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I think Nether Void would be a better use of high value Legends cards if the goal is to keep cards in their hands towards Black Vice. I see lots of cards dealing with opponent's creatures, which makes it feel weak against combo and a number of other decks.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ralf
I think you should read Nether Void again.Quote:
Originally Posted by PirateKing
The problem is that it does not prevent your opponent from playing cards at all (unlike Trinisphere) and you want your opponent to keep cards in hand.
Nevertheless, you might be right about combo MU. The SB is maybe too much oriented about dealing with creature.
drown in sorrow is sweet and it would most likely be my sweeper of choice if toxic deluge wasn't a card, deluge also has applications against other decks, i once killed a griselbrand with it against reanimator(normally, he could've digged for a counter but the demon was needled)..and many times in my games, a large enough tarmagoyf would survive drown's -2/-2..further more, in todays meta where anglers and tasigurs are the rage, i feel safer with deluge because its a more catch-all card..Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Safety
jund is a tough match up for mono black pox since they have more answer to our threats than we have to theirs..cursed scroll(abrupt decay and Kolaghan's Command), liliana(abrupt decay and burn spells), mishra's factory(wasteland), nether spirit(Deathrite Shaman, Scavenging Ooze)..Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Safety
still, i would rather grind it with fair decks like JUND than be paired with any combo or control deck with DTT..
if i'm expecting a lotta JUND, i sometimes replace a scroll with a haunted platemail since its immune to abrupt decay and is beyond bolt range(though it till dies to kolloghans) and can sometimes go toe to toe with a goyf..against jund, i like perish since it can hit ALL of their creatures except for dark confidant..still, i think b/g loam pox is stronger against JUND than mono black pox..
if esper mentor's tokens giving you the fits, you might wanna consider dread of night, it also gives you game against death and taxes..
i usually have good game against esper mentor since I run 2 Night of Soul's Betrayal and a singleton engineered plague in the main..and another 2 copies of plague in the board..a resolved plague naming monk with an NoSB in play almost shuts down the deck..though they still have a jace to win with..
esper mentor is also very land light, so LD really hurts them..but i think the deck has really lost a lotta power after DTT got axed..
Black Vise + Contamination is like... mega intense. What's more, it ensures a very fast clock that's practically impossible to interact with. Ophiomancer works, but only without Night of Souls' Betrayal. Engineered Plague still pulls heavy weight and what's more, Ensnaring Bridge allows me to laugh at any creature (rare exceptions being 0 power creatures being buffed just before damage)
I've got to find a way to squeeze in Trinisphere, Sphere of Resistance, and the glue to hold it all together, the old school Dimir Machinations... :laugh:
I think I'll push Liliana to the Sideboard and bring her out vs. Combo. Or maybe not even since the Spheres make combo auto lose once resolved. Hymn is pushed out, whoever mentioned Encroach just added to my shopping list (and yes, that card sounds broken as hell vs. a mana denial specialty deck)
Go back by a page.Quote:
Originally Posted by OmniStrata
What is even better (aside the main denial purpose) with "encroach" is that you can even use it to protect some of your utility land.
Last night for example, I took out a wasteland my opponent was holding and I was able to win a game where I stalled long enough with my maze of ith against a tarmo + a delver.
Nonetheless, the card is dead sometimes.
Well time will tell if it is a staple or not.
Happy testing.
I'm aware they can still play cards, but if my opponent is just throwing away spells to avoid getting stung with Black Vice, that's a fine trade for me.Quote:
Originally Posted by Ralf
Just for laughs, assuming not a turn 1 combo killer opponent:
Turn 1: Dark Ritual, Black Vice x3 I choose you!
Turn 2: Sign in Blood, targeting you. Good Game? :cool:
One predicament I see is Pox is designed to deny all lands, all, creatures, and all hands. Black Vice, unlike the Rack, wants us to work against the 'deny hands' portion of Pox which also means we may need to kick out Liliana's sexy self. Though is the dis-synergy that 'unworkable'? Liliana's Ultimate still hits lands. I'm thinking Howling Mine or something crazy now... *facedesk*
Win Condition (8)
2 Nether Spirit
3 Black Vise
2 Chimeric Idol
1 Ophiomancer
Pox FX (11)
4 Innocent Blood
4 Smallpox
3 Pox
Disruption (12)
4 Wasteland
4 Encroach
4 Sinkhole
Support/Bomb (6)
1 Crucible of Worlds
1 Engineered Plague
1 Koskun Falls
3 Dimir Machinations
Land/Mana (23)
4 Dark Ritual
1 Maze of Ith
1 Buried Ruin
1 Cabal Pit
4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
12 Snow-Covered Swamp
Sideboard
2 Pithing Needle
4 Contamination
2 Ensnaring Bridge
3 Engineered Plague
2 Extirpate
2 Leyline of the Void
Ok, forget the Howling Mines idea. I've got some cards I need to buy to try out now. :laugh:
A deck playing Black Vise and Crucible of Worlds seems like a good deck to have Ghost Quarter in, as an addition to Wasteland that can kill their basics.
black vice and chalice and 3sphere and goblin welder and...
iow, there are better shells for it than pox. stax, DnT for example.
I keep forgetting that toxic deluge is a card. It is indeed better. I play a lot of modern and I can get my formats mixed up.Quote:
Originally Posted by zenitramleirdag
For my deck, I think I may be a little too committed to the combo. Four hexmage and four rotation means I have more dead draws if I can'tfinish the puzzle. I think I need to cut back to 3 of each and work in more redundancy. Also, has anyone tried Grisly Salvage in loam pox? I daresay it might be better than sylvan library due to the unfortunate library/deed interaction. It also digs 5 deep, which isn't insignificant even if it does cost 2 mana.
I figure one or two in your deck wouldn't hurt.
I tried Grisly, and if you are actually looking for creatures as well it might be it's better, but it's a long shot if you are digging for lands since you can't really afford to use that mana without commiting to the board.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Safety
Sylvan is looking at more cards after just 1 turn with a fetch and 3 without it, but I think even that is to slow for pox personally, but I'm also playing pernicious deed main which hates out my own card. Finally the biggest disadvantage is that it can miss (unlikely but pretty much lose after that) and if you are behind it can't find you an out in the same way a crop rotation for example.
The thing I've found is that there are two different faces to the same Pox coin. There are the 8rack decks that want their opponent's hand empty, to the point that Sinkhole, Wasteland and even Smallpox end up hindering their agenda by stunting their opponent's plays and leaving them with unplayable cards in hand. The more classic Pox decks on the other hand, don't much care if you have a hand full of business, as long an you can't act on any of it while a Mishra's Factory beats you down over 10 turns. If you're to take that to an extreme, you'd get the polar opposite of the 8rack decks, one where you're focus is on the lands and otherwise playability of your opponent's cards, things like Trinisphere and Wasteland and Sinkhole. While I agree with others that it might not be a Pox deck per se, more of a prison stax or even a Blood Moon style deck, any use of Black Vice should not look for the traditional balanced hate of Smallpox and decks built like it.Quote:
Originally Posted by OmniStrata
Tested a singleton today and one thing it doesn't get is crop rotation...and for that reason I think it isn't good enough. It was decent while ahead, not great while behind. Overall, mediocre and that doesn't cut it. I am going to put another pulse in its place.Quote:
Originally Posted by Toxboy
This was my list for today:
4x hexmage
1x eternal witness
1x shriekmaw
4x crop rotation
3x thoughtseize
3x inquisition of kozilek
1x ravens crime
4x smallpox
3x loam
3x abrupt decay
1x maelstrom pulse
1x pernicious deed
2x sylvan library
1x grisly salvage
4x verdant catacombs
1x marsh flats
1x bayou
2x overgrown tomb
1x woodland cemetery
4x wasteland
1x dark depths
1x thespians stage
1x volraths stronghold
1x cabal pit
2x swamp
1x forest
3x urborg
3x barren moor
Sideboard
3x golgari charm
2x pithing needle
2x deed
2x surgical extraction
1x bojuka bog
1x glacial chasm
1x grave titan
2x choke
1x darkblast
I liked the deck a lot, but I don't feel the need for ravens crime and 61 cards. I would play 61 but only for another land, probably maze if ith or a 4th barren moor. I don't have access to tabernacle, so that's not an option. I liked shriekmaw, or rather the idea of shriekmaw, but I will be cutting it. It has one huge weakness: it doesn't kill deathrite shaman. The witness was amazing however, that stays.
My thoughts are:
-1 grisly salvage
-1 shriekmaw
-1 ravens crime
-1 deed (main)
+ 1 maelstrom pulse
+2 disfigure/innocent blood
+1 maze/moor
I'll do the moor for now until I can get the maze, and I'm leaning towards disfigure for deathrite as opposed to blood.
As always, comments welcome.
I went 2-1, beat a green-based turbo eldrazi deck (no blue) and a modern mono-blue tron deck that someone brought to a legacy event. Loam/waste lock was brutal against both. I lost to a nic-fit variant that played a bunch of planeswalkers and grave titans.
Has anyone tried Garruk Relentless before? Seems decent, similar to worm harvest but not grave dependent.
I've tried garruk before and he's a fine alternative win condition since he doesn't die to grave hate. Oddly enough I say he's bad? vs Miracles, but he's not really. If a Miracle player knows what they are doing he's probably winning through a garruk pretty easily, but if he's unclear what your deck is doing he will probably lose in a short fashion to the army you are making.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Safety
The biggest problem is that he almost solves alot of problems, he doesn't quite handle alot of threats optimally since he merely chumps anglers and goyf and will die if he kills clique or flipped delvers.
Though I love him in general and will probably start playing one since the ban of DTT, I believe he may be better in your deck since you don't mainly try to build and army but can also find relevant creatures with him.
I think you're confusing relentless with primal Hunter. I'm talking about the flip one from innistrad that deals 3 damage to a creature then flips if loyalty less than 3, makes 2/2 wolves every turn, or when flips makes 1/1 deathtouch wolves and -1 search up a creature.. He only needs 3G to be cast, primal hunter needs a whopping 2GGG to cast. It isn't realistic, even eternal witness is a stretch sometimes.
We're talking about the same oneQuote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Safety
My deck can only use the 0 on his first side and I have no use what so ever (almost for his) -1 and ultimate on the flip side since I play at most 2 creatures in my deck.
Also he dies to killing clique and delver alot.
He also basically cost 5 mana vs DnT since they usually have Thalia or Wingmare in play.
The building an army part mainly refers to making 2/2 creatures
Gotcha
Edit: how about Garruk Wildspeaker? The mana boost is relevent when wanting to loam and do other stuff the same turn. Untapping and playing smallpox seems good.