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Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist
I've been jamming/goldfishing this list and I really like it. It took a few practice games to find out where the tweaks needed to happen, and it is likely still not optimal (but I won't know that until after the 1K/real experience.)
2x Vantress Gargoyle
4x Phyrexian Dreadnought
4x Scroll of Fate
4x Brainstorm
4x Stifle
4x Daze
4x Force of Will
2x Dismember
2x Vapor Snag
2x Spell Snare
2x Spell Pierce
3x Standstill
1x Jace, the Mind Sculptor
4x Mishra’s Factory
4x Flooded Strand
3x Misty Rainforest
7x Island
4x Wasteland
Sideboard
2x Ratchet Bomb
2x Sower of Temptation
1x Misdirection
2x Blue Elemental Blast
2x Tormod’s Crypt/Surgical Extraction (not sure yet, leaning towards Crypt)
1x Narset, Parter of Veils
2x Echoing Truth
3x OPEN
Potential Cards for the open slots:
Crucible of Worlds
Pithing Needle
Dismember
Misdirection
Dispel
Vendilion Clique
Torpor Orb
I was on 3 Dismember, but I was flooding out on them. Same with Standstill at 4 copies, so I just jammed a maindeck Jace, which has been great. Gargoyle is fine as a 2-of; it helps to stabilize early against faster threats and can close games quickly once opponents have threshold.
A quick note about closing out games: I have noticed often it's a 1-2 turn swing. Often game wins come out of nowhere where I combine Dreagnought + Factory + 2/2 manifested card for lethal. I upped the countermagic count to the full 12 with a split of Pierce/Snare and I'm very happy with that.
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Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist
@crispymelee - Royal Scions doesn‘t seem like a great financial investment. First two abilities feel like a mode you‘d expect on a 1 mana charm. Not a PW that will succeed that well at diverting an opponent‘s attention, also a Pyroblast target. Chandra ToD is the perfect example of what UR wants, it‘s just a large mana investment. Perhaps a better comparison for Scions is simply “why isn‘t this just a Grim Lavamancer?“ You have more hits to get under your own Standstill, ability to shrink a Goyf, able to kill most things which would block a Delver. You‘ve already got Scroll to pseudo-loot away dead cards, then you‘ve Lavamancer to add in 2 points of burn (which is like giving Delver trample, if you‘re killing a potential blocker), and you are transmuting cards in yard into shock (which is like building your own Scion ult). I just don‘t see how tapping down for Scion adds anything you didn‘t already have (or have access to), and that‘s the difference with Chandra; immediate [count to 20 engine] value towards a game-winning ult. Opponents have to react immediately to a ‘value Vortex‘ [Chandra] when you‘re actively counting to 20, whereas Scions can largely be ignored.
My pre-Scroll UR lists always ran 4x Delver and 2x Lavaman, and the only thing you have to do to support that is have a basic mountain (which you‘d kinda need anyways if you were ever considering Scions). I think Lavamancer has also remained a much stronger choice than Gargoyle. When it comes to going big with UR, I don‘t like how much Hydroblast is in the format now (don‘t like idea of putting 4 mana into Chandra to die to 1 mana), so I‘d be looking at Karn. It‘s a fine maindeck choice (randomly hateful, Chalice killer, access to wish-Crypt/Coating/etc...) and goes into the same slots as extra copies of Scroll would.
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Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist
Couple of matches on stream for you guys to check out. First is Miracle control vs me (Dreadstill) second is BR reanimator
https://youtu.be/UeARgXexIgc
https://youtu.be/3JXl3s7IajA
https://youtu.be/fKkBN165jyc
https://youtu.be/hpUE0G6VoQ0
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Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist
3-0 today, 8 decks in room were Tezz+Antiquities War, Gobbos, Merfolk, UWr Mentor, 4c Delver, Bomberman, ANT, and manifest destiny.
R1 vs UWr Mentor (2-1): game 1 draw 4 Dreadnoughts, which was fairly comical. Game 2 my 2x Scoll wears opponent's interaction down until they're forced to play a Jace; this play results in a -14 life penalty putting the opponent at 1 and they concede. Game 3 the opponent buckles under the weight of Cursed Scroll early and Scroll of Fate + Mastery later; they ran out of gas after about their 8th removal. Both games 2 and 3 were won against on-board Teferi. Their deck had zero Counterbalance so this isn't an unexpected result.
R2 vs Tezz (2-1): game 1 they have Chalice but it runs into FoW, I make a turn 2 Dreadnought and FoN their E-Bridge. Game 2 they resolve Chalice on 1 and I can't draw anything relevant (have something like 10 live draws possible). Game 3 they don't have Chalice in their opener (or they just lacked a sol land) and they respond to turn 2 Nought with a Strix; this runs into Plow and game ends.
R3 vs Bomberman (2-1): game 1 their Chalice is hit by FoW and they die to turn 2 Nought. Game 2 their turn 1 Chalice x=1 buys some time but it's the second Chalice x=3 that buys them enough time; they had to go for a desperation Karn -> Lattice against Factory beats but even with Standstill I can't draw a single FoW (if Lattice died on the stack, so would they). Game 3 has an interesting opening where opponent is able to get down C. Priest and Salvagers, and draw about 5 cards off Bauble recursion before my turn 2 Ratchet takes care of it. After a StP on CP the Factory and Scroll beats begin and even though they find Auriok #2, it runs into a Humility. Their first 3x Karns were countered and the 4th came too late for them (unable to tap Tomb).
All 3 matches were lost die rolls and there were 2x mull to 6 and 1x mull to 5 today. Strange sets of hands where I actually had reasons to FoW turn 0 Chalices and saw only 1x Teferi today.
@Rood that was some loose Fetching by miracles not scrambling for Plains when they had the chance. Also the whole Fetch a Dual with the Vista. :laugh: Also siiiiiick FoN pitch FoW vs BR. :cool: Only things I saw were missed Standstill trigger vs miracles g2 and against BR game 3 I think it was worth considering leaving 3x Grisel in deck after Surgical given the board state. How many Scroll were you on today?
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Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Rood
Great games! Finding the aggressive line against reanimator g2 was really cool. Miracles player got a tundra off Vista...tsk tsk tsk. Was he cheating or was that an honest mistake?
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Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Mr. Safety
Great games! Finding the aggressive line against reanimator g2 was really cool. Miracles player got a tundra off Vista...tsk tsk tsk. Was he cheating or was that an honest mistake?
Wasteland corrected the error anyhow, based on their 2 Strand punt in an earlier game (failing to understand Stifle) it was likely an honest mistake. Note that Counterbalance reinforces poor play b/c it bails players out of savage punts rather than handing them out well-deserved losses (from which they could learn to improve).
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Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Mr. Safety
Great games! Finding the aggressive line against reanimator g2 was really cool. Miracles player got a tundra off Vista...tsk tsk tsk. Was he cheating or was that an honest mistake?
I know Dean he’s a good dude. Honest mistake. Couple more videos going up (Total of 4)
My matches definitely showcase Standstills power as to why I think its irreplacable in the deck.
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Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Rood
Absolute gold, looking forward to reviewing these.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Fox
3-0 today, 8 decks in room were Tezz+Antiquities War, Gobbos, Merfolk, UWr Mentor, 4c Delver, Bomberman, ANT, and manifest destiny.
/snip breakdown
Congrats on the result! Cursed Scroll is neat; is that mostly for some extra reach in UW since we lack the direct damage R traditionally provides?
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Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist
Quote:
Originally Posted by
crispymelee
Congrats on the result! Cursed Scroll is neat; is that mostly for some extra reach in UW since we lack the direct damage R traditionally provides?
Cursed Scroll gets rid of annoyances like Mother of Runes + Revoker and any flash ambushers vs Factory (or trying to be fancy with C. Priest). It also Trolls walkers and pressures life totals. Decks that sit back and do nothing are quite easily able to kill Dreadnoughts, but they are quite poorly equipped to deal with non-stop Cursed Scroll pressure, especially if you combo it with a stream of 2/2s from Scroll of Fate maintaining low hand size. Also important to point out that Teferi + Scroll insta-kills enemy Mentor.
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Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist
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Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Rood
I know Dean he’s a good dude. Honest mistake. Couple more videos going up (Total of 4)
My matches definitely showcase Standstills power as to why I think its irreplacable in the deck.
I've watched 3/4 of the videos so far and I have to agree, Standstill seemed AMAZING. One thing I did notice was that Delver quite often had a hard time flipping; I've noticed that in my games as well. What are your thoughts on Delver?
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Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Mr. Safety
One thing I did notice was that Delver quite often had a hard time flipping; I've noticed that in my games as well.
The deck lists about as many instants than a typical Delver list, but has only half its cantrips. If flipping Delver was an actual issue, I would look at replacing a Spell Snare and a Scroll of Fate for 2 copies of Ponder.
About the deck itself, I think it's pretty good to give it some exposure with what ELD uploads on YouTube. Having watched some of them where the deck is showcased, I think you (Rood?) had a number of those wins thanks to clueless opponents. Which is why I only play "rogue" decks anyway I suppose :-)
Here is what I will sleeve next when I receive my Brazen Borrower and Magmatic Sinkhole:
4 Island
4 Mishra's Factory
1 Mountain
2 Prismatic Vista
4 Scalding Tarn
1 Volcanic Island
4 Wasteland
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Delver of Secrets
2 Force of Negation
4 Force of Will
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Phyrexian Dreadnought
2 Scroll of Fate
2 Spell Pierce
4 Standstill
4 Stifle
2 True-Name Nemesis
Sideboard:
2 Abrade
2 Brazen Borrower // Petty Theft
2 Dismember
1 Flusterstorm
1 Magmatic Sinkhole
2 Misdirection
1 Pyroblast
2 Red Elemental Blast
2 Surgical Extraction
Here's the link where I'll keep the up to date 75: https://deckbox.org/sets/2494824
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Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist
I don't think anyone at Rood's gamestore gets to blame rogue deck against Dreadstill. :tongue:
Your colored land count isn't high enough @AngryBacon, it's 2 fewer colored lands than Delver and you're playing a basic Mountain. You can maybe get away with 13 colored sources, but that's the first land total at which I'd consider basic Mountain over Volc (also swapping out Vista to U Fetch). The more color-unstable your manabase is, the more you need to be able to play colorless hands (increase Scroll amount).
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Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist
I have actually cut TNN from my list for more copies of Scroll of fate... but its fine i guess to 2/2 split. These videos were right before commander 2019. I outplayed a few of my opponents in the matches.. but thats half the battle in magic. People at my store definitely know Dreadstill and what im on.
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Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Rood
I outplayed a few of my opponents in the matches.. but thats half the battle in magic. People at my store definitely know Dreadstill and what im on.
Reminds me of when Tom Ross was just wrecking people while he was jamming Infect all the time. He was just so good at executing his plan, even through people knowing exactly what his plan was. Which is probably part of the plan, using your opponent's plan against them.
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Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Fox
Your colored land count isn't high enough @AngryBacon, it's 2 fewer colored lands than Delver and you're playing a basic Mountain. You can maybe get away with 13 colored sources, but that's the first land total at which I'd consider basic Mountain over Volc (also swapping out Vista to U Fetch).
Yeah, this is what I think as well, but haven't had issues when testing so I got greedy and included the 4 Wasteland as a test I suppose. The Mountain should be a Volcanic Island, but there are a lot of Wasteland and Assassin's Trophy where I play so will see with proper testing.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Fox
The more color-unstable your manabase is, the more you need to be able to play colorless hands (increase Scroll amount).
Do you mean less TNN and more Scroll of Fate?
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Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist
@AngryBacon Yes Scroll would be easier to cast than TNN [i.e. good substitution given same cmc].
@H the skillsets are somewhat similar to Infect. I think Infect plays a bit closer to Depths. Outside of the Stifle/Daze/Wasteland randomly occurring states [where we have ~2+ land advantage] we don‘t really pick spots to ‘go for it‘ based on opponents‘ turn 2-3 land drop/untapped mana states. Playing Dreadnought is more positionally used for something like duress‘ing removal away from a Delver (this also serves to drain their mana into our next line of play, ideally Standstill). If they fail to answer “duress-Noughts“ then they just die, but the purpose was always to drag them into a subgame of magic where normal legacy rules don‘t work as damage is piling up.
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Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Fox
@H the skillsets are somewhat similar to Infect. I think Infect plays a bit closer to Depths. Outside of the Stifle/Daze/Wasteland randomly occurring states [where we have ~2+ land advantage] we don‘t really pick spots to ‘go for it‘ based on opponents‘ turn 2-3 land drop/untapped mana states. Playing Dreadnought is more positionally used for something like duress‘ing removal away from a Delver (this also serves to drain their mana into our next line of play, ideally Standstill). If they fail to answer “duress-Noughts“ then they just die, but the purpose was always to drag them into a subgame of magic where normal legacy rules don‘t work as damage is piling up.
Well, I didn't really mean that Infect and Dreastill are comparable decks, per se, only that your opponent knowing what you are on might not help them when you are a skilled pilot. In fact, it could be just the opposite. Ross' opponents knowing he was on Infect might have helped him and Rood's opponents knowing he is on Dreadnaught might help him too, because they are both so skilled at executing their plan or get the game to states where they can execute their plan far better than their opponent can execute theirs.
Depths operates a similar way, but I was more talking about playstyle rather than actual deck choice.
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Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist
@Rood Sorry if this was answered already, thread is getting long and not exactly search-friendly ^^ Just re-watched some older game https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PbLOqEGTNm0. Any particular reason you didn't turned FiDo face up in G1? You Manifest it around 2 minutes in.
On the subject of practicality, have you all considered a Discord server? I for one think 2 different mediums are more useful and spread to more people, if you want to welcome more people that is. I find direct message easier to manage and to tidy than a 200+ pages forum :-)
On an unrelated note, if some of you are still playing with white, have you thought about Hushbringer?
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Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist
Quote:
Originally Posted by
AngryBacon
@Rood Sorry if this was answered already, thread is getting long and not exactly search-friendly ^^ Just re-watched some older game
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PbLOqEGTNm0. Any particular reason you didn't turned FiDo face up in G1? You Manifest it around 2 minutes in.
On the subject of practicality, have you all considered a Discord server? I for one think 2 different mediums are more useful and spread to more people, if you want to welcome more people that is. I find direct message easier to manage and to tidy than a 200+ pages forum :-)
On an unrelated note, if some of you are still playing with white, have you thought about Hushbringer?
@ discord:
Call me old, but I just prefer the forum format:
+ information is tracked over time and is "stationary"; you can literally witness this deck's evolution through the years
+ posts can cover multiple responses and link to older material.
That being said, I do have a discord and have tried out a couple different Legacy servers. My issues:
- responses can be very quickly buried into irrelevance.
- searching for specific things feels very difficult (could just be a user issue, I'm new to discord)
- while I'm not aware of any size limit on a discord post, posts relating to legitimate discussion "feel" shorter to me. This has been true in discord groups I've tried for other games I'm active in such as Street Fighter and Smash.
I have no issues with lots of text that detail interactions or lines of play and I enjoy comprehensive answers behind certain lines of play or card selections. I feel like it makes me and other readers of the thread better players.
@ Hushbringer: Someone (Fox?) highlighted it's potential use (and atrocious art) when it was spoiled a few pages ago. Not sure if anyone's actively tested Hush, but Scroll of Fate seems to have become the enabler of choice for cheating in Noughts. My gut reaction is that I could see it being run out of the side as hate versus decks that are heavily reliant on triggers (ala Ichorid), as opposed to enabling our 12/12s. I think I'd rather see Vision Charm or Trickbind in my UW list before Hush.
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Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist
Quote:
Originally Posted by
crispymelee
+ information is tracked over time and is "stationary"; you can literally witness this deck's evolution through the years
- while I'm not aware of any size limit on a discord post, posts relating to legitimate discussion "feel" shorter to me.
The exact same content can be provided on something like Discord. Except you would pin a post or posts and if content is more easily contributed to that way, with a Google Document or similar for reports and an actual primer. That post could very well link directly here actually. Discord is also much more accessible and available than mtgthesource.com (eg. no HTTPS here, not mobile-friendly, mentioning people is actually difficult, so is linking cards).
Though Discord is not exaclty meant to hold long posts like you mentioned, but rather links to a more adapted support eg. spreadsheets for data and statistics, plain documents for reports.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
crispymelee
+ posts can cover multiple responses and link to older material.
- responses can be very quickly buried into irrelevance.
Yeah this can be an issue when no policing. Though across all IM tools I've been using both for hobbies and work, the rooms are supposedly self-corrected and on-topic trumps all off-topic. It gets pretty easy to keep relevant information easy to find when channels are created and reserved accordingly.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
crispymelee
searching for specific things feels very difficult (could just be a user issue, I'm new to discord)
Yeah could be, I find it much easier to search on Discord myself ^^ Keywords do help when searching for instance.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
crispymelee
I have no issues with lots of text that detail interactions or lines of play and I enjoy comprehensive answers behind certain lines of play or card selections. I feel like it makes me and other readers of the thread better players.
Wall of texts are fine, especially when the author takes the time to properly indent or present with the rich text available here :-) I wasn't exactly offering Discord as a way of replacing the work done here. But more as a complementary way of contributing, more approchable possibly. Easier to find help etc.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
crispymelee
@ Hushbringer: Someone (Fox?) highlighted it's potential use (and atrocious art) when it was spoiled a few pages ago. Not sure if anyone's actively tested Hush, but Scroll of Fate seems to have become the enabler of choice for cheating in Noughts. My gut reaction is that I could see it being run out of the side as hate versus decks that are heavily reliant on triggers (ala Ichorid), as opposed to enabling our 12/12s. I think I'd rather see Vision Charm or Trickbind in my UW list before Hush.
I was thinking about it because outside Ichorid there are much more popular ETB triggers where I play eg. Flickerwisp, SFM, Snapcaster Mage mainly. The first 2 are brutal against us. But other candidates might be more suited, because they are blue for instance, help flip Delvers, or simply more versatile.
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Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist
Quote:
Originally Posted by
AngryBacon
@Rood Sorry if this was answered already, thread is getting long and not exactly search-friendly ^^ Just re-watched some older game
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PbLOqEGTNm0. Any particular reason you didn't turned FiDo face up in G1? You Manifest it around 2 minutes in.
On the subject of practicality, have you all considered a Discord server? I for one think 2 different mediums are more useful and spread to more people, if you want to welcome more people that is. I find direct message easier to manage and to tidy than a 200+ pages forum :-)
On an unrelated note, if some of you are still playing with white, have you thought about Hushbringer?
I think I was trying to prevent a K command blowout. I figured he had snap or k command and i had no answer
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Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist
Hushbringer isn't very good as it offers opponents windows of interaction. Before Scroll my deck used Tocatli and that was only b/c I had 1x Aether Vial (and E-Tutors) to create the uninteractive window that Scroll more easily replicates. If Hushbringer were hexproof (or a noncreature enchantment) I would have considered it, but even in the board it's worse than Torpor Orb (Karn wish target). I would rate Hushbringer under Jeskai Infiltrator in terms of positively advancing the engine in a reasonably reliable way. The other issue with Torpor Orb effects, in the maindeck, is that in a small subset of matches it enables opponents to steal Dreadnoughts from our top of deck [Helm] and graveyard [Reanimate].
What we're really waiting to see is a not-creature Torpor Orb that nullifies triggers from creature ETB + casting spell triggers + creature abilities cannot be activated. The leaving the battlefield trigger prevention doesn't really matter. Alternatively a Torpor Orb land would also be acceptable.
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Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist
Quote:
Originally Posted by
AngryBacon
/snip discord advantages
If you have a server that you could PM me the link to, I'd be more than happy to join. :) It's more a question of familiarity and nostalgia that I stick with forums and I don't see myself stopping from using the Source. It's definitely a callback to the dark days of places like MTG Salvation and SmashBoards.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
AngryBacon
I was thinking about it because outside Ichorid there are much more popular ETB triggers where I play eg. Flickerwisp, SFM, Snapcaster Mage mainly. The first 2 are brutal against us. But other candidates might be more suited, because they are blue for instance, help flip Delvers, or simply more versatile.
I think if we wanted something maindeck to stop those shenanigans, Torpor Orb is probably still the go to, being the "hardest" to remove. I'm sure more experienced pilots have better answers though.
EDIT: Fox covered it already. The other things that stop ETBs are creatures, exclusively W:
Hushbringer
Hushwing Gryff
Tocatli Honor Guard
or costly: Humility
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Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist
2-2 at the local tonight. Don't know exact attendance, but close to 25 people I think. Ran the same list that I did two weeks ago.
Round 1 vs UW Stoneblade (W, 2-1):
G1: On the play, we both mull to 6. Though he StP's my early Nought, a flood of 2/2s and an accompanying SCM is too much to handle, and his SFMs eat my own StP's.
+1 Pithing Needle, +1 ETutor. -1 Supreme Verdict, -1 Standstill [i](in hindsight should have added Ashiok, maybe for one of the Small Teferis)
G2: An absurd game. Early turns are land -> go, until we get into a counter war over my small Teferi. He wins out on the back of Flusterstorm, and is eventually able to control the game. He manages to stick TNN and it wields both Batterskull and Jitte, and I scoop.
G3: An early Nought once again proves to be the deciding factor, forcing an early FoW out of him. He has no counter for the Scroll, and I ride the 12/12 to victory.
Round 2 vs Mystic Forge Combo (?) (L, 0-2):
A match where knowledge was sorely lacking; I literally had never even heard of this. I lose G1, despite forcing him to break 3 Standstills. I can't find Karn to shut off his artifacts, and he's eventually able to pump out Karn first, fetching Lattice to lock me out.
+1 Pithing Needle, +1 Etutor, +2 Flusterstorm +1 EE. -2 Standstill, -2 Supreme Verdict, -1 StP [i](given all the moxes and mana ramp I saw, I thought I was playing against some kind of Storm Combo. I was very mistaken, and Grafdiggers Cage, no Flusterstorms, would have been far better).
G2: There's is an early attempt to set Chalice @ 1 that I'm able to snare, and Wasteland takes care of one of his Sol Lands. He's stuck on mana for awhile, but I can't find anything to pressure with him with; no Karn, no Teferi's, no sideboarded cards. Eventually he's able to stick Mystic Forge and find the cards he needs behind a resolved Defense Grid.
Round 3 vs Imperial Painter (W 2-1)
G1: I'm on the play, and he answers my land -> go leads with Goblin Welder. I stick a T2 Nought. My attempt to counter his Blood Moon on T3 eats a REB (!). I get in once with Nought, but I have no answer for his Karn -> Ensnaring Bridge. We play land -> go for awhile, and no Factories or Scrolls show up. He's able to assemble Painter and Grindstone, and I'm done for.
+1 Needle, +1 EE, +1 ETutor, -1 Standstill, -1 Verdict, -1 Spell Snare
G2: On the play once again, and it goes similarly to G1. My early Nought is stopped cold by Bridge, but this time, I'm able to find Scroll and pump out 2/2's that are able to walk over it.
G3: A wild game. I keep a hand with no counters but two StPs. I thought I baited out enough REBs from him to safely "hardcast" Nought, but he had another REB for the Stifle. He gets stuck on 2 lands, and his Welder does a whopping 9 damage to me, before I finally find an EE the turn he drops a second one. They both get blown away and when he tries to drop Painter, I'm ready for it with StP. He sneaks in Grindstone after I stick a Scroll, but can't keep Painter alive long enough to activate it. Once again, a beatdown of Bears takes the day.
Round 4 vs DOOMSDAY Combo (!!!) (L, 1-2)
Another matchup where I just didn't know what I was playing around. Long story short, he grinds out enough counters (via Liliana, JVP) to safely stick Doomsday in both of his wins. This was a deck I'd only heard about, but just never expected to face. Ever.
+ Scroll is awesome
+ flipping 12/12s off of Manifest is awesome
+ Watching opponents sweat over which Manifest to remove is hilarious
+ Finding a place to play Legacy <20 minutes away
+ Legacy weirdness. Doomsday and Mystic Forge in one night is hilarious.
+ Paper Legacy
- I need to use Ashiok more. I've always taken searching the library as a given, and I keep forgetting she turns off SO MUCH.
- Play mistakes. Today I felt I played better, but little mistakes eventually ended up being extremely costly (forgetting Batterskull has vigilance, forgetting PW abilities can be Stifled)
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Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist
Quote:
Originally Posted by
crispymelee
If you have a server that you could PM me the link to, I'd be more than happy to join. :) It's more a question of familiarity and nostalgia that I stick with forums and I don't see myself stopping from using the Source. It's definitely a callback to the dark days of places like MTG Salvation and SmashBoards.
I didn't create any server no, that privilege would be yours plural. I can definitely agree that familiarity is an argument though ;-) My job makes me value practicality and progress a little more I suppose ^^.
About Hushbringer, Torpor Orb is also fine. But Deafening Silence isn't automatically better than Ethersworn Canonist in Death and Taxes for instance. Because of the clock it provides. If I were playing white, I'd at least split between the 2 if I had the room for them plural. Hushbringer forces you to play around Massacre though, which is added stress.
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Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist
Quote:
Originally Posted by
crispymelee
Round 3 vs Imperial Painter (W 2-1)
+1 Needle, +1 EE, +1 ETutor, -1 Standstill, -1 Verdict, -1 Spell Snare
I wouldn't side out Spell Snare, it stops Goblin Engineer, Painter's Servant, Goblin Cratermaker, Ethersworn Canonist and the copter as well if they play it.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
crispymelee
Round 4 vs DOOMSDAY Combo (!!!) (L, 1-2)
Another matchup where I just didn't know what I was playing around. Long story short, he grinds out enough counters (via Liliana, JVP) to safely stick Doomsday in both of his wins. This was a deck I'd only heard about, but just never expected to face. Ever.
From what you say (Liliana, Jace) it doesn't look like a typical list but more of a slower approach. Closer to how it used to be long ago. Now the better list is UBR with Experimental Frenzy with either Tendrils of Agony or Jace, Wielder of Mysteries. If you look at my post history you might find a (very old and janky) Doomstill list ;-) But if you want more information on the deck and how to play it/against it, I can provide a link to the Doomsday Discord.
With your list I think I would have sided in
+1 Ashiok, Dream Render (stops fetchlands, prevents Doomsday from searching the library, prevents Doomsday to reuse cards that may have been played pre-combo)
+1 Engineered Explosives (handles his anti-hate and goblins if they play Empty the Warrens)
+1 Enlightened Tutor
+1 Ethersworn Canonist
+2 Flusterstorm (for the discard mostly)
-2 Supreme Verdict
-4 Swords to Plowshares
I'm also assuming they don't win off Tasigur or Laboratory Maniac.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
crispymelee
- I need to use Ashiok more. I've always taken searching the library as a given, and I keep forgetting she turns off SO MUCH.
It also stops Doomsday ;-)
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Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist
Against Stoneblade, Needle isn't really a card your deck needs to bring in. I think I'd be fine with just 1x Ashiok in (wiping their yard is usually necessary). Definitely would not cut any Teferi vs them, as you need option to knock out walkers with Factory & EoT Scroll activations; also need to be able to put them on sorcery speed C. Priests.
When you say Mystic Forge combo you do mean the turbo deck with Monolith + Voltaic Key, and no wincons in the deck right? Assuming it is, I like the boarding after you correct the Flusters. Leaving in an amount of Plow is fine (maybe 2). Their deck should pretty much die on the spot to Dreadnought early, and completely locked out by a Karn; sounds like you got unlucky.
Boarding looks fine vs Painter, but Ashiok should come in here as well to stop all the graveyard stuff. Your matchup vs DDFT should be pretty amazing (+2 Fluster, +1 Ashiok, +1 Cage, +1 E Tutor, +1 Canonist, +1 EE. -1 Verdict, -2 Plow, -2 Scroll, -1 Snare, and -1 other cut). Keeping in a few Plow in case of Xantid/LabMan seems fine, also give you access to gain 12 response to Tendrils.
Lots of good matchups for you today, 3/4 opponents' decks playing loses to Karn tribal (on top of being weak to Nought).
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Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist
I'm debating a Narset, Parter of Veils in my 75. Does anyone have any experience for how good she is? (Disclaimer: I'm on mono-blue.)
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Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Fox
Your matchup vs DDFT should be pretty amazing (+2 Fluster, +1 Ashiok, +1 Cage, +1 E Tutor, +1 Canonist, +1 EE. -1 Verdict, -2 Plow, -2 Scroll, -1 Snare, and -1 other cut). Keeping in a few Plow in case of Xantid/LabMan seems fine, also give you access to gain 12 response to Tendrils.
That's the thing, I don't think that's DDFT nor DDEF. Cage will only be useful against Experimental Frenzy. Difficult to know without their list I suppose. Spell Snare hits Burning Wish, Wishclaw Talisman, Lim-Dul's Vault depending on the version but also the removal they might side against your hate.
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Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist
Eh, you can leave in Snare but you’ve already got 12 counters DDFT has to get through (and then the SCMs his build plays). If they’re not on Frenzy, then you’d want Snare over Cage yes.
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Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist
Thanks everyone (Bacon, Fox) for the feedback. Yea, I feel like I missed a golden opportunity to at least go 3-1 at a meta where I had 0 clue what to expect.
@ Fox: It was the turbo variant. I always try to avoid saying "bad luck" since it gets me away from more practical thinking like, "what should I have countered instead?"...but yea, it was awful luck :laugh:
@ DD: He won both games off of Shelldock resolving a Jace, Wielder of Mysteries. G1 he caught me with my pants down not having a counter for Doomsday. G2, was an interesting end. He managed to play around a Standstill with only two cards left in his library, while I couldn't find anything to break my own Standstill with.
These L's hurt, but it's also teaching me a lot about how to pilot the UW variant. I'm starting to see that when games go long or draws are "unlucky", something like Azcanta seriously reduces variance and finds answers. Next week, I'll probably cut the Mana Leak for Azcanta (even though it shined once again this week), and get a Serenity in the sideboard.
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Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist
Good work Crispy. Doomsday combo you absolutely must counter DD. Shelldock Isle save wasteland for. @ Safety Narset is sweet. Try her out as a 1 of MD
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Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Rood
Good work Crispy. Doomsday combo you absolutely must counter DD. Shelldock Isle save wasteland for. @ Safety Narset is sweet. Try her out as a 1 of MD
Cool, thanks. Matchups where it seems to shine are Miracles, Grixis/4C/pile control. Where to cut? The below list is 61 cards.
2x Vantress Gargoyle
4x Phyrexian Dreadnought
4x Scroll of Fate
4x Brainstorm
4x Stifle
4x Daze
4x Force of Will
2x Dismember
2x Vapor Snag
2x Spell Snare
2x Spell Pierce
4x Standstill
1x Narset, Parter of Veils
4x Flooded Strand
3x Misty Rainforest
7x Island
4x Wasteland
4x Mishra’s Factory
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Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Mr. Safety
Cool, thanks. Matchups where it seems to shine are Miracles, Grixis/4C/pile control. Where to cut? The below list is 61 cards.
2x Vantress Gargoyle
4x Phyrexian Dreadnought
4x Scroll of Fate
4x Brainstorm
4x Stifle
4x Daze
4x Force of Will
2x Dismember
2x Vapor Snag
2x Spell Snare
2x Spell Pierce
4x Standstill
1x Narset, Parter of Veils
4x Flooded Strand
3x Misty Rainforest
7x Island
4x Wasteland
4x Mishra’s Factory
Is Gargoyle any good without Vision Charm?? Feel like it may be a stretch to turn him on. Delver might be better could shave an Island or snag.
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Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Rood
Is Gargoyle any good without Vision Charm?? Feel like it may be a stretch to turn him on. Delver might be better
It sometimes takes a couple turns to make him active against some decks. Others, like RUG Delver for example, hit threshold on their own pretty quickly. That's why I cut down to 2 copies. You're echoing a thought that has been rattling around in my head for weeks though: it's probably wrong to cut Delver in any version of Dreadstill, even mono-blue, until a better option comes along.
Delver list:
4x Delver of Secrets
4x Phyrexian Dreadnought
4x Scroll of Fate
4x Brainstorm
4x Stifle
4x Daze
4x Force of Will
2x Dismember
2x Vapor Snag
2x Spell Snare
1x Spell Pierce
4x Standstill
4x Flooded Strand
3x Misty Rainforest
6x Island
4x Wasteland
4x Mishra’s Factory
I cut the Gargoyles and shaved a Pierce and an Island (21 lands) to get the 4 delvers in there. There's 23 cards in there to flip Delver, which feels low. I want to cut a Standstill for a Ponder, but I saw how good they were in your test games!
Edit: I could cut a Scroll as well for the Ponder. I feel like it has to be a non-instant/sorcery card to help flip Delver naturally.
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Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist
Thats pretty close to what im on but with lightning bolts and no 21 land or narset. I have Leylines in the board RN cuz there’s 4 Hogaak at my local meta.
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Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist
That's what I'll plan on using then, it seems solid.
Now while I have your attention...what do you think of this spicy curry?
4x Phyrexian Dreadnought
4x Scroll of Fate
4x Brainstorm
4x Stifle
4x Force of Will
2x Spell Snare
2x Spell Pierce
4x Standstill
4x Expedition Map
3x Dismember
4x Thespian’s Stage
4x Dark Depths
4x Flooded Strand
3x Misty Rainforest
7x Island
3x Wasteland
This deck can make a 20/20 while under a Standstill and still play a disruptive game plan. It foregoes Delver for Expedition Map, cuts Dazes (can't afford to get behind in land drops) and does a pretty good impression of Dreadstill. Why bother with a 3/2 flyer when you can have a 20/20 flyer?
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Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Mr. Safety
Expedition Map
Isn't Tolaria West more flexible, while it also works under Standstill and is uncounterable? Could also find Engineered Explosives or other X spells.
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Re: [Deck] Dreadstill - Enter the Fist
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Mr. Safety
No. You’re all over the place. Stuffing that package in doesn’t seem good.
