Fair enough. I'm pretty sure I would have won that game had I not discarded Mox Diamond, so your line sounds reasonable to me.Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Dingo
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Fair enough. I'm pretty sure I would have won that game had I not discarded Mox Diamond, so your line sounds reasonable to me.Quote:
Originally Posted by The_Dingo
Hello friends,
Now that the B&R has passed, and my LGS having a Miracles heavy meta, I'm looking for another mainboard tool to make that matchup a bit bitter. I'd like it to be an alternate wincon, since as we know Marit Lage can't wait to take up farming.
Primetime wasn't super tempting to me, as even though it gets value on EtB, it runs into the same swords problem, at a similar mana investment to powering out a Lage.
The idea I've liked best so far, and will be testing, is a creature-producing land. Mutavault worked way back when, but if we're worried about top flipping Terminuses and StP I think we need a more resilient threat. Urza's Factory comes to mind as previously the only option, but with SoI legal next week, I'm tempted by a one-of Westvale Abbey. I don't think I'd really ever be interested in flipping it, but making 2-3 1/1s seems like it puts enough pressure on the Miracles player to force them into poorly timed angels.
Has anyone had experience with running either of these? Thoughts?
On Westvale Abbey:
I really, really dislike the "Pay 1 Life" clause on the Abbey. Like the Homelands feel to it, though. I think the best manland (in the strictest sense) for our deck is Raging Ravine.
But rethink Titan. I'm starting to, and though I've only cast it one time in my very limited testing, I keep on thinking, "Man, I hope I topdeck Titan, or even Gamble for Titan," in the games in which I board it in.
Wurm Harvest.Quote:
Originally Posted by Skyl3lazer
This is tempting, I'll probably try both.Quote:
Originally Posted by Crimhead
I'll give it a shot again, I was hoping for something that could work with the loam/gamble as well as topdecking it. It also has the same issue of vulnerability to StP/Terminus that I'm trying to avoid.Quote:
Originally Posted by gigapatrick
e; Raging Ravine is great, but again is vulnerable to the same removal as Marit Lage is, at a similar timing. That's why I like the idea of Factory/Abbey, and why I'm more open to Worm Harvest
Having had Raging Ravine in the sideboard I found it too expensive and vulnerable to the same hate as the rest of our deck: Graveyard hate. That's why I think using win conditions which do not rely on the graveyard is such an important change. Wurm Harvest suffers the same fate, too.Quote:
Originally Posted by Skyl3lazer
Look into Sea Gate Wreckage as a late game topdeck engine. Drawing 2 cards a turn is a good deal, plus there are weird edge cases where you can save a loam.
I don't really see the advantage in Wreckage, but I agree with you on the GY hate angle. Hence, the Abbey/Factory idea.Quote:
Originally Posted by barcode
As much as I would love to play Abbey, both of those cards are wayyy too mana intensive for such little value.
Try Titan! The big benefit to it is you can grab the combo with him. So even if they answer him right away, they need a follow up asap for Lage. Its possible they do, but still threatening an not as likely.
You also sound like you want a card that dodges Swords, Terminus, AND counter magic. Lets be realistic, your opponent will have an answer. IMO, it comes down to what provides the most pressure.
As much as I love Decay main, I still think I prefer a full Playset of KGrip in SB for the Miracle match. Hitting Top is often more valuable, anyone agree?
Agree. I've given up on the black splash without Vortex for now, and have been going to a straight RG-list. Not really sure what it is, but every configuration of the RGb-manabase was not satisfying (I may have to get radical or go more Jund Depths)Quote:
Originally Posted by zombie_sky_diver
On alt-wincon: Titan, period. It works without the GY, it can kill on itself, it can fetch your combo or your one-of's. Wurm Harvest is pretty nice to, because you can go wide, something a lot of decks can't deal with. Unfortunately, it is vunerable for GY-hate.
Yes. But, Abrupt Decay hitting Monastery Mentor is definitely worth mentioning too.Quote:
Originally Posted by zombie_sky_diver
Quote:
Originally Posted by Chatto
I'm not sure if the list of 15 G-sources is correct, because I counted 13. But I had a similar problem, having too much green and too less black because of the Groves, and I'm considering Tranquil Thicket -> Barren Moor. That's -2 G-source and +2 B-source (although they do come into play tapped which isn't ideal since Thoughseizing is delayed a turn).Quote:
Originally Posted by Chatto
@ Rivfader: you're probably right, I had a couple of lists I was working on. I may have been counting the wrong list. Barren Moor is a good find, didn't think about that one.
I played a pretty stock RG list with a single worm harvest inn the main last night at a weekly. 3/4 of my matchups weren't really what I'd call worm harvest MUs, but it proved to be very good against my round 3 opponent on death and taxes. It was kind of a grindy affair, but long story short it was safer and quicker to make 6 worms every turn for a few turns than to make a marit lage against vial on 3 and a lethal board when I had no exploration effects with which to rebuild quickly.
For reference my MUs were
R1 shardless bug (2-0)
R2 storm (2-0)
R3 DnT (2-0)
R4 Mogg stompy (split)
In regards to building a RGb manabase, I think the article linked below is a very good one to read.
http://www.channelfireball.com/artic...t-your-spells/
You can draw your own conclusions from the article, but my personal conclusion is that if you want to play RGb and still play groves/P fires, there is no reliable way to cast thoughtseize on turn one post board. Abrupt decay main is still reasonable because presumably you won't need to cast it immediately, and will have time to find a fetch land or mox diamond. But for combo hate you might want to consider going back to the old setup of spheres and chalices. The David Long Special has more black sources so this discussion doesn't necessarily apply so much to that deck.
I'm still working on a list with both SB discard and main Pfire.
A slightly tweeked version of what I played last time is listed below, it has maindeck 13 G-lands, 8 B-lands (+Urborg in the side = 9)
I usually have no problems with a 61card list (albeit with 14 green lands then), so you could add another bayou to the list (below is a 60 card list though).
The only debatable choice I see is the sided Chasm, but I'm not really a chasm-man (and you can take out the Barren Moor for it).
So I think it's certainly doable to have both Groves and 8 or more B-lands without having to make difficult cuts.
MAINDECK
3 Dark Depths
4 Thespian's Stage
4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
3 Wooded Foothills
2 Windswept Heath
1 Bayou
2 Taiga
1 Forest
3 Grove of the Burnwillows
1 Tranquil Thicket
1 Barren Moor
3 Maze of Ith
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
1 Bojuka Bog
4 Life from the Loam
3 Pfire
3 Abrupt Decay
4 Gamble
4 Crop Rotation
4 Mox Diamond
4 Exploration
60
SIDEBOARD
1 Glacial Chasm
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
1 Dark Depths
2 Krosan Grip
1 Sylvan Library
1 Surgical Extraction
4 Duress
4 Thoughtseize
Quote:
Originally Posted by Rivfader
I'm new to Lands and I really like your list, just one question.
What's the benefit of playing Punishing Fire over Molten Vortex in the main?
You can get it back with the Loam engine.
They are both cards that need another card to work, PFire/Grove and Vortex/loam.Quote:
Originally Posted by CovenantElite30
That makes Pfire independant of loam itself, but dredging loam does assemble both Pfire and Grove.
And Pfire is Decayproof and semi counterproof.
Vortex is dependant of loam, and is much stronger if you have both cards going.
Essentially Vortex turns loam into a lowcost machinegun, not only controlling creatures but also being a wincondition (where Pfire on your opponent's life is real slow).
It also works under Bloodmoon if you have a green mana.
But if you don't have loam, you're pitching lands that you might play in the next turns (kind of dissynergic with the plan to develop your board with control- and combopieces)
And Vortex is sensitive to Decay and counterspells, and gets dredged away so you preferably need it in the openinghand or you have to loamcycle for it.
Essentially, it's an attempt from some people on the thread, me included, to combine the blacksplash list from David Long with the maindeck decays and the blacksplash manabase for discard, with the Groves of the Burnwillows (Pfire and Vortex swap with eachother).
Thanks for the insight on the differences.Quote:
Originally Posted by Rivfader
I'll be playing the Vortex version this week as I don't currently have the Groves (friends borrowing them).
I basically put together the list that made top 8 from the last large tournament.
Instants [7]
3 Abrupt Decay
4 Crop Rotation
Sorceries [8]
4 Gamble
4 Life from the Loam
Enchantments [7]
3 Molten Vortex
4 Exploration
Artifacts [4]
4 Mox Diamond
Lands [35]
1 Bayou
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Forest
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Glacial Chasm
1 Karakas
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
1 Windswept Heath
1 Wooded Foothills
2 Maze of Ith
2 Misty Rainforest
2 Tranquil Thicket
2 Verdant Catacombs
3 Dark Depths
3 Taiga
4 Rishadan Port
4 Thespian's Stage
4 Wasteland
2 Choke
3 Dark Confidant
2 Krosan Grip
1 Mindbreak Trap
2 Sphere of Resistance
4 Thoughtseize
He plays Dark Confidants and Thoughtseize in the sideboard.
I was actually thinking about adding worm harvest to the sideboard of that list.
Instants
3 Abrupt Decay
4 Crop Rotation
Sorceries
4 Gamble
4 Life from the Loam
Enchantments
3 Punishing Fire
4 Exploration
Artifacts
4 Mox Diamond
Lands
1 Bayou
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Forest
3 Grove of the Burnwillows
1 Glacial Chasm
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
1 Windswept Heath
1 Wooded Foothills
3 Maze of Ith
1 Misty Rainforest
2 Tranquil Thicket
2 Verdant Catacombs
3 Dark Depths
2 Taiga
4 Rishadan Port
4 Thespian's Stage
4 Wasteland
1 Dark Depths
3 Dark Confidant
2 Krosan Grip
1 Zuran Orb
2 Sphere of Resistance
4 Thoughtseize
1 Duress
Played this list, with Zuran Orb instead of Mindbreak Trap due to the burn in the room, and finished 3-0.
2-1 Mono U Delver
2-0 Grixis Delver
2-1 Burn
Being able to Gamble for Punishing Fire was huge for me multiple times, so I plan on sticking with this configuration for a local 60 man tournament on Sunday. I have only played with Molten Vortex twice, and it didn't see enough play for me to have much of an opinion, but P. Fire has always been an all star for me.
Quote:
Originally Posted by Emrakul503
I love love love the black splash. I don't know how many times abrupt decay has saved my A$$.
But I know what you mean with the vortex. I feel maybe a combination of both in the main may be good?
Maybe we can convince @gigapatrick to do a video splashing black?
A list I've seen online does play both PFire and Vortex but no abrupt decay at all. I took the list and added abrupt decay.
What do you guys think?
Instants [7]
2 Abrupt Decay
3 Punishing Fire
4 Crop Rotation
Sorceries [8]
4 Gamble
4 Life from the Loam
Enchantments [8]
2 Molten Vortex
4 Exploration
Artifacts [4]
4 Mox Diamond
Lands [33]
1 Bojuka Bog
1 Forest
1 Ghost Quarter
1 Misty Rainforest
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
1 Tranquil Thicket
1 Windswept Heath
1 Wooded Foothills
2 Taiga
3 Dark Depths
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
4 Maze of Ith
4 Rishadan Port
4 Thespian's Stage
4 Wasteland
SB:
3 Choke
1 Karakas
1 Abrupt Decay
3 Krosan Grip
2 Nissa, Worldwaker
3 Pithing Needle
1 Surgical Extraction
This morning I had an idea to take the deck from Jund colours to Naya colours. Why Naya? What do we get? We get Gaddock Teeg and Stoneforge Mystic. Don't get me wrong, Titan is still king but it might be a worthwhile test.
In a few minutes I brewed up this. I have no idea how it'll work but here it is.
4 Gamble
4 Life from the Loam
4 Exploration
4 Mox Diamond
3 Crop Rotation
3 Punishing Fire
2 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
2 Savannah
2 Taiga
4 Thespian's Stage
3 Dark Depths
3 Maze of Ith
1 Misty Rainforest
1 Windswept Heath
1 Wooded Foothills
4 Wasteland
4 Rishadan Port
1 Karakas
1 Bojuka Bog
1 The Tabernacle at Pendrell Vale
1 Glacial Chasm
2 Tranquil Thicket
1 Riftstone Portal
SB:
2 Gaddock Teeg
2 Batterskull
3 Stoneforge Mystic
3 Thorn of Amethyst
1 Pithing Needle
4 Krosan Grip