IGG + extirpate to their counters in resp is a solutions?Quote:
Originally Posted by Dia_Bot
Printable View
IGG + extirpate to their counters in resp is a solutions?Quote:
Originally Posted by Dia_Bot
Seems a little extreme. Chant/discard is two different styles of play. Discard tends to be a little faster and more consistent (you can duress them the turn before and then go off the next turn whereas you need to chant the same turn you go off) but more susceptibal to being shut down (they can hide a force with top).Quote:
Originally Posted by GoldenCid
Just play 3 chant 3 duress or something...
that's what I like the most, if you need chant you get it..
And sideboard extra discard/chant :P
In the Goblin thread we are discussing what to name with Cabal Therapy vs ANT. You're the experts, what should we say?
http://images1.wikia.nocookie.net/yu...gABPF-JP-R.jpgQuote:
Originally Posted by Nelis
Pandaborg. It has att 1700, def 1400 so it kills in one turn, no shit.
Ok, so assuming it is blind Therapy, Iď go for Brainstorm, the next one (hope you have a spare critter...) I'd take anything dangerous. If there are two or more BS in yard, I'd name Mystical/LED.
:really:
So from reading these forums and some personal testing, it seems like reanimator is a terrible matchup for ANT (here I'm referring to the version with DDay and burning wishes and no chant effects). It seems like every card in their deck is either land, search, or something that directly interfere's with your plan, be it discard, permission, or reanimation parts -> iona(black). This is esp bad with the versions of reanimator packing discard in the mainboard.
Given that it's probably impossible to do well with this deck at a large tournament without having a solid gameplan against reanimator, I'd be curious to hear what you guys have tried to this end.
Currently I'm running in the board as reanimator-hate:
1x Eye of Nowhere (wishable iona-removal)
1x Wipe Away (for g2/g3)
I played quite a lot vs reanimator with NLS and never thought the matchup was all that horrible.Quote:
So from reading these forums and some personal testing, it seems like reanimator is a terrible matchup for ANT (here I'm referring to the version with DDay and burning wishes and no chant effects). It seems like every card in their deck is either land, search, or something that directly interfere's with your plan, be it discard, permission, or reanimation parts -> iona(black). This is esp bad with the versions of reanimator packing discard in the mainboard.
Given that it's probably impossible to do well with this deck at a large tournament without having a solid gameplan against reanimator, I'd be curious to hear what you guys have tried to this end.
Currently I'm running in the board as reanimator-hate:
1x Eye of Nowhere (wishable iona-removal)
1x Wipe Away (for g2/g3)
Pre-side it's hard but if you can hide the fact you're playing combo the reanimator player will often reanimate something else then Iona or worst case put her on blue (In which case it should still be doable to win). Admittedly, if they playing discard maindeck it's harder.
Pre side I would say a well informed opponent will probably be able to make this matchup quite in his favor.
After side with 3 bounce spells and 8 discard effect your matchup should be atleast 50-50.
If you have a lot of trouble playing vs reanimator you could also include telemin performance or extirpate in your sideboard. Personally I'm not a big fan of T.performance because it's quite narrow and it's blue (reanimator player will play iona on blue most of the time G2). Nonetheless It could improve G1 against them.
Extirpate is imo one of the best cards to side in vs reanimator (aside from bounce spells ofc). Responding on reanimate with mystical and switching top to remove iona's is a great way to win this MU.
At the moment my sideboarding plan vs reanimator is +1 Thoughtseize + 1 eye of nowhere + 1 echoing truth + 1 chain of vapor. In an reanimator heavy environment all I would do is add 1 extirpate to this plan.
Here another question from Goblins to ANT experts:
We had a discussion about combo-hate. We took the following cards into consideration:
Cabal Therapy/Thoughtseize alongside with:
Thorn of Amethyst
Pyrostatic Pillar
Chalice of the Void
Which one hurts you most?
The oppinion so far was that Thorn slows you down but doesnt defeat you compleatly since you still have enough time to search for your Bounce.
Pyrostatic Pillar doesnt slow you a bit but gives you at least 4 damage while trying to remove it.
Chalice is flexible. It can be set on 0 or on 1, but either way you are still able to go off (even without bounce).
Any suggestions? You could post that in the Goblin thread btw.
Thanks!
Thorn is the best hate piece you have available. We can win through both Chalice and Pillar, but winning through Thorn, if it comes with a reasonable clock, is quite difficult. An early Thorn also hinders our cantripping (Chalice does too though). However, even with Thorn, against good ANT players, you're not going to get a positive matchup post-board. If you have other options to board against other decks, I'd consider not running any combo hate at all.Quote:
Originally Posted by GoboLord
Concerning the Reanimator matchup, I run 3 Doomsday, 1 Shelldock Isle and 1 Emrakul sideboard, and my postboard matchup is favorable. Their deck can't really beat an early Doomsday, and any creature after that is irrelevant.
I'd gladly test that a few times against you.
I've no experience with that blowing up in my face while playing reanimate, but a resolved doomsday into that is definately game against reanimate. A very few lists run an edict effect.
Also a good ANT player will be able to win both post-board games against reanimate even though they are tricky, bounce and slaughter pact combined with a simple chant does everything you want. as long as they don't have an extract or sadistic up theirs ( which will be a dead card against NLS, since they can either tendrils or emrakul) they'll be fine.
Hmm, that's a 5 card package for the sideboard, only one of which is used in traditional sideboards...Quote:
Originally Posted by Bahamuth
what'd you have to take out? Or, perhaps more relevantly, what's your current sideboard running that package?
@gobolord: The absolute best hate you can have is Null Rod. Well, when running the terrible version with no IGG and 2 Tendrils, Chalice @0 really hurts them. But for EVERYTHING, play Null Rod. With DD, Chalice is whatever, you can play around it. There is no playing around Null Rod ... ever (unless Goblins gives us about 4-7 turns to setup threshed Cabal Rituals + IT assuming we can't find answers for it).
Thorn is also good, but if I had the choice of having Thorn/Sphere in play or Null Rod, I would MUCH rather see the Thorn/Sphere since it allows me to use Top to find an answer and doesn't shut off my artifact mana if I stall on 2 lands or something early on. Although, I will tell you one thing, out of all the hate cards I want to see played, I HOPE to see Mindbreak Trap the most. The card is so worthless against combo its ridiculous. It may steal A game ... but it sucks against anyone who knows what they are doing and usually you mull to 5-6 trying to find it and keep shitty hands.
In short, Null Rod is THE BEST way to stall combo out for the longest period of time because it MUST be answered if your deck can only win VIA storm.
Null rod is good once it hit play, but thats the problem. ANT can go off before turn 2, can hit it with discard, or can just go off without worrying about it. Chalice for 0 hits all of the same cards except top, and honestly, if your spending turns spinning top, I'm dealing plenty of damage to your face with gobbos. Plus, null rod shuts off one of our best cards, vial. Vial allows us to double our goblin pumping, allowing us to kill ANT twice as fast. Null Rod also requires two lands in hand, and that we spend our 2nd turn playing it. I'd much rather be dropping piledrivers or winstigators turn 2. Chalice for 0 causes no tempo loss, and allows you to use wastelands that turn. Last but not least, drawing a second null rod isn't going to put you in a significantly better position. Drawing a 2nd or 3rd chalice is never going to be dead. So from an ANT perspecitive, I really don't like chalice. It delays me by at least 2-3 turns, and is quite a pain. As a goblins player, it fits with the strategy of the deck better than any other card. Just my 0.02Quote:
Originally Posted by Pulp_Fiction
double trouble
Null Rod is a pain, and will cause ANT to kill it self more often than not.
Chalice is good and all, it's even good against Zoo. But it's easily played around with Doosmday or regular ANT with the right hand and some luck on flipping Dark Rituals.
The problem with goblins is that it is actually a really slow deck from ANT perspectice. If we were to make and average damage dealt per turn by goblins, we would have turn 1/2/3 close to 0/1/3 damage and them jumping to 10 on turn 4 or something. Cards that slow ANT a bit will be good if you hit fast hands, so I think cards that disrupt completely some aspect of your opponents game are better.
How is Null Rod any different from Chalice here? They have the exact same effect (minus the fact that chalice will actually counter rather than letting them stay in play) and that is shutting off 0 casting cost artifacts. The only benefit null rod offers you in this matchup is shutting off top. Personally, i'm not gonna spend an extra two mana to shut off one card (that can then be shut off next turn with a chalice @1) only to lose vial, one of the best cards in the deck.Quote:
Originally Posted by alderon666
What are you referring to here? I'm pretty sure thats what ALL the hate does lol. Even mindbreak trap. Its there to slow you down enough to find discard (not that I recommend it).Quote:
Originally Posted by alderon666
off topic: A local player used RB build of Goblins with maindeck Prospectors and some 5/3 black rogue Goblin that eats three from opponents library. It proved useful - even against Thrash, removing 3/4 of Goyfs... "now kill me with Gooses, lol"
If he plays Burning Wish, he can still go for the SB Tendrils or EtW at least, but it is still better than nothing. And you can play it turn2.
As a goblin player myself, I must say that Earwig Squad is a definite plus in this match-up. The problem comes with running more than one or two. The deck doesn't have enough slots to dedicate to cards like that so those are mostly fetched up with matron or lucked into play from your opening 7. If you don't have a Frogtosser then you're looking at a 3cc Squad instead of the 2cc version. As far as prospector is concerned: is he or will he ever make the cut over vial or lackey in the one slot? Probably not, so we don't run him.Quote:
Originally Posted by Aleksandr
Since we don't run prospector, Squad doesn't hit the table until turn 3-4 on average and that's far too slow vs. ANT. It's not worth destroying our deck's consistency with Prospector to get a Squad on turn 2. He's mostly run against NOPro variants anyway.
Probably one of the better plays would be turn 1 lackey, turn two Port your land, turn three squad. Even so, I've kept that hand and had ANT blow up on me turn 2. :(
I'd still like to say that chalice is great in this match-up because, while they can still doomsday through it, it costs goblins 0 tempo and forces the ANT deck INTO the doomsday path, which increases our active hindrance of their deck plan. I'd rather see a chalice in play when I lose than a Thorn of Amythest in my hand... The same can be said for Null Rod. Null Rod allows permanents to hit the board, and only shuts off SDTop. Chalice @ 0 does almost the exact same thing, minus Top. It still must be dealt with in the same manner and it costs 0 tempo. Null Rod takes our turn 2 threats, and therefore gives the ANT player a turn to react to the card. Chalice does neither of those things.
Qty Name
// Lands
4 Polluted Delta
3 Flooded Strand
3 Underground Sea
1 Island
1 Tropical Island
1 Swamp
1 Tundra
1 Scrubland
//\\
// Spells
1 Ad Nauseam
1 Tendrils of Agony
3 Infernal Tutor
3 Sensei's Divining Top
4 Mystical Tutor
1 Ill-Gotten Gains
3 Chrome Mox
2 Ponder
4 Brainstorm
3 Cabal Ritual
4 Dark Ritual
4 Lion's Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
3 Duress
4 Orim's Chant
1 Wipe Away
//\\
// Sideboard
1 Slaughter Pact
1 Hurkyl's Recall
1 Bayou
1 Sadistic Sacrament
1 Extirpate
3 Xantid Swarm
1 Deathmark
1 Echoing Truth
1 Rebuild
3 Dark Confidant
1 Angel's Grace
Fared very well (ehm... see below) with this list yesterday.
R1, Bert, Herrings
G1 I slowly sculpted my hand against double Cursecatcher, than when I tried to combo out, I had not enough mana due to double Daze and named CCs. Yeah, I could try it faster, but I had no info on his hand... Maybe he had those Dazes since the game started.
G2 I finished him with Ad Nauseam + Angel's Grace after I blindly draw by Top into land that made me play around Daze on AdN.
G3 I lost.
R2/R3, Tom, Tress
I won the G1 pretty easy, lost G2 somehow and was unable to get through hate in G3, so this match was draw
R3/R2, Bye
R4, Martin, Monobrown Stax
G1 I comboed very fast, while G2 I comboed very fast.
Overall I am happy with the deck, but playing Storm.dec for the first time in my life, it is not that easy with DD. I'll try some easier list next time.
Things I have learned about this deck:
Doomsday-decks are incredibly hard. Still unsure if the effort is worth it. Tourney results seem to imply it's not.
Ad Nauseam is too good. I have cut IGG from my deck. Much like Doomsday-versions it can save you when AdN would do nothing, but requires a bit more work. Of course, just running 2 AdN instead of AdN+IGG is just easier and wins a lot of games just by the deck being easier to pilot.
2x Tendrils does nothing. I have one extra in the board though. I have no idea why.
Running 4 Chant + 2 Silence made a guy ask if I ride my car with a helmet on. Have been running 3 Duress + 3 Chant since.
I don't like 4 Duress + 2 Thoughtseize-versions. Don't really know why. Made me feel uncomfortable.
Path to Exile in the board is tech.
Against blue, Xantid Swarm goes in game one, and if I for some reason do not win, they go back out game 3. Opponents have a lot of dead cards and scratched heads.
This deck beats Stax as well as Sphere-boarding tribe decks even though it shouldn't. This still surprises me.
City of Traitors is insane. I used to have problems against decks with fast clocks and Daze/Cursecatcher/Spell Pierce. Not anymore I don't.
I hate CB-decks. Especially those that fetch hatebears with Survival of the Fittest.
It's very important to not loose the first match, because then you play against terrible Sui-decks that wreck you with Dark Ritual+Hymn+Thoughtseize for the rest of the tournament. And Sadistic Sacrament. Nothing hurts your self esteem more.
I have no idea what Dark Confidant is supposed to do. Never did in TPS either.