The matchup is bad but winnable. I beat Sneak at vegas in round 8, thankfully his cantrips didn't agree with him and I had outs to blood moon both times.
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The matchup is bad but winnable. I beat Sneak at vegas in round 8, thankfully his cantrips didn't agree with him and I had outs to blood moon both times.
I wonder if Mirage Mirror might help this MU. We can play it pro-actively (or from they Show and Tell) and copy whatever creature are cheated into play. The only problematic situation would be a Show and Tell into Omniscience into Emrakul because of the additional turn (and Anhilator). What do you think about Mirror ?!
I'll certainly test out a couple of Mirrors in the arsenal, it looks like it should shore up a few points in this atrocious MU without being a liability in others. I'm on blue to boot, so Ruins will be of some use. Surely Mirror will help in the mirror if we've reached Stage 2 of the matchup, in which one gets to have mana due to one not being too far behind in the Exploration+Loam+GQ race.
I can see Mirror helping in the mirror, if I can get to 4 mana, because I can copy an Exploration with it and still cast Loam. The side with more Explorations wins because it runs the other side out of lands. The Bojuka Bog subgame can interrupt things, to be sure, but I contend that it's the Exploration race that is the centerpiece of the matchup if it is properly played out. I think the blue variant is at an advantage in the mirror because it plays fewer copies of Dark Depths (which is a liability half the time), because it has an extra win condition in the form of Mox Diamond mill, and because Engineered Explosives can flip (or equalize) the Exploration race and kill Mox Diamonds. Taking out those Diamonds is the last nail in the coffin for an opposing deck that's losing on land drops. It cuts them off from casting Life from the Loam any more.
If one is behind by a ton EE isn't going to help, and if the board is at parity it isn't going to help either, but it sure is sweet for coming back from just a little behind (nuking the other side's 1 or 2 Explorations over my 0 or 1) or utterly eliminating the other deck's chances to get back into the game when ahead.
I didn't sit down to compose an Ode to Engineered Explosives, but that's what happened. Oops. Though I suppose it's the deck space I give to this stuff (which could me more copies of Dark Depths and/or a MD Karakas) that makes my Sneaky Show matchup a bit off.
One question Sparkii, would you keep in EE for the Sneaky Show matchup? I kind of like having it around for Blood Moons, being loathe to cast a Krosan Grip on anything that doesn't say Sneak Attack on it.
I think I keep one in. I've also EE'ed some petals as they try to play their way through tax artifacts.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lormador
I will test some Japanese technology against sneakshow, Song of the Dryads, which I think is a more flexible card, great when they play show and tell blindly, and also an answer to a tappout sneakattack or bloodmoon if I don't draw a Krosan Grip.
Funny enough, you can copy whatever you Song with thespian's stage. I have a friend who put Song in off Show and Tell and got emrakul, then copied it and won.Quote:
Originally Posted by GoblinZ
Well that's kind of cool. I had no idea it worked like that.
It also still retains the "(2) Copy Target Land" Ability which is pretty silly.Quote:
Originally Posted by supremePINEAPPLE
very interesting...but I just found thisQuote:
Originally Posted by Sparkii
http://www.mtgsalvation.com/forums/m...vs-omniscience
I found it is not a suitable SB card against show and tell.
In Red, there is a card available for SnT matchup, Frenzied Fugue.
I just realized today that the implications of the Miracles ban are far reaching and should change my deck and sideboarding more than it has so far. For instance, why do I still have Molten Vortex main? The argument for that was based half on DnT's Sanctum Prelate and half on getting under Counterbalance. With the second half (actually far more than half) not an issue any longer, I'm guessing we're better served by Seismic Assault (if not just more Fires). My beloved Ancient Grudge may not be worth it anymore. Pithing Needles used to be all over the meta to hit Top and Jace, and we were just splash damage. There's far less reason for the average deck to sling Needles now, especially Delver decks. No need for that single Grudge hedging against their Needle and Winter Orb.
This runs into the same issue. You need a target for an aura and since they come into play at the same time you cannot target what they are bringing in with show and tell.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jsang
Molten Vortex is my favorite card among all the removals we have access to. It comes very quickly on the board and prevent BUG, Delver and DnT deck to lock you in a bad board situation. I'm maybe not neutral with my judgment as I run 4 copies main and really enjoy it. Seismic Assault is far better but far more costly to play. My own configuration is 4 Molten and 2 Barbarian. But in a shell with Punishing Fire, a single Seismic Assault might be more accurate now than a single Molten Vortex to complete the Punishing package. I still play Revoker/Needle to prevent Shaman, Aether Vial or even Ballista activations.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lormador
In my opinion, the fact that Counterbalance is now away dosent change that much my sideboard or mainboard options. It just make Life from the Loam and our tutors package more reliable. The only thing I think about is "does Krosan Grip still justify its slots over Naturalize ?".
Isn't a trigger in this case that happens after it enters because it starts with the words "when"? The rules suggest it is too "The triggered ability triggers both when Frenzied Fugue enters the battlefield and at the beginning of your upkeep. You don’t have to choose only one."Quote:
Originally Posted by inevitablepnut
Edit: Thinking this through, it enters enchanting anything as it's an enchant permanent aura (a land?), the trigger goes on the stack, trigger resolves and you get their permanent but they've had priority so have cast cunning wish, drawn 14 cards with GB, activated the sneak attack for a fatty. This is only worth playing if they're 100% dropping Emrakul in off the SnT, pretty much all other targets don't lead to good game states for us?
Only being one mana more and difficult to interact certainly does, the cards you want Krosan Grip for a strong/must answer cards that need to be addressed (Blood Moon, Rest In Peace). If your naturalize is countered, odds are, you aren't drawing a second one.Quote:
Originally Posted by kravkenov
Good point.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lord_Mcdonalds
you can also tap grove to get pfire back while split second is on the stack and your opponent cant interact with the trigger.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lord_Mcdonalds
So many new names in here of late. Really this is awesome. Welcome everyone.
I love Grip. It would take a very special card to make me replace them. Also one that is cheap in foil since my grips are all foiled. Wait no, that has nothing to do with anything...
Edit: New land up, reprint of Holdout Settlement. Space is whittling down on our new Bike.
Actually, this does not work as Song of the Dryads is an aura and therefore must enter the battlefield attached to something. That cannot be something that is entering the battlefield at the same time as the aura. So your friend was lucky that no one called a judge ;-)Quote:
Originally Posted by Sparkii
Some other non-basic got spoiled as well (Survivors' Encampment), so there's at most 4 slots left, of which one seems to go to Crumbling Necropolis (Grixis land). So much for completing the cycle duals set :(.
Grip is spectacular. There's many instances split second comes in handy, down to being uncounterable, or taking care of annoying problems like vial. I've had so many DnT players think they're safe by holding vial on 3 and tapping out only to grip and punish them. I'd gladly pay the extra 1 mana over naturalize.
Hitting Aluren feels great too.
Grip is so much better than Beast Within? Beast within can remove preatry much everything. The slip second worth that much?
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New names!! I'm one of them. I just started playing MTG again recently. I use to play a fastbond cow deck and my friend turned me onto lands! Learning the deck and having a blast jamming local event every week!Quote:
Originally Posted by Dice_Box
Yes. We die on the spot if we let hate resolve, or don't remove it. We don't have counters, split second is the next best thing.Quote:
Originally Posted by procobrito
Welcome all newcomers!
I think that's an interesting question, Krosan Grip is the traditional answer but it's thinkable (at least) that some other spell might offer a feature more valuable than split second: in this case, hitting other permanent types. Dogmatically holding to the traditional ways is unlikely to yield benefit.Quote:
Originally Posted by procobrito
Krosan Grip's role is to defeat hate cards. Countermagic is live against us. While I think it's safe to assume most removal will come out in G2+3, counters will if anything increase. As the hate against us is extremely effective (Blood Moon), defending it with all available resources is a viable plan. It's analogous to how a control deck might play 'Defend the Ethersworn Canonist' against Storm, using Force and Flusterstorm against Chain of Vapor. Our case is, if anything, more intense. There might even be a Stage copying a basic and copying a Depths on the field, awaiting the momentary respite from the Moon to produce a 20/20.
So while there probably is some value out there from being able to hit other things, the strength of K Grip to make that specific play is, to me, persuasive.
In other news, what happened to Walking Ballista? Has the unfortunately art-challenged card been retired already?
Welcome, enjoy your very expensive pile of pain. I love it and Stax. Both are fun. But I'm a monster so I would say that...Quote:
Originally Posted by inevitablepnut
The issue for other cards is twofold:Quote:
Originally Posted by Lormador
First is that Split Second is just too fucking strong. Grip is top of the food chain for what it does and it would take a very special card to knock it off it's pedestal.
Secondly, Grip answers the issues we have. Beast within hits more targets sure, but what targets are we trying to deal with we otherwise can't? The two items that come to mind are Prelate and TNN, outside of that we can hate on just about everything. Direct damage kills most creatures and Walkers, Maze handles the ones we can't kill, Wasteland deals with mana and Tabernacle plays clean up if shit gets out of hand.
This leaves us with weaknesses to spells and to Artifacts and Enchantments. So Grip covers one wing of that while Sphere covers the other. I just don't know what I would seek to replace them with unless something is printed to sure up those weaknesses another way. Like a land you can sacrifice to kill a target. Even then I would need Moon hate.
Funny you say that i'm swagging my deck out with foils and alters! XDQuote:
Originally Posted by Dice_Box
Like DB says, this hits a lot of targets that Grip misses, but none of them are big problems for us. Also if we cast BW we need to answer the token too. If you want more versatile removal splash black for AD.Quote:
Originally Posted by procobrito
Wasn't Ensnaring Bridge used as an oldschool anti-Sneak & Show card? It will make them dig for an Echoing Truth unless they're Omni-Tell, and I can't help but feel like there is no way Lands can have a positive Omni-Tell matchup.Quote:
Originally Posted by Jsang
Lands can't have a +ve match against any S&T archetype I believe. Even Bridge isn't the best for us (vs Sneaky Show) because once it hits we have to GQ lock them or PF them to death before they can answer it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Arschmann
Sorcerous Spyglass might be a good card in the match. Mirage Mirror might even prove to be worth running in the board. But we are never going to be favoured here.
Anybody have much experience with Warping Wail? The card looks good but doesn't get talked about much.
I tried Wail in a couple of iterations of the deck, eventually passing the card over. The two useful modes of Wail put it in a strange position, it's an extra way to kill DRS (secondarily) and a counterspell (primarily) against Show and Tell and Infernal Tutor. I passed on it because I had more effective ways to kill DRS or play around it (obviating the secondary purpose) and because the mana cost of the counterspell mode is pretty restrictive when the rest of the game plan consists in Spheres and (for me) Ports.
I had to choose between Porting and holding up Wail enough times that I just didn't see the point any more, and at no time did I draw the Wail and not wish it was (another) Sphere. Jamming a bunch of Spheres and Porting them (then copying Port with Stage, etc) seems much better to me than trying to delay them with a counterspell and punch through with a 20/20 before they recover.
Wail has more legs in a GQ build, but that's just where I'd expect DRS hate to be most refined and efficient (since GQ relies to a greater extent on the GY).
Sorry that I'm going to ask lots of newbie questions, still extremely new to the deck.
I've seen quite a few 3 Depths lists and 4 Depths lists. Why would you cut this card and go down to 3?
Hello new to this forum and deck and just have a question. Could someone more experienced explain the Glacial Chasm lock please?
It's a matter of preference, really. Especially when you're more of a control-player, you could go down to three.Quote:
Originally Posted by JPoJohnson
Hi there, welcome! It's really quiet simple, but you'll need some lands (obviously a Chasm, but don't forget Thespian's Stage):Quote:
Originally Posted by manadrain
1. Play Chasm,
2. During upkeep, copy Chasm with Stage. Then sac the original Chasm. This way you'll have a closed Chasm-loop
Now you can do a couple of things:
3. Return your Chasm with Loam, or play a second Stage.
4. During your upkeep repeat (2), or
5. Sac your Stage (if you can't pay the upkeep. Otherwise wait), and play the original Chasm.
The other option is, against a deck like Elves that don't have Land removal and must attack you set up the lock with an Exploration. That way you can always play two lands a turn and the lock becomes Land nutrual to keep up. Then when you find a Stage, you can copy the Chasm every second turn to keep the lock active and keep making land drops.
Also, this is another situation where cycling lands rock. Since you need to keep Loam active. Always play with a bicycle handy kids!
I personally like to play with 4 to increase the chances of "nut" hands and fast combo wins. But people will cut one out because the land does not do much by itself. It is only good with Thespian's Stage, and it can actually be a liability when you face an opponent who has Thespian's Stage.Quote:
Originally Posted by JPoJohnson
Without Thespian's Stage, Dark Depths just helps continue the synergy of the deck with Mox Diamond, Molten Vortex, Tireless Tracker, etc. Which leads me to say that if you play with only 3 Dark Depths you should be subbing in another land, not a spell.
In addition to what's been said, don't be affraid to occassionally pay the upkeep. If you have no Stage and no Exploration, you can stay land-neutral by paying 2 life every 2nd turn all the while dredging. Even with Exploration, you might pay the life because you want the mana for something besides Loaming that turn (such as killing a DRS), or just to get some land drops (Ports and Wastelands come to mind).Quote:
Originally Posted by manadrain
There is always one mono-red deck and a u/r deck (price of progress) in the room at the LGS.
If I can't combo early, my only out is a chasm lock with thespian stages and an exploration, so...
I began to sideboard a zuran orb. The zuran orb allows you to sac the glacial chasm at upkeep while triggers are on the stack (gain 2 life).
The life gain means you can pay the upkeep triggers every other turn while looking for the card you need.
The orb is another piece that allows you to stabilize but it is not a regular R/G combo lands side board card.
You can gain so much life that you can make the token, drop the shield and send Momma Lage in for the win.
Incidentally, it can be sided in against a wasteland heavy deck if you have nothing else to board in and maybe a tendrils deck to mess up their math for storm.
One opponent just simply forgot I had the orb in play and dumped his whole hand and fireblasted me, sacc'ing all his lands...
Thanks for the reply.Quote:
Originally Posted by Lormador
I'm surprised that you never drew it without wishing it was a Sphere, because a Sphere means they need to draw one more mana source which is easier than replacing a Show & Tell. Of course Wail does nothing vs Sneak Attack, but Spheres are much better.
I can see being torn between Porting vs leaving mana open though. Ports are great with Spheres, so the more Ports you have ojt the more you'd prefer a Sphere to a Wail.
I guess if I do try Wail I will do it on a day that I feel like running more GQs instead of Ports.
With all the lists running at least 2x Tireless Tracker in the board, I've been wanting to try it out, however I'm really not sure what you want them in against in Legacy. In Modern, I understand you want them against Midrange decks, but that archetype doesn't really exist in Legacy in the same way it does in Modern (mostly BUG with fliers rather than a more controlling BGx deck with more removal and less evasive creatures). So what exactly would I board these in against?