[Deck] The Rock

Another card I "found" again after flipping through my box: EE. EE solves the problem of Deed being a bit slow, but EE is great against Tempo, especially Goose/Delver. It can be easily cast, doesn't need 2 colours (since we'll be EE'ing mostly on 1 or 2, but with birds we can do 4 for Jace in case) and is a tad faster. I may try 2 in the main, with 2 Deed in the board. Also helps against Maverick a bit (hitting their 2 drops can be nutty, or killing tokens/stuffs).

Yeah, Ghastly does have that terrible downside of being shrunk, but I think in the tempo matchups, where you're valuing speed/efficiency, I think Demise takes the cake. Obviously Path is better since the GY restriction isn't present, but putting a deck like Stoneblade ahead by a land is a fucking disaster. T3 Jace is not what I was planning on :P

I don't think Hymn is too slow, but if you were not getting there with Hymn in your meta, that's understandable. I mean, part of this deck is 8 pieces of discard to try and fudge your opponent around. I think if you're cutting Hymns, cut Vindicate for Pulse. Since you're now never on the land denial plan, Maelstrom Pulse has possible extra value here.

-Matt

Not sure what direction Rock decks are taking nowindays, but why doesn't Glissa, the Traitor see more play? Simply unable to take advantage of her second effect? A 3/3 with First Strike and Deathtouch can kill quite a few things easily.

I think it's because it's only a 3/3. I've always wanted to play it, but I never really thought it cut the mustard. If it was a 4/4, I think that'd be okay, but the fact that it takes 7 turns to beat down instead of 5 makes it meh.

I may give it a try, though. Can't hurt. Drago, want to try it? Also Drago, are you following me thread to thread? First Thopters, now here? :tongue:

-Matt

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Originally Posted by sdematt

I think it's because it's only a 3/3. I've always wanted to play it, but I never really thought it cut the mustard. If it was a 4/4, I think that'd be okay, but the fact that it takes 7 turns to beat down instead of 5 makes it meh.

I may give it a try, though. Can't hurt. Drago, want to try it?

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-I would but I'd not a fan of decks without Force of Will or Lightning Bolt. I've played Rock in the past but it's simply not a style I care for. Anyways, she may work with your EE suggestion. Recurring EE is pretty broken for last game dominance. Here are some decks that did try to use her:

http://www.thecouncil.es/tcdecks/bus...ide=&strict=on

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Also Drago, are you following me thread to thread? First Thopters, now here? :tongue:
-Matt

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-Why not? :wink:

Canadian Threshold is, I dare say, 70% in Rock's favor. Between discard and all the removal, they will have a hard time keeping threats on board or countering yours. I play Mox and don't play Thoughtseize, so I suppose that helps...

I tested 2 EE in the deck and dont like, but its before the Canadian Thresh becomes popular again, now whit 2 GSZ and 1 Glissa i think its can be cool.

So I changed up my build just a bit, in light of tempo being the tits right now. I hate cutting SFM, but I was down to 2-3 of them anyway, and I was getting massacred by Bolt or some other black removal every time I landed it, or having it Stifled. Fucking hell.

So, I decided to cut stuff, and so far, it's been decent. Very decent.

24 lands (Dryad Arbor, Maze, Karakas, 3 Wasteland,3 Basics).

4 Knight
4 Tarmogoyf (he's just a 4/5, which is relevant, since he doesn't die to bolt...)
4 Dark Confidant
1 Qasali Pridemage
1 Birds of Paradise
14

4 Swords to Plowshares
3 Hymn to Tourach (by far, seemed to be weak due to getting colour screwed at times against Tempo. I'm just cutting it back by one, since I'm playing infinite tempo)
3 Vindicate
3 Top
3 GSZ
3 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Thoughtseize
2 EE (again, was VERY good. Taking out Mongeese, Grim, Delver, etc. was great all day)
23

I may take out the 2x Thoughtseize for the 4th Inquisition just to free up a slot, but so far, it's been fine.

My board so far, looks like this:

2 Pernicious Deed
3 Extirpate
1 Virtue's Ruin
2 Krosan Grip
1 Scavenging Ooze
1 Gaddock Teeg
2 Duress
+3 Slots (probably Ghastly Demises or something).

Virtue's Ruin is great against Maverick, since most of their creatures are either White, or GW. Only ones that aren't are Scryb, Ooze, Thrun, Noble/Birds. Knight, Mindcensor, SFM, Mom, Qasali, Gaddock Teeg. The most dangerous stuff seems to be white, here.

-Matt

About the EE issue: as I am a big fan of bitterblossom (and will always be) and have had 3 BB for a long time, I have also been using EE for a long time (faeries don't like deed) and it has always performed very well. The idea of trying 1-of Glissa to reuse EE (as someone suggested) should be, at least, considered.

I also have 2 deed SB, but they usually stay there in G2 and G3, so I'll probably cut them off.

Just my 2 cents.

With GSZ you should seriously consider a singleton Scavenging Ooze. Whether you cut a Goyf or whatever for it, it can get huge in a hurry, or just nerf things like Snapcaster, Welder, opposing KotRs, etc.

In my meta, I wasn't getting full value out of it. I'd cut the Thoughtseize for it, though. I don't want to go down on threats/Goyfs.

-Matt

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Originally Posted by f|i[p]

Just a quick question, how was liliana overall? I often found her doing nothing at times...did you side her out often?

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She was and has been awesome. I was trying to keep her under wraps but some other people noticed.

The thing I noticed about her is that she good, but she needs help. She's not like Jace where late game she can filter your cards and she can't win the game by herself (unless you keep FoF'ing their permanents). So, in most decks, she's not enough. What she needs is a little bit of help from you. Without it, it's probably going to have a bad turnout.

As far as siding her out, I did a couple of times. She's a little slow in some cases, Combo Elves to give a specific case. The funny thing is, Her addition was actually to deal with Progenitus and have extra discard against Combo.

I've had a chance to test her vs Combo and has proven that it's good once you get their hand down to size. So, people who have TS and/or Hymn will be able to assist in limiting their Hand size. They'll draw their card for turn, and you'll force them to discard, so 1;1. You're keeping their Hand size the same, Forcing them to keep possibly worse cards than the better ones they could have.

At the end of the day, if they're going to go off, you're still done for. She just helps buy you some time to possibly steal the game.

Against Progen, I haven't actually killed one with her yet. The last time I had the chance to, they had 1 other creature and were trying to figure out how to survive the Knight I had on the board. Playing her took the decision from them.

I know I didn't get to kill the Progen with her but, we do have more removal than most other decks. We have the ability to limit their creatures sitting alongside Progen that could be used as fodder to Lili. Or, just putting them in a situation that Progen isn't a threat.

Overall, I've found that there is almost NEVER an instance where you don't use Lili. As all Planeswalkers, value is gained when they are used. Remember, they are also losing a card. They are also limited drawing a single card per turn (unless outstanding situations exist) and in a topdeck war, the deck should outdraw everything, with either an answer or a threat.

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Originally Posted by f|i[p]

How about stoneforge?

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Stoneforge is still extremely helpful. it's not a matter of always getting Batterskull. sometimes it's better to get either a sword or Jitte.

Sometimes what you actually want to do is just let them see it. Decks like RUG tend to bring in Ancient Grudge. That gives them shots at the Mox as well as activated Tops. Yes, you're risking them aiming at those things but, you know those things are going to come in. Adjust. Take out the Stoneforge package when it's actually just going to clutter things up. They'll usually hold their removal for the equipment. My Esperblade opponent held his disenchant over 2 swords and a Snapcaster waiting for equipment. It was in the board.

This doesn't always work. Sometimes, you need the package as a possble out to random situation. Hence actually keeping it in Against CTT. Burn can suck and the only way to beat it is to actually gain the life back.

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Originally Posted by f|i[p]

Did you ever think about having Sobam instead of Sofi?

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Earlier, when I was building a Bant list I did. With this deck, I looked at my reasoning for the Bant list and figured that it would do for reasoning that this deck didn't want it.

Reasoning (from my post in the Bant Aggro Page)

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Not Jose but I did run SoBM instead of SoFI in my build before going back to Rock. Body and Mind is Pro Green and Blue. Meaning that your creature would be Pro Goyf/Knight and Pro Jace.

The 2/2 wolf is also left to block any creature which become relevant against aggro. Reason it's good vs Merfolk is because it doesn't count on them not having 2 lords or a swarm of creatures (Folk and Gobo's) to still be effective against them. It Essentially gains you life in that sense and still kills any creature SoFI would've killed.

The Mill is also relevant in the aggro match as you will grow your Goyf to increase the clock. you are also giving your Ooze fodder to gain more life than just the damage the wolf would prevent.

It's also useful vs Thopter Sword as they are still being clocked (by mill if they can still race the damage).

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So, for this styled deck, We can force single lords against Merfolk, especially when in games 2/3 (Seven 1cc removal spells alongside of a seeming infinite removal sweet helps a lot) so we don't need to leave wolves back to block. We're already killing creatures, so our Ooze will grow without the forced milling of their deck.

Their Goyf and Knights are matched by our own, and because of the removal sweet we have access to, we already have the ability to trump them. Worst case scenario, you have to blow your bog on their Knight. Just realize, anyone who's playing a Knight, could have anything you've thought of playing with your own. that makes the Pro-Green pretty much useless outside of swinging past thing.

Jace isn't as used since Misstep left the format (I'm actually missing it... Made this deck better). So, Pro-Blue only holds him against Thopters, which there is a maindeck Bog, Ooze, and Pulses available. Post board, there are Chokes, Extirpates, and Jitte (may not make sense, give it a chance). So we're not really all concerned with that.

All points aside, the single card is more important than anything else. We topdeck better than most decks. Yes, they play less lands, have brainstorm, and creatures. But, They don't filter their lands out to the extent that we do. They don't have nearly as much removal as we do. They are limited to brainstorming 3 cards where we are able to Top, Libarary, and Bob. That means they get to see the three cards and pray for a shuffle effect (which is usually a land).

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Originally Posted by f|i[p]

The split of library and sensei , was it random? as library usually gets snared.. or was it more for avoiding 2 sensei in play.

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Not random at all. I guess the best way to say it is, "I didn't care." I tested Library on the advice of someone else in this thread who had mentioned that it was amazing. Even if it wasn't as synergistic with Bob as top is. After testing a little bit, I noticed that I was enjoying that more the ability to draw one of the cards, more than I was enjoying spinning my wheels with Top.

The second in the board was chosen instead of a top for the same reason. It being in the board is because of the same reason that I always hated discard, "You can't beat the topdeck." I've come to love that thought though. Not because it's true, but because it applies to us as well. our topdeck is even stronger when we get to choose it. It allows us to fight decks playing thier own discard. When paired with the Batterskull, a Jitte, or the Ooze we can gain some amount of life, allowing us to keep an extra card every now and then.[/QUOTE]

I'm back on Rock, since the format has shifted to a place where none of my brews are particularly effective.

I've been running Glissa but she's just not that exciting. I rarely get the Glissa/EE softlock out. She does make a nasty blocker, but most of the time I feel like she's underwhelming for me because she doesn't *do* anything.

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Originally Posted by SpikeyMikey

I'm back on Rock, since the format has shifted to a place where none of my brews are particularly effective.

I've been running Glissa but she's just not that exciting. I rarely get the Glissa/EE softlock out. She does make a nasty blocker, but most of the time I feel like she's underwhelming for me because she doesn't *do* anything.

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I've actually tried a deck with glissa before, she's just always in removal range (dismember, bolt, etc.) in late games. I want to be getting damage through opponents not hitting through a wall, hence the reason I added terravore.

4 Bayou
2 Sylvan Library
2 Green Sun's Zenith
3 Tarmogoyf
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Forest
3 Swamp
4 Wasteland
4 Hymn to Tourach
1 Dryad Arbor
2 Beast Within
2 Maelstrom Pulse
3 Unearth
1 Scavenging Ooze
2 Pernicious Deed
1 Eternal Witness
3 Mox Diamond
1 Volrath's Stronghold
1 Life from the Loam
3 Dark Confidant
3 Marsh Flats
3 Dismember
2 Liliana of the Veil
1 Thrun, the Last Troll
2 Terravore

I'm focusing on improving the main deck. Please let me know what you think.

How do I board in against Aggro loam?

i have

4 faerie macrebe
1 tormod's crypt
2 chains of mephistopheles
3 path to exiles
3 pernicious deed
2 duress

Against Loam, I think you really want to board in:

4 Faerie Macabre
1 Tormod's Crypt
2 Chains

Why Chains? They can't use Cycling lands as a draw engine. Sure, they Loam most of the time, but sometimes it's also just to draw cards. Make sure before you try to muck his Loams that he doesn't have Cycling lands to Dodge the hate. Extirpate is better at killing Loam decks. Plus, it's still good against Reanimator, etc. I'd suggest:

2 Faerie Macabre
3 Extirpate

-Matt

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Originally Posted by sdematt

Against Loam, I think you really want to board in:

4 Faerie Macabre
1 Tormod's Crypt
2 Chains

Why Chains? They can't use Cycling lands as a draw engine. Sure, they Loam most of the time, but sometimes it's also just to draw cards. Make sure before you try to muck his Loams that he doesn't have Cycling lands to Dodge the hate. Extirpate is better at killing Loam decks. Plus, it's still good against Reanimator, etc. I'd suggest:

2 Faerie Macabre
3 Extirpate

-Matt

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are these actually enough to beat reanimator? that deck can smoke you with turn 2 jins.

You're also playing Karakas, Ooze, Thoughtseize, Faerie M, Swords to Plowshares, Extirpate and Path out of the board. You're fine.

-Matt

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Originally Posted by sdematt

You're also playing Karakas, Ooze, Thoughtseize, Faerie M, Swords to Plowshares, Extirpate and Path out of the board. You're fine.

-Matt

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Wow...so the Rock has much more options for different decks than other rock based decks.

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Originally Posted by sdematt

You're also playing Karakas, Ooze, Thoughtseize, Faerie M, Swords to Plowshares, Extirpate and Path out of the board. You're fine.

-Matt

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Heh, I had a Reanimator player drop turn 2 Iona on black to stop the Liliana of the Veil he saw off a Gitaxian Probe. He promptly got ruined by a topdecked Maze of Ith. Maze kept him stuck until I could land Knight of the Reliquary and search up Karakas. Yeah, this deck can lose to Reanimator just like any other, but I can't think of a matchup Reanimator would dislike playing more. Maybe TA?

I agree Mikey. I think our reanimator matchup is fine.

What's everyone been boarding in vs. CB RUG? I've returned two chokes to my board and I'm thinking about adding #3 and maybe #4. I just tend to scoop up to CB, MUC, and Landstill variants..