then you will get to the late game (or kill your opponent before you get there) and eventually you'll draw one of your devastating sideboard cards. It is 2 different ways to approach the match up, but I think the Enlightened Tutor approach is better suited for dealing with Intuition Lands, because they use their graveyard much better and have a harder time playing without it.

I never said that Phyrexian Revoker is a worthless card in the match up, it's just that all your cards are so good that I think Revoker is the weakest card.

@Bahra I'm curious about the matchups you like bringing in Ratchet Bomb for. Off the top of my head: TES, Belcher, Elves, and the mirror. I'm curious if I'm missing any that are less intuitive though. I've stayed away from this card in the past because of my lack of confidence of when it's worth it, and I think that's possibly a mistake.

Another question I've been mulling over recently is whether or not Cataclysm would possibly be worth bringing in against Elves. My knee-jerk reaction is to say its just too slow, but perhaps we are able to consistently slow them down just enough to have the time to fire this off? I might be totally off-base on this. Just wanted to get some feedback.

PS @Bahra: I think I will be playing your 75 from your tournament report within a card or two at the SCG in Indy this weekend. It looks very solid for where things seem to be moving. I felt weird removing the Grafdigger's Cage, but with the second RIP going back in and Containment Priest existing now, it seems like Cage is probably too overlapping now.

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Originally Posted by cursecatcher

@Bahra I'm curious about the matchups you like bringing in Ratchet Bomb for. Off the top of my head: TES, Belcher, Elves, and the mirror. I'm curious if I'm missing any that are less intuitive though. I've stayed away from this card in the past because of my lack of confidence of when it's worth it, and I think that's possibly a mistake.

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I've also long snubbed Ratchet Bomb but I'm starting to feel like it might have been a mistake. Other than the situations you mentioned, the card is also pretty good against decks running Delvers/Young Pyromancers (flipped delvers have a CMC of 0), so definately a side-in against UR Delver, possibly even RUG. I guess there is some merit to the idea of siding it in against Miracles to nuke their Entreat the Angels, since you could theoretically still use it to get rid of some annoying post-board permanents if you need to be more proactive, but I that would probably end up destroying some of your stuff as well...

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Originally Posted by cursecatcher

@Bahra I'm curious about the matchups you like bringing in Ratchet Bomb for. Off the top of my head: TES, Belcher, Elves, and the mirror. I'm curious if I'm missing any that are less intuitive though. I've stayed away from this card in the past because of my lack of confidence of when it's worth it, and I think that's possibly a mistake.

Another question I've been mulling over recently is whether or not Cataclysm would possibly be worth bringing in against Elves. My knee-jerk reaction is to say its just too slow, but perhaps we are able to consistently slow them down just enough to have the time to fire this off? I might be totally off-base on this. Just wanted to get some feedback.

PS @Bahra: I think I will be playing your 75 from your tournament report within a card or two at the SCG in Indy this weekend. It looks very solid for where things seem to be moving. I felt weird removing the Grafdigger's Cage, but with the second RIP going back in and Containment Priest existing now, it seems like Cage is probably too overlapping now.

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Ratchet Bomb is great against Miracles, TES, Belcher, Elves, D&T and it's ok against ANT. I also board it in against RUG and UR delver because it deals with all their threats relatively quickly as well. It deals with the first Entreat out of Miracles, it deals with Empty the Warrens out of TES and Belcher and it deals with Empty the Warrens and Dread of Night out of ANT. Then it's another tool against Elves.

I've been discussing Cataclysm vs. Elves with Julian Knab and we agreed that Elves simply rebuilt quicker than D&T after a Cataclysm and that's if you're not dead before you even get to cast it.

I'm inclined to agree with this thinking about Cataclysm in the Elves matchup. Though I see you have 4 Flagstones in your recent version, presumably to maximize the effectiveness of Cataclysm, so this might slightly improve your ability to rebuild quickly.

I found that amount of Flagstones to be quite intriguing in its own right as well. I thought it might be a metagame decision because of the popularity of Miracles in your area (hence Cataclysm coming in often) or scarcity of decks with maindeck Blood Moon effects that could randomly punish you (like Painter). I've never played the deck with more than one flagstones, so I'm definitely curious if I should try more in Indy.

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Originally Posted by Bahra

Well Ratchet Bomb, Pithing Needle, Rest in Peace and Ethersworn Canonist does vastly different things. So I like having the Enlightened Tutor. It COULD be just another piece of graveyard hate and another piece of storm hate, but I think that having access to 3 copies of Ratchet Bomb vs. TES and Belcher is great. And I like having so many cards vs. graveyard decks and storm decks altogether. I think the fair match up is good enough that you want the enlightened tutor (that I am never bringing in against any fair decks).

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Fair enough, so when you playing against a fair deck like RUG Delver you bring in the 2 RIP but not the Tutor? How would you SB with your list against decks like RUG Delver and Shardless BUG?

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Originally Posted by cursecatcher

I'm inclined to agree with this thinking about Cataclysm in the Elves matchup. Though I see you have 4 Flagstones in your recent version, presumably to maximize the effectiveness of Cataclysm, so this might slightly improve your ability to rebuild quickly.

I found that amount of Flagstones to be quite intriguing in its own right as well. I thought it might be a metagame decision because of the popularity of Miracles in your area (hence Cataclysm coming in often) or scarcity of decks with maindeck Blood Moon effects that could randomly punish you (like Painter). I've never played the deck with more than one flagstones, so I'm definitely curious if I should try more in Indy.

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I second this question. With the possibility of blood moon and wasteland returning to the format, it seems maxing out on flagstones could possibly be problematic if they time things out correctly.

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Originally Posted by ryscott85

I second this question. With the possibility of blood moon and wasteland returning to the format, it seems maxing out on flagstones could possibly be problematic if they time things out correctly.

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If you're not able to fetch a Plains from a Flagstones they just Wasteland'd, you should have enough Plains already :P

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Originally Posted by planeswalkerzen

If you're not able to fetch a Plains from a Flagstones they just Wasteland'd, you should have enough Plains already :P

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I think he's concerned that you're running this land, someone wastes it in response to Cataclysm and you gain nothing, but have a shakier manabase in as moons come back in to the meta.