I was jammin epic storm on modo while waiting for kaladesh but I got my 2 Chandras now so it's paint time. I'll try to get some video stream going more regularly hopefully next week, but on west coast time. Fuck with me
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I was jammin epic storm on modo while waiting for kaladesh but I got my 2 Chandras now so it's paint time. I'll try to get some video stream going more regularly hopefully next week, but on west coast time. Fuck with me
Interesting mana base in your tes deck, but congrats on the results!Quote:
Originally Posted by Kap'n Cook
Do you plan to switch nahiri for Chandra or do you go for both?
http://www.lovethisgif.com/uploaded_...ellent-Gif.gifQuote:
Originally Posted by Kap'n Cook
Isn't that basically the gameplan of a prison deck? :wink:Quote:
Originally Posted by CptHaddock
Just picking a little. I know what you mean, and yeah Painter was never exactly in the same camp as Stax or Lands. The main point is that the Mono-Red version was/is good when the lock pieces are stronger because the game plan is basically combo quick against decks with no disruption, or play a lock piece (Blood Moon, Ensnaring Bridge, etc...) to prevent the opponents game plan. As those lock pieces cover less of the meta additional efforts have to be made to close the door on people which is why RW which is better at finding the exact card you need is good even though it has more mana color issues and card disadvantage issues.
I've been out of the game for a good 9-12 months (though I did play side events at GP DC, and won a good few matches (about 6) with a janky Mono-Red build with Wastelands.) so I'm not going to jump in suggesting builds right now, but a quick look at the decks to beat has me pretty optimistic that a good version of painter can be built right now.
Painter really isn't in the deck to be a control all-star, I think you are approaching this wrong. Yes you get one mana instant speed vindicate that can also counter spells when you have a painter on Blue, but I don't think you should play most matches seeing painter as a control piece. The real strength of REB and Pyroblast is that Blue is the most prominent color in legacy, not that you can turn everything blue and go to town (that's just a plus). Most decks with Abrupt decay (not fast combo which you have to approach differently) you should first lock the door with Blood moon or Magus of the Moon then combo with painter, or force them to spend their abrupt decays on Blood moons or Magus of the Moons.Quote:
Originally Posted by CovenantElite30
It is entirely possible to win off of a single Magus of the Moon vs. some decks. With the Magus locking them out all the cards in their deck and dealing them 20. That said I'm not sure if Magus is in the good camp or bad camp right now, it varies based on the make up of the meta.
I played my bling shortcake on the weekend, frankly it is hard not to play anything else… I was close to slinging Death and Taxes but I flipped a coin and was relieved when it came up painter. I painted the LGS in a bi-weekly tournament that is proxy friendly which gives the gang (15 this weekend) an opportunity to try out some decks less travelled. Not me. I don’t play proxies… In my painter deck, I don’t play unblinged cards either, this makes the card pool less flexible than most. I am playing shortcake with some retro cards but it is listing an LED and a few other things. Honestly, I am not convinced that at my standard the fine tuning makes much of a difference.
I went 3-1 ID’ing on the fifth for a locked out top 4 and then lost there. Here is the report.
Match 1 (2-1) 12 Posts
Game 1
Why? I look around and there really is only one other player on Sneak and Show that I would least want on my first round. I had played him a couple of weeks before and got my combo out and he extended his hand in concession before I set it off. I accepted and then asked if I could see his deck and he obliged. It contained Emrakul. He was not going to make that mistake again. My game plan is simple. Blood Moon and then drift some red weenies his way. This is pretty much how game one rolls. They all come out to chip in, painter, welder, recruiters chaining. It’s a cinderella story!! I can’t believe it and my hands don’t stop shaking.
Game 2
I board bridge, crypts and RIP. I don’t get a moon and whilst I keep a hand with painter and Crypt, I see no GS but I build a bridge and he eventually naturally casts an Emrakul with Karakas in play for infinite turns. He tells me how is going to beat me. I am unimpressed and ask him to show me the cards that he thinks will get Emmy around a bridge, and yep he has them.
Game 3
I keep the board and go with a hand containing a magus that comes down turn two and the red weenie drift commences! Painter and Magus take a further 7 turns to smack face and I do have the combo ready on the final turn but I go with the safer “kill you” option as opposed to the “you die” one that I normally prefer.
I win!!! And it feels like I am playing a really bad Death and Taxes which is even better. He tells me after that he is building Miracles *ugh*
Match 2 (0-2) Grixis
Game 1
God Damn! He has an answer to everything and wastes my AT. I am so countered that I check his GY for the fifth FoW I am sure just dropped my whatever. He summons a Big Fish and whilst I am on 18, I have only one mountain on the field and I am hellbent. The fish and a gobshite draining me are clearly going to finish me so I concede rather than putting myself through it.
Game 2
This was epic. Possibly the best game of the day. I have a slowly developing board and am one turn, ONE TURN!!! from grinding him as I sit behind my bridge but a couple of previous hits from delver and me playing too fast and too loose with Ancient Tomb puts me in bolt distance and he does.
Match 3 (2-1) Stax
Game 1
I thought I was sitting across from an esper or DnT but an early combo grinds him before I really know what is happening. A few artifacts hit the field. MUD? Affinity?
Game 2
I don’t sideboard. STAX!!!! I can’t get the grind on but turn sideways with red weenies. I have him on 3 and really think I am in when the whole thing goes backwards. Smokestack and Tangle Wire or is it tangle wire and smokestack? He rubs it in that he chooses stack order and he wants it Smokestack and then Tangle Wire. I am incredulous not knowing the full transcript of rule 603. He suggests I can call a judge if I want. He doesn't, but I hear him add, "you ignorant fuck" to it. The whole thing is delivered in just the right way to put me on the tilt. I loose everything and roll my eyes as I extend my hand with a life total of 17. There is no way out. I quip that I really don’t know how to deal with that and he glibly replies that I just need to get an early grind on.
Game 3
Manic Vandal in. I get an early grind on. Turn 2 kill. two tombs, painter and GS. He smiles and says “see!” (you ignorant fuck).
This match up really threw me and I am still thinking about it. What to board? What to Stony Silence? Aura of Silence? Ancient Grudge? Shatter Storm?
Match 4 Esper (2-0)
Game 1
God, I don’t know what happened here. Turn 2 grind. He does get to fetch…
Game 2
My first painter is sent farming. Turn 4 grind. He gets to fetch again.
Round 5 we ID into top four.
Top 4 (0-2)
I am in second place so I am on the play. I know I am against Grixis Delver.
Game 1
I mull to 5 looking for the perfect hand. He does what Grixis does and I have no answers. I concede having been locked out by no lands and a big fish from him with gobshite draining me.
Game 2
Rinse repeat.
I am not sure what happened here. I really think painter is a shoe in on Grixis but the two rounds I lose are just that. Could it be my confidence is such that I take too many risks? I will need to jam more delver games and get back to you.
My success vs. Grixis is directly proportional to the number of Fiery Confluence I sideboard in. It usually wipes the board + kill an annoying artifact. It's also not rare for me to just kill them with Fiery Confluence.
A pretty cool looking painter list went 5-0. What do you guys think?
4 Ancient Tomb
3 Arid Mesa
4 Blood Moon
2 Bloodstained Mire
3 Chandra, Torch of Defiance
3 City of Traitors
2 Enlightened Tutor
3 Ensnaring Bridge
2 Goblin Welder
4 Grindstone
4 Imperial Recruiter
4 Lotus Petal
1 Magus of the Moon
5 Mountain
4 Painter's Servant
2 Plateau
4 Pyroblast
2 Red Elemental Blast
4 Sensei's Divining Top
1 Duergar Hedge-Mage
1 Ethersworn Canonist
2 Firebolt
2 Koth of the Hammer
3 Kozilek's Return
1 Phyrexian Revoker
1 Ratchet Bomb
1 Rest in Peace
1 Thorn of Amethyst
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Trinisphere
This sounds like the majority of matchups that I have had against Grixis, i've lost more matches that actually matter to Grixis than to any other delver deck. The matches I win feel more like my opponents doing silly things like not keeping a hand with force against a turn 1 blood moon deck or them bringing in blasts against me and having 4 completely useless cards postboard.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jungian Thing
I kinda love the list. I have been running something similar, but with only two bridges and two Chandra main. It offers a nice secondary win condition of sitting behind a bridge and going for the emblem. I am intrigued by the idea of running three each main, it looks like at the expense of some welders. The only slight concern is the mana curve went up and there are still only 19 lands. Seems like that could lead to screw more often.
Yeah, very interesting list. The biggest issue I would have is that it looks like an absolute dog to any deck that isn't turning creatures sideways for the win. This deck is definitely built more for creature based decks like delver, eldrazi and death and taxes. Game one is almost auto-loss to Storm, Sneak and Show (with Omniscience), oops all spells etc. This is a deck where I would at least play one copy of Canonist or Revoker or some sort of combo hate main or you really have no chance. Obviously he has some of that in the board so things get better post-board. But then do you side out the chandras in those MUs? Probably does have a pretty good MU against Miracles though with 5 Planeswalkers though.
I agree, but the regular short cake lists have the same issue. I see very few running canonist main deck. Even then its only one piece of hate main against combo.Quote:
Originally Posted by drude1
Imo if you're playing a list close to what Jack has been playing (LED, 3 tutors) you can race combo pretty decently (barring show and tell because that matchup is still terrible) so the extra combo hate is nice but not entirely needed. I don't think we're beating the faster combo decks e.g. tes, belcher, tinfins and oops that much barring an asteroid hitting our opponent game 1 anyways.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jimbrewersbro
This is exactly my point. This list is running 3 bridge and 3 Planeswalkers that really do nothing against combo. The standard list is just going to be that much faster as to sometimes race other combo decks. Having said that, I actually do still run 1 x Canonist in the main for combo (great against storm, high tide, elves, oops, blecher, etc).Quote:
Originally Posted by CptHaddock
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
Painter is a combo deck - in game 1. Many times we are forced to either abandon or modify this plan for games two and three for strategies which are "immune" or "resistant" to our general combo. Emerkul comes to mind for many.
I believe miracles fits into this category as well.
Local meta's aside, at any significant legacy tournament Miracles will be a top tier competitive deck. I feel that the current approach is not enough for a painter player to reasonably win a 6 round legacy event. After sideboard a miracles player will bring an armada of removal and interaction for our plan and simply grind the painter player into dust. Swords, ware/tear, terminus, snapcaster, Mentor, counterbalance, etc. etc. A painter player trying to "go under" this game plan is just foolhardy.
I believe jack has built the foundation for the best approach to this. Sulfur elemental's, Adjani's/nahiri's, lightning bolt's, as well as the typical gamut of hedge-mage among others. I believe the next approach is go one step further, for all intents and purposes, a transformation sideboard.
-4 painter servant
-4 grindstone
The thesis is to go combo-less and force your opponent to play around it while executing a much more robust and sustainable game plan. Let their removal and interaction rot.
Play a better long game then them.
I still am playing around with cards as potential options but thus far would be interested in:
2-3 sulfur elemental
3-4 plainswalkers (2 new chandra, 2 adjani)
1-2 hedge-mage
3-4 lightning bolt
0-1 plains (your 20th land)
**This also provides a strong base for games against Death and Taxes and delver match ups (although the combo is there fine there - this plan might be stronger).**
I would post a list, but at this point is not about the list, its about the idea of how to approach certain match ups.
Quote:
Originally Posted by mcbain
So I agree about parts of your post, but for the general miracles strategy I don't. Boarding out the combo is not the best course of action to beat them, mainly since we are not set up to be a premier aggro or control deck aka we run a lot of really bad cards that are only good when they are together. Taking out the combo leaves you with what, like 4 recruiters some welders, and random planeswalkers to try to deal them 20 damage. Rather, the combo lets you attack from multiple angles and frankly is sometimes the only way to escape weak board states. The combo facilitates the beatdown by hamstringing them. So many times I have forced them to do something because I have painter/stone out with mana ready to go but not activating it while i keep attacking with dorks. This leads to even trades on card advantage, which then clears the way for walkers or another painter to close it out. I'll go into how I'm boarding in a second. Plus Grindstone can screw up their balance and guard against fateseal. I wouldn't ever side it out.
For the parts I agree with, the general sideboard construction you are talking about is where I am currently heading. This is what I am playing, with some good results (two 4-1 leagues)
3 Lightning Bolt
2 Pyroclasm
1 Duergar Hedge-Mage
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 ensnaring bridge
2 Sulfur Elemental
2 Chandra, Torch of Defiance
2 Nahiri, the Harbinger
It sets up nicely vs DnT which I know is huge in paper, nice against miracles, and has enough removal for 4c delver. Those are the three main pillars, and the numbers translate nicely into the boarding. With this setup, I have chosen to face ANT as mainly a race, also because even before that thorn didn't really do much to stall them, Eldrazi and Miracles keep it in check, and thorn was only being used in a few matchups. Miser's crypt is the least used card, but is totally necessary.
Anyways, for Miracles I have usually been siding in the 3 bolts, hedge, 2 sulfur, 4 walker, 2nd bridge. That is a lot to bring out, but it is actually a very clean transition that keeps the combo in: 3 petal, 1 led, 3 tutor, 4 moon. Yes, it is slower, but the change in card quality for us helps us have a stronger mid-game that can fight through their plethora of removal. Actual walker breakdown I'm still less sure about, but with the boarding out of the moons sadly we can't play Koth. It's really a competition between Ajani, Chandra, and Nahiri, the optimal split will need to be worked on. Just my two cents.
And yes, I don't have a Magus in the 75 and I still feel queasy every match knowing I don't have access to one.
Edit: now that I think more about it in the morning, I think I've been leaving one tutor in against miracles rather than bringing the second bridge in
How'd all the folks that ended up going to EE end up doing? I ended up going 2-3 drop losing to grixis delver, UR omnitell (His apes were bigger than my apes) and infect. All the matchups felt winnable. I think I could have mulligan'd a little more aggressively to sideboard cards but ended up keeping hands that didn't really align with what my opponents did e.g. kept an ensnaring bridge hand against the pyromancer draw from grixis and kept a hand with a single burn spell against the infect player who just played a bunch of creatures out on his first few turns.
It looked like there were a fair number of painter players, round 1 I sat next to 2 of them and I saw a couple more walking around watching matches. Had a bunch of people also tell me that they were 4 recruiters away from building painter which is always good.
I was at EE as well, playing mono-red Painter. I won vs. 12-Post, Grixis Delver, Maverick, 8 Thalia Eldrazi Stompy, and Burn (first time ever). Lost vs. Burn, Omni, and Dragon Stompy. I am not going to write a tournament report because frankly, I have a terrible memory, and I forgot my notebook for note taking. :( I can, however, give my impressions.
I had resolved Chandra seven times yesterday and won six of them (even once vs. Burn), three times from the ultimate (once with double Top). I lost to Ace on Dragon Stompy, but he mentioned if I was more aggressive with Chandra -3, she may have won me the game. I only won four matches with Grindstone. The rest involved a combination Chandra burn, Jaya burn, 1/x + 2/x beats, Rabblemaster, or Fiery Confluence to the face.
Filigree was able to net me six life vs. Burn and traded with Guide once.
This was the deck I was on: http://tappedout.net/mtg-decks/14-09...o-red-painter/
This was the SB strat I was on: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1...q-JPIyNX0/edit
Filigree was cute and did work, but was never a tutor target I was actively looking for. So it falls in the category of win-more. I may swap it out for a second Rabblemaster in the SB.
Thanks to Mapson and G le p for your feedbacks!
PS: I think the threat of combo has won me more game than actually comboing off. In my opinion, and from my own experience, Imperial Painter is a prison deck first and a combo deck second.
😫😫😫Quote:
Originally Posted by L10
http://darksouls.wdfiles.com/local--...ry-carving.png
I tend to find the Painter + Grindstone combo unreliable and easily disrupted. The ability to win out of nowhere is fantastic, and I think the inherent synergy/utility that both Painter and Grindstone provides makes this deck great. But a lot of times, all you need is a Grey Ogre to win the game, which is why I am partial to mono-red. I started playing Painter with Shortcake. It also had to do with person style and physilosophy. I still think Shortcake is strong, but is not how I want to approach the game.
Jack, firstly I agree with each of your points but struggle to agree with the whole - similar to your comment about my post. My goal currently is to explore alternative paradigms to the match up, specifically the sideboard match up. I simply find executing a game plan against a deck with a seemingly infinite amount of removal and interaction to be the literal definition of insanity.
Yes, this is true. Our opponent will die to a sulfur elemental and goblin welder. In many match ups a miracles deck will side out most of their win conditions simply because it doesn't matter and gets in the way of the game plan. This is no different.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kap'n Cook
Again, yes. However our multiple angles are quickly become one big angle which our opponent has covered off with removal.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kap'n Cook
I hate grindstoning a miracles player. Give you cards to snapcaster, clear your deck of lands - essentially a punisher mechanic. Fate seal, sure there is that.Quote:
Originally Posted by Kap'n Cook
My long-game approach to miracles attempts:
1. maintain a strong early game due to keeping acceleration in (4 lotus, 1 SSG) to allow for early protected planeswalkers, blood moons.
2. help keep "red mana up" while developing our board and stave off slightly aggressive miracles players who could land an early CB.
3. improve our blood moon game against them by keeping petals and boarding in a plains to allow us to cast our white mana bombs while locking out their mana, shuffle effects, and flexibility.
4. improve our anti-plains plan by playing blood moons and adjani (and points 1 and 2) a painter player can set up situations more easily wherein a miracles player looses access to white mana, severely hurting their ability to interact.
5. After sideboard WE become the better top deck. Through a combination of welder, planeswalkers, and 4x top's we can out draw our opponent.
I could maybe see leaving 1 of each in for the combo but I really tired of trying to overwhelm the best deck in the format by seemingly playing right into it.
I agree with your assessment of the pillars of a paper format from a perspective which we care about - Miracles, delver, and DnT. I would add one caveat for me, storm, but it seems to be somewhat regional. Decks like Eldrazi do put up the numbers but are not worth our consideration on account of our overwhelming cards like blood moon, painter and bridge.
On a final note I feel the pyroclasm spot is between fiery confluence, pyrokenesis, and pyroclasm - largely preference, meta, and finer deck synergy.
Fwiw, miracles used to be a match I really struggled against but now i've found that it's a lot easier to play against. I can understand the frustration, it's really aggravating sometimes when you do everything in your power to win but your opponent just has all the right answers at the right time. I've started approaching this matchup like we're a combo/control deck with the most important cards in this matchup being top, grindstone and obviously blasts. Top allows us to play a longer game and filter through garbage. I think that most of the games that I lose against miracles are games where I run out of gas and have to rely on topdecks, top really helps to mitigate this. Grindstone is just a way that we can interact with them either through or counterbalance lock or screwing up their miracles triggers. Blasts are pretty self explanatory. Postboard is the same thing but i'm more willing to keep hands with some of my sideboard cards substituted for a couple of those core pieces.Quote:
Originally Posted by mcbain
I really don't aggressively grindstone in this matchup unless i'm under the impression that my opponent is attempting to set up a miracles, they reveal something that I don't want them to have or (very rarely) I feel like I can't keep up with the card advantage they are getting from a predict. Turn 1 moon is pretty solid too when you're on the play but I would not rely on that only on the draw/postboard. The biggest point is that you just have to keep a counterbalance off the table, every other threat that they play is arbitrary. From what i've seen most miracles players shave some number of entreats because of how clunky they end up being and bring in cards like clique and venser as slightly less clunky win conditions. Sometimes we just don't get hands that align well with what they're doing and just lose e.g. getting the blast heavy hand against the mentor draw.
Imo the best alternative gameplan to miracles is planeswalkers, in general (minus counterspells) there are a lot fewer ways for miracles players to actually interact with planeswalkers. I think that you can make a case for a more aggressive plan with some combination of the rabblemaster effects but imo their deck is very well equipped to deal with that when we don't play cotv like the moon stompy decks do.
I think that this is where our strategies differ. I think that giving up some portion of the early game is fine because it gives us time to setup our later turns. I usually shave some amount of moon, fast mana and e-tutors for sideboard cards that are just better. What we get from the sideboard is just way better than what we're boarding out. Minus the planeswalkers I don't really think there are very many big threats that we can slam early that single handedly win us the game. You can probably make an argument for blood moon but postboard most miracles players will more than likely keep hands that can interact with it in some capacity. Postboard you basically just force your opponent to deal with so many different angles to attack i.e. the combo, planeswalkers and creature beatdowns that you can force them to awkwardly dig for an answer.Quote:
Originally Posted by mcbain
In agreement here, I think right now you can probably make an argument for any of the burn/board wipes. The big caveat on fiery confluence is that you're trying to resolve a 4 cmc card in a format full of wastelands, ports and dazes/spell pierces so there will be times that you lose to not being able to cast your boardsweeper on time. Otherwise I think it's a card with a pretty high ceiling and having modal stuff in red is always a plus.Quote:
Originally Posted by mcbain
I've found the opposite, I think we're surprisingly resilient. This is all hyperbole but I think that I don't think that i've won any of my recent matches with creature beatdown. Between the pyromancers, mentors and other white weenies it's just something that is getting hard to do. Almost all of which outclass most of the crappy creatures that we play minus painter (1/3 :cool:) so it's a lot easier focusing on the combo than it is actually trying to win via creature beatdown. In the end though sometimes you gotta send harambe into the redzone and show your opponent you mean business. Just my 2 cents though.Quote:
Originally Posted by L10
<This. (Me like)Quote:
Originally Posted by CptHaddock
Weighing in myself, I would never side out grindstone against Miracles for most of the reasons stated above. First, you can completely mess with their game plan. Grindstone in response to a top draw activation is really good. Also, I have VERY AGGRESSIVELY grindstoned many Miracles players and have won dozens of games that way. You will never see a Miracles player get more salty than when they get grindstoned to death 2-4 cards at a time. As long as I am not advancing their game plan by doing so (i.e., they have a top out and I'm just giving them more looks), grindstoning can often hit the 3-4 actual threats they have. The rest is just fluff.
Don't get me wrong, I also think jamming in Planeswalkers against Miracles is definitely where we want to be. I haven't had a lot of experience with the new Chandra yet. Both ultimates I assume just win the game. I think Chandra is probably better at taking out creatures as they don't have to be tapped. However, I also really like the enchantment removal of Nahiri and the fact that, although Nahiri's ultimate is a little more fragile, you get there much quicker and it usually wins on the spot.
As for confluence vs pyroclasm vs etc., I agree...play what you like. I am still on confluence as it has single-handedly won me so many games because of the artifact removal attached. If that wasn't there, I would certainly be playing something else.
Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
That's fair. My main point is that if you can prevent your opponent from winning, the win condition itself is usually a matter of convenience. Whether it be the Painter+Grindstone, Chandra burn/ultimate, Jaya burn, or beatdown. Against combo decks, Miracles, and Shardless BUG, I often find Goblin Rabblemaster to be a decent win condition. Against Emrakul, I always SB out my Grindstones because I do not want to assemble a three card combo. This is why I consider Imperial Painter a prison deck first, and a combo deck second.Quote:
Originally Posted by CptHaddock
Took down a big prize local legacy tourney yesterday to win a play-set of Eternal Masters. Admittedly, it was a magical day as far as pairings went.
First, here's the list I played (which I would CERTAINLY NOT PLAY AGAIN!)...
// Lands
4 [ZEN] Arid Mesa
1 [MR] Great Furnace
3 [EX] City of Traitors
2 [B] Plateau
4 [TE] Ancient Tomb
3 [ZEN] Mountain (3a)
1 [ZEN] Marsh Flats
1 [ZEN] Plains (4)
// Creatures
4 [SHM] Painter's Servant
3 [P3] Imperial Recruiter
2 [UL] Goblin Welder
1 [ALA] Ethersworn Canonist
2 [PLC] Simian Spirit Guide
// Spells
4 [TE] Grindstone
4 [IA] Pyroblast
4 [CH] Blood Moon
3 [SH] Ensnaring Bridge
3 [ARE] Enlightened Tutor
3 [B] Red Elemental Blast
3 [TE] Lotus Petal
3 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
2 [SOI] Nahiri, the Harbinger
// Sideboard
SB: 1 [RTR] Rest in Peace
SB: 1 [C14] Containment Priest
SB: 1 [OD] Sphere of Law
SB: 1 [DS] Trinisphere
SB: 1 [FUT] Magus of the Moon
SB: 1 [MMA] Engineered Explosives
SB: 1 [M15] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 2 [C15] Fiery Confluence
SB: 3 [MMA] Sudden Shock
SB: 1 [CMD] Duergar Hedge-Mage
SB: 1 [KLD] Chandra, Torch of Defiance
SB: 1 [SOM] Mindslaver
I was expecting a lot of Eldrazi and Miracles/control so I went with an ensnaring bridge heavy build for the Eldrazi and maindeck planewalkers for Miracles.
One thing I realized with this build though is that I had no alt win condition other than dork beatdown against Emrakul decks. That would be the biggest benefit of playing Chandra main over Nahiri. Anyway, more on that later.
Tourney was 5 rounds with I think 28 people and went like this:
Rnd 1 vs Death and Taxes
This guy was playing a very updated version of the list with a full compliment of new Thalia, white recruiter and Sanctum Prelate. I know that Sanctum Prelate did MAJOR work for him all day and it really makes me want to play it in the board. Game 1 I stumbled on mana and payed for it with Thalia and mana denial lands.
Game 2: I was able to land a bridge to start to stabilize but was again short on mana so had a bunch of 3 drops in my hand. He was able to blink out the bridge with a flickerwisp and finish me off.
0-2, 0-1 matches *thought this was going to be a short day.
Rnd 2 vs infect
Game 1 my opponent kept a very strange hand of no threats. He had a few counters and lands and dealt with my early drops (a grindstone and 2 blood moons I think). Eventually though I got redundant pieces out and I don't think he ever saw a threat on the board.
Game 2 he dropped 3 threats right away but I saw an early blood moon and a sudden shock and I think I took 2 poison all game before I was able to combo off.
2-0, 1-1 matches
Rnd 3 vs Maverick (with dark depths combo)
Game 1 he dropped a turn 1 deathrite followed by a turn 2 knight of the reliquary. I played a turn 1 top and had some blasts and blood moon in hand. Opponent plays a thespians stage turn 3 and basically has an instant speed 20/20 flying indestructible dude on the ready and passes. My end of turn is to spin the top, hoping to see a bridge. I don't. My turn 3 I play a fetch land, fetch, and blind draw from the top hoping to hit either a blind bridge or painter so that I could play painter and blast his stage in response to it's trigger. I miss. So, I am basically dead and decide to just hold my breath and play the blood moon. Of course, my opponent activates knight in response but doesn't actually tap the land he sacs for mana and ends up grabbing a Plains! I'm alive! He swings a couple times with dudes but I am able to combo off before he kills me.
Game 2 he is drops turn 2 qasali pridemage in response to my turn 1 grindstone but I am able to sudden shock it away before he can use it and I combo off by turn 4.
2-0, 2-1 matches
Rnd 4 vs Lands
I get a turn 2 Blood Moon via a turn 1 enlightened tutor both games and its over. He does make the huge mistake of fetching non-basic on his turn 1 and shows me 2 krosan grips in his hand that he can't play at the end of the game.
2-0, 3-1 matches
Rnd 5: ID into top 8, 6th place.
Top 8
Rnd 1 vs 12-Post
I've played this guys several times in the past and 12-post is his pet deck as painter is mine, so we both know what we are playing. He usually knows to only keep a hand where he has a basic or a way to get a basic early. Fortunately, this didn't happen and both games were won with a very early blood moon (he tried to counter my game two blood moon with a hydroblast but I had pyroblast backup with a monkey to pitch), followed by dork beats. I never did see Nahiri but this is a MU that it wouldn't have helped much and I wish I would have been playing Chandra and/or Ghirapar Aether Grid in it's place.
Top 4 vs Eldrazi
Auto-win. With 3 ensnaring bridge, that and blood moons just shut this deck down.
Finals vs Death & Taxes (the guy who beat me round 1)
So first place was the EM playset or $400 store credit and 2nd was Tundra or $125 store credit. I offer him a draw and we would just split the store credit. He obviously declines, knowing how he wrecked me Rnd 1.
Game 1 more of the same and I am locked down and dead pretty early.
Game 2 I see more of my SB and am able to control his board and have time to combo off after I lock down most of his lands with a moon.
Game 3: he has to mulligan to 5. Before he takes his second mulligan, I actually offer him a draw again and he still declines. So he draws his 5 cards. He plays a turn 1 wasteland and no vial. I play a fetch and pass. He plays turn 2 port and passes. I play 2nd fetch. He misses his third land drop and I play third fetch and crack them all to play a blood moon. He never sees a basic plains. GG. Greedy sir.
Like I said, I generally had really good MUs other than D&T. Never saw Miracles although there was a lot of land-still type decks there where planeswalkers would still have been good. I kinda like the triple bridge build right now. I am seriously considering going back to the aether grid build with opals in place of the monkeys and 4 great furnace. Replace the 2 Nahiri's main with a grid and either a Chandra or something like Jaya, LED or Chandra.
I can't stress enough how good sudden shocks have been for me. Any other burn spell would have been a game loss against the Pridemage and in the D&T game, as he always had an early mother out. I also took out Sulfur Elementals in place of the Chandra and Mindslaver the night before the tourney because they just weren't performing that well against Miracles for me online. I obviously wish I had them still against the D&T MU.
Anyway, it was fun to play in a paper tournament again and do well. I did qualify for the SCQ Invitational with this deck earlier in the summer so am going to Atlanta in December for that. Guess I need to start concentrating on Modern and Standard for a little while :eek:. Kinda hope I scrub out early and can play in the Legacy Classic on Sunday.
I saw that and went :eek: but read the report and didn't see any mention of mindslaver and became :cry:. I have no self control so if I was playing 1 in the board I would bring it in every game. I'm also a fan of sudden shock, primarily because i'm a child who wants his hand held in the infect matchup.Quote:
Originally Posted by drude1
On a more serious note that manabase looks sketch as hell. Running Nahiri main certainly warrants a basic plains but I imagine that with 2 non-red producing lands you can get a lot of awkward hands. I imagine since you're potentially changing the manabase after this tournament it's not something you'd try in the future?
Hate to tag along your report but I ended up winning an IQ as well. Got $250 and ended up spending some of that buying some beta REBs. Matchups played like they normally play out and only 1 really stands out and I am still kicking myself for punting that one.
I'll post my list below. I think the only changes that I want to make is find a way to fit some board control planeswalkers in the board. I feel like we want some combination of game winning planeswalkers e.g. koth, nahiri, chandra and some amount of board control planeswalkers i.e. chandra and ajani. I haven't gotten a chance to try out Chandra but she seems like she's in both camps.
2-0 Shardless
1-2 BG Turbo Depths (This would have been a 2-0 but I punted game 1 by conceding when I had him dead, won game 2 by manually grinding him out with 2 grindstones and lost game 3 by keeping a kind of slow hand and not finding a bridge or moon effect.)
2-1 RUG Delver
2-0 Miracles
ID
We did a top 4 since we didn't have many people show up and it was weird. GWu Enchantress, BG Turbo Depths, Rw Painter and RUG Delver which was the most normal of the bunch.
2-1 BG Turbo Depths (Rematch, no punting in this match.)
2-0 RUG Delver
4 Ancient Tomb
3 City of Traitors
2 Plateau
1 Great Furnace
5 Fetch Lands
4 Mountain
4 Imperial Recruiter
4 Painter's Servant
3 Goblin Welder
2 Simian Spirit Guide
1 Jaya Ballard, Task Mage
1 Phyrexian Revoker
4 Blood Moon
4 Grindstone
3 Sensei's Divining Top
3 Lotus Petal
1 Lion's Eye Diamond
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Engineered Explosives
4 Pyroblast
2 Red Elemental Blast
3 enlightened tutor
The board
4 Sudden Shock
2 Fiery Confluence
1 Ethersworn Canonist
1 Trinisphere
1 Rest in Peace
1 Tormod's Crypt
1 Ensnaring Bridge
1 Duergar Hedge-Mage
1 Magus of the Moon
2 Nahiri, the Harbinger (Because i'm a pauper and don't want to pay around $40 for 2 Chandras.)
Not quite sure what you mean by sketchy manabase...playing a plains over the fourth Mountain you mean? 2 non-red producing lands? There are 8 non-red producing lands: 4 tomb, 3 city and the Plains. Most people only play 7, I get it. But like you said, with 6 spells in my main that need white mana I wanted to hedge the white a little bit more. I never had a problem.Quote:
Originally Posted by CptHaddock
Mindslaver comes in against control MUs such as Miracles. You basically are either hard-casting it or more likely Nahiri ultimate for it. It's a little gimmicky but it has straight out won me multiple games against Miracles online so I wanted to try it out. As it turns out, I never played against control so it didn't come in. I also never actually saw Nahiri all day. The biggest flaw in my list was that Nahiri couldn't actually do anything for me against Emrakul decks. If you are going to play Nahiri as an alt win condition, you need Emrakul or Mindslaver or something like that in the main to make her ultimate worthwhile. That alone is why I would play Chandra main and Nahiri in the board. I also do really like Aether Grid as an alt win condition as it also serves to lend a hand in MUs like elves and D&T. The problem with that build in general though is 2 cards: Null rod and Pernicious Deed. Those two cards just wreck an artifact heavy build of the deck. Nothing like getting your lands shut off or destroyed by splash hate.
If I were to play a non-Aether Grid build of the deck today I would run this:
// Lands
4 [ZEN] Arid Mesa
1 [MR] Great Furnace
3 [EX] City of Traitors
2 [B] Plateau
4 [TE] Ancient Tomb
4 [ZEN] Mountain (3a)
1 [BFZ] Plains (4F)
// Creatures
4 [SHM] Painter's Servant
3 [P3] Imperial Recruiter
2 [UL] Goblin Welder
1 [NPH] Spellskite
1 [ALA] Ethersworn Canonist
2 [PLC] Simian Spirit Guide
// Spells
4 [TE] Grindstone
4 [IA] Pyroblast
4 [CH] Blood Moon
2 [SH] Ensnaring Bridge
3 [ARE] Enlightened Tutor
3 [B] Red Elemental Blast
3 [TE] Lotus Petal
3 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
1 [KLD] Chandra, Torch of Defiance
1 [MI] Flex (Lion's Eye Diamond or Jaya or 3rd bridge)
// Sideboard
SB: 2 [SOI] Nahiri, the Harbinger
SB: 1 [RTR] Rest in Peace
SB: 1 [C14] Containment Priest
SB: 1 [OD] Sphere of Law
SB: 1 [DS] Trinisphere
SB: 1 [FUT] Magus of the Moon
SB: 1 [MMA] Engineered Explosives
SB: 1 [M15] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 2 [C15] Fiery Confluence
SB: 3 [MMA] Sudden Shock
SB: 1 [CMD] Duergar Hedge-Mage
This is what I would play right now if I wanted to play Aether Grid:
// Lands
4 [ZEN] Arid Mesa
4 [MR] Great Furnace
3 [EX] City of Traitors
1 [B] Plateau
4 [TE] Ancient Tomb
3 [ZEN] Mountain (3a)
// Creatures
4 [SHM] Painter's Servant
3 [P3] Imperial Recruiter
3 [UL] Goblin Welder
1 [ALA] Ethersworn Canonist
// Spells
4 [TE] Grindstone
4 [IA] Pyroblast
4 [CH] Blood Moon
2 [SH] Ensnaring Bridge
3 [ARE] Enlightened Tutor
3 [B] Red Elemental Blast
3 [TE] Lotus Petal
3 [CHK] Sensei's Divining Top
1 [MI] Lion's Eye Diamond
2 [SOM] Mox Opal
1 [ORI] Ghirapur AEther Grid
// Sideboard
SB: 2 [SOI] Nahiri, the Harbinger
SB: 1 [RTR] Rest in Peace
SB: 1 [C14] Containment Priest
SB: 1 [OD] Sphere of Law
SB: 1 [DS] Trinisphere
SB: 1 [FUT] Magus of the Moon
SB: 1 [MMA] Engineered Explosives
SB: 1 [M15] Tormod's Crypt
SB: 2 [C15] Fiery Confluence
SB: 3 [MMA] Sudden Shock
SB: 1 [TSP] Jaya Ballard, Task Mage
the only thing I struggle with in this list is that I would ideally like 3 x of tutor, REB and bridge. If I knew I was going to see a lot of D&T and eldrazi I would shave a blast instead of the bridge. I would also cut the plains in this build because all 5 of my "fast mana" produce white. Like I said, if wasn't for null rod and deed, I would play this list all day. It's also a little weaker to wasteland but the mox opals kinda make up for that.
Also, congrats on your IQ win. You going to Atlanta?
Congrats to both of you!
And it definitely is nice reading...
Yeah mostly the Plains + Non-red fetch. Although this is probably just me misevaluating the games I had where I tried to run a basic plains (alongside with changing my fetches to arid mesa) which didn't lead to good results. Glad it worked out for you. I feel the same way about Nahiri as well but I haven't found a good target for her ultimate that I like. I've run into too many situations against miracles where a combo piece gets surgical'd and the best target for the nahiri ultimate is a recruiter. Mindslaver seems really interesting and I think i'm going to try it out, thanks for the suggestion.Quote:
Originally Posted by drude1
Congrats on your win as well, I someone how forgot to include that in my original post. Not really planning on going to Atlanta as I primarily play legacy, I just went to the IQ because it was a legacy even in the area and I was free this past weekend. Hopefully I didn't rob anyone who actually wanted to go the invitational of going.
@zangoasyl Thanks!
Guys, do you think this has sb potential or is the cmc too high?
Seems like a good catch all, even Jace or cb from miracles but obviously has some drawbacks, especially when considering opponent's fatties...
http://media.wizards.com/2016/bn8f9t...lOGSAzZ_EN.png
What are you bringing this in against? I don't personally think the CMC is too high but I can't imagine what you want it against. We have blasts for Jace or CB.Quote:
Originally Posted by zangoasyl
Hi all,
I top 4'd our regional NW Legacy event with Strawberry Shortcake last weekend losing in the semi's to 4c Loam on two very strong chalice draws and two average to poor draws on my end. All around a great time though.
The event is streamed and the metagame is well reported and documented (not sure if fully updated, although I did win the Feb 20, 2016 tourney as well which is posted there):
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...tagame-Results
and
https://www.twitch.tv/cardkingdom/v/97854630 I am streamed at about the 3 hour mark against RUG Delver where I get run over game 1 due to no red sources and claw back the next two games.
My matches were:
2-0 Eldrazi MVP: Jaya
2-0 Aluren MVP: Ajani
2-1 Miracles MVP: Ajani
2-1 Canadian Threshold MVP: Ajani
ID Grixis Delver
ID Dnt (I think)
2-1 Tin Fins (QF) MVP: Opponent getting disruption heavy hands g2/3 and not just killing me t1, although he did turn 1 me in game 1.
1-2 4c Loam (SF) MVP: bad draws and dying to chalice on one both games.
My List was:
4 Ancient Tomb
4 Arid Mesa
1 Wooded Foothills
3 City of Traitors
1 Great Furnace
4 Mountain
2 Plateau
3 Goblin Welder
4 Imperial Recruiter
1 Jaya Ballard, Task Mage
4 Painter's Servant
1 Simian Spirit Guide
1 Phyrexian Revoker
2 Enlightened Tutor
4 Pyroblast
2 Red Elemental Blast
4 Blood Moon
1 Engineered Explosives
3 Ensnaring Bridge
4 Grindstone
4 Lotus Petal
3 Sensei's Divining Top
SIDEBOARD
2 Ajani Vengent
1 Duergar Hedge-Mage
2 Ethersworn Canonist
3 sudden shock
2 Sulfur Elemental
1 rest in peace
1 sphere of law
1 warmth
1 plains
1 enlightened tutor
Some quick explanations:
Plains - Was great all day. Sideboard out your one wooded foothills or lotus petal against any decks where you want to cast blood moon and have access to white. Against miracles brought in for a petal to provide better long term mana.
Warmth / sphere of law - day of meta call after seeing a few to many burn players. Would have been a sulfur elemental and a 3ball otherwise, maybe a fiery confluence...
Sudden shock - where you want to be. Very good in a meta with aluren.
Ajani - I used all of Ajani's abilities during the day. I won game 3 on miracles after I just helixed him for 6. Geddon'd Aluren. Helix against delver. Very strong card. Will be testing new Chandra some more, not sure if she is better or not. Ajani is much better than Koth and most chandras. The ability to lock things down is huge. Often people are operating on one basic under a moon and Adjani just seals the deal.
Revoker - didn't really do anything all day but was never sad to see it.
Eng. Explosives - wasn't that great for me during the day. Realistically it was still a very strong out to have, I just never had it at the right times. I did preemptively put it down on 2 against miracles which was good.
If I were to play next weekend it would run the same except for perhaps changing the warmth and sphere of law.
I learned A LOT watching your match, Goblin Welder is capable of things I never considered.Quote:
Originally Posted by mcbain
Thank you for sharing this!
Goblin welder is the reason you will fall in love with this deck. Quite often its one of the best cards in the deck. And yes, that game two against RUG really shows some of the strengths of the welder. Glad you liked it.Quote:
Originally Posted by chaosjace
Well that one announcer thinks he understands Painter, but pretty much never agreed with anything he said.
Also, did you not side in Rest in Peace vs RUG? Shuts off Goose and Goyf, just wondering on your thoughts behind it.
The RIP trigger can be Stifled and RIP turns off Welder, which is also good. Though, I'd still probably SB RIP in.
Personally I still side rip in but I don't prioritize it
@mcbain Congrats! I caught the tail end of the match you had against tinfins and thought I recognized the name.
@Frenzied Fugue discussion. The card seems super powerful but it's really dependent on what your opponent plays. I would much rather have strong cards that work regardless of my opponents gameplan rather than cards that depend on my opponent doing things.
Maybe I misheard but the commentator said something about painter being bad against Eldrazi too...Quote:
Originally Posted by Moomba
Honestly, i was never quite sure if he was grixis or not. He had very heavy delver draws. RIP is definetly a bring in against BUG and RUG decks for goyf's, goose, DRS.
Sent from my SM-G925W8 using Tapatalk
Oh he definitely did. Also said our deck is meant to beat Miracles.Quote:
Originally Posted by CptHaddock
I'll be going to a legacy fnm tonight (I'll put a report up when I'm back) and am wondering what you guys think I can cut from my list for a sudden shock
4 imperial recruiter (I only have 1 so have gamble, E. Tutor and a welder)
4 painter's servant
3 goblin welder
2 simian spirit guide
1 magus of the moon
1 jaya ballard
1 ethersworn canonist
4 grindstone
3 lotus petal
2 Sensei's divining top
1 ensnaring bridge
4 blood moon
1 nahiri, harbinger
4 pyroblast
3 red elemental blast
3 enlightened tutor
4 city of traitors (using 4 crystal vein)
4 ancient tomb
4 arid mesa (using 1 bloodstained)
3 mountain
2 plateau
1 plains
1 great furnace
Side board
1 trinisphere (using surgical extraction)
1 spellskite
1 sudden shock
1 Kozilek's return
1 ensnaring bridge
1 duergar hedge-mage
1 wear/tear
1 rest in peace
1 grafdigger's cage
1 ethersworn canonist
1 engineered explosives
1 pithing needle
1 chandra, torch of defiance
2 fiery confluence
That's quite the sideboard!Quote:
Originally Posted by Valleysdai
Most of it are valid options, except for wear/tear which isn't too useful in our list as it can't be fetched in any way. A Hedge-Mage is usually enough, eventually paired with an Engineered Explosives as I see you got too.
I'm no big fan of Kozilek's Return in legacy as the devoid isn't of use and especially in our deck we can't utilize the eldrazi-trigger. Could be another Sudden Shock, maybe a Pyroclasm, or if your meta is high on DnT I'd a Sulfur Elemental or 3rd Fiery Confluence.