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I was refering to the fact that some1 was playing 2. I own 1 and I have put it in my wishboard. Itīs vital to have in a wishboard. I am going to take the GP Gent list with the addition of ADx3 side over 3 cages and MD 1x tropical island over 1x chrome mox.
I played ANT Sunday at scg indy and ended up 5-3 losing to bug-because i punted zombies-outrageous discard and a large sack of luck and stoneblade-mulled to 5 in game 3
Decks i beat NicFit-easy wins past in flames/iggy both games ub control(aj sacher)-past in flames/pastinflames again rug-past in flames/ad nauseam belcher-duress game 1/echoing truth goblins game 2 u/w countertop-past in flames loop/abrupt decay=win
The list
4 misty rainforest
4 polluted delta
1 bloodstained mire
2 underground sea
1 volcanic island
1 tropical island
1 bayou
1 island
1 swamp
4 dark ritual
4 cabal ritual
4 ponder
4 brainstorm
4 gitaxin probe
4 duress
3 cabal therapy
4 infernal tutor
2 grim tutor
1 ad nauseam
1 past in flames
1 tendrils of agony
4 lions eye dialmond
4 lotus petal
sb
4 dread of night
3 abrupt decay
3 dark confidant
1 ill-gotten gains
1 empty the warrens
1 ad nauseam
1 echoing truth
1 chain of vapor
The list was very consistent. I feel like there is one to many land so I'm going to begin testing 1 preordain in the place of the tropical island, chrome mox may also be a suitable replacement. The bobs were subpar, the abrupt decays were awesome, i never used empty so the trop will take its place in the board for the rug matchup. I finished 44th and plan on playing a similar deck in st louis in two weeks. If you have any questions feel free to comment.
no I meant 8b but was thinking the shorthand for 7 and a b instead of 7b when I wrote it for some reason. I had enough for wish into grim into tendrils for the win but not enough storm count for wish into tendrils to kill him. I also had no way to iggyloop.Quote:
Originally Posted by heathen
@ slaydo: I was running pyroclasm in sb for a wish sweeper, I also have grafdigger's cage in the sb but found them to be pretty useless so I'd probably try the abrubt decays as well because countertop was the only thing that worried me so far.
Do you feel that cutting one of the lands (fetchland likely) for the 4th Cabal Therapy would improve or worsen your run?Quote:
Originally Posted by ponder
How relevant was Dread of Night against the field you expected? Did you even get paired against Maverick/white hate-bears? (it doesn't looks like it)
Adding the extra Tropical in the SB seems like a great idea against RUG's mana denial.
@koby
The 4th therapy is unnecessary between probes ponders and brainstorms I saw 2 discard a game which is enough. That was actually the reason it's staying in the board. Either way you can't cut any fetches shuffle is too important. In the 3 hours of testing so far preordain has been great.
I was thinking of running Reforge the Soul on the sideboard. It does the same as Diminishing Returns for one extra mana, but it allows you to keep you graveyard. That enables both Cabal Ritual and Past in Flames. Also, a minor point is that it doesn't shuffle you fetchlands in your deck before you draw 7, therefore increasing the chance for drawing gas. The RR cost is kinda steep, but so is UU. The deck is not prepared at all to win with Reforge the Soul, but sometimes it can be a last ditch effort when your hand has mana + Burning Wish and Past in Flames/IGG/Grim Tutor/Empty the Warrens is not an option.Quote:
Originally Posted by Umezete
for those who know spanish here you have a little article/report with the list. and sidboarding guide, I played las Saturady.
http://manainfinito.com/articulos/ma...ki-puigdollers
Greetings,
Iņaki.-
I like your arguments alderon666, it really sounds worth trying. I've tested Reforge the Soul in Belcher before and it was actually quite nice, except against blue decks, but that's a problem inherent to Belcher anyway. I do think that in order for Reforge the Soul to work in ANT you should consider playing some Silence/Chant or Xantid Swarm.Quote:
Originally Posted by alderon666
Quote:
Originally Posted by egosum
Thanks for the report Egosum, I hope my basic knowledge of spanish will be enough to decipher the text. :smile:
Quote:
Originally Posted by Dia_Bot
Google translate(built into chrome) is an amazing tool, it is not accurate but it gets the job done.
I should probably read it in spanish though to brush up on it.
The point is not optimizing the deck for it. The question is if it's worth the sideboard slot.Quote:
Originally Posted by bennotsi
You can argue that there's most of the time a way to avoid the situation of: all mana in hand + Burning Wish, nothing relevant on the graveyard, not enough life/mana for Grim -> Ad Nauseam/PiF, tokens not viable and IGG not an option AND opponent not playing blue, especially not Flusterstorm. That's the only case where the Reforge is good, because on the other scenarios the cards mentioned above give you a better chance of winning.
The problem is that I really dislike the sideboard introduced in ANT on GP Ghent. With 4 Dread of Night and 3 Cages, you have little space for Wish targets. More than once during playtesting/goldfishing I felt that BW was bad as a setup spell and useless as a business spell. And that, for me, is a really big problem! I think that you should have a decent winning % with a hand of BW + mana, but that sometimes is just not enough. TES for example had a pretty good winning % on casting Diminishing Returns with BR on the mana pool. I feel that the current ANT lists is missing that.
I wouldn't even consider actually playing 3 Cages or whatever it is that guy had. He's a Dredge guy, so I think he was just over-preparing for that deck. If you're having trouble beating Grave Trolls with Dark Rituals you're doing something wrong.
Reanimator is actually a pretty hard matchup.Quote:
Originally Posted by thefringthing
Karakas is mighty powerful against Reanimator. It's also uncounterable against them, and can be protected from discard. I had very positive experience with running 3 in the sideboard at the GP side events.Quote:
Originally Posted by alderon666
I didn't test the deck enought to see if cages are good enought , but I once played it against NicFit and opened with probe seeing ( 2x Zenith, terapy , finks , veteran , 1 land, MB Trap) than played cage for the lolz.I know it is not relevant but would like to add this experience because I never thought about SB it against Nic-Fit until I face one.Quote:
Originally Posted by thefringthing
That's same problem though, dread of night+ 3 reananimator hate = only 8 slots for wishboard.Quote:
Originally Posted by Koby
only 8? thats alot imo
...What are you putting in your wishboard if you're using 8 spots?Quote:
Originally Posted by Umezete
Beats me, I mentioned that because alderon666 was lamenting the 7 spots were being eaten up and can't be a wishboard.Quote:
Originally Posted by Namida
I'm in pretty borning netdeckmode until I play the deck more, I'm running 4 dread, 3 cage, 1 empty the warrens (this seems bad in almost every scenario nowadays, probably cut), 1 duress, 2 Inquisition, 1 Ill gotten gains, 1 Tendrils, and 1 pyroclasm.
I also have a perish in the sb but its supposed to be grim tutor, I should be getting one in a few weeks.
I'm okay with that sb so far except I kinda want a sb past in flames, I've had a couple of times where wishing for past in flames would have been good for me.
cut the perish for the past in flamesQuote:
Originally Posted by Umezete
And i would play a vitures ruin instead of the pyroclasm
I don't run Burning Wish at all. After running emidln's version in some live matches, I wanted more tutor action, so I thought to add them back in. Then I saw Inaki's version with 2 Grim Tutor, and that's a simple transition. The Abrupt Decay/Karakas plan seems too good to pass up on, and instead of boarding in more land, fixing the maindeck mana mix seems like a better idea.Quote:
Originally Posted by Umezete
You don't have 8 slots left for the wishboard. You have to run some discard and some bounce (you don't want to scoop to resolved a Thorn of Amethyst do you?). You also need more hatebear hate because one Dread of Night don't kill neither Canonist nor Gaddock.
But I have to admit I enter the "danger of cool things" zone when it comes to wishboards. I actually considered running a Rite of Flame so that BW could turn into more mana. But red mana is so bad in this version of this deck, not worth the slot.
I actually like Grim Tutor a lot, BW is all kinds of bad in this deck. But I'm not buying one of those things, let alone two. Legacy too expensive, want to play Modern.
/rant
Is there a good sorcery bounce spell that could be in the board to Wish for?
Eye to Nowhere,its 2 BU return target permanent to its owner's hand.
Never tested it. If you do let us know how it goes.
This was gone over years ago, it is too slow and too much mana it is an extra UU on the combo turn that you usually cannot afford, also you need to set it up a turn ahead of time so they see it coming.Quote:
Originally Posted by MTG Junkie
There is also Silent Departure if all you need is an Unsummon. But sorcery speed bounce is awful. You can't EOT it so it eats into your mana on your combo turn, and you have to show your opponent that you have it when you Wish for it, so you give your opponent time to react to the information.
I have two questions. How does the UB version (with Grim Tutors and without Burning Wishes) deal with hatebears, are Abrupt Decays from the sb enough for this? And how does ANT deal with chalice on 0 or 1 on early turns?
Obv. in first game it just can't. If you feel like for your given metagame it is needed just change one Chain of Vapor from the side for a Duress and then you have a very little hope (some people feel more comfortable by doing that, I just prefer to resolve the first game fast having an straightforward list since the chances of finding a deck with annoying bear are not super high, and even if you are matched against, let's say, G/W you also have chances to win before the bear hits the table, for 2 reasons either speed or just discard).
Chains and Decays are super OK, but it definitely depends on the meta. If you are going to face many Dragon stumpy/Aggro Loam/MUD, and nasty stuff like that just change the sideboard, adapt it with few Hurkyl's Recall/Rebuild/Engineered explosives/Echoing truth/..., But for the current meta a chalice @ 1 only is played in turn 2 (not many "sol land" decks, nor Mox diamoned decks, and the decks with Mox Diamond abuse of 1CC spells so they won't play chalice normally), this means that you have a 1/2 turn window to discard that chalice that will be played @1. A chalice of zero is not really a problem since you have 6 efficient answers post board. and obv. chalice @ is not a problem neither (because you just have the 6 same efficient answers, remember Decay can't be countered).
Greetings,
Iņaki.-
Preboard, the plan against hatebears is to outrace them, which means ~40% win preboard against maverick.Quote:
Originally Posted by bilb_o
Post board...most lists I've seen have 3-4 abrupt decay, 2-3 bounce (karakas or chain), 2-3 sweepers (pyroclasm, virtues ruin, or dread of night), and 3-4 thoughtseize. If you were counting, thats almost the entire sideboard you can bring in if you like.
Chalice on 0 you should get excited that your opponent is bad...it's not irrelevant, but certainly not hard to play through. Chalice on 1 preboard is annoying - I start firing off all my 1 drops to get threshold on cabal ritual, but it's tough to win without cantrips. Post board, abrupt decay does the trick.Quote:
Originally Posted by bilb_o
I've been playing Emidln's latest list on MTGO, with the exception of the Virtue's Ruins from the sideboard because they don't exist on MTGO. My sideboard has 4 Dread of Night over the 3 Ruins and a Karakas, I'm not sure this is right but less than 4 Dread of Night seems sub-optimal. The deck is insane, and I almost feel like a second Past in Flames in the main would be better than the Ad Nauseam. The Nauseam could be in the board for the specific matchups where it's good, but I've found that a naturally drawn Past and Flames is much better against decks like RUG that put on pressure and have disruption. A turn 5 ad nauseam from 11 is neat and all, but it usually just doesn't get there. I understand that Ad Nauseam is a business spell on it's own, but a value past in flames for a few cantrips isn't even the worst, it can just put you in a position to flash it back next turn and win with your improved hand.
1, Cannonist is 2/2 = Dread of night is crapQuote:
Originally Posted by cuthbertthecat
2, 2 PiF - I said that all the time ;) ... that need (+AdN) led me from 2 grim into BW build
3, decent graveyard (lacking tutors or mana) with Ponder, Probe, Brainstorm is usually enough to get there blind (better chances that AdN from 11)
We all know how bad ad nauseam is in this deck with 4 petals and no chrome moxen. Doesn't help that this deck is slower than TES so when we fire off ad nauseam we're typically at 13 life or less, which isn't a sure kill in this deck by any means. Even at 20 life the card isn't an auto win because of the random crap we can flip. I don't like ad nauseam that much but it's a necessary evil in my eyes because randomly winning on turn 1 by raw drawing the ad nauseam + double DRit can be necessary. Or when the opponent goes tormod's crypt. I feel like 1 PiF is enough, I occasionally go for the PiF -> tons of cantrips line of play to try to find a business spell but I don't do so lightly as not winning after resolving PiF and emptying your graveyard of instants/sorceries is pretty bad unless you manage to set up the kill for the next turn. I only really do this line when I'm dead on board and have no other options because ad nauseam from 2 life is the neat way of conceding.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sloshthedark
Played Emidln's maindeck almost card for card yesterday at a local and went 2-1 because my opponent lucksacked out in the last round. I didn't change the manabase from before abrupt decay was in the deck, it wasn't relevant today but I'm definitely changing the manabase before I play the deck again. Not sure what his SB looks like currently but mine was 4 Abrupt decay, 1 trop, 1 bayou, 3 karakas, 2 chain of vapor, 3 virtue's ruin, 1 tendrils of agony. Fourth round didn't happen because of some problems with the tournament software or something odd. I beat reanimator 2-0, lands 2-0 with a turn 1 kill in game 1 and game 2 I drew a green source/petal just in time because I got wastelocked out of the game. Round 3 against merfolk I probed him when he was tapped out with a cursecatcher and silvergill in play. He had a pierce in hand but he was tapped out. I could easily play around the cursecatcher with my double cabal rit hand and 3 lands in play as well as a pair of dark rit's with infernal tutor -> PiF winning the game with ease. Game 2 I was a mana short on the combo turn because my opponent got the merfolk aggro nut draw so he effectively wasted one of my lands due to myself being at 2 life with 2 fetchlands in play. Game 3 I tore his hand to shreds with therapy when he was land hosed, I eventually draw infernal tutor and he topdecked a force. No big deal because he had no pressure. When I go all in on the next tutor he was lucky enough to have drawn a second force when his only card in hand the turn before was a lord of atlantis. Pretty sick topdecks I have to say. Round 1 against reanimator was a good match. Game 1 I lead off with probe on the play and see a hand of double brainstorm, entomb, reanimate, sea, swamp. I therapy away the double brainstorms to make it safe to go off next turn barring him drawing a brainstorm into force + blue card off of a topdecked brainstorm, which is quite unlikely seeing as how he has 2 brainstorms left in a deck of 53 cards. For game 2 I bring in 3 karakas and 2 chain of vapor. He goes sea, careful study dumping SnT and griselbrand. I draw my card (a karakas) and probe before laying a land. He dazes and I just think to myself why I didn't play a land first, although I suspect that my opponent was trying to landhose me thinking I didn't have a land in hand when I had 2 I just forgot to play one first. I blind therapy, name force of will. He has ponder, reanimate, and stifle (?) along with 3 lands. I lay down petal and LED before passing. He reanimates griselbrand on his turn going to 12. I lay my karakas down and immediately activate it to play around the stifle in his hand. He activates griselbrand in response, and I punt by not flashing in snapcaster in response forgetting that he's at 5 life and I can literally beat him to death with a 2/1. Either way he draws 7 cards. I play a cantrip and pass or something. He goes land go. I go land, cantrip, snapcaster. He forces it pitching stifle. He's also cracked one fetchland so he's at 3 life at this point. He entombs platinum emperion. Luckily I have a chain of vapor in hand. He has to cast exhume on his turn as that is his only reanimation spell. So I get to live the dream and put snapcaster into play with a therapy in the yard. I draw infernal tutor for my turn. He has just misty rainforest open and 3 cards in hand or something. Stifle doesn't hold a candle to tendrils even if he has one he has to go to 2 life to cast it so the lone tendrils would win the game. So I flashback therapy on him naming force of will/the only card that can stop me. He has one and some other irrelevant cards in hand so I win going CoV -> IT -> tendrils. Pretty great match in my eyes at least. Absolutely love karakas in the sideboard, the card is actually just obscene.
Chalice on zero is really hand dependant. Sometimes it the nuts. Sometimes you just kill them with all the dark rit's and cabal rit's. But I find chalice at 1 to be infinitely more annoying as most of the deck is composed of 1 drops namely cantrips. You can win through chalice on 1 but it typically involves drawing a lot of artifact mana and getting lucky with ad nauseam since PiF doesn't work so well with artifacts it turns out.
Against maverick preboard you hope they don't land a hatebear before you go off or hope to strip their hatebear with discard before it lands. Winning through thalia is theoretically possible but in practice it almost never happens as requiring an additional 10 mana on the combo turn is a lot of mana against a deck that can kill you quite fast with knight or just swarm you. Postboard when you bring in close to 14 cards the matchup is an autowin unless you draw quite poorly or the opponent draws incredibly hot.
You can also kill canonist with double dread of night. It isn't impossible to draw 2 dread of nights in a deck with 4 ponder and 4 brainstorm. You can also potentially infernal tutor for an additional copy of DoN, sure this line is quite slow but once 2 DoN's hit the table against maverick you should auto win as the only way they can interact with you is maybe graveyard hate or try to interact with you life total to mess up ad nauseam, although I almost always go for PiF against maverick especially if you're winning on turn 4 or later. Still have abrupt decay to answer canonist as well and if DoN hits they can't protect their hatebear from decay with mom fortunately for us. The postboard matchup against maverick is one of the easiest matchups we have the only decks that are easier are those that have zero ways of interacting with us.
Also, it would seem that canonist is near-unplayable currently, with the combo deck of choice being show and tell which doesn't really care about it. Especially on MTGO, there's a ton of show and tell and very little storm.
Ran this today and was pretty satisfied with it. It's pretty much my GP Amsterdam deck minus white plus discard and a green sideboard. Never missed the Volc for PiF, not sure if I like Mox, sb was a bit random but okay. I ended up going 5-2 beating BW Blade, Elves, UB Tempo, RUG Delver & UW Miracles. I lost to BUG and the mirror (which is lame without white).
//Main Deck: 60
4 Infernal Tutor
1 Grim Tutor
1 Past in Flames
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Ad Nauseam
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Gitaxian Probe
1 Preordain
4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
1 Chrome Mox
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Duress
4 Polluted Delta
4 Misty Rainforest
1 Verdant Catacombs
2 Underground Sea
1 Bayou
2 Island
1 Swamp
// Sideboard: 15
3 Abrupt Decay
2 Carpet of Flowers
2 Xantid Swarm
1 Tropical Island
2 Chain of Vapor
2 Dread of Night
1 Extirpate
1 Grafdigger's Cage
1 Karakas
Went to a tournament over the weekend. There were five rounds and I finished a disappointing 3-2. Played the following list:
4 Polluted Delta
4 Bloodstained Mire
2 Underground Sea
1 Bayou
1 Badlands
1 Volcanic Island
1 Swamp
1 Island
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
4 Dark Ritual
4 Cabal Ritual
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Duress
1 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Infernal Tutor
2 Burning Wish
1 Grim Tutor
1 Past in Flames
1 Tendrils of Agony
1 Ad Nauseum
4 Dread of Night
3 Grafdigger's Cage
2 Inquisition of Kozilek
1 Duress
1 Pyroclasm
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
1 Reverent Silence
1 Tendrils of Agony
In the tournament I played against:
Round 1: U/W Stoneblade (2-1)
Round 2: W/R RIP Helm combo (0-2)
Round 3: MUD (0-2)
Round 4: Esper Stoneblade (2-0)
Round 5: Maverick (2-0)
It was fairly disappointing to face the RIP Helm combo since in game 1, I didn't have any discard spells but was able to see his hand via probe and he kept an opening hand of 5 lands, a Pithing Needle and a RIP. I couldn't kill before he dropped the RIP and my hand was full of Cabal Rituals and then he just topdecked painter and grindstone in the next two turns and killed me. Game two, he started off with two Leyline of Sanctities on turn zero and followed up with RIP on turn two. I was able to wish for Reverent Silence and I used the silence up too early since he had 4 lands in play and two cards in hand and I thought that it was weird how he passed without playing anything with 4 lands in play so I decided to cast the Reverent Silence. Next turn, he ends up playing his third Leyline and then the turn following that played another RIP. I then had to just play Empty the Warrens for 16 and then he topdecked painter and helm in two straight turns which was pretty frustrating.
Against MUD, I don't think the deck with this sideboard can win right? There's just not enough discard to keep them off chalices, lodestones and trinispheres and if one sphere effect hits, it's pretty much over.
It was the first time I played with Grim Tutor and it replaced the 3rd Burning Wish. Grim Tutor was extremely strong and won me the games where if it was a Burning Wish, I would have lost. I'm not sure if it's better in the sideboard or in the maindeck though.
Also, I've never hated casting Ad Nauseum more. I hardcast it once this tournament, flipped 20+ cards from 19 life and couldn't hit one lotus petal, LED or dark ritual. I had to end up passing the turn and couldn't win on the next turn either as I couldn't find the pieces I needed through Brainstorms and shuffle effects. There's just too much variance.
You can't let situations like that dissuade you from casting it, though - there is some variance to it, but anytime you're 95%+ to win off it it's definitely correct to cast unless you have a 100% option. Especially post board, I cast ad naus fairly frequently to play around surgical.Quote:
Originally Posted by pocari79
Likely not, still not that bad if you win the die roll... CoV/Golem can be played through, they hurt themselves with Tomb and have ~0 card manipulation, if they topdeck Trinisphere... well, it's an acceptable loss, some match-ups are simply not favorable +dislike 0 bounce SBQuote:
Originally Posted by pocari79
I play that configuration too... not sure if I like it that much, not many play control/CB in my meta
sometimes happens... I play AN only when hitting it first 2/3 turns and/or no other option... I found out I even SB it out 4/5 of G2
I only board out ad nauseam against burn occasionally. I never board it out completely, as relying completely on PiF makes you slower and vulnerable to grave hate while AdN just dodges it. Sure there is variance to AdN unlike PiF unless you go with the PiF -> oodles of cantrips play where variance becomes a thing but there are the "oops, I win" scenarios with ad nauseam where you just open up the turn 1 ad nauseam hand and are able to win with it or at least untap and have a really good shot at winning said game. I rarely have this happen with PiF where I'm able to perform a turn 1 past in flames kill as PiF typically requires more setup to be able to win the game for you.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sloshthedark
I don't like it with Dark Confidant and i don't like it while having additional 2-3 4CC storm spells in, that leaves me with mirror+other combo and some on play SB scenarios when Bobs are not good.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dark Ritual
What decks is Bob even good enough to bring in? Not RUG, miracles, or maverick certainly. I like Bob as much as anyone, but it's pretty hard to justify playing in a meta where Stoneblade and BUG aren't really things anymore.Quote:
Originally Posted by Sloshthedark