Printable View
Honestly, just play it the same way you normally would, only instead of fetching equipment, ditch your more situational dudes for better ones. And if you get the chance, Elesh Norn them.Quote:
Originally Posted by rukcus
I won so many games with Bant Survival (pre-Vengevine) just being an aggro deck with superior card selection, and this package seems to do the same thing. I hardly ever chained more than one activation, so this honestly doesn't seem much different.
I got a good share of my rating last year with somewhat this list. I wouldn't play it without Vengevines but I'm sure most of you will not include them. Now is a good time to switch Iona to Elesh Norn. Also, this list is from my first tournament with it and didn't include Gaea's Cradle but ever since it belongs here. Nowadays I would also think again the Stoneforge Mystics role in there as well as the equipment package. Two copies could be more solid.Quote:
Originally Posted by rukcus
You crush the blue decks and aggro decks so build the board accordingly.
4 Noble Hierarch
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Fauna Shaman
3 Mother of Runes
3 Qasali Pridemage
3 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Vengevine
2 Knight of the Reliquary
1 Loyal Retainers
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 Gaddock Teeg
4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Green Sun's Zenith
1 Umezawa's Jitte
1 Sword of Fire and Ice
3 Wasteland
4 Savannah
4 Windsept Heath
4 Horizon Canopy
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Karakas
1 Wooded Foothills
2 Forest
2 Plains
-Jace cannot beat Vengevine.
-Green Sun's Zenith into Shaman into Retainers into legend is so slow that you usually don't want to do that unless the opponent is topdecking.
-Zenith into Vengevine is solid and usually also faster than getting a knight (if you need to kill fast.)
-Only two Knights since you want Fauna Shaman and Vengevines to do their work first. If you still draw a knight, awesome.
- Your God hand is Mother + Fauna Shaman +your legendary bomb + enough mana.
-Builds with 20+ creatures, Retainers and bomby legends love Summoning Trap.
I tested it briefly last nite, and I'm unimpressed with the package. It takes up min 5 slots and gives you a marginal improvement in the mirror only in the late-game. All the other matchups where Elesh Norn is important are already good matchups.
I'm more excited about the Retainers/Fauna Shaman package due to Iona against the unfair decks however, since that actually shuts them down. Only trouble is that the deck is not geared to pump the combo out early enough to matter against those decks. The deck is a fragile, turn 4 Reanimator deck - and that's not impressive against Combo; and barely good against Burn.
I'm going to start working on an updated Maverick primer to reboot this thread. Would people be so kind as to email me some ideas or suggestions to include? Thanks.
First, some of the auto-includes and why they're auto-includes. Why does every list start with Knight, GSZ, Mom. What makes a Maverick deck a Maverick deck.
Then, IMO, one of the things that helps make primers is the grouping of "packages". So, SFM + Equipment is a package. It doesn't need to be played, but if you play it, you probably play a decent number of it. So, group SFM + Equip together and then the differences between equip, when to use each. Then, look at the other packages. IMO, FS + Elesh + Scryb is a package. You can play Scryb without FS, but you probably wouldn't play Elesh without FS and FS without Scryb.
Then, maybe some of the alternatives. What does Blue bring? What do Black or Red bring? What are the downsides to those?
Then maybe some sideboard choices, including different packages. Tutor + targets is a package. But how big.
In reality, there are relatively few choices people are making when deciding a Maverick list. But those can be very important. Teeg main? That's a lot different than Teeg in the board.
Just some thoughts.
Recently Todd Anderson published an article about this deck and talked about including a 3rd Ooze in the maindeck. What do you guys think ?
Personally it doesnt sound too terrible.
Ooze is solid enough to play a third one. I think if you choose to go that route, the third Ooze takes the place of one of the flex slots in the deck where generally you see things like Silhana Ledgewalker, Troll Ascetic, Eternal Witness, the third Pridemage, etc.
A third ooze will require u to run a cradle. There's no way around not running a cradle now.Quote:
Originally Posted by majikal
Why wouldn't you run a Cradle in the first place? That card is bonkers.Quote:
Originally Posted by Avatar of Shadow
ask Iscare why he doesn't...he also runs 2 baneslayer angels. Sadly, the rest of the cards in this deck is so powerful i cannot beat it with bant aggro.Quote:
Originally Posted by majikal
It boggles my mind that as soon as they added Fauna Shaman people cut a Ranger. I mean I guess the logic is that at that point it would be really obvious that you shouldn't pay an extra mana for the same effect + flying, and then the whole abominable lie would fall apart under its own weight.
@Majikal:
Because Gaea's Cradle is, in this deck, pretty much the emblematic bad player's favorite card; it is a card that is definitionally only good if you're already in a good position and does nothing, and is a Wasteland-able Forest or worse the rest of the time.
Elves wants it because the deck absolutely needs to play a lot of cards at once and hopefully an Emrakul or a really big Mirror Entity. This deck is, or at least should be, defined primarily by the independent strength of its cards. I mean if you're going to dilute that for Fauna Shaman- Elesh Norn, at least you're getting a very large upgrade in potential power out of it. Tutoring up a Gaea's Cradle so you can go insane with a Withered Wretch is not in the same neighborhood in terms of risk/reward ratios.
Who said anything about only using it to Ooze people? Yes, it's awesome when you can blow out their Knights, but most often it is used to cast an equipment and equip it in the same turn to break a stalemate, or accelerate into a 4 or 5-drop a turn or 2 early. Also I've won many, many games with it that otherwise I would have lost, simply by being able to Enlightened Tutor for an answer, draw it with Horizon Canopy, and then tutor up a Cradle to cast it in the same turn.Quote:
Originally Posted by TheInfamousBearAssassin
Even just playing it from your hand is bonkers. If it "only" makes 2 mana even once it's still amazing.
You probably have something to back that up besides your a bit silly obsession to want to do everything different than every winning list ever? It appears that everybody but you has different take on this, ergo everybody's bad but you, a position usually pursued by those known as arrogant jerks.Quote:
Originally Posted by TheInfamousBearAssassin
Do realize that if you do not get value out of something, it might also be because you don't usually see the best lines of play i.e. you might not be good enough. Not because your infrastructure sucks. You don't even seem to realize this possibility.
Cradle is even more effective if you play Vengevine. It ends games really fast.
Hi guys.
One question: given that Thalia is really powerful, and land Hierarch - Thalia Wasteland is game against many many decks, do you still think it makes sense to play Elspeth, especially as a one-of which is very randomical aside from not working well with a turn 2 Thalia? Wouldn't it be better to play more copies of gamebreaking creatures, like additional Oozes or even Thrun?
EDIT - Something like this:
4 Savannah
4 Wasteland
4 Windswept Heath
2 Forest
2 Wooded Foothills
1 Dryad Arbor
1 Gaea's Cradle
1 Karakas
1 Maze of Ith
1 Plains
1 Horizon Canopy
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Mother of Runes
4 Noble Hierarch
3 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Thalia, Guardian of Thraben
2 Qasali Pridemage
2 Scavenging Ooze
2 Scryb Ranger
2 Thrun, the Last Troll
1 Gaddock Teeg
4 Green Sun's Zenith
4 Swords to Plowshares
1 Sword of Body and Mind
1 Sword of Light and Shadow
1 Umezawa's Jitte
I think 2 Thrun MD is too much, probably 1 MD + 1 SB is better, instead of the second Thrun you could play the third Qasali or a 1x Sylvan Library!Quote:
Originally Posted by TehGems
I agree with you about Eslpeth but i think it's still a card to have in SB especially vs Nic-Fit!
Thalia is really strong, it increase our worst MU like Combo, giving us a strong G1 Winning condition! Infact i'm playtesting it a lot in the P.Fire version, and i'm really appreciating it! I know that Thalia clash with P. Fire but it's not so tragic, because those are Two card that are useful in different MU, so you just need to play them differently in G1 and eventually side-Out them out G2-G3, vs Aggro except for Burn that is pretty similar to a combo deck Thalia is near to be just a 2/1 bear with first strike so we can easely side out it, at the same wasy as P.Fire vs Combo are pretty useless and make space for Surgical and Canonist!
Anyone have tested too Thalia on GWr? Any impression or suggest?
Untrue.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hopo
I also advocate against Cradle. I think there is too much RUG Tempo around to run a land that is only better than Forest when you are in a good position anyway. To break stalemates, one runs Elspeth, and the trick with eTutor getting an answer, using Canopy to draw it and then Cradle to cast it is way too situational compared to the times your mana dude was killed and Cradle gave no mana at all and the situations where Cradle gave one mana and was then Wastelanded. That happens to me all the time. So I recommend more fetch and basics, so we have a mana base we can fully rely on.
If you play a single Cradle to tutor up, you shouldn't usually be in situations where you have a blank Cradle in play. If you really play it as a forest all the time with only one fragile creature in play, of course it ends up being mostly terrible.Quote:
Originally Posted by Asthereal
Elspeth can't realiably break stalemates as you have no way to find it. When you have it, it's really good, though.
Ignoring the desperate and pathetic attempts at ad hominem, lots of winning lists do not run Cradle; of the 2 lists that top 8'd at this past GP, for instance, one ran Cradle and the other did not. The one with Cradle didn't run SFM but did stick in 2x Jitte; in fact, the exact thing that I have advocated in this thread that puts me at odds with the majority of posters in this thread.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hopo
This is a forum for serious deck discussion and ridiculous appeals to the band wagon effect and lame attempts at poisoning the well by suggesting that any attempt at unorthodoxy is "arrogance" have no place.
@TehGems: I ran 2 Thrun when I ran straight G/W and always found it to be useful. The only matchups I really sided it out were against the unfair decks where it was just a vanilla 4/4. It certainly gives RUG and Blade Control nervous fits, much more so when you rawdraw it.
It's certainly worth thinking about the second Thrun, although space considerations may preclude it depending on what else you're trying to do.
Startling idea;Quote:
Originally Posted by Hopo
Play more Elspeths.
As a general rule I'm very suspicious of people that wax about how good a card is that they run as a one of and have no way to tutor for or find reliably, and is good outside of the very late game. This has some overlap with Scryb Ranger/Gaea's Cradle, although they are tutorable, because Scryb Ranger becomes a bit ridiculous over Quirion Ranger when you're getting it at instant speed anyway for three mana, and I don't see anyone clamoring for Quirion Ranger so I think they're just in love with the faerie, and Gaea's Cradle when you have an active Knight and the board to make it good becomes largely masturbatory; you should just go win instead or whatever you're doing to over commit to the board.
It certainly applies full force to lists running 1x Sylvan Library, 1x Elspeth.
What I hear from this is that bad deck builders really like having a card in certain situations, so they run a one of and hope not to draw it except when it's relevant. They remember the games they win because they drew it at the right time, and are obviously fully able to ignore the times when it didn't do anything, or when they would've won if they could've drawn it but it's a fucking one of so they can't get one in their first fifteen turns of futile praying.
General rule of thumb:
4x- Staple element of your deck, either a central win condition or key early game play, want to have it as reliably as humanly possible.
3x- Something you want every game but rapidly loses value in multiples.
2x- Something you want exactly once a game on average.
1x- Something you can tutor for, has some functional overlap with another card in your deck, or is good in the very late game only.
Elspeth is not any of the latter things. Nor Sylvan Library.
If you thought another card had close functional overlap you could, for instance, run 1x Elspeth, 1x Garruk, or 1x Elspeth, 1x Parallax Wave to have more effects that break stalemates. Or run a Top or two as additional Sylvan Library slots. But how do people determine that they want exactly one way to manipulate their draw but anything more is sub-optimal? Don't understand the fucking logic at all.
I think this is mostly a good rule of thumb, with one exception. I can see misering a card when you are never unhappy to see exactly one, but would never want to see it early or in multiples. Am I ever unhappy to topdeck an Elspeth? I doubt it. Would it be clunky in multiples? Likely.Quote:
Originally Posted by TheInfamousBearAssassin
That being said however, I would easily consider running 2 if it weren't for Thalia. I think Thalia (and mana denial) being a key strategy is a perfectly valid reason to run only 1, or even 0 Elspeth MD. Just the fact that it isn't tutorable doesn't seem entirely applicable in this case. Sylvan Library should definitely be a 2-of in the deck as it easily fits that category. A 3rd in the board wouldn't be out of question.
And for the record, I'm on board with Gaea's Cradle being underwhelming. I wouldn't ever cut Maze of Ith for it, so that means making it a possible 23rd land. That's fine, except I can think of a multitude of options I'd pick before Cradle, starting with basic Forest or a 3rd Horizon Canopy.