[Deck] Canadian Threshold (aka RUG Delver, Tempo Thresh)

I dont understand that boarding-plan against the other Delver-Decks. If you want to bring in the 3 Nemesis and win the "late-game" i think you need Stifle to protect your Manabase. Otherwise i see me get tempoed out to death with 2 Nemesis in hand. Or did i miss anything?

Another point is that i like brining in Winterorbs against D/T. But i think its a little ambitous, then you have to make sure that they dont have vial. Do you think 3 Decays and 4 Forces are enough for that?

Would be good if you can explain that because i just dont get it :D

I think you either keep Stifles or Deathrites in the Delver mirror. Currently leaning Deathrite, but part of that is wanting to see how it plays out. Leaving only Delver as a target for removal spells also stinks a little. Also think 3 True-Name 2 Truths is more reasonable with Deathrite than Stifle - casting them turn two on the play is nuts.

I agree on Orbs vs. D&T, just not sure how well this deck can pull it off. If there's somehow room for a Null Rod, I'm down for it, probably cutting Truths.

Edit: I should point out that I was so unsure about my boarding vs. D&T that I had to check if I even gave an actual plan and not just suggestions.

Deathrite enables sequences that are insane tempo, so I disagree with the notion that it's somehow working against the deck's main plan. That's going back to the initial spoiler season when the card was being mis-evaluated as a midrange-only component. He's a 1-mana Planeswalker, and the only creature that approaches the level of utility that he has is Mother of Runes, which only works ideally in a particular type of deck.

How are the following examples not tempo-positive plays?
-Turn 1 Sea; Deathrite
-Daze their Turn 1 play
-Turn 2 Wasteland their land; have mana up via Deathrite for a 1-drop, e.g. Stifle

Alternatively:
-Turn 1 Sea; Deathrite
-Opponent does thing
-Turn 2 Play 2nd Land; 2-drop followed by 1-drop, with Daze potential

Another thing that you don't have to agonize over is whether to deploy a threat/cantrip or leave mana open for Stifle/Spell Pierce/etc. With a land + DRS you can do both. Playing RUG, this sort of choice can often mean the difference between winning and losing -- why even force yourself to make that kind of decision if it can be cleanly sidestepped with DRS?

etc.

His ability to create chip damage through a stalled board state is incredibly useful. 2 damage at a time might seem negligible, but it accumulates quickly, and it's typical that DRS can do more damage (not to mention potential disruption) by the time Mongoose even reaches Threshold, and that's assuming there aren't any ground blockers. 3/3 isn't exactly huge in Legacy anymore. (Anecdotally, I'd say that the majority of my games playing Team America are won via DRS damage in top-deck mode, but that's also largely a function of how the deck plays out with Hymn to Tourach.)

Against any decks where you'd be throwing Bolts at the opponent's face and/or planeswalkers, you'd generally be siding removal out anyways, so I don't think the advantage of Bolt over Push is relevant outside of Game 1 scenarios.

Also there's the relevant factor that DRS provides disruption against the occasional graveyard-centric deck.

I think there's justification for a Stifle/Goose deck in a particular metagame (e.g. lots of RG Lands and/or Loam -- Goose is admittedly *great* against Maze of Ith and Punishing Fire), but it should still start with 4x Deathrite Shaman in the maindeck to be optimized.

I'm kind of unimpressed with Mongoose's shroud, as the majority of control decks tend to run sweeper effects (Terminus etc.). Without Thought Scour, he's often too slow to present a relevant clock before a control opponent can answer him. The other issue is stuff that just blocks him, often without even trading: True-Name Nemesis, Baleful Strix (yes it dies, but they got +1 card with its ETB effect), and of course Tarmogoyf -- which btw is still one of the BEST cards in a tempo mirror; Gurmag Angler and Tombstalker. I think if we really want that sort of creature, True-Name Nemesis, despite the extra mana cost is a better consideration. Mainly because it's evasive, is an unkillable wall, ignores stuff like Relic or RiP, and is Blue to pitch to FoW.

This is all particularly more true if Red is being dropped in favor of Black, meaning that aside from the rare double Delver nut draws, games are going to tend to go longer, especially without time-walking with multiple Lightning Bolts.

So that all said, a BUG Thresh list (i.e. running Stifle) should consider re-configuring its threat mix to adapt to the realities of the current Legacy metagame. My suggestion:

4 DRS
4 Delver
0-4 Tarmogoyf
0-4 TNN
0-1 Tombstalker/Gurmag Angler

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Jonathan Alexander

So I got to try out Dark Thresh today.


List:

//Creature
3 Deathrite Shaman
4 Delver of Secrets
4 Nimble Mongoose

//Instant
2 Abrupt Decay
4 Brainstorm
1 Counterspell
4 Daze
1 Dismember
3 Fatal Push
4 Force of Will
2 Spell Snare
4 Stifle

//Land
4 Polluted Delta
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
4 Wasteland

//Sorcery
2 Painful Truths
4 Ponder

//Sideboard
SB: 2 Winter Orb
SB: 1 Deathrite Shaman
SB: 3 True-Name Nemesis
SB: 2 Dread of Night
SB: 1 Abrupt Decay
SB: 1 Dismember
SB: 1 Spell Pierce
SB: 1 Surgical Extraction
SB: 3 Duress

I got weird matchups, so take everything with a grain of salt.

-Deathrite vs. Goyf is not a huge difference, especially with Fatal Push in the format.

-Mongoose is better than Goyf for sure.

-The deck's creature base is really flexible and smooth, which is cool. You can reasonably go down to seven creatures against removal heavy decks. Boarding out Mongooses entirely is totally fine as well, leaving you with 11 evasive threats.

-I don't think I've killed a single creature with Push that would not have died to Bolt.

-I did not get to play against combo, but having discard against Miracles is cool.

-Not having Pyroblast stinks. I don't think Decays do enough to remedy this. I would not mind an extra piece of countermagic, maybe a second Counterspell.

-Dread of Night is sweet, but I'm not sure how good it is vs. Mentor yet.

-I kinda want to draw Orb more often.

-Painful Truths is still amazing. I got to draw three turn two on the play with Daze & Force backup once, that was sick.

-I don't think I'm opposed to another land or maybe Life from the Loam. I considered my typical Loam + Ghost Quarter package, but I dismissed it to include both discard and Dread of Night.

-The removal split seems correct given the colour limitations.

Overall, I often felt I was playing a worse version of Canadian, but there is merit to playing this list. I think this deck beats at least the other three-colour Delver decks, and it's probably the best version against UR as well.

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but go back to your first list of canadian ******** ? with one underground sea for the mono painful ?? 3 shaman, 3 delver and 4 nimble mongoose is not enough in this meta full of remouval and big creatures ...

In theory, I agree with your points wcm8. But in practice so far DRS has been really underwhelming. I'm as surprised as anyone else would be. As I've mentioned in a post on the last page, the asynergy between him and Mongoose has been more relevant than I'd expected. But the main point of relevance has been having to play out a third land to let him clock the opponent to keep up two pieces of disruption. If you just have two lands out, activating him can give the opponent a window to resolve spells.

I ran the following list through a league just now. The sideboard has some tension and needs tweaking, but I was a bit impatient to start the league as I've not had the chance to play in a little while.

4 Delver of Secrets
4 Nimble Mongoose
2 Deathrite Shaman
1 True-Name Nemesis

4 Ponder

4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Force of Will
4 Stifle
3 Fatal Push
2 Spell Pierce
2 Spell Snare
2 Abrupt Decay
1 Counterspell
1 Dismember

4 Wasteland
3 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
8 fetch

SB//
2 Flusterstorm
2 Surgical Extraction
2 Dread of Night
1 Fatal Push
2 True-Name Nemesis
1 Abrupt Decay
1 Null Rod
2 Winter Orb
2 Painful Truths

2-0 vs Miracles

+2 Flusterstorm
+1 Abrupt Decay
+2 True-Name Nemesis
+1 Null Rod
+2 Winter Orb
+2 Painful Truths

-4 Delver of Secrets
-2 Deathrite Shaman
-3 Fatal Push
-1 Dismember

2-0 vs Burn

+2 Flusterstorm
+1 Fatal Push
+2 True-Name Nemesis

-1 Dismember
-4 Stifle

2-0 vs Shardless

+1 Fatal Push
+2 Winter Orb
+2 Painful Truths

-2 Spell Pierce
-2 Force of Will
-1 Daze

0-2 vs Elves (this feels impossible unless we dedicate some SB slots to it)

+2 Flusterstorm
+1 Fatal Push
+1 Abrupt Decay

-2 Daze
-2 Spell Pierce

Maybe this is incorrect?

2-1 vs Sneak and Show

+2 Flusterstorm
+2 Surgical Extraction
+1 True-Name Nemesis

-2 Fatal Push
-1 Dismember
-2 Spell Snare

Some good discussion here.

@Gloubi, this is really much more in line with what Canadian Threshold wants to be doing. If anything, Delver decks really shouldn't be defined by their colours and more so their game plan. The Team America thread has always largely focussed on tap-out Hymn variants. The Canadian Threshold has always focused on Stifle/Wasteland/Goose decks, and this certainly falls into that camp. Philosophy wise, this is not Team America. This is Tempo Thresh.

@wcm8 and Whitefaces, I kind of agree with... Both of you? Certainly, there is tension between DRS and Goose, but I haven't found it too difficult to conserve my GY at seven. Furthermore, if your DRS is alive in the first few turns, you tend to be winning a lot of those games anyway, exactly for the reason that wcm8 mentioned - you get to go really tempo-crazy with an active DRS out on Birds of Paradise mode. Your Dazes become incredible, as does your ability to hold up soft counters. I'll agree that the drain effect is less impressive in a deck such as this that is very mana-tight though.

@wcm8, I'm not sure why Mongoose feels underwhelming for you - I think it's in a great place in the metagame. Low amounts of Eldrazi, where Goose would be a liability, along with more Decays flying around make him very well positioned. I can understand the sentiment that more TNN may just be more useful, but having a threat that is easy to deploy and synergises with one-mana counters is very important. We start to move into an incredibly midrangey, tap-out direction if we add too many bomby cards - might as well play TA. This is fine post-board, but g1 I'm sure we'd prefer to execute our streamlined tempo gameplan. If anything, if you're out on Mongoose I could see the threat suite incorporating Anglers and TNN instead of Goyfs, but these are all very slow to deploy cards compared to Goose which is a feasible play at multiple stages in the game.

@JonLX the D&T matchup I am also iffy on. I agree that Orb can be insane when you can capitalise on their clunky curve, as long as you shut down Vial. I generally swap Daze/Force for play or draw. When on the play, Daze Vial into Snare Thalia etc. is back-breaking, as has been the case in RUG. That being said, we are super cold to Mirran Crusader with this list, other than TNN.

Vs. D&T I board
-4 Goose
-4 Daze otd, -4 Force otp
+2 Winter Orb
+1 Abrupt Decay
+1 True-Name Nemesis
+1 Painful Truths
+1 Pithing Needle
+2 Marsh Casualties

Also, if anyone hasn't read it, my list + some info on Dark Thresh is up here:
https://www.mtggoldfish.com/articles...k-tempo-thresh

Thanks everyone as always for their thoughts and contributions, certainly helped in the article writing. :)

Any help in boarding plan against Turbo Depths?
Running Jonathan 75(MD: -1Orb +1Lavamancer(still not sure on this slot) SB: -1Surgical +1Grafdiggers Cage)

I'm putting together a BUG tempodeck and felt this forum to be the correct one: I'm playing Stifle and no discard.

List
8 blue fetches
4 BS, ponder, FOW, Daze, delver, pushes, wastelands, stifles
3 trops, ugs, spell pierce
2 decay
1 winter orb (main!)
Then theres 8 creature-slots left
I'm thinking 3-4 shamans
2 anglers OR 2 bob
2 snapcasters or 2 gooses
0-1 TNN
I'm not buying into goyfs right now

SB will be 2 more decay, 2 more winter orb, and normal stuff

I'd be happy for feedback on the list overall and advice on the creatures



Skickat från min iPhone med Tapatalk

hi guys

Ran a bunch of matches with the dark thresh list a few weeks ago to something like a 75+ % match win rate (before push). Was pretty intense. Almost made me wonder if we should have been playing this before push, but just never discovered it

A few notes

1) Main reasons to play it over rug are
a) Access to painfull truths which is insane in the deck
b) Ability to gun down tarmogoyfs so they don't brickwall mongoose

Without truths it pretty quickly degenerates into a worse version of rug. Killing tarmogoyf is nice, but bolts have upsides that are definitely also signifant

2) Miracle matchup
a) Practically a bye if you play mongoose, 2 truths main and 2 orb board. Was 9-1 in matches against it with the games I lost being manascrew.
b) Also extremely good with jonathans version of Canadian where pyroblast does the same as decay=> Kindda the same for me

3) Deathrite mirrors (incl. shardless)
a) Most of my losses were in these matchups. Felt like 50/50 matchups. Some number of these were driven by dismember making me loose races, so it might be that push + switching to toxic from gg charm solves this somewhat
b) Lost some games to shardless where it would go long, and my mongooses would be brickwalled by tons of 2/2s... Very awkward

4) The joy of the 6 shroud creastueres
- Super sweet to play long shroud control games against any sort of nonsense with removal. Whenever my opponent plays jund/stoneblade/4c loam etc. I just board out all my deathrites and pitch delvers to fow and watch them clutch all their removal :-) Such beauty. Particularly when we can now kill all their goyfs/knights easily

I am sort of wondering if the matchup against miracles is so good, that we can afford to dump the mongooses to play hooters instead, which are much better for deathrite mirrors.0

My list is below for reference. Quite happy with the 75 including the sideboard, except for the weakness in deathrite mirrors mentioned above. could switch a decay and a fatal push between main and board.

4 Force of Will
4 Fatal Push
4 Brainstorm
4 Daze
4 Wasteland
4 Verdant Catacombs
3 Underground Sea
4 Polluted Delta
4 Ponder
3 Tropical Island
4 Stifle
1 Counterspell
4 Nimble Mongoose
4 Delver of Secrets
2 Spell Snare
3 Deathrite Shaman
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Painful Truths

3 Surgical Extraction
2 Winter Orb
2 Invasive Surgery
1 Abrupt Decay
2 True-Name Nemesis
2 Toxic Deluge
1 Spell Pierce
2 Diabolic Edict

Sorry, after writing my article, I'm a little worn out on writing, so I'm not gonna participate in the discussion right. However:

#theweeklywars #17 – An Elf, a Human and a Mongoose walk into a bar…

Hope this is helpful.

Going back to traditional RUG here's my current list, since everyone seems to be on the JonLx train I'll go over my reasoning for my changes.

Creatures (12)
4 Delver
4 Mongoose
4 Goyf

Lands (18)
3 Trops
3 Volcs
8 Fetches
4 wasteland

Cantrips (8)
4 Ponder
4 Brainstorm

Counters (16)
4 Force of Will
4 Daze
4 Stifle
2 Spell Pierce
2 Spell Snare

Removal (6)
4 Lightning Bolt
2 Dismember

Sideboard
3 Pyroblast
2 Winter Orb
2 Ancient Grudge
2 Rough // Tumble
2 True-Name
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Spell Pierce
1 Seal of Fire
1 Sylvan Library

So the Differences Main are

Spell Snare -> Spell Pierce

I really like Snare, I just don't like the third very targeted counter-magic over a more general one that usually will be close to as good, This is unlikely to be very controversial though so moving on

Winter Orb -> Goyf

I felt JonLx's list gave up too much ground to other matchups for miracles. I've been a huge fan of 4 goyf for quite a while, In my opinion and based on my assessment of matchups where goyf is good vs winter orb is good, goyf is more likely to be good, than winter orb, but this swap can more easily be understood as swapping the SB goyf and the MD orb, because that's how it started out.

Counterspell -> Goyf

Drawing off of the previous change, I feel goyf is very important in many matchups, and some from my experience come down almost entirely to being able to keep a goyf in play or playing as many as possible (Delver mirrors, Eldrazi etc.) Because of this, I cut the counterspell to allow me to be able to have the maximum number of huge ground bodies. In addition it was very rare that I would feel like I was running too little countermagic, and additional threats were usually welcome.

On to the sideboard

Cage -> Surgical

I want to be able to cantrip into my gravehate on turn 1, in addition I needed an extra card to bring in vs miracles due to the extra goyf. Likely not controversial so moving on.

Winter Orb -> Sylvan Library

In testing matchups where all three orbs come in (read miracles), I would have an issue where my orbs would start to clutter my hand, my solution became to replace on with a library. The argument being if you draw orb and then find the library, you're quite happy and if both resolve your win rate is probably over 90%. If however you draw library first, it will help you find a winter orb. I have never had an issue finding an orb in a game where I found library.

The counter argument I hear most often for this is it turns on both halves of wear // tear , my rebuttal is if you have an orb and a library, the game very rapidly gets out of control for miracles and after ~2 library triggers I don't think you should be able to lose that game. It helps you recover extremely quickly from counter wars, as well as providing filtering, while I'm sure everyone here knows the power of library vs miracles the combination of orb and library is so much better than the sum of the parts.

2x Submerge -> 2x Rough // Tumble

I was really confused about the 0 rough 2 submerge in JonLx's list, and this is the thing i most want peoples opinion on, there are very few matchups where I feel I want submerge, and rough isn't as good. (primarily BUG decks and lands). However there are many matchups where rough is absolutely absurd and submerge is just good or even unplayable (Elves, D&T, grixis, TES and to a lesser extent other storm)

Anyway, I'd like people's opinion on these even if you tell me I'm insane, as long as you explain why you think so I'll be happy.

I've been playing the BUG version a lot in leagues online the past week, mostly to frustrating 4-1 finishes (lost the last round twice).

A few thoughts

Counterspell has been surprisingly bad, mostly due to clunkiness. Obviously it's solid vs Miracles but we don't need a lot of help there. Lots of BUG midrange decks are playing some number of Daze which is awkward. I feel like in theory it's alright, but in practice doesn't play well in the deck.

I've been playing with two DRS main, still on the fence if a third would be good but I never like drawing more than one.

Truths has been solid. I was very skeptical at first because of the nature of the deck, a 3cmc sorcery seemed weird. But you can create decent spots to cast it easier than I thought.

The SB plan for Miracles Jonathan has suggested is amazing, I've only lost to the deck twice (one was just a friendly vs a friend).

The removal suite of 3/2/1 push/decay/dismember has felt great, really happy with that. Push has been exceptional, if you're expecting a lot of creature decks in your meta I'd play a fourth.

I've tried Marsh Casualties for a bit in the SB, the BB is really awkward so going to cut that. I want to try some number of Submerge, especially since BUG is being played more than Grixis at the moment. Not sure how I feel about Deluge, Goddik, how has it been for you?

Storm has been seeing quite the resurgence, with that plus Miracles and DnT being big I don't hate the idea of a second Null Rod.

Pretty certain I'm going to play the deck at the Paris Eternal Weekend in March.

So going forward I'll try

4 Delver of Secrets
4 Nimble Mongoose
2 Deathrite Shaman

4 Ponder
2 Painful Truths

4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Stifle
4 Daze
3 Fatal Push
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Spell Pierce
2 Spell Snare
1 Dismember

3 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
4 Wasteland
2 Scalding Tarn
2 Verdant Catacombs
2 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta

SB:
2 Winter Orb
1 Flusterstorm
1 Invasive Surgery
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Grafdigger's Cage or second Surgical
1 Abrupt Decay
2 Dread of Night
1 Null Rod
2 Sumberge
3 True-Name Nemesis

@Whitefaces and Goddik:

How is the D&T MU with your lists? Traditionell BUG Delver already had problems against this Deck and I wonder if it isnt getting even worse without Tarmo / Tombstalker / Hymn.
Is Push in the Maindeck and TNN / DoN / Toxic Deluge / Null Rod in your Sideboards enough to compensate for this?? I really like the deck and want to test it, but besides Miracles, Delver and S&T I have a lot of D&T in my local Metagame.

I always really liked the D&T matchup with Goddik's Team America lists. Of course, we had Jace and four sweepers, but if you're worried about D&T specifically, you can always run Dread of Night, as I did in my initial Dark Thresh list. Jace over Painful Truths is something I want to try out anyway.

D^T hasn't been great with list, used to be able to play a control game with TA with jace and infi sweepers, but I am a bit reluctant to go there on 18 lands. I have wondered if I should just have an extra land, a loam and a pair of jaces in the board and do it anyway.

Deluge is mostly theory. I love it in TA, as it can sweep deathrites, stoneforges and all manner of nastiness that gg charm just doesn't get. Not certain enough that it shouldn't be gg charm, but it certainly is more flexible

Really hate dread of night. Such a narrow card. Would rather play more real sweepers and get elves, goblins or whatever else the random kids turn up with

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Goddik

elves, goblins or whatever else the random kids turn up with

---

Such an old man quote haha

Quote:

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Originally Posted by Whitefaces

I've been playing the BUG version a lot in leagues online the past week, mostly to frustrating 4-1 finishes (lost the last round twice).

4 Delver of Secrets
4 Nimble Mongoose
2 Deathrite Shaman

4 Ponder
2 Painful Truths

4 Brainstorm
4 Force of Will
4 Stifle
4 Daze
3 Fatal Push
2 Abrupt Decay
2 Spell Pierce
2 Spell Snare
1 Dismember

3 Tropical Island
3 Underground Sea
4 Wasteland
2 Scalding Tarn
2 Verdant Catacombs
2 Flooded Strand
2 Polluted Delta

SB:
2 Winter Orb
1 Flusterstorm
1 Invasive Surgery
1 Surgical Extraction
1 Grafdigger's Cage or second Surgical
1 Abrupt Decay
2 Dread of Night
1 Null Rod
2 Sumberge
3 True-Name Nemesis

---

I really like this list. It seems to have the same idea of a Grixis list I run that has alot in common with the standardized RUG-lists;
4 Delver
4 Shaman
3 Angler
1 Clique
4 Stifle
4 Daze
4 FoW
4 BS
4 Ponder
4 Bolt
6 Flex that are at the moment: 2 Probe/ 2 Pierce/ 1 Push/ 1 Divert (divert is experimental, used to be in side)
18 lands: 6 duals/ 8 fetch/ 4 waste

Compairing your list with most tempo-based decks (including mine) I wonder if you don't miss having 12 creatures. Every time I go to 10 or 11 it feels that I lack threads on the field.
Also you mentioned that the Truths are doing really good. Can you see these being replaced for Probes (blue for pitch, ging free information and a card in the grave)?

I have some content on my Delverless-Canadian list that I played in the February Legacy Challenge:

#theweeklywars #18 — February Legacy Challenge

Thanks for sharing your videos and tech. I agree with the idea that Aggro-Control decks need to be willing to slay their 'sacred cows' in order to properly evolve with meta-game shifts, and in this case Delver of Secrets deserves reconsideration. I like the approach of 'next-leveling' RUG by only playing creatures that dodge the majority of commonly-played removal. As you pointed out, an advantage of this approach is that you don't need to play nearly as many threats, and can instead run additional control elements. Against decks that run sweepers (e.g. UWr Miracles), you have Winter Orb to ruin their day.

I've done a similar thing with re-configuring my BUG list, cutting Delver entirely and modifying the threat mix to better attack the format. However, I diverge a bit in terms of card choices, as the lack of Lightning Bolt demands that there be more creatures available to end the game.

Good luck with the continued evolution of the archetype!

How has Mandrill's been working out (Especially in a list with 5 threshold cards)?