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Agreed. I've moved away from U/B a while ago. It is relevant in a heavy green meta, but there are just SO FEW decks that pack green that it could be relevant against. In saying that I know that perish does very little against VV. They are too resilient and recover too well from one. I for one have not played too many zoo decks in recent days and the ones I do play side out their green creatures game 2. Usually bringing in more removal and REBs.
Did anyone see the list from the Barcelona tourney it was mono blue folk with stifle and dreadnought it looks interesting and was thinking about testing it out, it also ran kira and with a nought on the field with kira its pretty much gg
Which also greatly reduces the synergy of your merfolk. Perhaps you should run firespout as well? :PQuote:
Originally Posted by militiaman89
You need two stifles for a dreadnaught if you have Kira in play. Seems bad.Quote:
Originally Posted by militiaman89
Well, no. Stifle targets the triggered ability, not the creature.Quote:
Originally Posted by Scatterbrain
The idea has some potential if you're playing Stifle anyway. If Stifle isn't useful by itself, not so much.
How does your sideboard look like? Is it directed to anything or is your sideboard for the current metagame?Quote:
Originally Posted by Purgatory
Ah, forgot that. Seems like a resonable plan in the current meta.Quote:
Originally Posted by chysn
Where is the list with the dreadnaughts posted?
http://www.eternal-central.com/?p=858 here is the list
I generally test a lot of different sideboards, and I usually change cards depending on what I'm expecting (of course, I bring a different sideboard when I'm going to a local tourney with a known metagame rather than a big tourney with an unknown metagame).Quote:
Originally Posted by (nameless one)
The last time, it was something like this, IIRC:
2 Blue Elemental Blast
1 Hydroblast
3 Spell Pierce
1 Hibernation
3 Submerge
2 Tormod's Crypt
1 Relic of Progenitus
2 Pithing Needle
With 4 Standstill, 2 Jitte, 2 Sovereign maindeck.
Hey guys, I'm wondering what a good list for a generic meta would be. I saw Finn's build on the first page, but I don't know how up to date that is, or how effective in a general meta. Furthermore, I was wondering what the concensus was on SB cards for the SnT MU. Some have suggested Waterfront Bouncer, I've considered Aether Spellbomb, but were there any cards that blew that MU wide open? Also, getting Echoing Truth may be...problematic, so would the inclusion of two copies of Spell Pierce make up the difference?
Hi,
I'm rather new to merfoks and I was thinking that you guys could give some hint/tips/tricks.
I'm planning on playing mono U. And after some research and puzzling I came up with this list a while ago.
list:
artifact:
4 aether vial
creatures:
4 cursecatcher
4 silvergill adept
4 lord of atlantis
4 merrow reyereej
3 Coralhelm commander
2 merfolk sovereign
2 Kira
1 Wake trasher
enchantment:
4 standstill
instant:
4 daze
4 FoW
land:
4 mutavault
4 wasteland
12 island
//sb
3 spell pierce
2 echoing truth
2 relic
2 crypt
3 Back to basics
3 Mind harness
Now I could very much use tips on sb and actually on the entire list in general. The thing I'm have my biggest doubts of seems to be echoing truth. Since I don't know people to playtest against :( I don't know if it will actually do some good.
I've also heard about lists that actually cut wasteland to be more explosive (or somthing like that xD). Now should I do that? Would cernainly save me some money :D.
looking forward for some decent criticme :)
grtzz,
Hi there!, I'm rather new to fish myself and through my playtesting I've found Kira, Wake Thrasher & Standstill to sometimes fall out of my favour. These are all subjective, maybe you'll do better with them than I haveQuote:
Originally Posted by Travolter
I find myself rather wanting to play other cards, maybe another lord instead of Kira. Having added defense from K doesn't seem to do it for me although I can picture the scenario, I haven't found myself in a situation where I couldn't counter anything & I want to believe I can get my fishes up to a point strong enough to block when need be. Come to think of it I don't really block too much.. anyways
I think Wake Thrasher by itself to be pretty meh. Sure it can get huge every turn but a 1/1 critter stops it, no trample too.
Standstills are in my SB only to be determined if opponent is able to deal with it round 2. These days its all Vials here and there, sometimes I pitch it to FoW too when it becomes useless.
I would consider increasing Sovereign in your list to 4 because it makes other big fish you've grown unblockable and it just seems to gel more than having K or Thrashers in play. You could try the Sovereign > Thrasher beat
I've tried the new Spell Piece too. However, I'm rather sold on Snares, I run 3 copies max in my MB. Personal preference I suppose..Echoing Truth has worked wonders for me, there is ALWAYS some few cards in play that could use a bounce disrupting opponent's tempo, in the case you've run out of counters and meet a Wrath, you could always bounce your own fishes.
I haven't tried B2B yet but I wouldn't count on it to slow your opponent down too much. Mind Harness is excellent, stealing a fattie your opponent thinks you won't have a chance at stopping hasn't been so fun. Do consider Psionic Blast as well, it's sometimes a nice surprise finisher (usually 2 copies MB). Cutting Wastelands and Mutavault down to 3 each didn't feel too much of a difference when I tried it, I've seen some lists run a single Mishra's Factory too, seems odd, wouldn't know how that would synergize exactly, maybe more card interaction.
Hope your deck works out!
Probably want to go +1 Coralhelm, he's a lord pump and he has flying which is very relevent, where as the other folk need each other he ends games himself.Quote:
Originally Posted by Travolter
Factory gives pumps to your Mutavaults, basically only thing they are good as, other than extra manland.
So Mutavault is a Merfolk & Assembly Worker who gets bonuses from either pumps? Say Mutavault is a 3/3 Merfolk (with bonus from LoA), will I still be able to give it a +1/+1 from Mishra's Factory making it a 4/4 because it's also an Assembly Worker?Quote:
Originally Posted by Parax
Of course, Mutavault has all creature types. It also gets pumped by your opponents' Goblin Kings.
By the way, I agree with Pander Alexander. Coralhelm Commander is the second best creature in the deck. You should really play a full set of them. Without Coralhelm Commander the deck wouldn't be even close to its actual power.
Alright I'll add an extra coralhelm commander. I'm thinking playing only 3 standstills. Should I do that? That way I have already cut something.
And how about wasrteland? As i've sais before i've heard off lists playing no wastelands. Because if it is possible to play without them it would be very nice for my budget.
You'll definitely need the Wastelands, you should invest in them if you're playing Legacy, it's very good land disruption and even more essential when playing fishQuote:
Originally Posted by Travolter
Yeah that's what I was thinking, but as said before: i've heard about lists cutting them. And I was thinking that if it is possible to play a decent list without wastelands it would be very nice to at the least get started already.Quote:
Originally Posted by ryl417
You need wasteland, makes your daze/cursecatcher better
Only way you COULD (not saying you should) play without wastelands would be if you played with stifle. And then you actually slow the deck down because you can't mana denial and vial on turn one anymore.
Hi there,
I Just want to show you my decklist I played on our weekly Legacy-Tournament here in germany.
There where 39 Player today and I got 4-2 and was ranked 12th (cause of my bad opponent score – I could have been 6th… ;) )
The Sideboard is quite random cause I threw the Dreadnoughts in my deck 2 mins before the tournament started so I had to improvise ;)
Maindeck:
3x Mutavault
4x Wasteland
13x Island
1x Wake Trasher
3x Standstill
4x Force of Will
4x Phyrexian Dreadnought
4x Silvergill Adept
4x Daze
4x Coralhelm Commander
4x Stifle
4x Lord of Atlantis
4x Merrow Rejeery
4x Aether Vial
Sideboard:
2x Kira Great Glass Spinner
1x Wake Trasher
1x Llawan, Cephalid Empress
2x Tormods Crypt
2x Reliq of Progenitus
2x Umezawa´s Jitte
3x Hibernation
2x Submerge
Game 1 against Death and Taxes:
Game one he dropped Vial first turn which I countered. Then I layed down Vial for my own and passed. He then Played double Mother of runes. Then I just put a counter on my Vial (had Lord of A. on my hand and Merrow Reejery). I passed and he played a Vial to which I couldn´t respond. That was it. He pulled in Stoneforge Mystic and Serra Avenger and so on. Backupped with the Mothers he just beat me dead…
Gae two was nearly the same. I didn´t draw enough Merfolk and he just killed me.
0-2
0-1 Total
Game 2 against TES:
Game one I just layed down a Vial and passed. He plays Land go. Second turn I casted LoA and passed. Then he stormed a bit and ended with laying down 12 Gobbos. He passed and I played Merrow Rejeery and Vialing in Silvergill Adept. He attacked several turns with his gobbos but I blocked all of his token with my Mefolk. Then I dropped Mutavault and another Lord and that was game.
Game two he got in the combo turn 2 and I hadn´t a stifel…
Game three was nearly the same.
1-2
0-2 Total
Game 3 against NO Survival Elves:
Game one was pretty quick. I didn´t manage to counter his Survival and he just got insane with anger in the graveyard and dozens of elves on the table. Then there came the Ezuri and with 4 overuns I was dead ;)
Game 2 I boarded in 3 Hibernation and 2 Submerge. I had two Hibernations and 1 Submerge in my opening hand. I played some Merfolka and he got insane with his Survival and his Elves. EOT i just pulled in one Hibernation and send his board back to his hand. I then attacked with some Merfolkbacked up with some Lords. Next Turn was the same play: he layed down all his elves and i Hibernated them. That was it for game two.
Game three was quite the same. He managed to lay dow Progenitus and I take the beatings. Then draw a Hibernation and send back his whole board. I managed to beat him dead.
2-1
1-2 Total
Game 4 against a homebrewn Vial-Zombie Deck:
Game one I began and layed down a land. He played a Carophage and passed. I layed down a land – Dreadnought – Stifle – Win. he didn´t manage to get rid of it and the Dreadnouht killed him.
Game 2 I mulliganed to five and Kept a hand with Stifle, Dreadnought, Vial but no Land… I didn´t draw one in five turns and that was it.
Game three I just killed him with some Merfolk.
2-1
2-2 Total
Game 5 against Stax:
First game I managed to lay down a Dreadnought turn 2 and he made the game.
Game two he managed to lay down Chalice on 1 and Trinisphere. That locked me down and he could kill me with his Mutavaults and his Factorys.
Game three I landed an early Dreadnought. I was able to attack once and he goes to 6 (had a Mutavalt online) he then Powder Kegged my Dreadnought and I beat him with the Vault – he goes to 4. He layed down Trinisphere and I managed to attack with my Mutavault again setting him to two. He wasted my Mutavault and we both got stock on two manas. Due to the Trinisphere no one could play something for several turns. It was just Draw – No Land – Discard go. He draw an Ancient Tomb and played it being a two life it was not such a lucky draw for him ;) I managed to draw an Island, played Merrow Rejeery and this was it.
2-1
3-2 Total
Game 6 was against Fish:
First game I had a quick start with Vial and some Merfolk. Casue he had Undergound Seas in play and I had an LoA it was a quick game.
Game 2 I layed down Dreadnought turn two and he just laughed – he didn´t thought of this move ;) He sworded my Dreadnought setting me to 32 life. He then played Meddling mage on LoA and Meddling Mage on Force of Will. I just layed down a Silvergill Adept and a turn later a Merrow Rejeery. He layed down Dark Confidant. I then layed down a Coralhelm Commander and started to level him. I managed to beath him down with the Commander to I thing 10 Life or so. I loved my next move: Coralhelm Commander at lvl 5, 2 Mutavaults, 1 Merrow Rejeery and 1 Silvergill adept. I attacked with the Commander and then hardcasted Dreadnought sacking in 2 Mutavaults, the Rejeery and the Adept. Next turn attack for 16 – Game.
2-0
4-2 Total
Dreadnought was the Matchwinner today. It´s just not expected. ;) Do you have andy ideas how to make the Maindeck better?
Sorry for my bad english – it´s been a while since I last wrote down english text :)
Bye for now
Chezchris
The Dreadnought is definitely a random win I love. ^^Quote:
Originally Posted by chezchris
Overally the deck seems solid to me. The only suggestion I really have is that Wake Thrasher. Honestly, imo he's a sub-par creature not deserving of deck space. Sure, he's great on the attack, but in the absense of multiple Lords he becomes a chump blocker at best. He also lacks trample or evasion, so he isn't exactly difficult for an opponent to deal with. And even with your 7 cantrips, as a 1-of it's very doubtful you'll draw him, nor can I think of any instance where you would wish you had him on hand.
My only suggestion is:
-1 Wake Thrasher
+1 Standstill
Something I've been looking at building is a Ur variant of Merfolk. Before I continue, let me just say that I had obtained some Volcanics for Sneaky Show, but have since then dismantled said deck. I already have a Mono-U build of Merfolk (or I did before I took it a apart) so I'm looking at a Red splash for Merfolk. It's just for fun to see how it works, I fully expect it to be the worst splash of the other four colors available.
4 Scalding Tarns
2 Misty Rainforest
4 Volcanic Island
4 Wasteland
4 Mutavaults
3 Island
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Standstill
3 Spell Snare
4 Aether Vial
4 Lord of Atlantis
4 Merrow Reejery
4 Coralhelm Commander
4 Silvergill Adept
4 Taurean Mauler
I always have problems finding cards to subtract from decks such as Merfolk because so many cards are necessarily to the overall power of the deck. I also had a great deal of fun trying to find ANY Ur Merfolk deck on the various search engines (I found none ><').
I opted for Snare over Pierce aas my current meta is more aggro-oriented right now (Aggro Loam, VengSurvival, Merfolk, with random Storm/Land/Enchantress) so I felt the Snare would overall be more useful to my meta.
You'll also note that I switched out Cursecatcher for Mauler. I'm reluctant to remove a 1-drop from the deck, however I wanted to see how Mauler faired. A 3-drop (which ultimately could slow me down in comparison to other aggro) however he benefits from the Lords and gets bigger on his own which is beneficial against decks like Loam/Land/Enchantress who rely on casting multiple spells a turn.
As it stands the R Splash will be more prominant in my SB. I'm considering Moon effects and perhaps Artifact hate/REB. Anyway, let me know your thoughts of suggestions.
Again, I'm building this for the fun of it. I fully acknowledge there is a 99.9% chance it is/will be weaker than the other color splashes.
Forlorn Egoist
i know he aint a merfolk, but i think the main thing that merfolk lacks is removal, and Lavamancer will give you some game against the more aggro decks.
How has the mauler been working out for you? I suspect he'll really shine mid-game?Quote:
Originally Posted by ForlornEgoist
Thanks for your Reply. In my normal List I play 2 Waketrashers and Vialed in EOT Turn it becomes really scary for my opponents. I left him in cause I cut out 5 other Merfolk (4 Cursecatcher and 1 Waketrasher) to have some more Merfolk in Maindeck.Quote:
Originally Posted by ForlornEgoist
But for the next week Legacy Tournament i´ll maybe test it without the Waketrasher and with +1 Standstill :)
Bye for now
Hey everyone,
I have a question. How do we beat survival decks (vengevine, loy
Hey everyone,
I have a question. How do we beat survival decks (vengevine, loyal retainers/Iona package, and necrotic ooze)? It seems to me that fish has a terrible matchup vs. all three versions of survival. Am I wrong? If I am, please enlighten me :)
I feel the only way to stand a chance vs. survival is to have the correct sideboard. But what is the correct sideboard that doesn't overcommit to beating just survival as to avoid being blown out by a deck like affinity (which imo pre-board is a terrible matchup for us).
Here is the decklist I am currently playing, please critique and give any advice. Thanks!
Maindeck:
4X LoA
4x Silvergill Adept
4x Merrow Reejery
4x Corralhelm Commander
3x Cursecatcher
4x FoW
4x Daze
2x Spell Pierce
3x Swords to Plowshares
4x Standstill
4x Aether Vial
3x Island
3x Tundra
1x Plains (really want to play 4x tundra, but getting shut out of white would suck)
4x Flooded Strand
1x Polluted Delta
1x Misty Rainforest
4x Wasteland
3x Mutavault (I would up this to 4 if I decided to run 4 tundras, and no plains)
Sideboard:
2x Absolute Law (for goblins and zoo matchups)
2x Umezawa's Jitte (for the mirror and zoo, maybe goblins)
2x Relic of Progenitus (gy hate)
1x Tormod's Crypt (gy hate)
2x Hibernation (any deck packing green, mainly zoo and survival)
2x Submerge (same)
2x Path to Exile
2x Null Rod (Affinity)
I am having a hard time figuring out the sideboard for a meta where almost everyone is gonna play Survival. At the next big tourney I am going to attend, I feel there will be mostly survival, affinity (bc its cheap and everyone seems convinced that mox opal and memnite can bring this deck to tier 1), and also combo decks such as TES and ANT (bc combo decks have favorable matchups vs. survival).
I cut Llawan who is awesome in the mirror bc I am not anticipating many people playing fish. Other cards I want to fit into the sideboard are the following: 1 more null rod, 1 more STP, 2 more PTE, 1 more absolute law, 1 more tormod's crypt, 3-4 pithing needles, 2 meddling mages, 1 more hibernation, 1 more submerge. I feel I am all over the place with my sideboard. Please HELP!! Thanks :)
And I want to put seal of cleansings in my sideboard.... they should allow 25 card sideboards for legacy =/
I have never been a fan of 2 of's in a sb unless they compliment cards in your main. Like your 9/10 counterspell etc. 2 of's are just plain bad, you want to draw your sb cards
I don't think you can run pathe to exile, it is really bad in Merfolk. You can't give them a land and it beats your own strategy of wasteland/daze/ cursecatcher package.
I would run
3x absolute law.. (though I have tested it and it really isn't that great) Kira is better in all matchups with red
3x hibernation (submerge is my fav card in magic, but isn't good right now with survival running ramped) If survival gets banned my sb is 4 submerge
3-4x graveyard hate (right now I run 3 crypt, but yard hate isn't that great right now with survival)
3 null rod (if you're really that worried about affinity, but you have swords and it turns off your vials)
3 disenchant (seems better than null rod and can be used against survival. Instant speed and doesn't get owned by pridemage)
I think echoing truth seems really good right now, esp vs affinity and vengevines. Good vs everything
3 crypt
3 hibernation
3 echoing truth/disenchant. Echoing truth seems better
3 absolute law/blue blast
2 jitte/needle
Kind of a random post, but my sb would look something like that. and actually mono blue seems to be the best right now
Your not running Null Rod.Quote:
Originally Posted by SlopeeJ
Which is true, but no one plays affinity. But you're right I still wouldn't run null rodQuote:
Your not running Null Rod.
3 null rod (if you're really that worried about affinity, but you have swords and it turns off your vials)
3 disenchant (seems better than null rod and can be used against survival. Instant speed and doesn't get owned by pridemage)
So are you saying we just concede to survival and hope it gets banned? The current mono blue build stands no chance vs. Survival, and has a terrible matchup vs. Zoo, goblins, and affinity (you may not think it is played, but ppl are trying to make it work with the new scars cards). So we just lose to 50 to 75% of the meta? Fish, be it mono or splashing, only has a good mu vs. Countertop variants and combo decks atm.
We need to adapt to the current meta. I mean fish is a meta deck, and right now the meta owns fish. If we don't innovate, fish will be relegated to tier 1.x status, and I would hate to see this happen bc I love playing the deck.
I don't know if I agree with this 100%.... Affinity, even with new scars cards, still sucks. If it's a heavy meta presence then by all means run null Rod in your board. It might shut off Vial but if they can't do anything with their cards you have all the time in the world to slow roll your creatures out the old fashioned way.Quote:
Originally Posted by BWEEEZY
Everyone also needs to stop blanketing "survival" as 1 deck. It's not. The 3 major flavors right now are UG Madness/Survival, GW Survival, and GBx Ooze. Now all 3 machups are winnable, though i feel the second two are more ofa struggle. UG has little in the way of counter disruption and without survival their creatures aren't that good, you can easily out counter them with a little main/board adapting as well as having needles/hibernation for stopping/resetting survival. Hibernation is probably a must against GW as they have redundancy (fauna shaman) and bigger threats.. you have Kira against their swords and can hopefully stop Iona, so as long as you are able to limit them it can be winnable, though not favorable. I have yet to play against the Ooze list but I've got a feeling it plays similarly to GW... Try to deny their tutors, beat fast as possible, hold a counter for the Ooze... again.. Winnable but not favorable. UG I have yet to really have a problem with in testing, but that's my anecdotal experience.
Zoo is entirely up to your build. I run a 12 Lord build w/o standstill, with maindeck Kiras, and the only problems I've ever had against Zoo was getting mana screwed. Hard to take that aspect out of the game, shit happens. I can just say that Kira dominates in this matchup, and having maindeck bounce (E.truth) helps shore up the game 1 til you can reach game 2 for your Submerges/Mind harness/etc. Don't be afraid to get tricksy. I won a game just on Sunday against Zoo because on his turn 2 I submerged his Nacatl in response to cracking a fetch.
Goblins I have no words for. The matchup sucks if the goblin player knows whats up. This i'll grant you.
With minor tweaks i don't think this deck is that badly poised in the metagame. You are right, adapting is required to keepa metagame deck alive, but I don't think it's position as having bad matchups in 50-75% of the meta is anywhere near accurate.
Fish is only tier 1 when the meta is full of blue control and combo. As dominating as Survival is right now I still find it funny that Fish players are always complaining whenever the metagame tilts away from blue control and combo match ups.Quote:
Originally Posted by BWEEEZY
Merfolk struggles against the non_blue versions of Survival but it struggles against anything non_blue anyway. The UG version is actully a fairly even match up, which can be tilted your way by running a few cards: Spell Pierce, Spell Snare Faerie Macabre, Hibernation.
MonoBlue is actually better because you can extra Lords that allows you to race more consistently. Echoing Truth is better then Swords here as the match often comes down to which player can go off on turn four. Truth lets you bounce their Vengevines the turn they go lethal and opens up the counter alpha strike.
Alternativley, you can splash black for Extirpate, Perish, and Plague in the board.
Oh, if you want dedicated affinity hate try Energy Flux or Kataki if you insist on splshing white.
How does adding 3 swords help at all vs survival ? You need 4 and absolute law does nothing vs zoo and still doesn't let you block pile driver vs goblins. Believe me no has played more white Merfolk and right now it just doesn't really help when you have 4 vengevines coming at you turn 3. Same goes for zoo, it comes down to getting kira early to protect your creatures not having swords for one of their creatures. i disagree that mono blue stands no chance vs survival, I think it has the best chance. You get to run all the lords and hope to race, but still if they resolve a turn 2 survival you lose. So yes you just concede and hope it gets banned because it is broken. But with your sb of 3 hibernation etc you have a chance vs survival. You just can't let them resolve survival. Anyone one who says survival isn't tier 1 is wrong.Quote:
Originally Posted by BWEEEZY
I said if you have lots of affinity in your meta then you should run at least 3 cards (my meta doesn't have affinity cause it sucks) A card like echoing truth can be brought in vs almost every deck. Null rod is only good vs 1 deck and that is affinity, at least disenchant can be used in multiple matchups. Energy flux allows you to stay mono blue and beats affinity as well
3 fairie macabre
3 hibernation
3 eching truth
3 energy flux/disenchant
3 pithing needle/blue blast
If you side out daze, cursecatcher that gives you 7 cards to bring in vs Survival
same vs affinity, seems pretty good to me
Currently, I am not worried about zoo. No one should play zoo right now bc survival owns zoo moreso than any other deck. So the consensus is mono blue is the best vs. Survival? And I don't really get why affinity is not played more esp since it seems no one other than me is considering sb hate for affinity. Without sb hate, affinity is a great deck. Its biggest weakness is that one card can shut down the whole deck.
More important question... should I play a new deck unless survival gets banned tomorrow?
If survival gets banned, it will be announced Dec. 20th and then gone on January 1st. Not tomorrow.Quote:
Originally Posted by BWEEEZY
Also, Affinity is an extremely weak strategy. Free 2/2's and 1/1s are only 2/2s and 1/1s without Cranial Plating, and ravager is buns without the pre-m10 damage rule. I don't fear the deck at all. You run wasteland which can completely shut them out of colors if they don't have a drum or opal.... the deck is just out aggroed
Affinity isn't played in my meta, that is the reason I don't have sb for it. If your meta has lots of affinity then I would run some sb hate, but right now I think the main deck along with some echoing truths are good enough to fight the random affinity decks I might play. As Sims said, if you stop cranial plating the deck isn't that strong. Echoing truth bounces everything they have.Quote:
Originally Posted by BWEEEZY
I think mono blue is best vs survival for the same reason submerge is not good right now. They resolve a survival and you have 4 vengevines coming at you, the 1 submerge or swords in your hand isn't really going to help much imo.
If survival doesn't get banned, you either play survival or a combo deck. Survival is superior to all other decks with creatures/aggro.Quote:
More important question... should I play a new deck unless survival gets banned tomorrow?