Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
Ok, I should've been more precise. Of course chant is better versus multiple counterspells. However, if the opponent draws 14 cards in response to your chant/silence you're usually just doomed because he has multiple pitch counterspells.
Chant-Effects are a good protection spell. But given the SneakShow matchup, what I do not like about Chant-effects is that can usually can only protect your own combo turn and rarely can be used as proactive disruption in the previous turns (I know, there are some situations... but I really do not want to write a book here).
What can Chant do? Either you open a god hand and are faster than them with chant protection (which is not an easy task) or you can try to Chant them in your turn when they already got Griselbrand in play.... which again does not seem very helpful either most of the times (they just draw 14 cards in response and force your chant and still have counter magic in hand).
With 7 discard effects you can slow the SneakShow player down (discarding their combo pieces and forces) and then just play around the soft counters in turn 3 or 4.
Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
Quote:
Originally Posted by
katakis
Ok, I should've been more precise. Of course chant is better versus multiple counterspells. However, if the opponent draws 14 cards in response to your chant/silence you're usually just doomed because he has multiple pitch counterspells.
Chant-Effects are a good protection spell. But given the SneakShow matchup, what I do not like about Chant-effects is that can usually can only protect your own combo turn and rarely can be used as proactive disruption in the previous turns (I know, there are some situations... but I really do not want to write a book here).
What can Chant do? Either you open a god hand and are faster than them with chant protection (which is not an easy task) or you can try to Chant them in your turn when they already got Griselbrand in play.... which again does not seem very helpful either most of the times (they just draw 14 cards in response and force your chant and still have counter magic in hand).
With 7 discard effects you can slow the SneakShow player down (discarding their combo pieces and forces) and then just play around the soft counters in turn 3 or 4.
Try to chant-walk so they can't drop Griselbrand via S&T/cast Enter the Infinite with Omniscience, before you kill them?
You can't fight an uphill battle against a resolved Griselbrand
Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
Quote:
Originally Posted by
katakis
[snip]What can Chant do? Either you open a god hand and are faster than them with chant protection (which is not an easy task) or you can try to Chant them in your turn when they already got Griselbrand in play.... which again does not seem very helpful either most of the times (they just draw 14 cards in response and force your chant and still have counter magic in hand).
With 7 discard effects you can slow the SneakShow player down (discarding their combo pieces and forces) and then just play around the soft counters in turn 3 or 4.
My experience playing this matchup is the complete opposite. It's not that unrealistic to either open a hand that can go off t2 with protection or has some capacity to disrupt them before their turn 2. We are the faster combo deck. However, they almost always board in 4x Leyline of Sanctity, so disrupting them with discard is a crapshoot.
Meanwhile, they play Force and a bunch of taxing counters, something that Silence is absolutely golden against.
I typically board -1 Silence, -1 Infernal Tutor, -1 Empty the Warrens, -1 Gitaxian Probe for +2 Chain of Vapor, +2 Xantid Swarm. Not sure that the second Chain is necessary, but it can help with storm and occasionally you can bounce their Sneak Attack. My goal is to use Silence to make them Hymn themselves and have them play the control role until I can go off with protection. Every time I've played the control against S&S I've lost.
Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
Quote:
Originally Posted by
phazonmuant
Every time I've played the control against S&S I've lost.
My last report strongly agrees in it's conclusion
Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
Do you guys generally board out Empty vs every combo deck? I do like the list that had 2 empty the warrens. Not sure if I would be ballsy enough to play it, but Maybe I should be boarding in my SB empty vs tempo style decks?
Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Megadeus
Do you guys generally board out Empty vs every combo deck? I do like the list that had 2 empty the warrens. Not sure if I would be ballsy enough to play it, but Maybe I should be boarding in my SB empty vs tempo style decks?
I wouldn't ever sideboard in the second Empty because I want Wish to be live (with only 6 mana), but I do often board out an Empty against decks where I feel like I'll often lose after dropping Empty. Decks I board it out - S&S yes (maybe?), Omnitell definitely, ANT yes, Dredge no (so many dead discard spells...), Elves maybe (can't decide), Aluren no, Reanimator yes (Elesh Norn norn norn), TinFins yes.
Again, not sure if this is optimal, but I board out Empty a lot. Makes Ad Nauseam sooooo nice.
Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
What about against GB decks or other decks with sweepers? I sometimes board it out against like Nic Fit because it is only really good on T1 at that point thanks to pulse and deed.
Also what about for Jund? Usually against Jund I havent even been sideboarding. Should I be taking out silences? I usually just leave them in... I have been beating jund about 70% of the time, but Im not sure if I am boarding properly or not...
Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Megadeus
What about against GB decks or other decks with sweepers? I sometimes board it out against like Nic Fit because it is only really good on T1 at that point thanks to pulse and deed.
Also what about for Jund? Usually against Jund I havent even been sideboarding. Should I be taking out silences? I usually just leave them in... I have been beating jund about 70% of the time, but Im not sure if I am boarding properly or not...
I don't board much against Jund, if anything. They have nothing special that bothers me really. I keep the Silences in for chant-walking against discard, which saved my ass off Hymn 2 weeks ago.
It's justifyable to board out EtW for a Therapy against decks with Deed and Pulse.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
phazonmuant
I wouldn't ever sideboard in the second Empty because I want Wish to be live (with only 6 mana), but I do often board out an Empty against decks where I feel like I'll often lose after dropping Empty. Decks I board it out - S&S yes (maybe?), Omnitell definitely, ANT yes, Dredge no (so many dead discard spells...), Elves maybe (can't decide), Aluren no, Reanimator yes (Elesh Norn norn norn), TinFins yes.
Again, not sure if this is optimal, but I board out Empty a lot. Makes Ad Nauseam sooooo nice.
I can get behind this listing. I keep EtW in vs. Elves ... Duress against the Glimpse or a Chant is enough to make EtW lethal even against strong Elven-hands
Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
I rarely side out Empty. Putting early pressure, combined with disruption, is usually pretty decent. Empty just sucks if your opponent has a spell that kills all your tokens at once. Against combo it's even better since you turn on the flashback from Therapy. That sometimes just wins on the spot. (I personally usually don't play Therapy, so in my case it wouldn't be a relevant argument, but most play Therapy, so it deserves a mention.)
Also I feel that Empty does not necessarily make your Ad Nauseam worse. If you draw a bunch of awkward cards from AdN which includes an Empty, you always have the option of just casting it and hope the tokens will get there. It won me several games which I would otherwise have lost because I couldn't get to Tendrils after AdN. (One of these was a rediculous misplay of mine, but I was saved by Empty.)
Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
Quote:
Originally Posted by
katakis
One of these hybrids was played by me.
I played this list:
4 Dark Ritual
4 Rite of Flame
4 Lion’s Eye Diamond
4 Lotus Petal
2 Chrome Mox
4 Brainstorm
4 Ponder
4 Gitaxian Probe
4 Cabal Therapy
3 Duress
4 Infernal Tutor
3 Burning Wish
2 Empty the Warrens
1 Ad Nauseam
4 Polluted Delta
3 Bloodstained Mire
2 Underground Sea
2 Volcanic Island
1 Badlands
1 Bayou
SB:
2 Tendrils of Agony
1 Empty the Warrens
1 Past in Flames
1 Grapeshot
1 Diminishing Returns
3 Abrupt Decay
3 Dread of Night
2 Thoughtseize
1 Chain of Vapor
However, if you ignore the dual/fetchland manabase this list is quite close to a typical TES build.
Two EtW main? Yes, they are just that good in the current meta with all those blue aggrocontroldecks. Paired with maindeck cabal therapy they are also very good versus most non-blue decks.
Why no Chant/Silence? I expected a lot of SneakShow decks... and in this matchup additional discard is just better then chants, which are mostly useless vs an opponent with 14+ cards.
Hmm, that's not my round one opponent then. My bad. Anyways, I like the double EtW. Why try hard when you can win easy right?
Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Lemnear
I don't board much against Jund, if anything. They have nothing special that bothers me really. I keep the Silences in for chant-walking against discard, which saved my ass off Hymn 2 weeks ago.
It's justifyable to board out EtW for a Therapy against decks with Deed and Pulse.
I can get behind this listing. I keep EtW in vs. Elves ... Duress against the Glimpse or a Chant is enough to make EtW lethal even against strong Elven-hands
I have never lost vs a large ETW on T1 against elves. They need the nutters to go off on T2 anyway. If you are on the play you basically just win with 12 goblins.
Also maybe not much of a discussion, but in a little sample hand last night I played it out and went for a Diminishing returns off of a burning wish... It exiled my 3 other burning wishes and my mainboard Empty the warrens.... Which makes my deck actually do nothing lol. I really hope that damn card doesnt do that to me in a tourney setting...
Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Megadeus
I have never lost vs a large ETW on T1 against elves. They need the nutters to go off on T2 anyway. If you are on the play you basically just win with 12 goblins.
Also maybe not much of a discussion, but in a little sample hand last night I played it out and went for a Diminishing returns off of a burning wish... It exiled my 3 other burning wishes and my mainboard Empty the warrens.... Which makes my deck actually do nothing lol. I really hope that damn card doesnt do that to me in a tourney setting...
That's...pretty unlikely. I believe the math goes like this: (Assuming there's on average 55 cards in the 10 you're exiling - shouldn't make that much of a difference)
3 / 55 * 2 / 55 * 1 / 55 * 1 / 55 * P(10,4) = 6 * 5040 / 55^4 = 0.0033
or 0.3%.
That number makes intuitive sense, but I might have the math wrong.
Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Megadeus
I have never lost vs a large ETW on T1 against elves. They need the nutters to go off on T2 anyway. If you are on the play you basically just win with 12 goblins.
Also maybe not much of a discussion, but in a little sample hand last night I played it out and went for a Diminishing returns off of a burning wish... It exiled my 3 other burning wishes and my mainboard Empty the warrens.... Which makes my deck actually do nothing lol. I really hope that damn card doesnt do that to me in a tourney setting...
Kind of variance. That should not happen very often. It's more likely to kill ProsakANT with a turn one Extract on ToA. :tongue:
Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
Quote:
Originally Posted by
phazonmuant
That's...pretty unlikely. I believe the math goes like this: (Assuming there's on average 55 cards in the 10 you're exiling - shouldn't make that much of a difference)
3 / 55 * 2 / 55 * 1 / 55 * 1 / 55 * P(10,4) = 6 * 5040 / 55^4 = 0.0033
or 0.3%.
That number makes intuitive sense, but I might have the math wrong.
Lol. It isnt like I am going to cut the DReturns because of this, I just looked at the 10 cards and thought, "Can I win?"
Just a little hilarious thing that happened to me yesterday... I usually do tenish sample hands before I play an event just to make sure that I can count mana and storm properly... Dont wanna get rusty!
Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
Quote:
Originally Posted by
phazonmuant
That's...pretty unlikely. I believe the math goes like this: (Assuming there's on average 55 cards in the 10 you're exiling - shouldn't make that much of a difference)
3 / 55 * 2 / 55 * 1 / 55 * 1 / 55 * P(10,4) = 6 * 5040 / 55^4 = 0.0033
or 0.3%.
That number makes intuitive sense, but I might have the math wrong.
using 58 cards left (-1 for the wish to fetch, -1 for something else, such as a mox) the mentioned scenario happens with a p ~ 0,0005. that is 1 in 2000 cases. look into hypergeometrical distribution for the calculation.
Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
I'm considering taking this a legacy tournament after seeing master cook win SCG DC. Would people mind giving me advice on playing the deck? I'm a little bit nervous playing anything that isn't DnT. Sideboarding would be very lovely, as well as suggestions on keepable hands
Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
Quote:
Originally Posted by
phazonmuant
4x Leyline of Sanctity, so ... I typically board -1 Silence, -1 Infernal Tutor, -1 Empty the Warrens, -1 Gitaxian Probe for +2 Chain of Vapor, +2 Xantid Swarm.
Are up sure this is correct? It seems like keeping in ETW vs Leyline of Sanctity is a good idea... It also means that you can go off vs them with one less card. If you drop the ETW early enough, you should be fine.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
monovfox
I'm considering taking this a legacy tournament after seeing master cook win SCG DC. Would people mind giving me advice on playing the deck? I'm a little bit nervous playing anything that isn't DnT. Sideboarding would be very lovely, as well as suggestions on keepable hands
The opening post is up to date. You can check it out for sample hands, lines of play. It pretty much tells you everything you asked about. All of it is useful..
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Megadeus
I have never lost vs a large ETW on T1 against elves. They need the nutters to go off on T2 anyway. If you are on the play you basically just win with 12 goblins.
Also maybe not much of a discussion, but in a little sample hand last night I played it out and went for a Diminishing returns off of a burning wish... It exiled my 3 other burning wishes and my mainboard Empty the warrens.... Which makes my deck actually do nothing lol. I really hope that damn card doesnt do that to me in a tourney setting...
You win some, you lose some. I'd say Diminishing Returns has won me more than it has lost me, so I think it's worth it.
Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
Quote:
Originally Posted by
jin
The opening post is up to date. You can check it out for sample hands, lines of play. It pretty much tells you everything you asked about. All of it is useful..
You win some, you lose some. I'd say Diminishing Returns has won me more than it has lost me, so I think it's worth it.
Its been about 50/50 for me :/
When it is good it is great, but when it is bad it serves me 3+ lands. This deck hates me.
Also I wouldnt just break this deck out for an SCG Open. Id get a lot of testing in if I were you.
Also went 1-2 tonight. I beat 4 color Planeswalkers (Yay!!). Lost in the mirror to phazonmutant (lame) and BUG Delver.
The mirror was rough losing the die roll, and he drew more silences than me :/ Pretty sure I punted game 2 of the mirror. As it turns out, if the game goes past turn 1 on both sides skill kicks in! And then Game 3 against BUG I kept the following opener:
2x Chrome Mox
1x Silence
1x Lion's Eye Diamond
1x Burning Wish
2x Gitaxian Probe
1x Lotus Petal
My thoughts were that on the play all I need is for him to not have a force and one of my probes drawing a +1 or a land and I can empty for 12-16 dudes. I probe and see flusterstorm, daze, brainstorm and lands so I need to rip like a champ. I didnt :/
Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
Quote:
Originally Posted by
jin
Are up sure this is correct? It seems like keeping in ETW vs Leyline of Sanctity is a good idea... It also means that you can go off vs them with one less card. If you drop the ETW early enough...
This depends a lot on their mindset to either mulligan into Leyline or Focus on gett'n a decent hand which can win during the first 3 turns. Most of the S&T players I played against do the later. Therefore I side out EtW against them because it happend to be too slow once before for me (was an EtW for 8 tbh).
Conclusion: If they mulligan into Leyline you can still wish for EtW, if they don't open/mull for Leyline you have one less card in your deck that is a brick.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
monovfox
I'm considering taking this a legacy tournament after seeing master cook win SCG DC. Would people mind giving me advice on playing the deck? I'm a little bit nervous playing anything that isn't DnT. Sideboarding would be very lovely, as well as suggestions on keepable hands
Read the OP carefully, make notes, (may take a look at my play-by-play reports in my signature) and playtest for AT LEAST 2 months before taking this to a big tournament or I guara-damn-tee, you'll fail so hard that you will never ever touch the deck again and call it crap.
This deck needs a lot of experience about then to calculate the odds and go all-in or slow-roling for turns while dropping lands. Switching from DnT to TES is like entering Vintage after you played Modern before
Re: [Deck] T.E.S. - The EPIC Storm
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Lemnear
Looks barely playable. What was your second Probe draw and your draw for turn? This hand should still make it if you Slow-Roll after Probe, draw land, play land, go
Edit: Double Post ... sry
Well if I draw a land I can go land, chrome mox imprinting silence, petal LED burning wish Empty (Edit: Assuming I see that he doesnt have force). And if he had the force I could attempt to slow roll him and win. I drew a cabal therapy and a ponder i believe? Then I see a rite of flame, but at that point I had to burn the petal to cast ponder and at that point I couldnt fight through all of the counters he had.
Edit again. Oh shit I think I couldve wion that game. Goddamn Im an idiot. :mad:
