[DTB] Team America (Aggro/Tempo Thread)

Yeah ... And honestly I never really liked Countertop decks, because they always feel a little inconsistent to me. I hate drawing counterbalance when I don't have a top, even though I know you can pitch it to FOW, etc. It could be at least a good sideboard card though, and if the meta is favorable enough for Countertop maybe even in the maindeck. At least a top and/or a sylvan library could be good though to help with Bob and to make us more consistent.

ANother idea for this deck, while completely ridiculous (this is more of a pet deck idea, not a serious sugestion), is to go all out with thought scour in conjunction with Tombstalker, Delver, and Goyf. THought scour, incidentally, is absurd in combination with TOmbstalker, since its a cantriping dark ritual that can be saved up and doesn't have to be cast on the same turn, and is an instant. SOmething like this would be very fast and disruptive against combo:

4 delver of secrets
4 tarmogoyf
4 tombstalker
4 force of will
3 daze
3 spell pierce
4 dismember
2 thoughtseize
2 inquisition of kozilek
4 brainstorm
4 ponder
4 thought scour
3 wasteland
4 underground sea
2 bayou
1 tropical island
4 polluted delta
4 misty rainforest
1 verdant catacombs

You could have some pretty stupidly explosive draws with all those thought scours, counterspells, hand disruption, tombstalkers, goyfs, and delvers :)

P.S. THis is a slightly serious suggestion - thought scour really is very good with TOmbstalker and it may be good enough to consider warping the deck around this synergy.

The more I play with Thought Scour, the more I like it. I've been playing with it in a RUG shell to support Nimble Mongoose.

In addition to growing/delving creatures Thought Scour has nice synergy with:

• Brainstorm/Ponder
• Delver (don't like what Delver flips, then thought scour it)
• Miracles (opposing player taps their Top or Brainstorms on your turn (when you think they have a Miracle on top), you Thought Scour them in response)
• Enlightened Tutor or any other card that puts a card on top of their library. Thought Scour would also be deadly vs. Doomsday.
• They Brainstorm in response to your discard, it allows you to mill what they hide on top

All pretty common uses of Thought Scour, besides the primary purpose of building the graveyard.

Do you think Tombstalker is a 4 of? Do you think Dismember is a 4 of? Personally, I like Darkblast as a 1-of and it works well with Thought Scour.

I might run -1 Tarmogoyf, -1 Tombstalker, +1 Daze/Spell Pierce, +1 Darkblast

Ghastly Demise is no good with the Tombstalker plan. Snuff Out is about the same as Dismember. I would make sure the sideboard has enough Flusterstorms/Duress so that the creature removal can be fully boarded out against Combo.

Yeah I agree with most of what you said, Water_Wizard.

The reason for 4 tombstalkers is to try to capitalize on the thought scour / tombstalker synergy. You could cut one though. However, I absolutely would not cut a goyf. You would like to run 4 spell pierces, and darkblast can be good too. The 4 dismembers is just because while ghastly demise is the best black removal in this deck, it does't mix with tombstalker. Dismember is painful but its also efficient and good, and you can pay more mana for it as the game goes. However, 3 dismember might be better, if you can think of an actually decent removal spell other than darkblast to take its place. IMO darkblast is too inconsistent but it is a good 5th removal spell. Disfigure might also be good - it is more versatile than darkblast even if it is less crazy. Maybe 3 dismember 1 disfigure? Maybe 2/2, 3/2, or 2/3? That's the main problem with Tombstalker - cutting us off from our best removal spell.

You could do something like this if you play tombstalker:

4 delver of secrets
4 tarmogoyf
3 tombstalker
3-4 force of will
3 daze
3-4 spell pierce
3 dismember
1 disfigure
2 thoughtseize
3 inquisition of kozilek
4 brainstorm
4 ponder
2 thought scour

4 wasteland
4 underground sea
2 bayou
1 tropical island
4 polluted delta
4 misty rainforest
1 verdant catacombs


Or something like this if you don't play tombstalker:

4 delver of secrets
3 nimble mongoose
4 tarmogoyf
4 dark confidant
3 force of will
3 daze
3 spell pierce
2 inquisition of kozilek
2 thoughtseize
3 ghastly demise
1 dismember
4 brainstorm
4 ponder

4 wasteland
4 underground sea
2 tropical island
1 bayou
4 misty rainforest
4 polluted delta
1 verdant catacombs

Overall, I think the second list might end up just being better.

If you don't want to play dark confidant either, you could do something like this:

4 delver of secrets
4 nimble mongoose
4 tarmogoyf
3-4 force of will
3 daze
3-4 spell pierce
2 inquisition of kozilek
2 thoughtseize
3 ghastly demise
1 dismember
4 brainstorm
4 ponder
2 thought scour

4 wasteland
4 underground sea
2 tropical island
1 bayou
4 misty rainforest
4 polluted delta
1 verdant catacombs

I'm not sure which of these lists is the best, but they do present 3 distinct directions the deck could take.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Water_Wizard

Do you think Tombstalker is a 4 of?

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I think it is a 3-of personally. I wouldn't really want to draw two or more unless the game goes nice a long. As for the removal, I think that is a bit meta-dependent. I like Snuff Out personally. But then again there are arguments for Dismember. I would say it comes down to what you think plays better in you meta.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by rchinnock

If you don't want to play dark confidant either, you could do something like this:

4 delver of secrets
4 nimble mongoose
4 tarmogoyf
3-4 force of will
3 daze
3-4 spell pierce
2 inquisition of kozilek
2 thoughtseize
3 ghastly demise
1 dismember
4 brainstorm
4 ponder
2 thought scour

4 wasteland
4 underground sea
2 tropical island
1 bayou
4 misty rainforest
4 polluted delta
1 verdant catacombs

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I like the 3rd list the best and I'm wondering if Spell Pierce should be Stifle. Personally, I really like Stifle and it fits well in the Daze/Wasteland plan. I'm going to post a Grixis list Caleb Durward wrote about on June 19th (that's the 2nd Durward list I've posted in this thread today!).

http://www.channelfireball.com/artic...-captains-log/

I don't agree with all the choices Caleb made. His two last-second additions of Creeping Tar Pit and Sower of Temptation don't seem to fit the deck and Sower's 4 cc mana cost seems high in a deck with only 19 lands (4 of which are Wastelands). Caleb's a successful tournament player, so what do I know?

I posted the list because I like Caleb's spell suite. Swap out 4 Lightning Bolts, 1 Forked Bolt, 1 Sower, and the EE for Geese and Goyf (and I know the plural of Mongoose is not Mongeese, it's Mongooses) and you've got a pretty solid BUG Tempo list. The list also needs some removal, swapping out some of the creature spots (Clique/Tombstalker/Goose) gets that done.

Diabolic Edict as a Dismember alternative? Edict is also good vs. Sneak and Show and Renaimator.

I wonder if Unearth has a spot in the 4 Thought Scour version? I was trying to think of Flashback or Dredge cards which would be good with Thought Scour. Unearth saw some play in the early BUG Snapcaster Mage lists. At worst, Unearth is a 2 cc cycler. However, it doesn't do you very much good if it's blind Thought Scoured.

Life from the Loam was the only dredger that came to mind (that and Darkblast, but it's already been disapproved). LftL is good in certain match-ups, but generally, it goes against Tempo. Maybe as a 1-of in the sideboard.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Sturtzilla

I think it (Tombstalker) is a 3-of personally. I wouldn't really want to draw two or more unless the game goes nice a long. As for the removal, I think that is a bit meta-dependent. I like Snuff Out personally. But then again there are arguments for Dismember. I would say it comes down to what you think plays better in you meta.

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I agree with Tombstalker as a 3-of. I like the raw power of Snuff Out, but I prefer Dismember in long games because of it's ability to cost 0 or 2 life. Snuff Out can also cost 0 life, but at 4 cc. Is the non-black of Snuff Out ever an issue in today's meta? It can't hit an opposing Tombstalker. It has minor implications against Dredge and Nic Fit. It can't hit or slow down a Griselbrand. Conclusion: the only way I see the non-black aspect of Snuff Out mattering is in trying to shrink/chump a Griselbrand.

Speaking of Snuff Out, I used to love me some of the Team America from Jan '11 that ran 4 Snuff Out, 4 Thoughtseize, and 10 Fetches with Hymn and Stifle. Sure, your deck could do you 38 damage (including FOW), but that deck dismantled people :wink:

Stifle is good, but it doesn't realy mix as well having both discard and all 8 one-drops. You either want to play a turn one delver or mongoose, or you want to thoughtseize them. Again, as some people in this thread have noted, stifle works well in RUG because there it basically takes the place of BUG's targetted discard. Black's more tap-out nature, however, makes it less suited for BUG when you play delver and mongoose.

Regarding Caleb's list - I think its basically solid but ya it has some odd card choices that seem sub-optimal to me. Not only Sower but also V-Clique. He runs only 19 lands whereas many TA lists run 20 and still wouldn't want many 3 drops, nevermind 4 drops. I'd like to play either Liliana of the Veil or Maelstrom pulse, but the 3 cmc is keeping me away from them. Creeping tar pit also seems awkward and slow. If I was going to run tar pit I would put it in as a 21st land, not a 19th. It shouldn't hurt you if its just an extra land, but if its one of your crucial few, it seems too awkward and risky. Also, EE seems bad in this deck. Anyone worried about the tempo loss from Sylvan Library, Life from the Loam, etc. might want to think twice about playing EE since it is slow just like they are, and may even end up killing our own creatures. In the RUG mirror its probably especially awkward, since its both slow and can be stifled. Finally, Grixis is cool but why sacrifice Goyf? Its one of the best creatures in the deck, and so is mongoose. YOu'd need a good replacement creature, since tombstalker and delver aren't enough, and V-Clique is often going to be too expensive and slow. You'll likely never cast your V-CLique's if one of your lands gets wasted, especially if your opponent plays daze. If you want to play burn in a tempo deck play RUG, if you want to play discard play Goyf. THere aren't enough options as far as good tempo creatures go to not play green, in my opinion.

And I see why people want to run snuff out, since its awesome, but I don't realy think its the best option in the current meta, with RUG being so big especially. It seems to me that if you aren't running tombstalker, and especially if you are running thought scour, that ghastly demise is the best removal spell you can run. Dismember is good, too, if you fear black decks but really who plays black creatures nowadays? even we don't. I've got my removal suite as 3 ghastly demise 1 dismember and maybe a diabolic edict, darkblast or a disfigure. Snuff out is really efficient, I guess the most efficient removal spell in existence, since its 0 mana to kill almost anything. It is realy painful however and against some decks, like RUG, I've found the 4 life to be a big problem, especially when ghastly demise is only 1 mana (which is a lot more than 0 but still obviously cheap) and kills basically anything unless for some reason someone exiles your graveyard. Diabolic edict and dismember are also really good. Having an out to EMrakul, as you've pointed out Water_Wizard, seems good. It also kills Mother of Runes if they ahve no other creatures, for what that's worth. If we ARE running tombstalker, however, I think probably dismember, diabolic edict, and disgure are the 3 best? IDK. What do people think about all this?

Calebs list- pretty crazy blend, seems tuned against SnS with canadian and U/W miracle control in mind too. Myself and others have tested grixis TA and the main problem is the lack of efficient replacements for goyf although having an entire flying threat suite is nice and his choice are good from the perspective of alternatives in those colors.
The upsides to red are good too, namely the best SB options between R/B and immunity to submerge for tombstalker is amazing, while burn + stalker is a 3 turn clock that canadian cant stop. Id also like to point out that EE wont hurt much in this deck since flipped delvers are cc0 so if it does kill delver it was likely to correct losing board position against zombie or entreat tokens. Not sure I like tarpit either but obviously its there to kill jace miracle controls main wincon.

On more traditional TA removal suite- The difference between dismember and snuff out is kotr and thalia. Edicts have always disappointed me main but they are good from the board. I prefer the most utility removal main (snuff + stalkers OR demise - stalkers) and leave the more conditional stuff to the SB (massacre, perish, edicts etc).

Tombstalker - would you choose snuff out over dismember? Do you not think the almost mandatory life loss of snuff out is too much? And what about disfigure? It kills most Maverick's dudes, and can also kill delvers. It seems potentially viable to me as another removal spell so we don't have to lose like 2354234 life. Yeah it would really be nice to have lightning bolt, swords, or path ...

And regarding EE those are good points but still its pretty expensive, and if you have a flipped delver you lose yours if you kill theirs, or if you have an unflipped one you lose it if you try to kill their unflipped one or a mongoose - eh... I guess if you are really scared of mongeese but it seems like it could be too awkward. An easier solution to killing Mongoose, which also kills EMrakul, and in the end costs the same as EE, is Liliana. SHe's a sack effect that's also a discard effect. Besides 3cmc she seems excellent for this deck, since we also empty are hands quickly, and she can even make goyf bigger. Overall I think that if you want a way to kill non-targettable guys, she's the best maindeck solution, next to (maybe) diabolic edict from the board. She might be good even if we didn't need sac effects specifically from her. But maybe she's not that great, I'm not sure.

You could run a list like the following:

4 delver of secrets
4 tarmogoyf
3 tombstalker
4 force of will
3 daze
3 spell pierce
3 dismember
1 disfigure
2 liliana of the veil
2 inquisition of kozilek
2 thoughtseize
4 brainstorm
4 ponder

4 wasteland
4 underground sea
2 bayou
1 tropical island
4 polluted delta
4 misty rainforest
1 verdant catacombs

First of all, I just want to thank everyone for the good posts in this thread. The posts are civil, informative, and organized. The conversation stays on-topic and posts add to the conversation without being negative or containing personal attacks. Bravo!

@ rchinnock - 2 posts ago, you mention discard plus 8 one-drops. I assume you are talking about 4 Delver / 4 Goose. In a build with Stifle, I would cut Goose. I prefer Tombstalker, and as previously discussed, Goose + Stalker = Nonbo.

still @ rchinnock - 1 post ago, I think Disfigure has to be a Darkblast. Darkblast kills an unflipped Delver, let's you win the Tarmogoyf war, and targets Dryad Arbor, Noble Heirarch, Thalia, and Mother of Runes, not to mention its implications vs. Elves, Vendilion Clique or Snapcaster Mage. As previously discussed, Darkblast can be a -2/-2 if you use it on your upkeep, and I guess even a -3/-3 if you use it with Brainstorm or Ponder, but that is in rare cases.

EE is mainly to kill Mongoose in Caleb's list. As Tombstalker (the poster, not the card) notes, EE also has implications vs. tokens and can kill Counterbalance.

Right now, I'm facing a lot of Reanimator and Sneak and Show. That is why I run Diabolic Edict main. I agree with Tombstalker, usually it is not ideal, but when 50% of your match-ups are 'sneak a fatty into play' Edict is main deck material. I also decided to go Grixis over BUG due to the sideboard options - REB and PB (also noted by Tombstalker) and the fact Bolts can go to the face, while Dismember/Darkblast are wasted vs. Griselbrand and Emrakul. This is a meta decision. If I faced green creatures, I would definitely run 3 Dismember with Darkblast and Perish in the sb. I'm still not sold on Snuff Out, although I'm considering it.

rchinnock, agreed, 3 CC for Clique and Liliana is high, but against decks w/o Wasteland (Sneak and Show, Reanimator, and most UW), it's not too hard to hit 3 mana and both are house. Currently, I'm only running Clique. Liliana plus Counter magic = nonbo. Liliana also plays into Reanimator's plan, so that's kind of a nonbo, too. I like Liliana, but I think Life from the Loam is needed to make her shine, so that puts us in more of a BUG mid-range/control build.

About Tarpit: it also doesn't die to Terminus on their turn. That + protection from Jace makes it an excellent choice for the Miracle MU.

I agree with Tombstalker-man, the main issue with Grixis is the lack of a solid creature for the crea slots 8-12. Clique and Delver both die to bolts and forked bolt, and aren't good blockers. Goyf is solid.
Also, I found the potential need for R on turn 1 in Grixis (to bolt a creature) slightly problematic since we can't fetch an underground sea t1. It messes up with our mana base a little bit, unlike TA, and unlike RUG (who will happily fetch volcanic island t1).
Having said that, if we find a solid substitute for Goyf in UBR, I would probably switch to Grixis, because of the cards Submerge, Perish and Pyroblast.

About the removals: as I said a few pages ago, I like Disfigure in this meta, and dominants RUG/SnS/Esper/Maverick. Yes, it doesn't hit KoR, but usually we can counter/discard it or race it. There is one bigger problem I think, it's Scavenging ooze, but again it's a bit slow if we already have a flying threat. I also run 1 or 2 Darkblasts because it accelerates into Tombstalkers.

You run Disfigure with Darkblast? What's your removal package?

Just throwing this out there, but is it possible to run GRUB?

I don't think it's right to run Goyf/Goose with Tombstalker, but Tombstalker helps to diversify against Relic/Ooze/cards that shrink graveyards (assuming Tombstalker is delved before the gy disappears.)

Hypothetically, GRUB would run Gofy/Goose (I think we want to stay away from Tombstalker due to the BB). A sample list would look like this:

4 Delver
4 Goose
4 Goyf

3 Spell Pierce
3 IoK
4 FOW
3 Daze
4 Stifle
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder

4 Wasteland
3 Volcanic Island
2 Underground Sea
3 Tropical Island
3 Misty Rainforest
4 Scalding Tarn

This proposed deck:
1) Has some 1-drop issues (Stifle/IOK/NMG/DoS all compete for that slot - it is probably proper to cut 1 or more)
2) Mana base is shaky - I went up to 8 duals / 7 fetch to attempt to compensate for this. Some RUG lists are now running 8 duals / 6 fetch (18 lands), so this may be alright.
3) The real beauty of this deck is it's sideboard plan.

RED: REB/PB, Ancient Grudge, Sulfur Elemental
BLACK: Thoughtseize/Duress, Darkblast, Diabolic Edict, targeted removal
BLUE: BEB, Submerge, Mind Harness, Flusterstorm, 1 Spell Pierce
GREEN: flashback Ancient Grudge, nah, just kidding. Life from the Loam is necessary because of opponent's Wastelands. Green is a weak sideboard color for this deck. I guess KGrip is good vs. Counterbalance if UW Miracles continues to grow.

Terminate - does anyone play this card anymore?
Perish seems like a nonbo, but it may be worth it.

Sample sideboard:
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Nihil Spellbomb
1 Ghastly Demise
1 Darkblast
2 Pyroblast
1 Life from the Loam
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Submerge
2 Duress

This deck would be most powerful vs. combo and control and suffer against decks with Wasteland/big creatures.

I have been happy with 2 Snuff Out + 2 Disfigure + 2 Darkblast (with 4 Tombstalker), but I'd like to remove Snuff Out completely to be able to play 4 Thoughseize. So I may increase the number of Disfigure, or maybe use Go For the Throat (although I hate removals with cc2 in Tempo).

Goyf and Tombstalker work just fine together. When you delve, just keep the one card type your opp doesn't have in his graveyard, and your Goyf is still 4/5. It's not like Mongoose or Grim Lavamancer, really.

Also, I'm not sure playing 4 colors in Tempo is a good idea. Especially when RUG and Maverick are both playing 4 Wasteland, it will be too easy for them to screw with your colors.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by dionykos

Also, I'm not sure playing 4 colors in Tempo is a good idea. Especially when RUG and Maverick are both playing 4 Wasteland, it will be too easy for them to screw with your colors.

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Totally agree. GRUB would not do well vs. decks with a playset of Wastelands. GRUB would shine vs. Combo decks and Control.

The archtype sucks as UG. Adding a third color destabilizes the mana base, but is necessary to provide better removal options and utility. I don't think 4-colors is the way to go with this archtype. It requires so much commitment on board, and banking on not getting blown out that I just never thought it was worth it. It's really only good in a metagame with tons of combo and decks not looking to prey on your mana base and give you some time to develop. I was thinking about something like this:

4 nimble mongoose
4 tarmogoyf
3 dark confidant
1 vendilion clique
(12)

4 ghastly demise
1 darkblast
1 dismember
(6)

1 engineered explosives
(1)

3 inquisition of kozilek
2 thoughtseize
(5)

4 brainstorm
3 ponder
(7)

3 force of will
4 daze
3 spell pierce
(10)

3 wasteland
4 polluted delta
2 misty rainforest
2 verdant catacombs
4 undergound sea
3 tropical island
1 bayou
(19)

Clique could probably come out for another removal spell. I opted to not go the snapcaster route, as that tends to be better for decks that have an amazing sideboard transition to a control hybrid. So instead I jammed "Underloved Bob" as a 3-of. Concept was use efficiently curved guys (not a fan of delver), and a bunch of redundant spells so I can just power on the gas turn after turn with an active Bob.

Although for a large event I would rather brew a Snapcaster list anyways.

Water_Wizard, first of all, I'm not running stifle so that's why I have the 8 one-drops. Although maybe stifle is worth running. It doesn't seem to really clash with mongosoe, however, so much as it does with discard.

Regarding mongoose vs. tombstalker, here are my arguments for mongoose (which I'm not necesarily taking sides with, just putting them out there to present a clear picture of the options - I'll say what I like about tombstalker too):

(1) he's less demanding for your mana base (you can run 18 lands including 4 wastelands just like RUG if you run mongoose/delver/goyf for your creature base).

(2) you are less vulnerable to wasteland and stifle which can sometimes keep you off of double black (happened to me a lot from the little bit I played against RUG).

(3) since mongoose costs less mana its easier to keep counter mana up for spell pierce, which seems very important in some matchups.

(4) ghastly demise seems too good not to play. Its often a sword to plowshares that they don't gain any life from, or a path they don't get a land from: seems better than losing 4 life.

It seems like the main argument for tombstalker is that he's better against RUG, IF you can land him, which seems like it will often be difficult. Being much harder to kill with burn is obviously awesome, and often when I resolved one against RUG it was game over. Also, he seems better against Maverick. I'm not entirely sure these benefits outweigh the up-sides of the mongoose/ghastly demise plan, but they should be taken into consideration. My main problems with tombstalker are: (1) while he seems strictly better against Maverick than mongoose, you won't always want to lose life in a race with them. (2) against RUG, he is better if you land him than mongoose is, but landing him is difficult. In addition, you have to run life-losing removal which is very bad against RUG, so in addition to maybe not being able to resolve tombstalker through wasteland/stifle/daze, you might still lose because you could end up losing a lot of life to your removal and then getting burned out. Again, I do still acknowledge that he's awesome if he resolves, and this should happen a decent amount of the time. So even the matchups where tombstalker is better, that advantage over mongoose will often be balanced out by the fact that your removal will hurt you in those matchups. And then you have some matchups where mongoose seems strictly better, when you don't want to tap out, like against combo. However, its also true that tombstalker will sometimes race combo faster, if you get it down quickly enough, so IDK: I like both. I guess the biggest hangup for me is ghastly demise. It seems like when tombstalker used to be big it wasn't as big of a deal to run snuff out, but with RUG around snuff out and dismember seem like they might be too risky to run in multiples.

Is there anything important I'm leaving out of the comparison?

No, I think you pretty much got it all in your analysis. Good, thorough analysis.

Nimble Mongoose is better in BUG.

Tombstalker is better in Grixis.

Depending on what decks you expect to face, you determine if RUG, BUG, or Grixis is the right deck for you. They are all Tempo decks. All focus around 1/2 drops with plenty of cantrips and cheap spells and are designed to win in the mid-game (around turns 5-8).

The only fact I would add about Mongoose is that he is very good against UW. If UW Miracles continues to grow (as I expect it will), Mongoose is a real pain for them to handle.

I don't think any Tempo deck, RUG, BUG, or Grixis, is good against Maverick. However, all of those decks have significant sideboard options to help out - Perish, Sulfur Elemental, Submerge, and Mind Harness, being the most common options-of-choice.

Couple questions:

- Are there any viable lists that run UB as colors?

- Why aren't there more Grixis lists? Discard + counters + reach (ala burn) seems like the perfect setup to completely destroy combo and control decks. Having burn would also solve the issue of life-loss from black-based removal.

- Is it remotely possible to run a Tempo deck without Wasteland?

Quote:

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Originally Posted by DragoFireheart

Couple questions:

- Are there any viable lists that run UB as colors?

- Why aren't there more Grixis lists? Discard + counters + reach (ala burn) seems like the perfect setup to completely destroy combo and control decks. Having burn would also solve the issue of life-loss from black-based removal.

- Is it remotely possible to run a Tempo deck without Wasteland?

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I've been playing with this recently but don't know where to put it in terms of threads, it is kind of like the Russian list, but kind of like the BUG lists, and I'm slowly morphing it more towards a next level thresh style(with jace and C spell). The sideboard needs work and some numbers in the main deck can be moved around, started with Levin's list from a few weeks ago but hymn hasn't been relevant in about a year.

4 Delver of Secrets
3 Tombstalker
4 Vendilion Clique

4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
1 Go for the Throat
4 Ponder
2 Snuff Out
3 Spell Pierce
4 Stifle
3 Thoughtseize

2 Bloodstained Mire
2 Flooded Strand
3 Island
4 Polluted Delta
2 Swamp
3 Underground Sea
4 Wasteland

Sideboard:
6 ?
3 Extirpate
1 Go for the Throat
2 Massacre
2 Perish
1 Thoughtseize

Changes I am back and forth on, cutting daze's and focusing strictly on getting to the mid game and adding pairs of jace and counterspell, moving the third thoughtseize to the board for more pierce main, and adding the 21st land (tarpit would probably be really greedy but sweet).

Don't know how I feel about stifle: lands(fetch+waste), stoneforge mystic, maybe demon(?), are the only targets I think of that happen that are super relevant, other wise I feel like I am discarding a card.

The extirpates were leylines(4) but extirpate is probably just better.

Miserable matchups include:
Tribal decks: Merfolk is really tough, I can't imagine goblins being much better. elves you get perish out of the board so there's that.
Maybe maverick, have not really played against it too much but with 4 wrath of gods post board it probably gets better.
Burn: you may want some BEB, also ok versus RUG at protecting dudes.

I don't like the burn, I'd rather have solid removal that kills guys straight up and a rock solid mana base. But I can see why people want it.

Quote:

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Originally Posted by ThomasDowd

Miserable matchups include:
Tribal decks: Merfolk is really tough, I can't imagine goblins being much better. elves you get perish out of the board so there's that.
Maybe maverick, have not really played against it too much but with 4 wrath of gods post board it probably gets better.
Burn: you may want some BEB, also ok versus RUG at protecting dudes.

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Not to be rude... but, if you are miserable versus all of these decks, maybe you should consider playing something else. It seems that list would likely make up a solid swath of any meta.

There is a Grixis Delver thread! Check it out! http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...xis-(UBr-tempo)

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Originally Posted by Sturtzilla

Not to be rude... but, if you are miserable versus all of these decks, maybe you should consider playing something else. It seems that list would likely make up a solid swath of any meta.

There is a Grixis Delver thread! Check it out! http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...xis-(UBr-tempo)

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Word I'll cross post this in that thread.

Maverick I don't have enough data on so it's hard to say. plus the few times i played against knight of the reliquary I forgot how big she got (I usually play combo so just ignore the size of it) so wasted my snuff outs on stupid things like hierarch. played bad, got punished.

Burn and fish are basically the two bad ones, and those don't show up that much anymore. also merfolk is beatable with the removal, sniping lords at opportune times.

And I don't think the burn match is that great for RUG either, since it is pretty much the same shell, it is just really tight.

But yeah working on it and seeing what to do with it.