and with changed meta is goblin pyromancer now worth a slot anywhere? a surprise weapon or too slow and risky?
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and with changed meta is goblin pyromancer now worth a slot anywhere? a surprise weapon or too slow and risky?
That actually sounds pretty funny!
First strike trigger with WInstigator => Pyromancer
Now all my goblins hit for 4 or 5. GG
The problem with this trick is:Quote:
Originally Posted by Ace/Homebrew
you need 2 WInstigator and a Matron in hand for it to work properly.
If you have 1 WInstigator which is not getting blocked (which is allready a good sign that you're winning), you need the Pyromancer in your hand, but in (nearly) each other moment you dont want to have it. Only for a situation like this (and a few others), since most of the time it's a worse card than say Kiki/SGC/Sparksmith (I like the last one a lot actually).
So let's say you're lucky, not drawing it, having 2 WInstigator attacking and a Matron in Hand and no one get's blocked... do you really need the Pyromancer to win this game?
Out of the rare situations where you allready have a lot of Goblins in play AND topdeck him, hes a win-more card. Well you could cast Matron & Vial him in, or the other way around, which makes him slighty useful, but I dont think I want to search for him often. (Well versus Combo he could make it).
I agree with everything above, except the very last line. Against combo you need basically 5 attacking goblins T3 to win with a Pyromancer. Goblins already has a way to do this, and it's Lackey->SGC, Piledriver T2. Pyromancer does what Piledriver and Cheiftain already do but at a higher cost and with a much larger drawback. Piledriver is better against combo any day of the week.Quote:
Originally Posted by Holly
I have tested 20 and 21 lands. With zero ports I found 20 pretty acceptable. I have no idea what is correct, but as a goblin player I think you should be aggressively mulling most hands, looking for a turn 1 lackey/ vial play or a turn two MWM or Instigator 'chain' with plays at the 3-4 drop. So having a light land count with the ability to mull correctly was never really something I worried about too much.Quote:
Originally Posted by jrw1985
I built the deck with three intentions in mind. 1) Be able to beat a stoneforge and Jitte/Batterskull 2) Dont fold to a StP and 3) Be able to beat burn.
I tested a ton of different options, and felt it needed more lackeys. With instrigators being lackeys 5 and 6, ports loses so much value. I kept getting caught with the 8 non basics. So once I dropped the ports, I tried chieftains because of the heavy red, and I immediately found I had a much better match up against burn with these additions, and lackey would not die to SfM.
As for the GY hate, I dont like leyline. I brought in surgical extraction against esper stoneblade, I brought in one relic against maverick, and two relics against RUG. I just felt Leyline was too narrow.
Anyways, my games went.
Game 1 Esper Stoneblade 2-0
Game 2 G/W/B Goyf with Lingers Souls 2-0
Game 3 Re-animator 2-1
Game 4 Maverick (the feature one) 2-0
Game 5 Maverick 2-1
Game 6-7 Draws
Top 8
Semis Esper Stoneblade 2-1
Quarter Finals Storm 1-2
Obviously my last matchup was pretty disappointing.
I felt like I played the Storm matchup pretty well. I had play tested it quite a few times before the match, and knew exactly what I was looking for game 1. In game 3, I got 0 lands on my 6th,5th, and 4th mull, so those were no brainers. As for setting chalice at 0 or 1. On the play game 2, I am pretty sure it is almost always correct to set it at 0. I have tried to set it at 1, and got it durressed or thoughtseized enough to realize that it probably was a mistake.
Anyways, feel free to ask any other questions. For changes in the mainboard sideboard, I would change nothing. I wanted more time to test with a 1 of settler, but really felt running less than two tuk tuk was just asking for trouble. As for the worst cards in deck, sharpshooter sucks in a ton of matchups. But feel it is a necessary evil. And piledriver really disappoints. I sided out piledrivers in probably 75% of my matchups.
First off, congratulations! Excellent play.Quote:
Originally Posted by mrblueduck
My list lately is somewhat similar. So I'd like to offer some feedback on Settler.
-1 Sharpshooter (in the board)
-2 MWM
-1 WI (like this as a one of)
-2 Bolt (see no reason not to be on Tarfire right now)
-2 Pyrokinesis (in the board, again)
+1 Settler (!)
+2 Ports (I like at least 22 land, six colorless probably better than 7)
+1 Stingscourger (I always want a second)
+2 Tarfire
+1 Chaos Warp (Random answer to any troublesome permanent)
+1 Warchief (5th haste source)
(I think I'm missing one card, but close enough. Edit: 3 Tarfires and 3 Vials currently. Fourth Vial in the board to bring in when needed. Extra removal when not.)
The Settler is occasionally awesome, but often gets boarded out for something more appropriate. It seems best as an intimidation tactic. Scary off a Lackey to destroy the basic they just fetched. Attrition later in the game to support the mana denial angle. Demoralizing when you can build a one-sided Armageddon.
I love the card. It is cool to play. Maybe not the best, though.
As an aside, I want to play a deck with 4x Heartless Summoning, 4x Settlers, and 4x Gardeners. 12 Sinkholes.dec
Hey mrblueduck, congrats on the finish. Just got two quick questions for you.
1. You say sharpshooter was really bad for you, but it seems as though it would be very good against Maverick and anything with Lingering Souls. Was he effective in those matchups? Or was it too slow? If you don't like him in the main, would you consider boarding him?
2. The choice of Chieftain over Warchief seems like an uncommon choice. How did he perform for you? Did you ever find yourself with things stuck in your hand? And did the pumps matter? Would you like to try fitting some number Warchiefs in the main?
Yea I just wanted to test settler more. It could be win-more syndrome, but there are several times I wish I had access to close a game via matron to settler. As for tarfire, I don't really mind it too much. I think its actually really close which is better, but I gave the edge to lightning bolt because that extra damage is often relevant turn 2 or 3 when kotr comes down.Quote:
Originally Posted by 1337erhosen
1) Sharpshooter wasn't really bad, it just isn't good in a lot of matchups. I won an entire match on the back of him 6 for 1ing lingering souls in round 2, and have used him in the past to beat up decks running bitterblossom and Dark Confidant. I just think with lingering souls getting a lot of attention, its necessary to run. However I don't think he is very good against Maverick, as mom will almost always come down earlier, and he cant really kill anything else. So there is some serious limitations with him. I would keep him in the main until tom's deck fades. I however did find myself in really unique situation where I would of won a game in response to a fetch by pyrokensising 4 of my own creatures and activating sharpshooter 5 times. Instead he scoops, as he couldn't combo out. That win would of been epic.
2) I don't mind either builds, I have played the warchief version for around a year, playing it in my first ever competitive tournament, with good results at Knight Ware. Here is my list there.
http://www.mtgdecks.net/decks/view/16612
However after testing alot, I think the Chieftain version is better right now. You get more value out of smaller goblins, and makes it easier to run Instigator, which allow you to cheat in bigger drops that you would cast with Warchief. Out of all the matches, I only got trapped with bigger cards one game. Top 8, game 2. I kept a vial, lackey lackey hand. And my vial/ackey hand walked into an Enginereed Explosives then Batterskull and immetiately after Jitte Yea I took a beating that game.
I was also wondering about MD pyrokinesis. Can't think of how many games I've matroned for Tarfire, 'cause I had only 1 mana open. I also had bad results with Sharpshooter in the last times, that's why I moved him to SB.
I tested Kikki-Jikki with mixed results and also tried Goblin Tunneler, but got the feeling that they are win more cards and not really what I wanted...
Concerning Piledriver: I would hold fast on one, 'cause I tested lately a lot vs. Sneak Attack and figured that I could almost always race them preboard. When they cast show and tell you drop matron. In case of Emrakul you go for Stinger and when Progenitus his the board you grab Piledriver and seal the deal. Usually Sneak Attack comes to late and we can survive an Emrakul haster by saccing lands and goblin tokens ;)
I'm going to test a build with less than 22 lands and see how it works out for me, but usually i think we're pretty mana hungry and need to drop lands in the first rounds, especially when playing vs. maverick, 'cause they have Pridemage for vials.
Surprisingly i finally got to beat Pun. maverick lately with ScatmanX's list-thatnks for that!
Still playing with the thought of some black splash for warren weirding and perish.
First of all – congratulation on your result Brett – it’s really nice to see good performance of the deck with a similar choices to mine. Anyway I have some questions concerning your 75.
1. the 20 lands issue – ok I get the point – mulligan aggressively and count on cheat-into-play engine. Nevertheless it is still true that goblins is mana-hungry tribe. In my experience very often you need to have those 4-5 mana to win attrition game. This is why you need to be able to drop the land every turn. With 20 lands it’s almost impossible to achieve. When I played warchief-port route I played 23 with good results and I had also saw 24 lands builds. Now with the chieftain/instigator we can drop those 1-2 lands but I think that 22 is absolutely minimum also to ensure low count of mulligan noland hand.
2. Anyway I also had noticed your idea to squeeze the land count to improve the synergy between MWM’s piledrivers and Gamepalm’s. I really like it. I dropped piledrivers and MWM’s completely but I need to rethink it again.
3. Sideboard: Zuran Orb brings more outs in the burn match. Anyway – this is still the race and you give them more targets for their Smash to Smithereens. I think the best way to win the game against Burn is to side out vials, bring in the chalices and beat them as fast as possible. Zuran Orb is also very narrow card and my predictions are that burn will slowly disappear from the meta.
4. Sideboard: Lack of Blood Moons – all espers, bants, rugs, pun-mavs will be in the bad shape when this enchantment resolves. I would drop those Orbs for Moons.
Wow! Congratulation on your nice finish!
1)I am looking at your list and was wondering how you managed to find space for Mogg War Marshal till I see you cut out 2 mountains and use 16R + 4 wasteland. I think it caused you to mull more than you like but maybe it is the way to go. I wanted MWM but just can't find space for them.
2)I like the idea of having pyrokinesis MD. I want more removal and pyrokinesis clears the board for the threats as it cost zero to cast. It solves alot of problems. I think I would try that too.
3)Sharpshooter is a star. He is not only there to deal with 1/1s. Remember you can ping for every creature that goes to the graveyard including your own and tokens. You can kill x/2 this way, and with tarfire, x/3 too. If you vial it in during combat(with chieftian, it changed the whole situation. It is good not only for tokens and elves but combat situations in general. I like him in the MD.
4)Kikki-Jikki, I feel is one of the most "advanced" goblin, to learn to play it correctly isn't easy as it is a match winner in the right hands. Lots of possibilities, piledriver, matron, chieftain, ringleader, lackey, *sharpshooter*, all potentially big plays. It won the Quarterfinals. :D
5)I think 2 Instigators is too few especially how well they worked with Chieftains. On Goblin Settler, it is great for lackey-->Settler but the chances are too low and we don't have the space to make such a situational play.
@mrblueduck I dunno if Challice of the Void is a good as you thought in game two. If he would have just thrown the 0 mana cards at the CotV he would have achieved seven cards in his yard earlier. Allowing him to Infernal Turor for (and play) Ad Nauseum thanks to active Cabal Rituals. It was something he didn't realize till after the tournament.
I've been a big proponent of Tarfire lately, mostly because I like being able to search one out with a Matron. Did you ever run into a situation where you really needed the burn and couldn't find one? Similarly, how does the Bolt/Pyro package affect your Ringleaders?Quote:
Originally Posted by mrblueduck
It seems others are also questioning 20 lands - I run 22 and that seems to be pretty stable for me. I can think of only one game with my most recent list where I ended up mana screwed, but I think that's simply due to variance and not an actual result. Do you find you're throwing back otherwise keepable hands due to needing lands?
2x Warren Instigator 2x MWM is interesting - how did you arrive at this split?
As for Piledriver, you mentioned that he was bad for you. I just wanted to point out that I've come to the same conclusion recently, and I've cut them completely from the main and side for the time being. So far I haven't encountered a situation where I've missed them.
Glad to see Kiki-Jiki got there for you. I tried it out for the first time last week and it was nothing short of amazing.
I used to HATE Leyline. I still do on some level since it is such a stupid card (Stragety: Mull to it or don't). But I don't think it's narrow, it just affects different decks differently. I've never been a fan of attacking the GY of decks with Snapcaster or KoTR/Goyf because those GY hate cards start looking pretty silly when your opponent goes the batterskull route. But against Dredge, Lands, Aggro Loam, and Reanimator Leyline is golden. My favorite Leyline game ever was when i was on the draw against Reanimator. I mulled to 3, Leyline, Lackey, Wasteland. Ripped a Mountain. T2 drew a SGC. Absolutley crushed my opponent. On the flip side, I realized just how much I hated it when I was on the draw against Survival, kept a strong Goblin-filled opener, then ripped Leyline as my 8th card and lost the game. It would have been an easy win had that Leyline been any othe GY hate card.Quote:
Originally Posted by mrblueduck
For the Storm matchup you would have been much better off running Leyline than Relic, but not necessarily better than Extraction. G2 your Extraction was huge, but G3 your opponent was able to get threshold easily and PIF ftw (if I recall). Leyline would have been better in that scenario, so I think it really has some value against combo that other gy hate cards don't.
Chalice @ 0 was absolutley the right play, since it just gets Duressed if you don't. That's still the biggest hurtin' against goblins in the combo MU: On the draw there is very little we can do to prevent our opponent from going off. You basically need 2 essentially free hate cards in your opening hand to be at all comfortable, and you need fast pressure to follow it up. In G2 against Storm you has like REB, Extraction, Chalice at 0 and two Wastelands in order to win it. A Leyline would have kept you alive longer G3, or a Mindbreak Trap would do too.
Enough blabbering from me. Congratulations again and well done!
CotV does not need to be answered. Something like Leyline of Sanctity does... CotV did not win him game 2... bad play by his opponent did.Quote:
Originally Posted by jrw1985
I disagree with you if you are implying Leyline of Sanctity deserves play over Chalice. Leyline doesn't do anything except keep them from killing you. Sure that seems good at face value, but it does nothing to stop a Storm deck from going off, drawing it's library, bouncing Leyline, and killing you. Chalice on the other makes them play around it while going off. Maybe the storm player made some bad plays G2, but if he was sitting across from a Leyline of Sanctity he woud have had been able to build the same storm count you're talking about but also have 4 extra mana to work with (from the resolved Petal and LED) and a clear like of play. That sounds like a path to game winning shennanigans. And maybe Chalice makes storm players think more, thereby increasing their chance of misplays, in ways that Leyline wouldn't.Quote:
Originally Posted by Avatara
Oh, and Leyline of Sanctity doesn't do much against Empty the Warrens or Elf Combo, and it can't really be used against slow combo like Enchantress. And you need to run 4 of it, so you can't really diversify your combo-hate. I guess it does hose Burn though.
I will say that Chalice isn't nearly as effective at 0 as it used to be. Every storm deck used to run 10-12 0 drops, now they're usually running 8 and more instants. But anything you keep in your hand will probably get stripped, especially if you're on the draw and don't plan on playing it until T2.
Everyone seems pretty concerned about my land count, and yes I mulled a ton. Was it because of my land count? I can't really say for sure, but I pretty much took at least once mulligan per match, and as a result set myself up with some pretty explosive hands. I really have no problem with 21 or 22 lands, and felt it was a shame my game 3 in the quarters went down like it did, because it is easy to just point to the lands that game and say 'I told you so'. That game I had a very solid 7 card hand, but it was almost unwinnable against storm, which triggered my painful mulligan to 3 after whiffs on lands. In my 100+ games of testing I never really experienced anything like that, and feel it is a tad unfair that my land count was to blame, when I felt I needed better answers to storm.
Another card people were questioning was Zuran Orb, as they were the only card from the side I never sided in. I had wanted them for U/R delver Pop and Burn. I don't believe burn brings in smash to smithereens against me, but I hold Zuran Orb in my hand until I hit 8-10 life anyways, to avoid that. This build is already a strong favorite over burn, and Zuran Orb really solidifies the match-up. I was expecting around 15-20% of the field to be burn, I was wrong. Would I take out Zuran Orb for next tournament? No, probably not.
Now for the question of Chalice at 0 or 1. Against tendrils chalice at 0 is always correct on the play. However, in this matchup, with only one land in hand, chalice at 0 was in my opinion also the correct play. The opponent almost always brings in discard effects game 2, he just never drew them. Its easy to reflect and say wow I should have done chalice for 1, since I ripped a land and he had no discard effects, but I still like chalice for 0, since it stranded a few cards in his hand, and with a few bs/preordains effects can make getting hellbent harder.
I don't mind running bolts or pyrokensis because of ringleader. Ringleader is fine, usually picks me up 2x cards every time, and never really cared if bolt went to the bottom instead of tarfire to hand.
The 2-2-2-3 split at the 2 drop was the most confusing and constantly changing part of the deck.
2 MWM, 2 Instigator, 2 Piledriver, 3 Gemplam.
I think 2 Instigator is correct. I found 3 too be to much, but variance is such a big issue after even 10-20 games, that who knows.
2 Piledrivers. You can't cut them, but you can go to a 1 of. I have found him useful enough to keep in 2, but don't mind 1. There are some matches where you just really really want him, so 1-2 is fine.
3 Gempalm. I don't think I have ever cast him as a 3 drop, ever. There are always unique situations where you should, but they have to be for lethal. I will cycle him for 0 dmg EOT before I cast him. 4 is a much better number, but I needed to make some cuts. And I always get this over tarfire. Just know when to use it, and how to response to StP, and it is much better.
2 MWM. Well this is my left overs. I have tried 0-4, and well had two spots open. I wanted to run 3 copies, but cuts had to be made. I was happy with 4, even though I almost never casted the spell this weekend.
As for other sideboard choices. I don't really like Chaos Warp. I think Anarchy is better in almost ever way, with the one exception of plague. I thought about blood moon, boil, anarchy, and a few other random choices, before settling on Anarchy. I never casted it in the tournament, but did in the official prelim tournament the night before. It can be ridiculously amazing, since no one has any idea it is coming.
Ok, I keep mulling this over, and it's occured to me that Leyline is pretty bad by itself, but it's pretty good if you can land it turn 0 and you have a 2nd piece of combo hate in hand. Since they generally need to bounce Leyline before killing you you have a turn or two extra to land a 2nd piece of hate, and they can't strip that hate in the meantime because you can't be targetted by discard effects. Since you generally need 2 pieces of Combo hate to really have a chance against Storm decks Leyline might be a really good option......Quote:
Originally Posted by Avatara
Just a thought.
It's good to hear that I'm not the only one with issues building this portion of the deck. I really like WInstigator, but like Lackey it's a terrible top deck late in the game. I may follow your lead and try cutting 1-2 and see where that takes me.Quote:
Originally Posted by mrblueduck
As for Piledriver, I'm not sure if 2, 1, or 0 is the "correct" number right now. When fish was widely played and a deck to beat, it was an easy 4-of. Now that Delver is essentially the only blue creature being played and Lightning Bolts are everywhere he's just too easy to deal with.
I've played Gempalm as a body before, but only when I need a blocker or a couple extra points of combat damage. I think 3 is fine, I've never desperately wanted or needed it in my opening hand, and generally drawing 1-2 per game is exactly what we need.
Of all the goblins I've cut recently, I'm starting to miss MWM the most. I definitely think there should be at least 1 copy in most lists...but 2 is probably more useful. The difficult part is going to be finding room.
I followed mrblueduck's with 16 mountains with 4 wastelands and pyrokensis.
Granted I played only about 10 games, it is actually not too bad. Especially if you have vial in the first 7. But it does cause some auto lost sometimes if you can't draw into a 2nd land quick enough when you start off with lackey, no vial. I traded in the 2 mountains for 2 MVM, btw.
Pyrokensis, I only maindeck 1. It is huge as it can come on as an instant, works nicely against Maverick. I think it should be given due consideration as 1-2 of in the MD. Piledriver, I would like to still include it as a 2-of but I can only squeeze in 1.
Is Chalice worth it in the sideboard, even it means taking out the vials and tarfire?