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Has anyone tested against the UG madness deck with Vengevines? I've played around seven games and it's been giving me troubles. I've found Wastelands on their Tropicals and removing any Hierarchs can be pretty devastating, but that doesn't happen often.
I've played against it, the hands without Survival are unremarkable and the hands with Surivval are often able to be Trapped or Extirpated. Humility is pretty good here. The deck is designed to give control decks a fight but I've done well at sealing games against them.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shawn
Played another 78 people tournament today, finishing on 8th place with 5-2.
Short matchup overview:
R1: 2-0 vs Sneakattack/Show and Tell.dec
R2: 2-0 vs Merfolk
R3: 0-2 vs ANT
R4: 2-1 vs Enchantress
R5: 2-0 vs Zoo
R6: 2-0 vs GBW Loam
R7: 0-2 vs UW Fish
Played UWb again, same list as usual.
Congratz! Was there No Top8 cut?Quote:
Originally Posted by Felidae
What went wrong in the matchups you lost?
In my testing Ive noticed that Relic is enough to keep them in check. Thats with UGw Tempo though. My results are probobly scewed.Quote:
Originally Posted by Master Shake
In all the testing I've done against survival it usually comes down to wasting a colored source and sticking a win condition before they can resolve survival. Also, they have no main deck answer to humility so g1 its all about resolving humility and games 2-3 are more about sticking a relic and boarding in a million stp effects that they have no answer to.Quote:
Originally Posted by Shawn
Good to be back in the landstill thread. Its been too long.
Nope, in Iserlohn (Germany), there are usualy no Top8 playoffs, at least not for Legacy.Quote:
Originally Posted by RogueMTG
Against ANT I lost the first game as he had triple Chant Game1. Game 2 I kept a hand with 2 SpellSnares, 1 Negate, 1 Brainstorm, 1 MeddlingMage, 1Tundra and 1 Wasteland, naturally I got stucked on these lands while he got Xantid Swarm online (I got 5 Swords in the deck but it was to late, meh).
Against UW Fish I missed the Force for his turn 1 Vial and his 2nd turn Standstill allready forced me in an awkard board position. Spellstutter Sprite and Jotun Grunt beat me to death. As usual I boarded 2 Preachers and 2 Vindicates, but unfortunately he didn't sided out his Swords. Well the guy 7-0ed the tournament so it's allright.
Sorry, but what is vindicate exactly for here??Quote:
Originally Posted by Felidae
I would assume Planeswalkers and anything that is out of reach of Engineered Explosives...Quote:
Originally Posted by GoldenCid
Tournament in Ghent, Belgium
28 people
3-1-1
2-0 Madness/survival
2-0 Enchantress
1-2 Merfolk
2-1 WG something with flickerwisp, mangara, karakas, stoneforge mystic and other shenanigans
ID
Quartefinals lost to UGr tempo ***** (both games never saw an extra land after my opening hand while he got stifle/waste and his single crucible online)
More or less the same list as Felidae. I went to 3 vindicate SB because I expexted quite some planeswalkers (saw none) but they were useful nonetheless.
Planeswalkers, additional spot removal, Lands, any kind of random Enchantment or Artifact, the list goes on and on. I played UWr befor, but I had the feeling that I lose an edge against other controle decks, especially if they aren't blue based (so that REB is entirely pointless).Quote:
Originally Posted by GoldenCid
I sided them in 5 times in the tour so they deserve the spot in my eyes.
The meta in Iserlohn is somehow very random, so an answer against everything seems ok for me.
Hey guys I usually don't post much on the source but I'm really liking my current decklist and thought I'd get some opinions. I'm working in both red and black splashes so that I can take advantage of the black wish targets while having spouts available against tribes and zoo. I also really like having EE at 4. Landstill, WalkerControl, and Jace control type decks are strong right now and between seeing them more on MWS and seeing them put up good results I think the ability to hit walkers is extremely strong.
Total- 60
Win Cons- 8 (4)
2 x Elspeth, Knight-Errant
2 x Decree
(3 x Mishra’s Factory)
(1 x Jace)
Permission- 9
4 x Force of Will
3 x Counterspell
2 x Spell Snare
Draw- 8
4 x Brainstorm
3 x Standstill
1 x Fact or Fiction
Removal- 11
4 x Swords to Plowshares
1 x Path to Exile
3 x Engineered Explosives
2 x Wrath of God
1 x Humility
Utility- 4
2 x Cunning Wish
1 x Jace MS
1 x Crucible
Lands- 24
4 x Flooded Strand
1 x Polluted Delta
1 x Arid Mesa
4 x Tundra
1 x Underground Sea
1 x Scrubland
1 x Volcanic Island
1 x Plateau
2 x Islands
2 x Plains
3 x Mishra’s Factory
3 x Wasteland
Sideboard- 15
3 x Negate
3 x Relic
1 x Path
1 x Diabolic Edict
1 x Enlightened Tutor
1 x Extirpate
1 x Fracturing Gust
1 x Pulse of the Fields
3 x Firsespout
Was referred to a solid Landstill list that took top 8 at GenCon. This is a very old-school landstill list: Scepters, Fire//Ice and Crucibles. It might be outdated in terms of the development of landstill over the years but I think it is worth discussing and reconsidering. I personally played Landstill during the period of Elspeth coming in and never really considered giving Scepters a shot since in paper they seem horrible, however I was testing with the list yesterday (some modified changes explained below) and I must say Scepter has impressed me. I'll present his list first.
John Knapp - ScepterChant Landstill 5th Place
4 Force of Will
4 Standstill
4 Counterspell
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Brainstorm
3 Engineered Explosives
2 Orim’s Chant
2 Isochron Scepter
2 Fire/Ice
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
2 Crucible of Worlds
1 Path to Exile 4 Flooded Strand
4 Mishra’s Factory
2 Faerie Conclave
2 Polluted Delta
3 Wasteland
3 Tundra
2 Volcanic Island
1 Island
1 Plains
1 Academy Ruins
1 Tolaria West
Sideboard:
4 Meddling Mage
3 Descendant of Kiyomaro (this card is really interesting, RWM without having to go tri-color!)
2 Blue Elemental Blast
3 Red Elemental Blast
3 Tormod’s Crypt
My list:
4 Force of Will
4 Standstill
4 Counterspell
4 Swords to Plowshares
4 Brainstorm
3 Engineered Explosives
2 Cunning Wish
2 Isochron Scepter
3 Fire/Ice
2 Humility
2 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
4 Flooded Strand
4 Mishra’s Factory
2 Polluted Delta
3 Wasteland
4 Tundra
2 Volcanic Island
2 Island
2 Plains
1 Academy Ruins
Sideboard:
4 Meddling Mage
3 Red Elemental Blast
2 Tormod’s Crypt
1 Ravenous Trap
1 Mind Break Trap
1 Orim's Chant
1 Pulse of the Field
1 Dismantling Blow
1 Path to Exile
Things to discuss (from my point of view) about his list v.s. mine.
- 2 Chants MD:
As much as I know the power of ScepterChant combo, I feel that his list was not focused solely on it, therefore 2 Chants in the MD seems very weak if you just drew Chant without scepter. I instead feel that the 2 Chants could be 2 Cunning Wish, which gives you the ability to fetch any targets (potentially a Chant or other things to imprint on).
- 2 Crucible of Worlds:
This card is great in Landstill, and it is old tech. I've tested it and I was happy with it, but at the same time I feel that its power level is still not worth the inclusion. It definitely ensures hitting that 4th land drop against Wastelands or in general by recracking fetches but I feel that other cards e.g. Humility which I had swapped in place of Crucible, gives a more game-breaking gamestate.
-3 Descendant of Kiyomaro:
Solid card and a tech I've never seen, however, I'm not too comfortable with the idea of playing creatures against Zoo/Goblins (I see why you would bring this in against them) since they make their creature removal more effective. Could be wasted slots as a result
I might cut the wishes and go with a straightforward maindeck, but as far as testing, Scepter has been pretty strong. ScepterChant is awesome but I think that any instant on a Scepter is in general powerful in this deck. Counterspell on scepter can be brutal, Swords on Scepter can stall the game a little, Fire//Ice on Scepter makes you dig faster into a win-condition. I've never given scepter a chance, but so far it's been showing some good results.
Zoo: 3-1
Aggro-Loam: 1-1
New Horizons: 2-1
Need to playtest more and I'll try to update on my tournament this Sunday.
Hey, I top 8ed that tourney with this Landstill deck. I've been playing the deck with small changes here and there for about 4 years now. I think your critique of Orim's Chant might be a little premature. The amount of free wins that you get in game 1 due to chant + scepter is more that enough for me to include it. However, when you draw a chant sans scepter, it is faaar from a dead card. In many matchups it has pretty significant uses like the Tendrils/Doomsday/Belcher decks. But in other matchups like Mosswort Bridge Emrakul it is a complete nightmare for them when you play it in response to a Dreadnaught or just use it to punch through a FOW on Show and Tell.
Crucible has really never been cuttable in my opinion because recurring Wastelands, manlands, and fetchlands is all too awesome card advantage. With the addition of Jace in the deck makes using fetch lands over and over a death sentence for your opponent.
All in all, glad you liked the deck and I hope you do well with it. If you don't do well at first with it, keep in mind that the deck has tons of difficult decisions to be made. I promise that any matchup is winnable with it, you just need the proper approach.
I also really do like the approach, as I've been always a fan of scepter landstill but never had the courage to bring it with me to a tournament. Especially I like the inclusion of jace2.0, and i think the numbers are generally right. The major objections are:
1) spell snare and krosan grip are both cards alot used: what's the idea behind bringing a deck devoting 6 slots at least to a combo which loses to both? (not to mention qasali pridemage)
2) faerie conclave comes into play tapped: was this ever a problem? I think t2 standstill is a good play most of the time since you play wastelands AND 6 manlands. Have you considered mutavault instead?
3) i like MD orim chant, i don't like MD fire/ice. why not going 3 chant 3 scepter or add cunning wish instead?
Thanks.
Spell Snare has never really been a problem for me. Like, if you run out a scepter and the spell snare it, then you still have the instant you were planning on raping them with, but now you only get to use it once. Krosan Grip can certainly be problematic post board, however whenever I see a Krosan Grip or think they're bringing them in, I take out at least 1 Isochron and 1-2 Orim's Chants because that combo can never do what you want it to when the Grips are running around.
Faerie Conclave does come into play tapped, but there are only 2 of them so I've never had a problem with that. Rarely will your hand be like 2 Conclaves and no other lands. As long as you have another land, dropping Conclave first turn is never problematic. I've never wanted Mutavault because i already run 7 lands that don't provide me with colored sources. I think Faerie Conclave is generally better than Mutavault because you get to intercept random flyers like Kira, Great Glass-Spinner and that jazz, and it pumps out blue mana under a choke or something.
I actually used to run 3 Chant 3 Scepter 3 Fire/Ice however the hands when you have dead Scepters with no imprints are seriously terrible. Fire/Ice is REALLY sweet, I can't believe you don't like it. Not only is it game over for Goblins or Merfolk when it's on a Scepter, but even against control decks locking out a land on their upkeep and drawing a card every turn can spell victory 1 card at a time.
I never really considered Cunning Wish just because I truly do not like instant and sorceries that cost 3 or more because I feel it can be pretty hard to resolve them against merfolk with their Cursecatchers, Wastelands, Dazes, and Spell Pierces. However, if you feel that you dont have to worry about that, then by all means, try out some Cunning Wishes and let me know how it turns out, I'm kind of intrigued now.
Hey chiimagic, grats on the finish, fucking happy always to Landstill represent. My friend said your deck roflstomped him (Bant Survival). I agree that my conclusion on Chants might be premature :) But as far as my local tournaments go, there's hardly any combo so I won't be including it. But disregarding local tournaments, let's say against bulk of the metagame (Zoo,Merfolks, New Horizons, Goblins, Countertop), how often have you drawn the Chant without the scepter AND used it instead of holding onto it until you get the Scepter?
I have no playtesting experience with your deck so all my conclusions are premature and theoretical, as far as I know, I think Landstill is one of those deck that has huge digging power so cards in your hands aren't just limited to that.
I'm heading to the tourney soon, and hope not to fail. Landstill has always been the deck in my heart, and aside from that, I build jank and test jank decks of my own lol. I feel landstill doesn't really treat me fairly, but all I can really blame is bad playing and afraid of mulligans lol.
The list I'm playing today:
(61 cards: 37 spells, 24 lands dunno what spell to cut for the 3rd scepter)
3 EE
4 StP
4 Brainstorm
4 Standstill
4 Counterspell
3 Scepter
3 Fire//Ice
2 Cunning Wish
2 Elspeth
2 Jace TMS
2 Humility
4 FoW
1 Academy Ruins
4 Mishra's Factory
2 Wasteland
1 Plateau
2 Volcanic Island
4 Tundra
2 Island
2 Plains
2 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
Sideboard:
1 ETutor (grabs Scepter, Humility, Standstill, EE)
1 Dismantling Blow
1 Pulse of the Fields
1 Return to Dust (against Stax, could be the 2nd Dismantling Blow but can't find it)
1 Path to Exile
1 Orim's Chant
1 Ravenous Trap
2 Tormod's Crypt
3 Firespout
3 REB
No combo hate (not much combo here), expected meta is mostly going to be Countertop, Zoo, Goblins (tons), Merfolks, Dredge, Hypergenesis (brutal deck), Imperial Painter, Ankh Burn, Bant Survival, more aggro. Gustha brought up a good point to just go 3 Chants MD, which would be strong with 3 Scepters, but my meta is flooded with gobs and noble hierarchs that I feel fire//ice is superior at this point
I definitely remember that Survival match. Your friend, my opponent there was an extremely nice dude, I couldn't have had more fun that day because I only got paired against really stand up guys. The only real bad part was that yeah, I had to beat the living hell out of that Survival list, not because of his play or anything like that, it just didn't really do anything against this deck after I stopped his Survival from coming down.
To answer your question about how many times I just hold onto Chant, I would usually just say that I always hold it unless I feel there is a better card that I need to protect. An example would be that against any deck that plays FOW or any other permission I would happily run Orim's chant out there to allow me to land a Jace, TMS because he is basically game over for most decks to deal with. Even against like Goblins though in the legacy champs, I had a Standstill stop us from playing cards for about 14 turns while a single Piledriver poked my life down while I was waiting for a Scepter to show up to pair with my chant. I decided it wasn't going to happen, so EOT I kill the driver letting him draw to go to discard. I then dropped Elspeth and Jace on my turn, and spent W to lock out his next turn from playing any of the billion spells he had in grip to allow my walkers some time to take over the board and allow me to untap into permission mana to take the game.
I can understand if you don't want to play Chants because your meta isn't demanding it, I just feel that without it, your combo matchup is REAL bad against a competent combo player. That being said, if you have the luxury of not having to play against combo, by all means cut it. I have to play against people like Tommy Kolowith and some great minds when it comes to Doomsday and ANT, so I would never consider cutting it from a list I would play.
Came back victorious!
Top 4ed in a 26 man local tourney (we split the top 4 but I think the top 4 I would have a decent chance at making top2, my opponent will be Dream Halls/Show and Tell, and other players were Dredge and Merfolk)
First off the list:
(61 cards: 37 spells, 24 lands dunno what spell to cut for the 3rd scepter)
3 EE
4 StP
4 Brainstorm
4 Standstill
4 Counterspell
3 Scepter
3 Fire//Ice
2 Cunning Wish
2 Elspeth
2 Jace TMS
2 Humility
4 FoW
1 Academy Ruins
4 Mishra's Factory
2 Wasteland
1 Plateau
2 Volcanic Island
4 Tundra
2 Island
2 Plains
2 Polluted Delta
4 Flooded Strand
Sideboard:
1 ETutor (grabs Scepter, Humility, Standstill, EE)
1 Dismantling Blow
1 Pulse of the Fields
4 Meddling Mage
1 Path to Exile
1 Orim's Chant
1 Ravenous Trap
2 Tormod's Crypt
3 REB
Match 1: 2-0: TES
Game 1: He leads with Duress which I brainstormed to hide relevant counters. We exchanged land drop turns and I resolve Scepter with Counterspell at turn 4 with 2 mana open. I had the FoW and he did not have any Duress to ride it to victory
-2 Humility, -4 StP, +3 REB, +4 Meddling Mage
Game 2: I brainstorm and hide my hand from Duress. I resolved a Scepter, he Infernal Tutors for a 2nd Ad Nauseam. EOT he Ad Nauseam forcing me to use the scepter. I used it since this will buy me another casting of Ad Nauseam which he would take 2 pain damage from City of Brass, potentially weakening his flips. He flips into Tendrils, and that puts him low and continous flipping into Brainstorm/Ponder and no gas stole me the game. At one point, I EEed for zero and blew up 2 Lotus Petal which he mentioned was critical for him to go off.
1-0-0 (2-0-0)
Match 2: Enchantress
Game 1: He mulls to 4, I mull to 6. He wins this game with a mull to 4. Argothian Enchantress, into more Enchantress, draws cards, win with Words of Wind (Chrome Mox + Words of Wind + Serra's Sanctum is some badass tech)
Game 2: I win the game with him being stuck on 2 lands. Early Jace comes in and fateseals his lands away. He resolves Runed Halo to buy time, but I think I EE'd and won.
Game 3: I made a ton of play mistakes here. I got distracted talking, fetched a 3rd Tundra instead of the Volcanic Island to EE@3 his Karmic Justice away. I cast EE for 3, but resolved at 2 since I did not have 3 colors. As a result, I left Tundra + Wasteland mana open which I cannot cast the Counterspell in my hand. I ended up pitching CS to FoW to stop a Choke. Lost 3 cards as a result of a misplayed EE. He resolved Choke again, and I survived with 2 Plains and 2 Factories, keeping my blue open. I have a Cunning Wish which I was going to grab a Dismantling Blow on his Karmic Justice before resolving EE@3 to blow the other enchantment up. He resolved an Aura of Silence, therefore killing my mana and plan for the Karmic Justice. He had 2 Runed Halos naming Jace (in play) and Factories. I brainstormed constantly with Jace for answers, dug more and we ran to time.
At this point, he was at 13 life. I beat with Elspeth solider +3+3flying bringing him to 9 (turn 1 of time rounds)
He fetched bringing him down to 8 life, and I have a chance to win! I dropped 2 Meddling Mage naming Solitary Confinement and Elephant grass potentially hitting him for 8 damage with a 4/4 flying soldier and 2 MMs.
He goes off a little trying to find answers, blows one of his Runed Halos naming Jace, and attempts to Replenish. I Crypt him in response and it was game*.
*We then realized after the end of the game that I could not have crypt his replenish. He had City of Solitude out that stopped me from crypting on his turn. If replenish resolved, we would go to a draw since he would Rune Halo the MMs, and leaving him at 4 life. He said it's okay since he conceited the game at that point, but this will be something to note out for against those enchantresses matchups.
2-0-0 (4-0-0)
Match 3: 1-0-1 Mirror
My friend Jeff, who played Bant Survival in the GP mentioned that he's piecing this up since he figured he want to play the deck that so brutally roflstomped him lol. He's a very competent player but usually enjoys aggro decks and suicide decks :)
Game 1: He leads off with Factory and beats. I sword he FoWs. He beats again, I fire//Ice he FoWs. We are both stuck on low lands this game, and he decides not to beat fearing another removal which he doesn't has a 3rd FoW for lol. I eventually hit my lands faster, and Jace starts sealing the game with Fateseals/brainstorms. He keeps me off awhile but Isochron Scepter with Counterspell pushes it to game 2.
-4 Standstill (his list is stronger to utilize standstill than mine), -2 Humility, -1 Isochron Scepter +3 REB, +4 Meddling Mage
Game 2: He resolves early Crucible and a ton of manlands (Faerie Conclave beats plainswalkers). I buy some time using Jace as +5 to my life total, my removal were not too great against his 2 Factories and Conclave and he seals this one. He also had wastelock going (but I was playing a heavier basic: 2plains, 2islands so wasn't too locked out).
Game 3: Went to time, he gets aggressive with manlands but I have just enough removal to finish off to a draw with 12 life.
2-0-1 (5-1-1)
Match 3: UW Countertop Thopter Foundry
Game 1: He plays basics and goes, we exchange some counterspell wars over a Standstill (I was intentionally baiting out his FoWs) since I have a Scepter with Counterspell that I would prefer to resolve. Doing some maths: I play standstill, he counterspells, I FoW, he Fows, leaving us with equal card parity. I then drop Scepter with Counterspell and he ETutors in response fetching up an EE. I play my own EE blow it up, and land a Jace later, he ETutors for Oring and we stall a little, but a second Jace gets there while Scepter keeps him off. He drops a Baneslayer which I StP and he scoops to game 2 after a few turns.
-2 Humility, -2 StP, -3 Fire//Ice +3 REB, +4 Meddling Mage
Game 2: He resolves counterbalance after we fight off a couple of non-important spells. He does not have top so I Meddling Mage naming Top, Scepter with Counterspell resolves after we burn out of FoW wars. Meddling Mage and Factories get in there. Meddling Mage is so hot against control!
3-0-1 (7-1-1)
Match 3: Zoo
Game 1: Rodrigo, our fellow friend who's getting into Legacy is 4-0 at the moment! He opens with Kird Ape, Pridemage, Goyf, Knight of the Reliquary, Lightning Bolts here and there. I kept a hand with StP, FoW, Counterspell, Elspeth Lands. I deal with his threats and go down to about 11, and resolved Humility somewhere, this bought me quite a lot of time. Elspeth follows up next and Isochron with StP holds off his forces. I win this in time at about 8 life (was worried about Fireblast//Price of Progress) but glad he did not draw any.
Game 2: He does what Zoo does and hits me down turn after turn. I drew about 1 StP, 1 EE and counter relevant stuff but it wasn't enough to bring his forces down. I ended up stabilizing with a Wild Nactal at the board at 4 life. I brainstorm for an StP/answer but found crap. My fetchland could not help me to retry for a new topdeck and I conceit and move on to Game 3.
Game 3: Similar to Game 1 but he resolve Loam Cat -> Jitte. That is problematic since I had a good hand against an aggro deck without Jitte (Humility/Elspeth). Playing Elspeth would mean wasting a spell since Jitte pings and pumps to kill the white Plainswalker. I iced his Cat with Jitte twice, cantripped into Isochron, and imprinted StP on the scepter. He swings with 2 creatures, I StP from my hand one of them, go down to 13. Next turn scepter starts clearing his board and I resolve my Elspeth safely. He continues to dump tons and tons of 1/1 creatures, but I StP and block accordingly. Cleared his board, drew a FoW and ride a 1/1 +3/+3 flying soldier to victory holding the FoW against PoP//Fireblast.
4-0-1 (9-2-1)
We split top 4, but my opponent was Show and Tell/Dream Halls. He mentioned he's terrified of this deck since he lost to my friend Jeff earlier. I guess it will be a good matchup when played out, tons of counters, tons of REB postboard and Scepter.
All in all, I'm super impressed with Scepter. Here are my thoughts on it, which I hope to echo ChiiMagic's views:
- Scepter itself is not a dead card in Landstill. There are many viable targets: Brainstorm/Counterspell/StP/Orim's Chant/Cunning Wish Targets. If it stays on the board, even without a Chant-lock, it is generating advantage, much akin to a Planeswalker. When they do deal with it, if it is a counterspell, then you have baited a Counterspell which ends up in a 1 for 1 (2 for 1 in your favor if they FoW). If it gets destroyed before you can use it, then you are 2 for 1ed in their favor. Despite this drawback, there are only a certain scenarios that I see this happening in the current meta: turn 2 Pridemage. There are not a lot of decks with MD removal fast enough to remove a turn 2 scepter other than Pridemage. EE would take a turn, and by then you can either resolve a counterspell or EE against their removal. If Scepter stays for a turn and gets used once, then if they removed it, it's again a 1-1 (2 cards against 2 cards). If scepter stays on and gets used more than once, you have already profitted.
-With regards to Grips on Scepters. Refer to the above for scenarios on whether it's profitable to play Scepters. Depending on the matchup, I think the fear of Scepter and boarding in Grips is a good thing for this deck. DEpending on the matchup again, I may board out or not board out Scepter if I suspect Grip. Against Zoo, I'll board them out and go straight power cards against them. Since they've diluted their game2/3 with Grips, you have a much stronger MD than they do now since they have diluted their power with Grips. And you win your aggro matchup. If it's combo packing grip, then just play as you would with Meddling Mages. I'll keep the Scepters in against combo anyway.
So far, my conclusions for Scepter have been close to that of a Planeswalker: deal with it or lose. Although it's much easier to remove than a Planeswalker, it comes down 2 turns faster, and would net you quite some advantage before it's been removed. If they never remove it, you have just added more form of board and card advantage. All in all, I have tested Scepter to be bad in theory, but today, I have been proven otherwise. I like it for my playstyle, and I feel that it should be explored and tested again.
Thanks to John Knapp for the top8 finish, and representing Landstill again in the competitive environment. More credit for revitalizing the idea of Scepter, and spark off interest in people to test it up.
I think my changes for next tournament will be to play 2 MD chants (1 SB), cut down to 2 Scepter and 1 Humility. I'm still going to run the 2 Cunning Wish since I'm just a fan and experienced with Wishstill builds. I feel that the 2 Cunning Wish strengthens an unknown game 1 metagame, but also fetches ETutor often which can bring relevant pieces that affect the board:
- EE for fast Zoo/aggro/enchantments
- Standstill if you have a good position
- Sceptor if you have something to imprint on safely
- Humility if you need a 'Wrath' effect.
And I have not had trouble without Wrath. I thought I'll do bad without them, but Elsepth + StP + Fire//Ice is good enough to hold off a field. Against Progenitus, I would have to solely resolve Humility. My exclusion of WoG was to solely rely on Humility for situations where Wrath is needed. I feel that Humility > Wrath most of the time, and in this particular list, it is more so because of the MD Fire//Ice that helps stabilize an early game, making WoG less required, but also serve as a powerful spell that pings two 1/1s after Humility resolve. Ice can cantrip in the worst scenario against goyfs and hopefully dig into an answer (See the match report against Loam Lion + Jitte).
Interesting, Scepter seems better than it felt when I tested it for a few games after the deck made top 8 at an SCG. I might have to look into it again.
Just for next time, Aura of Silence doesn't seem to affect your plays at all here (as long as you have access to 5 mana to blow it immediately). You can announce EE with X=1, Aura of Silence makes it cost 3, you pay with 3 different colors and get Sunburst = 3 (yes this works, old Vintage-tech against Sphere of Resistance/Trinisphere).Quote:
He resolved Choke again, and I survived with 2 Plains and 2 Factories, keeping my blue open. I have a Cunning Wish which I was going to grab a Dismantling Blow on his Karmic Justice before resolving EE@3 to blow the other enchantment up. He resolved an Aura of Silence, therefore killing my mana and plan for the Karmic Justice.
Crz87, I'm glad to hear the deck served you well. I know that deck has made me a ridiculous amount of $ over the years by sharking up local legacy tourneys. The only thing I want to point out is that when I play against ANT I never take out all the STPs because if they SB in Dark Confidant, you can take a serious beating from the cards he'll give them. I usually go -3 EE, -1 PTE, -2 Elspeth, -1 STP +4 Meddling Mage, +3 REB.
Also, for the mirror match or anything close to it, I would never bring in Meddling Mage for fear of locking out your own spells later. I've had to play the mirror one or twice, and I've gone -4 Standstill, -1 PTE +2 Tormod's Crypt, +3 REB.
Again, I'm quite happy to hear that you smashed some people with the deck. I hope everybody else can get the same results.
Hey can anyone give some advise for my new Landstill deck. As with previous posters I have become somewhat dissatisfied by standstill. So I'm aiming for a toolbox approach which I really like with Cunning Wish and a draw go strategy with FOF. All while still having multiple ways to deal with things like Vexing Shusher. I love Cunning wish for E tutor and grabbing an answer. So the sideboard is also many artifacts and enchantments that will hopefully be silver bullets. The decks I want to focus on beating are Merfolk and Combo (Storm, Encantress and show and tell) while keeping in mind :r: can be a weakness for Landstill. Cunning wish for Mindbreaktrap seems strong against Storm.
I really like Jace Mind Sculptor but I don't get why people are going so mental over him I still like Elspeth better she can give you a faster clock and potentially provide some free creature trading. Anyways I don't want to get into a huge flame war over the best Plainwalkers I think we can all agree they are both great for control. Perhaps I will learn to like Jace even more in the future. But I love how I can make 5/5 flyers out of my Factories and send them over the Moat too much :wink:
24 land
1 Plains
1 Island
1 Tropical Island
1 Hallowed Fountain
1 Academy Ruins
4 Flooded Strand
3 Polluted Delta
4 Tundra
4 Wasteland
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Force of Will
4 Brainstorm
2 Preordain
3 Cunning Wish
3 Spell Snare
3 Counterspell
2 Fact or Fiction
2 Jace the Mind Sculptor
3 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
2 Wrath of God
4 STP
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 SDT
1 EE
1 Powder Keg
Side
1 Wheel of Sun and Moon
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Path to Exile
1 Llawan, Cephalid Empress
1 Relic of Progenitus
1 Pulse of the Fields
1 Circle of protection: red
1 Mindbreak Trap
1 Krosan Grip
3 Spell Pierce
1 Humility
1 Moat
1 Pithing Needle
There are a couple things that I don't like at your list (besides the missing Standstills). 3 Wishes seem to much, as your Wishboard isn't so strong to actually win the game out of nowhere.
I also don't get the point of playing Humility in your board when you got acces to E.Tutor (besides Humility loses so much power post board that you will hardly side it in for G2/3).
Preordain looks cute, but SDT nr. 2 seems to be superior. I'd also cut the Hallowed Fountain for a Glacial Fortress (you can't fetch it but besides it has all advantages while being immune to Choke) and a Delta for Srubland, to play an Extirpate in the board. Powder Keg can't compete with Explosive, as Explosive can get rid of Tokens and Chalice and Vials and all the other stuff while still being much more versatile.
I'd also play Vedalken Shackles as another tollbox target that can stall out a game if your opponent doesn't find an answer.
My final list would look like this:
4 Strand
2 Delta
1 Scrubland
1 Tropical
4 Tundra
1 Glacial Fortress
4 Mishra
4 Wasteland
1 Academy
1 Island
1 Plains
4 Swords
2 Wrath
1 Humility
1 Crucible
3 EE
1 Shackles
4 Brainstorm
2 SDT
2 Wish
1 E.Tutor
2 FoF
2 Jace
2 Elspeth
4 Force
3 CS
3 Snare
Board:
1 Pulse
1 Extirpate
2 Path
1 E. Tutor
1 Grip
2 Relic
1 Wheel/Crypt
3 Negate/Spell Pierce
1 Fix Slot (Mindbreak Trap, Ravenous Trap,Tsabos Decree,Echoing Truth,Return to Dust, etc. guess this one is a meta call)
2 Preacher / Llawan (I'd play Preacher but I guess this is moreover a personal taste)
I'm not really sure if the Deck can compete without Standstill but I'd give it a shot (even if the name Landstill doesn't make much sense now ;) ).
@Felidae Thanks for the list revision that looks good to me. I was thinking about a game 1 answer with Cunning Wish to dredge and graveyard abuse. Wish has been the bomb to me. I would hate to drop it to 2.
I had Shackles in an earlier version and it seemed slow to me also I wasn't getting enough islands to nab a Goyf or bigger creatures. I upped my land count though so it might be possible, although I still believe it to be a bit slow and clunky. Also I would think Hallowed Fountain would be better with Shackles then Glacial Fortress as it counts as Island.
The Powder keg is for dealing with opposing man lands. I like having an option.
And finally what is this Preacher you speak of? Anything to deal with Merfolk.
Preacher is basicly Shackles on legs, without the drawback to need an amount of Islands. He comes in mind against Merfolk as he can grab any kind of creature and force the Merfolk player to over extend the board. He's also pretty good against the most Bant Decks, as they tend to board there StP's out for stuff like Grip etc. (at least my opponents have done this alot).
With 4 Mishras, 4 Wastelands and 4 StP'S: Do you really need another answer to manlands?
I like Shackles, but the Island count might really be a bit low to abuse the card with it's full potential, and yeah in this case Fountain would be better^^.
Maybe -1 Scrubland and -1 Glacier for 1 Usea and 1 Fountain. With 8 Islands there should be a ton of creatures that you'd be able to steal, even with manadenial.
What has happened to this thread? I haven't had time to talk on the source for like a year due to being super busy with school and stuff, but now that I've got more time, it seems like the UW Landstill thread is a ghost town. Has everybody else like bailed on the deck or whats up guys?
It does seem like the UWx builds fell out of favor, especially with the UGB version gaining popularity via 5K's and the recent GP Top 8.Quote:
Originally Posted by ChiiMagic
I took a UWb list to the GP and definitely regretted it, and I've had such a bad taste in my mouth that I've decided to quit playing the deck for a while, and left to explore UGw Tempo, TES, and other options. I had a lot of success with Landstill earlier this year, but lately I feel like the deck has lost a lot of power compared to the how the current metagame developed and can only evolve so much. Where other decks have gained new creatures, new strategies, and new cards, UWx Landstill has stayed relatively the same. I tried to prove a lot of the critics wrong at the GP, and despite building what I thought was the best list for my chances of success, I wound up just losing a shitload of rating points to decks like SnT/Hypergenesis, Dream Halls, Reanimator, and similar archetypes.
Maybe I'll decide to play the deck at some point again but at the moment, I haven't exactly "bailed" on the deck, but am keeping my mind open on other deck choices.
I mostly lurk. I posted my list not too long ago, I also have this little report. But I don't really like getting into too many discussions with people I don't know on-line.Quote:
Originally Posted by ChiiMagic
We can discuss the differences between our lists but what it comes down to is preference. You like Isochron Scepter, so do I but I want to play some other cards a bit more. You like playing 2x of each planeswalker and a second Crucible, I like playing 3 Decrees. People think the curve of my deck is too high and I say, "lower it then"
We're in this rut where those of us that have experience with the deck have adapted it to our playstyles and metagames (as you should with any control deck) and are left to say, "Well, I like this"
I've played around with Knappstill but I wasn't happy with the number of cards that I lost that I've come to swing my entire play style for Landstill around.
I guess I can do a quick rundown of some topics that have come up, maybe it will inspire me to come back and try to defend my choices.
Shackes - its way to slow for one, you aren't playing as many Islands as you think for, it doesn't take a goyf until turn 5 at the best, it is another card that is prone to pridemage, it doesn't win the game on its own. That should cover it
Counterpspell and Spell Snare. I plat a 4/1 split. I want all of my counters to be able to hit every possible card. Spell Snare #1 is sometimes played as CS #5. With the way the metagame is shifting you can't really have cards that can't hit Show and Tell or Doomsday or a ritual of some sort until you've maxed out the number of cards that you would play that can hit those cards.
I keep wanting to try Preacher, but that takes some pretty big balls.
I think that Elspeth is the best planeswalker in the deck, but I never play more than one. For a control heavy metagame I would play 2 Jace 1 Elspeth. I don't like playing 3, but I play a high curve all ready and I play tons of answers for opposing planeswlakers so that mine can get the job done right.
If you're playing Jace primarily as a draw spell and not as a win condition, you're probably doing it wrong. Geoff posts a great tidbit about this about a dozen pages back. Jace isn't a replacement for FoF or any other draw spell, but a separate win condition/metagame slot that gives you a lot of flexibility.
Also, if anyone takes a look at my list I have a pretty comprehensive sideobarding table that can be referenced.
[spoiler] if this tag works
Sideboard:
2 Path to Exile
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Return to Dust
1 Pulse of the Fields
1 Ravenous Trap
1 Extirpate
1 Red Elemental Blast
1 Negate
1 Mindbreak Trap
2 Firespout
2 Relic of Progentius
1 Tormod's Crypt
Although my current board is in flux, this is what I played at the GP. Right now I am not nearly as metagamed against aggro, though.
Zoo
+2 Firespout +1 Path to Exile
Play: -1 Jace, the Mindsculptor -1 Decree of Justice -1 Counterspell
Draw: -1 Standstill -1 Decree of Justice -1 Fact or Fiction
Cards to Wish for: Pulse, Path, E. Tutor
Merfolk [this plan needs to be re-examined as games 2s were gruesome.]
+2 Firespout +2 Path to Exile +1 Enlightened Tutor
Play: -3 Cunning Wish -1 Jace the Mindsculptor -1 Standstill
Draw: -3 Cunning Wish -2 Standstill
No cards to wish for
Goblins
+2 Firespout +1 Path to Exile
-1 Jace the Mindsculptor -1 Force of Will -1 Standstill
Cards to Wish for: E. Tutor, Path, Pulse
Lands
+2 Relic of Progenitus [or +1 Wasteland], +1 Tormod's Crypt +1 Negate +1 Mindbreak Trap, +1 Enlightened Tutor
-1 Humility, -1 Wrath of God, -2 Swords to Plowshares -2 Path to Exile, -1 Engineered Explosives
Cards to Wish for: Extirpate, Ravenous Trap, Red Elemental Blast
New Horizons/Tempo Bant
+1 Path to Exile
-1 Cunning Wish w/o Jace
-1 Force of Will w/ Jace
Relic is a consideration against Terravore.
Cards to Wish for: Enlightened Tutor, Path to Exile, Red Elemental Blast
Dredge
+2 Relic of Progenitus [or +1 Wasteland], +1 Tormod's Crypt, +1 Extirpate +1 Enlightened Tutor
-1 Wrath of God, -3 Standstill, -1 Engineered Explosives
Cards to Wish for: Ravenous Trap, E. Tutor,
Thopter Control
+1 Negate, +1 Mindbreak Trap, +2 Relic of Progenitus [or +1 Wasteland], +1 Tormod's Crypt.
-2 Path to Exile, -1 Wrath of God, -1 Humility, -1 Moat
Cards to Wish for: Return to Dust, E. Tutor, Red Elemental Blast
Landstill Mirror:
+1 Negate, +1 Mindbreak Trap, +2 Relic of Progenitus
-1 Wrath of God, -1 Humility, -1 Moat, -1 Path to Exile
Cards to Wish for: E. Tutor, Red Elemental Blast, Path to Exile
Belcher:
+1 Negate, +1 Mindbreak Trap, +1 Path to Exile(Draw) +2 Firespout(Play)
-1 Moat, -1 Humility, -1 Wrath of God, -1 Path to Exile (Play)
Cards to Wish for: Nothing, really. Pitch them to FoW
Storm Combo
+1 Negate, +1 Red Elemental Blast, +2 Relic of Progenitus
-1 Wrath of God, -1 Humility, -1 Moat, -1 Engineered Explosives
Cards to Wish for: Mindbreak Trap, E. Tutor, Path to Exile.
Eva Green
+1 Path to Exile
-1 Engineered Explosives
Cards to Wish for: Enlightened Tutor, Path to Exile, The 3rd one just won't happen.
Show and Tell/Eureka/Hypergenesis:
+1 Mindbreak Trap +1 Negate +1 Red Elemental Blast
-2 Path to Exile -1 Engineered Explosives
Cards to Wish for: Extirpate, E. Tutor
Aeon Bridge
[+1 Wasteland] +1 Negate, +1 Mindbreak Trap, +1 Red Elemental Blast
-3 Engineered Explosives
Cards to Wish for: Extirpate, Enlightened Tutor, Path to Exile
Natural Order Counter-Top
No boarding
Cards to Wish for: Path to Exile, Return to Dust, Red Elemental Blast
Reanimator:
+2 Relic of Progenitus, +1 Tormod's Crypt, +1 Negate, +1 Mindbreak Trap
-3 Engineered Explosives, -1 Moat, -1 Path to Exile
Cards to Wish for: Extirpate, Ravenous Trap, Enlightened Tutor.
Aluren
+1 Negate, +1 Red Elemental Blast
-1 Moat, -1 Wrath of God
Cards to Wish for: Extirpate, Mindbreak Trap, Enlightened Tutor
Stax:
W/o Metalworker
+1 Negate, +1 Mindbreak Trap, +2 Relic of Progenitus
-1 Path to Exile, -1 Wrath of God, -1 Moat -1 Humility
W/ Metalworker
+1 Negate +1 Mindbreak Trap, +2 Relic of Progentius
-1 Moat -1 Wrath of God, -1 Decree of Justice, -1 Path to Exile
Cards to Wish for: Return to Dust, Enlightened Tutor, Path to Exile.
Dream Halls
+1 Negate +1 Mindbreak Trap +2 Relic of Progenitus +1 Red Elemental Blast +1 Extirpate
-1 Swords to Plowshares -2 Path to Exile -3 Engineered Explosives
Elf-ball – No Boarding
Elf Survival – -1 ...hmmm, +1 Path to Exile
[spoiler]
The thread is dying because we needed people like you (John Knapp) to restore hope that the deck is still solid.
Legacy is changing though after my 6month break. It's shifted into an aggro heavy, bant-color aggro-control, and decks that cheat Emrakul/Iona in (Show and Tell, Reanimator, Hypergenesis, Dream Halls, Mosswort Bridge, Natural Order).
My friend made the comment, the even more recent change was the popularity of decks that won game 1 and go to time on game 2 e.g. Countertop Thopter. Landstill falls under on of these decks as well. Landstill has actually been more popular recently, but that's mainly pertaining to the UBG/UBGw decks packing 4 deeds 4 Jace.
Your list was the one that resparked my interest in Landstill again. I have always played Landstill, but felt that the deck did not treat me fairly in tournaments by giving me bad hands and matchups. Although I have learned to be more aggressive at keeping better hands, and playing out more carefully. UGB/UGBw Landstill packs more inevitability with deeds and Jace, but I feel that the maindeck is weak. I took your advice on the Chants, and they are far from dead since they serve as:
1) Additional disruption to combo game 1, make you win unexpectedly
2) Resolve Jace with Chant and win against control mirror
3) Fog for a turn to dig another spell to beat aggro.
4) On a scepter and win
I've been playtesting a slightly different list. I know Mr Knapp has been tweaking his UWr list for years, and I chanced upon old articles/tournament placing/reports where he placed in a number of Top8s. I am experimenting with the idea outside of red, and a main motivation still lingers with my preference for Wishstill builds. I felt that red was not too effective with Cunning Wishes, so I opted to change the maindeck a little, hybridizing my old UBw Wishstill with John's UWr Scepterstill
Here's my list for this weekend:
(24 Lands)
4 Mishra's Factory
3 Wasteland
1 Academy Ruins
4 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
3 Tundra
2 Underground Sea
1 Tropical Island
1 Plains
1 Island
2 Faerie Conclave
4 Force of Will
4 Counterspell
2 Orim's Chant
4 Brainstorm
4 Standstill
2 Isochron Scepter
2 Cunning Wish
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Engineered Explosives
1 Humility
3 Jace TMS
2 Elspeth
1 Crucible of Worlds
Sideboard:
1 Enlightened Tutor
1 Pulse of the Fields
1 Krosan Grip
1 Path to Exile
1 Diabolic Edict
1 Orim's Chant
3 Extirpate
3 Engineered Plague
3 Ethersworn Canonist
Card explanations:
- 4 Brainstorm/4 Standstill
Nothing to say here. I have tried replacements for Standstill in other forms of control decks, but seriously, this IS the best draw 3 in the format but you need the deck to complement it.
- 2 Isochron Scepter
Tested 3, a little clunky, 3 might do well in a UWr running Fire//Ice. I'm about 2 instants short in my list compared to John's to imprint on Scepter, so 2 is just the right amount for me. This is not a deck that wins on Scepter, but it uses Scepter as an advantage generator. I would imprint Brainstorm anytime if that were the only card in my hand. Even brainstorm on a scepter would net you a card every turn, while giving you the best of 3 cards in your hand, combined with fetches dig for more answers.
- 2 Cunning Wish
Sometimes amazing, sometimes underwhelming (paying 2U + W for a Path is not cool) and against faster decks game 1, these may cost you the game. But in general, I like the flexibility in game 1, since against non-aggro decks, you can grab an Extirpate and potentially screw a gameplay due to split-second if Cunning Wish resolves. I'll raise some examples why Cunning Wish is nice in this list (and as always in a UWb list)
1) Fetch ETutor that grab Standstill/Crucible/EE/Isochron/Humility, 2 wish acts as the 6th/3rd/5th/4th/3rd copy for these spells respectively.
2) Grabs Pulse against aggro to stabilize, if they're not playing blue, Pulse becomes a big problem unless discarded. This wins/stabilizes me plenty of game 1s. I noticed John plays Descendant of Kiyomaro which is a BEAST! But I feel that Landstill has a good aggro matchup, so 3 of the white-warmonks are wasting some slots in the sideboard. Wish would free up 2 slots in the SB and you yet have access to a stabilizing effect.
3) Grabs Grip. Now I seldom do this but getting rid of a Choke/Counterbalance is always nice, and I'm still justifying the Tropical Island MD (See Tropical Island discussion below)
4) Get a Path to Exile, 2 Wish into this act as a slow 4cc StP effect. I'm usually fine with just 4 StP, so the wish frees my maindeck, but against fast aggro, this can be a problem
5) Grab Diabolic Edict against Iona naming white, against Progenitus/Emrakul. This SB slot is meta-gamed but I feel is needed if you're playing UWb Wishstill in a meta of Show and Tells
6) Get the 3rd Orim's Chant. Holding onto the Sceptor for a better instant? Get this for scepter, or wish to try to fight against combo game 1 (Turn 4 not likely though lol)
7) Extirpate. If you scepter this, you probably win as much as Chant on a stick. Now this is a common wish target. Extirpate is a double-edged sword. They suck in the maindeck, but are golden in the right situations, therefore having them in the wishboard does what the deck needs the most: not wasting maindeck space but having the ability to grab it against Loam/combo (dark rituals)/opposing FoW/Counterbalance to resolve Jace
Out of the wishboard, ETutor/Path/Edict/Chant/Extirpate can all be imprinted so it's advisable to not use Wish unless you need it to save your skin, otherwise keep it to fetch a relevant target or wait till the scepter comes into your hand.
Depending on the matchup, I might play without Wishes postboard, but I think in game1, they serve as a great resource against an unknown opponent as long as they're not rocket fast (you lose those games anyway if you don't have wish and drew any random card that did not mattered)
- 4StP/3EE
Nothing to say here. 4EE is a little too clunky, 2 is too little. EE is the best removal printed for Landstill (gets Counterbalance, set it at 2 colors but pay 4cc to dodge it), and many more targets, great against Zoo, and decent against tribal. Recursion with Ruins is a plus. I play a Trop just to hit 4cc against plainswalkers in the mirror
- 1 Humility
So John's list has showed me that without Wrath/Humility, Landstill can still top8. I played with 2 Humilities last week and they saved me against Zoo, but were dead cards against other matchups (mirror, enchantress etc). Due to the inclusion of scepter/chant, I'm dropping this down to 1, since I can still fetch it up with Cunning WIsh->ETutor, making it a psuedo 3 copies of Humility if I need it. I might end up dropping it entirely seeing how it goes but I know Humility has been the best answer for me against aggro.
- 3 Jace TMS/2 Elspeth
Played with 2 copies, and I just wanted more. 4 will clog up too much, 3 seems just right, and the extra always pitches to FoW. Jace just seems better than Elspeth against any matchup, but I still play the 2 Elspeth with the prominence of aggro decks in Legacy. A resolved Jace against a creatureless board is devastating, so the challenge is to keep the board clear, and that should not be too hard for Landstill. I was always annoyed with the lack of Fact or Fiction in my later Landstill lists and the inclusion of scepter/chant does not help solve the card slots, so running 3 Jace gives me a little more card advantage than 2 Jace in my list that lacks some card advantage compared to FoF lists
- 1 Crucible
I lost to the mirror because of this. I might want to try 2, but I think it is not as game-winning a card in general except when paired against a control mirror. I play 1 since I have 2 Wishes to ETutor for it when I really need it or to wastelock someone out. It's just a great card in Landstill since dropping every land a turn is why this deck wins. Having 2 might risk into drawing 2 copies, so 1 copy with 2 Wishes seems to solve that problem a little.
- 4FoW/4Counterspell
Nothing to say here. Counterspell > Spell Snare to my surprise since I always played 4 Snare, 3 Counterspell in my old lists. Counterspell on Scepter has given me so many free turns/advantage to win the game
- 2 Chants
I liked 3 chants maindeck but they were too much with only 2 scepters. 3 chant 3 scepter is the way to go but due to card slots, I ended up with a 2/2 split.
- 6Fetch/2 Seas/3 Tundra Ideal IMO
- 3 Wasteland/1 Academy Ruins Ideal IMO
- 1 Plains/1 Island non-ideal (would like 2 plains/2island) but since I feel that Faerie Conclave is worth it in the deck, I have to sacrifice on basics
- 2 Faerie Conclave (after realizing that if factories are dealt with Runed Halo/Extirpate), another win-con is always nice, there's already 8 colorless sources so the Conclave is needed the most. What I realized is that these lands solve the planeswalker problem against the mirror as they fly over, and even against the aggro matchups, if you have enough factories to block but not attack, the faeries can take it in the air while the factories stall on the defense. I was tired of not tapping my Factories sideways against many matchups that I'm willing to test 2 out in John's list. I'm a little uncomfortable with 2 basics (instead of 4) so maybe I will up to 2MD Crucibles which complement this strategy well
- 1 Tropical Island: useless land outside of Grip and EE@4, but I feel that just 1 inclusion would make my life much easier against Jace TMS, as tested against a friend, Jace is really tough to get rid off. Unlike aggro decks, you can't really put a clock to hit his counters down with factories, so this 1 extra colored source would make my EEs useful against the mirror instead of sitting dead in my hand. Fetching a grip via wish is never bad if you can support the trop not getting wasted, but decks playing cards worth gripping (counterbalance/chokes/Survival) usually dont run wasteland (e.g. Bant/Survival/Enchantress), even then, you have crucibles so you should not be too bad aside from Blood Moons.
Sideboard:
-3 Ethersworn Canonist (might play 4)
Decided to play these over Meddling Mages. It's effective against combo (much more now since Mystical Tutor is banned so they can no longer EOT tutor up removal, next turn bounce and go off next turn). Canonist says you either draw the removal or Ad Nauseam INTO a removal. Another big plus is against the Loam matchup, you can slow the Loam player down quite significantly although Mage would name Loam so it's about even this matchup. Canonist is stronger in the control mirror since your counters become hard counters if it sticks in play. Against enchantress, it is stronger in general as well, slowing them a lot until they dig for an Aura of Silence/Oring. Canonist also cannot be REBed, which is a plus (and can kill a piledriver! lol)
The UWr version has a straightforward benefit of beating the control mirror, blue decks and merfolks, which is an incredible big plus since Merfolks is always a problematic matchup.
The UWb version is stronger against goblins, Loam, Combo and has decent bonuses against merfolks and control mirror.
Let's compare:
- Control mirror: REB (UWr) v.s. Extirpate (UWb)
REB wins straight 1for1, Extirpate xfor1s at the cost of requiring the specific card in the graveyard but assuming you sandbag counters and counter relevant win-conditions, this will start to shine in the mid-game. I feel that in the control matchup, an extirpate wins more games since it has the potential to take out multiple copies of a spell. REB is more reactive and faster in the earlier games, but the control mirror is really focused on the mid-late game, hitting landdrops and resolving game-winning spells/planeswalkers.
- Merfolks: REB (UWr) v.s. Engineered Plague (UWb)
I rather have REB against merfolks than EP, so UWr wins here, but Eplague is brutal if you resolve it before they resolve lords (a little tough)
- Goblins: UWr no specific red cards (not including BeB argument since UWb can run these as well) v.s. EPlague (UWb)
UWb wins this one straight off the top. Goblins die to Plague since unlike Merfolks, they don't play as many lords
- Loam: UWr no specific red cards v.s. Extirpate (UWb)
Extirpate is huge against the Loam matchup, which I personally find to be one of Landstill's HARDEST matchups, always 50-50 and 70-30 in their favor if they get loam going. They draw more cards then you, have a fast clock and recycle dead unplowed creatures
- Dredge: UWr no specific red cards v.s. Extirpate (UWb)
Extirpate wins again
- Show&Tell/Reanimator/Hypergenesis/Progenitus/Emrakul: UWr no answers v.s. Diabolic Edict (and/or Extirpate)
Edict is your potential out if they only have 1 creature out.
- Bant/New Horizons/Bant Survival: REB (UWr) v.s. Extirpate (UWb)
REB wins this one unless Survival resolves, then Extirpate becomes relevant.
- Combo: REB (UWr) v.s. Extirpate (UWb)
REB hits cantrips which is highly important, but Extirpate can mess up dark rituals and LEDs potentially winning the game. Commonly, you want to Chant a ritual, then Extirpate the ritual and either causing them to fizzle if they have ritual in hand or lead to weaker AdN flips.
REB is dead against Belcher (non-blue combo decks) but red does provide sweepers. Black has the equivalent EPlague against goblin tokens for the same cost as Firespout and 1 more than Pyroclasm (which is outdated card in Legacy now)
Hope this evaluation of the decklist and strategy sparks some interest, a hybrid of wishstill and Knappstill. I hope the Landstill community keep up hope. The format has changed but I think it's a much better format for Landstill than it used to be. Combo is 0.5 turns slower now, and Reanimator is weakened a little. Landstill is one of those decks that can handle the new influx of Show and Tell decks (via counters), Humility, Jace, Cunning Wish edicts, and now ScepterChant which says they can't win either unless it's Iona naming white.
But keep in mind, this is my list that works best for me, I'm sharing it, and it's always evolving. Thing lovely about Landstill is that there's no best list, just a one that you're comfortable and the one that has a metagame strategy built in it. Landstill is one of the highly tunable decks (compared against other decks e.g. Counterbalance, goblins, merfolks which cannot really change their maindeck much without losing functionality).
I feel that UWb Cunningstill (with scepters now) has a good shot against the big portion of the meta. Extirpate itself improves the Loam, Lands, Combo, Mirror, matchups and EPlague gives you a good chance against goblins/merfolks/elves. If the meta is more Merfolk/blue infested, I would pick up UWr Knappstill. Cunningstill is more diverse in answers but less direct and slower than UWr Knappstill. Once again, a matter of playstyle and metagame choices. Time to discuss!
It seems like there is not enough land in the deck to consistently draw hands and not mulligan, especially with 4 colors (kinda). I only run 6 colorless mana producers, with 25 lands, and I still dont see colors consistenly enough. Also, while standstill is an amazing card, it seems to be dead in half of the matchups. I would seriously consider lowering the Standstill count, most likely to 3, and adding land #25.
Also, with the threat or Emrakul, Iona, doesnt Karakas become an all star in those matches? With White being the secondary color in the deck, I would think there should be at least 1 (MB or SB). Thoughts?
What happened to Sensei's Divining Top? I always thought it was godsend. But it seems to fall out of favor.
SDT is comparable to Cunning Wish, as both provide card-quality. If you fetch the gamebreaking bomb with Cunning Wish, Cunning Wish obviously provides much more card-quality than SDT. However, for example, if you need a land, Cunning Wish gives you zero card-quality.
SDT also provides card-quality at a much earlier stage of the game than Cunning Wish.
I'm personally really fascinated by that card: SDT. I'm working on a SDT build, maybe I will post it.
I can basicly agree 101% with this statement.Quote:
Originally Posted by Master Shake
24 Lands (or 23 + Eternal Dragon) seems to be the right number (at least for me the 2. option workes pretty fine), being able to survive multiple Wastelands,Sinkholes,Vindicates or Stifles. The only time I really got screwd was against a Rock stylish deck with 4 Extirpates to remove Duals or Fetchlands and a full package of Wasteland, Sinkhole and Vindicate.
Karakas is a fine card, but I personal never got the feeling that I'm in a situation where my last hope is Karakas. Against Combo Decks playing Show and Tell or other stuff to sneak Emrakul in play I'd rather try to counter the relevant spells (i.e. Show and Tell, Sneack Attack, Doomsday (with Shelldock Island), etc.) or kill/ bouncel Emrakul via WoG, Humility o Jace.
Crz87, I love that you're putting your own spin on the deck. After all, we all need to build the deck to fit the way that we play to make it the most comfortable for us. I'm going to have to agree with OneBigSquirrelGod though. Your manabase has officially entered into greedy. I would definitely cut out the Tropical Island since its only use it the Grip SB and maybe to bump up EE. Whatever you need to take out with Grip you can usually take out with EE save for like Aluren or something that you should be Counterspelling anyways. I agree with you 100% that Humility is a crutch that Landstill players do not have to lean on, but playing 1 of them shouldn't really hurt much since you probably won't encounter it unless you want to.
Tea, SDT certainly has merits in Landstill builds, however I feel that at least my deck is SOO pressed for slots that every single card in my list has proven itself to be worthy of the 60. I have found that Jace, TMS basically does whatever you would want out of SDT but 100x better. The advantage of SDT is that you can drop it in the early game and use it to set up your game state to get to where Jace, TMS and your powerful 4 drops can make a difference. I don't feel that SDT is not worth a slot because I find that I can survive the early game with proper mulligans and tight plays. This is another situation where I feel a card is a crutch that you'll find you do not need when you play correctly. But just to be clear, I'm talking about builds that are not running Counterbalance, because in that scenario, obviously the Divining Top has a very clear cut job.
I atleast have seem to hit a wall, creatively speaking with regards to UWx Landstill. The latest tech I have been running was Envelop in my SB. It pretty much sealed up every combo deck in the format but I am seeing far less combo lately and almost every other round is some kind of mana denial aggro control deck. Landstill vs an unknown meta is becoming increasingly difficult to win with. It seems aggro and aggro control decks have gained an incredible number of cards recently while the latest gain control has really recieved was Path to Exile and that card has cost me more than one game over the last few months. Combo hasn't gained anything huge or unbeatable but there numerous combo decks in the format all of whitch require their own preparation to beat. (Although Envelop really hits like everything out there if you sit and think about it for awhile).Quote:
Originally Posted by ChiiMagic
Our tools are becoming outdated and outclassed. Spell pierce has gained alot of main deck popularity and paired with Wasteland has denied me numerous top 8's recently. I don't believe Landstill is gone by any means but Wasteland has practically become Strip Mine in the current Legacy format; you are punished for playing non basics and then Iona rapes you for playing single color decks or single color removal decks. Any build can be tweaked to beat anything in the format but gone seems to be the days where you could beat every deck in the format. Personally I am trying to work on a build that runs a full sweeper such as Disk in a UW build. It seems solid but also too slow at times. Unfortunately unless you pretty much know what you are going to be playing VS Landstill is becoming a poor meta choice.
It had been a frustrating 2-3 months now playing Landstill. I am interested in seeing what you do with a UW Disk build; when we spoke briefly at the GP I mentioned that at my local before the event I had taken an experimental list with 2 MD Disk and finished 3-1, losing in the last round of swiss to Zoo. Sadly for me my locals do not go into T4, so no ability to get more sampling in. Disk is incredibly strong but also a lot more fragile than say, Wrath of God or even Humility, and with Qasali Pridemage /// Krosan Grip, it was awkward to cast and then hope for the best. Although the card is powerful, I am a little torn on teetering the future of this archetype on it.Quote:
Originally Posted by konsultant
Looking back, if I could do it again, my biggest problem was deciding where Disk should be in the 75, perhaps if was a mistake putting it in the MD (especially against Zoo, I had way too many 4cc cards as compared to the previous builds I was playing, and got destroyed before I could stabilize). Would definitely be a good choice against Show and Tell, etc. Personally, I'm just waiting for control to gain something that is playable outside of Standard.
I have sold all of my cards, but now I plan to go back into magic. My deck of choice is Landstill.
Money is a big issue though. So I'm looking for ways to make the deck cheaper.
One of my ideas is to replace that lone Elspeth with the fourth DoJ. 2x Humility ensure that DoJ is a lategame bomb of the same powerlevel as Elspeth. My main board sweeper package is 1 WoG + 2 Humility. As Humility may get worse post board I plan to put Firespout, Perish or something like that into my SB as alterntive sweepers.
What about Sacred Mesa?
Any suggesttions? I haven't bought the cards yet.
4 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta
4 Tundra
2 Tropical island/Volcanic Island
2 Island
2 Plain
4 Mishra's Factory
3 Wasteland
1 Eternal Dragon
4 Decree of Justice
3 Standstill
3 Fact or Fiction
4 Brainstorm
3 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Path to Exile
3 Engineered Explosives
1 Wrath of God
2 Humility
4 Force of Will
4 Counterspell
This. Round after round you're facing the Wasteland/Vial decks, and I needn't to explain how painful it is, being wastelanded twice, unable to hit your 4th land, sitting with all these 4cc bombs and even if you manage you're getting dazed or pierced. I lost numerous games to Wasteland/cheap counters. Seriously, you need like 7-8 landdrops now to cast any 4cc spell. You're not getting there, either you can't topdeck the lands forever, or die long before that.Quote:
Originally Posted by konsultant
My thoughs go in direction of revamping the manabase to run basics only (or 2-3 duals at most). That requires some sacrifices in the card choices, obviously dropping Standstill (and counterspells for its double U cost) turning it into some kind of UW Ultimate Walker. You are immune to Wasteland, but basics don't exactly solve issues when you really want duals. Perhaps it'll work, I haven't yet tried the approach in tournaments though.Quote:
I don't believe Landstill is gone by any means but Wasteland has practically become Strip Mine in the current Legacy format; you are punished for playing non basics and then Iona rapes you for playing single color decks or single color removal decks. Any build can be tweaked to beat anything in the format but gone seems to be the days where you could beat every deck in the format. Personally I am trying to work on a build that runs a full sweeper such as Disk in a UW build. It seems solid but also too slow at times. Unfortunately unless you pretty much know what you are going to be playing VS Landstill is becoming a poor meta choice.
I've been messing with my build on and off and I'm in a place that I think I like as far as things go with the deck. I need to have some more testing before I'm satisfied but this is what I've been kicking around.
Instant[20]
4 Brainstorm
3 Counterspell
1 Fact or Fiction
4 Force of Will
2 Path to Exile
2 Spell Snare
4 Swords to Plowshares
Sorcery[6]
1 Day of Judgment
2 Decree of Justice
2 Vindicate
1 Wrath of God
Enchantment[5]
2 Humility
3 Standstill
Artifact[3]
1 Crucible of Worlds
2 Engineered Explosives
Planswalker[3]
2 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
1 Jace, The Mind Sculptor
Land[23]
1 Academy Ruins
4 Flooded Strand
2 Island
4 Mishra's Factory
2 Marsh Flats
2 Plains
1 Scrubland
3 Tundra
1 Underground Sea
2 Wasteland
1 Volcanic Island
I know its a little lighter on land than is usually preferred but I always found myself not drawing into enough business with landstill. I really like vindicate in the main because it helps the control mirror and is great removal all around. I'm not huge on jace so there's a 1:1 split with FoF which I like just as much. I've been iffy with this because of how hard it is to just get things out against anything running blue but I feel comfortable with this build and it feels pretty tight as is.
I think it's interesting that you prefer FOF over another Jace TMS, because I went in the opposite direction with my list. I cut my last FOF for my 2nd Jace TMS. My reasoning was that both of these cards are 4 drops and both are amazing topdecks. I find that Jace is an engine to drive through the rest of the game and will win the game on its own. Where I feel that FOF is just a card that all I would want it to find is my Jace.
Any particular reasons why you like the way you have it?
What match-ups does jace the mind sculpter shore up?Quote:
Originally Posted by ChiiMagic
what match-ups does fact or fiction shore up?