Just a 2 for 1? It usually isn't worth it to do it on a SFM, but an active Delver, sure.Quote:
Originally Posted by Philipp802
That's not even Darkblast's primary purpose. I just see it as an added benefit to it.
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Just a 2 for 1? It usually isn't worth it to do it on a SFM, but an active Delver, sure.Quote:
Originally Posted by Philipp802
That's not even Darkblast's primary purpose. I just see it as an added benefit to it.
Darkblast can also kill even bigger creatures, if you choose to Dredge via Ponder/Brainstorm/Jace's draw. It's not a great play of course, but it's there for desperate situations.
Yeah, that's why Pierce and Stifle aren't great here. I tried UBnaught too, but it wins game 1 and that's it pretty much :)Quote:
Originally Posted by Tombstalker
I really wish we could find a replacement for Goyf, so we could go UBr and use bolts. We would be less exposed to Submerge too. WotC: please print a red goyf!
I'm actually considering 2 Pulse in the main. Maybe as a replacement for the two random Pierces. I know, after what I said, I'm starting to put cc3 in my list... however, I really want to keep it to a minimum. That would solve my problem of removals too, and works a bit like the bounces RUG used to play.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tombstalker
Btw, have you tested Disfigure? it's is better than what people think, especially coupled with Snuff Out. It really works like bolts on creatures. I still think that removals should cost 0 or 1 in this deck. Believe me, it's worth testing in a known field (RUG/Mav/Blade).
@Everyone: Yes I know I can double Darkblast an X/2 on my upkeep and in my draw step, or after a cantrip. It's just a terrible play.
You see Nic I told you pulse is good in the main.
:) I just said I was considering it. At the moment I stick with 2 Spell Pierce MD, especially with Show And Tell not being banned. The deck would need pulse MD if we face too many Miracle.decks maybe.Quote:
Originally Posted by Slayer
3cc is really awful for the tempo, when we want to daze or use wasteland after dropping a threat. Tbh, I'm wondering if Echoing Truth wouldn't be better...
Imho Truth does not realy solve the prob though.
From the testing I've done, I've found that while discard effects are good, they also mess with our tempo plan. It is mostly not because we play slightly bigger cards that we are slower than Canadian Thresh, it is because we play discard. We thoughtseize our opponent, they stifle their first land or play a 1 drop. In one case, the opponent loses a card, in another case, they are behind on their land drops, and are farther away from casting this card that TA thoughtseizes anyways. If we thoughtseize them and then daze something, they are actually behind on mana, and we still don't have a threat out yet! And while Hymn to Taurach is an amazing card, it is an even worse tempo loss. Trying to resolve it against Canadian Thresh through Wasteland, Daze, Spell Pierce, and Force, all while they develop a board presence that is hard to deal with, is ridiculous. I think the best way to play this deck as a tempo deck is to take out the discard, since it absolutely does not mix with the tempo plan at all. It clashes with counters and inhibits the development of our board presence. I think a better plan is to rely on counters and removal and just forget about discard effects.
But then we ask: why black then over red? First of all, hard removal: ghastly demise, in particular, is almost perfect. If you go the nimble mongoose/thought scour plan instead of tombstalker, then you have a deck that works extremely well with ghastly demise, and then you basically get to play a 1 mana removal spell that hits anything. And the second reason to run black: dark confidant. He's low on the curve, so he works well with daze, and he gives our deck an engine. He can take over the game on his own and gets you a lot more threats and disruption as the game goes on than your opponent can handle. People might think he's too slow but if you think that then why do winning Affinity lists play him in Modern?
Thoughtseize might have a place in the board (for more disruption), but as far as the Main goes, I think counters do the job just fine - they provide Canadian Thresh with enough disruption and they can for us too. The best plan for the board may be to have 4 thoughtseize in there and against decks like sneak-n-tell and put them in for your removal.
Finally, I think snuff out doesn't work in this meta. It is too terrible against Canadian THresh to be what we reliably want. Ghastly demise is simply better if you forgo TOmbstalker, and I think that is what the deck should do. YOu get more synergy, and Nimble Mongoose is often better than Stalker anyways, it seems. I love snuff out, but the life loss right now is just too much, I think.
These are just ideas but I think this deck might be what Team America needs to do well in this meta: a better tempo plan (counters give tempo, not discard), hard removal, and more resiliency (in the form of dark confidant, which gives you an engine). Having done this, we have a deck that is more tempo-oriented than the old Team America which played discard, but less so than Canadian Thresh, since we don't play stifle, and we do play dark confidant. Here's an example list:
4 delver of secrets
3 nimble mongoose
4 tarmogoyf
4 dark confidant
4 force of will
3 daze
4 spell pierce
3 ghastly demise
1 dismember
4 brainstorm
4 ponder
2 thought scour
4 wasteland
4 underground sea
2 tropical island
1 bayou
4 polluted delta
4 misty rainforest
1 verdant catacombs
Other things the deck might want to do: Dark Confidant may not be necessary. 1-2 Maelstrom Pulse might be good. A singleton darkblast? a 4th daze?
WHat do people think? DOes this potentially give a new direction for TA? People may say the deck needs discard, but Canadian Thresh doesn't, so why should we? THe absence of discard is the main idea behind this version of the deck. Black has other things to offer, so we don't need to say that we just shouldn't play black if we don't play discard. Also, it should be remembered that black gives much better sideboard options than red does.
Thoughseize can generate Tempo, by taking th exact piece in your controler's hand which will slow them down (their main threat or their removal depending on the MU). Thoughseize only fights with one card with the deck: Delver. I agree that an opening hand with Thoughseize+Delver isn't ideal, but Tombstalker and Goyf comes in only t2/3/4, so Thoughseize is perfect for them.Quote:
Originally Posted by rchinnock
One could argue the same thing for Stifle: Stifle prevents you from dropping your Delver t1, so it kinds of fight with it since you have to keep a mana open when your opp doesn't use his fetch immediatly. A good player will also probably fetch at your upkeep, which will make you waste a bit of time since you can't play a threat on the same turn.
So I think Thoughseize is good enough in Tempo, as long as it doesn't fight with too many pieces on your decks (it would probably be different if we were running 12 Delvers). On the other hand, I think Hymn is probably not good enough in Tempo, since it requires to tap for 2 mana, doesn't give much information about the cards it doesn't hit, and might miss a piece which can slow you down a lot (a removal for instance).
Now for your list: I understand what you're trying to do, but imho Bob isn't a Tempo card. It's a card which generates CA, but makes you lose tempo (you tap for 2 for something with no immediat effect, and he is probably not a good beater, compared to Tombstalker for instance). Tempo is about speed way before CA. That's why I don't like Sylvan Library in a Tempo oriented build too. Having said that, they can be very good in more control builds. Also, if you want to play Tempo, I would keep 4 Daze.
Feel free to disagree and shout at me if I missed your point :)
Well, you are right that at times thoughtseize provides tempo, but often they will just play something else instead of what you discarded, so its often not tempo. And you are right about stifle sometimes losing you tempo. However, I still have some objections.
My main problem with thoughtseize besides the fact that it is a tempo loss unless you play it on the first turn and also don't have delver, is that it its just one more card that is a bad topdeck. In the list I posted the only really bad topdecks are some of the counters (daze, sometimes spell pierce) but aside from that everything else is typically good throughout the game. I think we might have enough disruption without discard that it makes more sense to go a little bigger than Canadian THresh and do somehting else with our black slots.
As for bob - you play him in addition to your critters, so its not really him vs. other creatures, unless you want to play him first. If you just play your other creatures first then you don't realy lose tempo from him - if that's what you're concerned with, or you can play him first if its a more card-advantage-centered/grindy matchup. Basically the main reason for him is that he simply is very powerful, and you don't run less creatures, so he does't really clash with your tempo plan.
I do see why thoughtseize is good, but I think that another legitimate way to make the deck is to cut it and go with more creatures and counters. Again - BOb was played in affinity, which is literally an all-in deck - I don't think he mixes poorly with aggressive strategies necessarily, but maybe I'm wrong. He isn't a super fast clock but he still can attack, and he gets you a lot more threats, removal, counters, etc.
I played something fairly similar yesterday but I had -1 Goyf, -1 Land (Fetch), -1 Ponder, -2 Scour (this card is SO fucking bad), +1 Removal, +1 Daze and +4 Stifle. I also played 2/2 Snare/Pierce instead of 4 Pierce because my metagame is always 50% UWx.Quote:
Originally Posted by rchinnock
The deck was decent and fun to play with but I lost twice to my Confidant against TES and generally missed the reach Bolts provide in RUG. I am pretty sure that some kind of discard would be decent. Overall I am pretty sure that this might be a decent route to go because Confidant is generally as good as it has always been. The Stalker lists are only good against decks which are unable to remove or bounce your creatures (=Combo) and suck pretty hard against anything playing Snapcaster + Swords.
WHat about the following list, which does play thoughtseize/inquisition:
4 delver of secrets
3 nimble mongoose
4 tarmogoyf
4 dark confidant
3 force of will
3 daze
3 spell pierce
2 thoughtseize
2 inquisition of kozilek
3 ghastly demise
1 dismember
4 brainstorm
4 ponder
4 wasteland
4 underground sea
2 tropical island
1 bayou
4 polluted delta
4 misty rainforest
1 verdant catacombs
You play the discard, at the cost of a force, a spell pierce, and 2 thought scours... You could also play discard at the expense of your dark confidants but I do suspect that they give the deck another angle of attack which is powerful and also cool. I'm still suspicious of the discard but ... yeah I'll at least consider it :) It seems to me like one essential point is that were not tempo as much as Thresh is, so we shouldn't try to be. We don't play burn ... So if were not trying to be as tempo-based, maybe something like Bob becomes good for us. We go a little bigger than THresh, we have the same amount of disruption, just less reach, and yet we have a real card advantage engine in bob that they don't have.
Those lists are dark thresh which if pretty different but cool all the same. I like DT but IME it just isn't that good. Reasons are without burn it lacks a fast enough clock and removal density and bob dies to burn and chumps. Its fun though which is the number 1 goal, at least to me.
Regarding discard vs counterspells, are you guys serious? TA fucking wrecks face on combo and discard/stalkers are a big part of why. Stalkers also trump burn/rug race Mav and laugh at counterbalance. Hand disruption is great, better than conditional countermagic. Take their best card instead of countering only what they let you see. Ya hymn sucks otd and sometimes otp so board it out or change it for more 1cc discard but don't drop the disruption package altogether. Also the 1cc discard count is so that the deck has a high probability of aggressive t1 plays often with counter backup and free removal to swing tempo, delver>TS> ponder.
Many of the benefits and drawbacks are inherent to the color and strategy but rug this is not.
I have messed with this deck a little bit, as I was tired of losing to combo decks with RUG. Currently, I am not a real big fan of Dark Confidant. It would seem to me that he is just too easy to deal with for nearly every deck out there. Don't get me wrong, he is a great card. I think I would just rather play something else in its place.
It seems like no one likes Dark COnfidant nowadays. He's always been really good for me, but he is small its true. However, you have discard and counters so he should be able to dodge removal a lot of the time, and when he does, he'll likely win you the game. Drawing two cards a turn is pretty damn powerful: you get more counters, more creatures, more removal, more wastelands. I think he should be tested to see if he is as awkward as everyone seems to think he is, since I've never really had bad experiences with him. Even with an old stoneblade list that I used to play a lot against my friend's Zoo deck, Bob would often live with my counters and discard, and if he did die, he would save the next creature I played so it didn't really matter. And even if he only lives one turn he is already a two-for-one. After 2 or 3 turns it can be hard for your opponent to come back from the card advantage you've gained. And finally, he is still a beater. Even if they do have creatures out (and you should often be able to keep their board clear with counters, removal, and discard), he's only a chumper if they're holding their own creatures back. But if they ARE holding their creatures back, that means they're not attacking, and you're drawing extra cards every turn (hopefully burying them in card advantage). If they aren't keeping creatures back, then he attacks just fine like other critters, even if he is small.
rchinnock - I appreciate what yourself and others are trying to do with this deck. Theoretically, Team American or BUG Tempo or BUG Delver (whatever you want to call it) should be beating ass in the current meta. It has discard and counterspells and a quick clock vs. combo, it has the same plus creature sacrificing effects vs. Sneak and Show and reanimator, it has targeted and mass removal vs. Maverick (Perish, Darkblast, Ghastly Demise, Dread of Night, Engineered Plague on Humans, etc.), and it has enough threats that it should be albe to find more threats than Control has answers (Delver and Mongoose, specifically.
However, the results don't really show that and I think that's what's got everyone a little stumped.
Regarding your quote...
This assumes all creatures are held back or all attack. Against a deck like Goblins, Maverick, even RUG, they could easily swing with 1-2 creatures and leave 1 back to chump Dark Confidant.Quote:
Originally Posted by rchinnock
Also, I question playing Force of Will with Dark Confidant (at least we're not playing Tombstalker). While I think FOW is necessary in this meta, a few bad flips with DC can literally be suicide. Brainstorm and Ponder help to even this out. Also, chances are not high that we will flip FOW with DC, but it is still a consideration.
Sensei's Divining Top? It goes against the Tempo package, but RUG was running it for a while. Counterbalance would be interesting out of the board (with SDT, of course). It would certainly help shore-up the Burn MU and help guarantee Dark Confidant flips <=1.
Again, Bob and Top are great cards, but they aren't Tempo cards. The reason why some RUG lists where playing Countertop was because they wanted to play control in the mirror MU
I couldn't agree more.Quote:
Originally Posted by Tombstalker
Guys, would you recommend some TA brew in an aggro/tribal meta ? I'm expecting at least 1 Merfolk, 1 Goblin and 1-2 Combo Elves in a 20 player event this weekend. Combo decks not present (maybe 1 Belcher and/ or 1 Reanimator) and I'm expecting very few blue based control as well (I'm traditionally the Landstill / Dreadstill / Bug Still player, so...:laugh: ). The rest of the meta will be full of the strange/ bad archetypes that Legacy has such as Pox, Cephalid Breakfast, Bant Hexproof , Affinity, Burn etc.
I was thinking of metagaming this list.
Creatures [8]
4 Snapcaster Mage
4 Tarmogoyf
Istants [18]
3 Diabolic Edict
3 Spell Snare
4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Ghastly Demise
Sorceries [6]
1 Life from the Loam
1 Ponder
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
Planeswalkers [5]
2 Liliana of the Veil
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
Lands [23]
1 Bayou
1 Creeping Tar Pit
1 Island
1 Swamp
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Verdant Catacombs
3 Tropical Island
4 Polluted Delta
4 Underground Sea
4 Wasteland
Which is Joao Akverrinho's list which top4'ed BOM 6 trial.
Basically I'm keeping 6 removals md package ( but splitting 3 Ghastly + 3 Diabolic edict as I just fear the random Mongooses and Bant Hexproof) and the 2 Lilianas, which should perform nicely both in the aggro and in the control matchup (If I should happen to have one).
Then I thought of removing Ponder and 1 Ghastly in favor of 2 Deeds ( once we drop a Deed, we can easily switch to BUG Walker mode). I'll also play some basics to reduce the risk vs. Burn.
I'm keeping Snare over Pierce md as they are better in the aggro mu.
The list is a blend of the two versions of TA, but since I'm playing 8 Creatures (4 of which are Goyfs) I posted in the aggro thread.
That's what my list looks like.
4 Wasteland
4 Usea
2 Trop
2 Bayou
3 Basics (1 of each)
8 U in color Fetchlands
4 Snapcasters
4 Goyf
4 Fow
3 Snare
4 Bs
6 Removals ( 3 Demise + 3 Diabolic)
4 IoK
2 Deed
3 Jtms
2 Liliana
1 Loam
sb will be something like
2 Pierce (no need for the third as Control mu will be rare)
4 instant grave hate (2 Extirpate + 2 Surgicals probably)
2 Nature's claim (all around answer to Choke, B2B etc...)
3 Nourish ( Burn)
4 E plague
Thoughts?
I think you're probably not looking at it right if you are looking at a hand with Delver/Mongoose and Thoughtseize and are thinking that the Thoughtseize is competing with your 1-drop creature.
Ideally, you lead with the aggressive 1-drop and have a Daze/FoW/Snuff Out/Dark Blast/Ghastly Demise for their follow-up then use the Thoughtseize t2 to steal their next play (that you couldn't otherwise answer). I agree that Thoughtseizing them t1 with an empty board doesn't really get you very far.
The alternative would be if you kept a hand without a 1-drop creature but had a Goyf. Then I could see running out the Thoughtseize t1. However, Ponder or leaving up Brainstorm/Snare/Pierce might still be a stronger play.
Where Canadian Thresh turns its removal into burn during the mid-game, Dark Thresh makes up for its lack of reach with more effective mid/late-game removal and by stripping their stabilization spells with Thoughtseize.
Stifle doesn't seem as strong here as in RUG and I would be inclined to maximize Daze/FoW/Pierce/Thoughtseize instead.
Re: [DTB] Team America (Aggro/Tempo Thread)
rchinnock - I appreciate what yourself and others are trying to do with this deck. Theoretically, Team American or BUG Tempo or BUG Delver (whatever you want to call it) should be beating ass in the current meta. It has discard and counterspells and a quick clock vs. combo, it has the same plus creature sacrificing effects vs. Sneak and Show and reanimator, it has targeted and mass removal vs. Maverick (Perish, Darkblast, Ghastly Demise, Dread of Night, Engineered Plague on Humans, etc.), and it has enough threats that it should be albe to find more threats than Control has answers (Delver and Mongoose, specifically.
However, the results don't really show that and I think that's what's got everyone a little stumped.
Regarding your quote...
Quote Originally Posted by rchinnock View Post
Even if they do have creatures out (and you should often be able to keep their board clear with counters, removal, and discard), he's only a chumper if they're holding their own creatures back. But if they ARE holding their creatures back, that means they're not attacking, and you're drawing extra cards every turn (hopefully burying them in card advantage). If they aren't keeping creatures back, then he attacks just fine like other critters, even if he is small.
This assumes all creatures are held back or all attack. Against a deck like Goblins, Maverick, even RUG, they could easily swing with 1-2 creatures and leave 1 back to chump Dark Confidant.
Also, I question playing Force of Will with Dark Confidant (at least we're not playing Tombstalker). While I think FOW is necessary in this meta, a few bad flips with DC can literally be suicide. Brainstorm and Ponder help to even this out. Also, chances are not high that we will flip FOW with DC, but it is still a consideration.
Sensei's Divining Top? It goes against the Tempo package, but RUG was running it for a while. Counterbalance would be interesting out of the board (with SDT, of course). It would certainly help shore-up the Burn MU and help guarantee Dark Confidant flips <=1.
That's true about the attacking/blocking thing, but most decks don't have a ton of creatures, and even if they hold one back, that's less damage than you would be taking. You also have removal so you might be able to pick that blocker or their one attacking creature off, getting a tempo advantage on them. Also, the FOW/Dark confidant thing has never been a problem for me. Even without 8 cantrips it wasn't - with just brainstorm it was usually fine. THe most that you usually hit is one FOW, if you hit any, and you can usually live through it just fine, unless your opponent plays a lot of burn (like UR delver deck or something, which is obviously a terrible MU for us).
Regarding Sensei's Divining Top - I think playing one or two could actually be cool, depending on how aggro yo uwant to be. It sets delver up and is good with Dark Confidant too. And it would definitely help with the RUG matchup. THen again, so would Sylvan Library - maybe we could play one of each. THose could also be sideboard cards for the RUG matchup, since they help you fight through their land destruction and to play the control deck. Another good sideboard card for the RUG matchup would be life from the loam, and crucible of worlds, too, I think.
And YEAH! COunterbalance is a cool idea. Maybe even maindeck - a BUG counterbalance deck? Or maybe not... It could be neat though.
Caleb Durward built a BUG counterbalance deck, but it was more an off-shoot of Nic Fit. Probably not appropriate for this thread, as it was more mid-range than tempo. I'll post the link when I find it.
EDIT:
Here is a link to the article: http://www.channelfireball.com/artic...nk-countertop/
This deck is a BUG Control / Nic Fit hybrid, so it's not appropriate for discussion in this thread, but it shows how Countertop can be added into a BUG shell.
I think there was also a deck tech covering this deck on one of the SCG tournament write-ups, but I couldn't find it, but I also didn't look too hard. If someone finds it, PM me and I'll add it here. Thanks!