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Playtesting this deck too. Compared to Ali's list, I didQuote:
Originally Posted by Vicar in a tutu
-1 fetch
+1 Mishra
-3 Hex/DD/Stronghold (only used it once against a mirror..)
+2 Pulse
+1 The Abyss
And my SB looks like
1 Syphon Life
2 Krosan Grip
2 Infest
3 Choke
3 Pernicious Deed
4 Extirpate
Kinda satisfied with the deck at the moment.
I definitely prefer Scroll to Harvest which needs a big set up with this deck, loam is not the primary engine.
I managed to beat burn on MWS last week with a loam/syphon cycle each turn.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vicar in a tutu
I agree they do not work well together but I find Tabernacle really good. Especially when people forget to pay and have to sac all there creatures. :tongue:Quote:
Originally Posted by Vicar in a tutu
I did not actively play legacy for quite some time, but when I did I liked to play loampox a lot. I did tinker with various splashes, I never tested Liliana of the Veil though, so I have no idea of her impact on the deck.Quote:
Originally Posted by Vicar in a tutu
If you can find the room to splash red, you could play burning wish over entomb, wich is in many ways superior. It makes the deck more reliable against GY hate, moves situational cards like syphon life to the SB, gives general access to your SB and has no card disadvantage. You could place Devastating Dreams there (the ideal loam-pox card if you're sure your opponent has no counterspell) and with 3 swamps you won't make your deck much more vulnerable to Wasteland. If you do that you should consider mox diamond.
Nether Spirit proved to be a bad card for me. He usually gets the StoP rotting in your opponent's hand.
In my playtests syphon life was too slow against decent burn decks. I did cut it completely.
4 Urborg? Does seem quite a lot to me, do you never draw into multiples? I mean pox has a lot of opportunities to rid dead cards but 4 seems a little to much, maybe 3?
Why is anyone having an issue with burn? They will be in top deck mode by turn 3 maybe 4 even if we do nothing. with our help they are there faster and they have 0 card draw. They also have a weak mana-base. you blow up 2 mountains and they have a serious problem. granted, they can hit for 3 damage a card with 12 cards in the deck, but once they are in top deck mode its on you to have a way to kill them, and you should.
I believe that people are having issues with Burn because that archetype is able to deal damage very quickly and efficiently, not to mention that Pox Decks normally have a tendency to sacrifice life for card advantage. Even at top-deck mode (and, as you've noted, this is very likely to happen), Burn is still likely to be more efficient in dealing damage when compared to the means that Pox Decks have to assert aggression. I guess that it might boil down to that - kill your opponent before he can recover. Unfortunately, it doesn't take much for Burn to be able to recover.Quote:
Originally Posted by RogueBuild
Kind Regards,
jares
the fundamental problem with Pox, which is the reason that after 15 years of playing Pox, I switched to Burn is this.
Pox's whole agenda is to get the each player into top deck mode. There is nothing fundamentally wrong with the way it does, no deck in the Meta can get each player into top deck mode quicker and efficiently.
The problem is, Pox sucks in top deck mode.
Burn could possibly not care any less about creature removal. Burn doesnt care about land removal. Burn needs one land, one land and a cloud of dust. Most Burn players get pissed off when they draw into 4 lands. I do. I hate it. And just because they run 17-19 lands does not mean that the mana base is weak.
to be honest, the new Pox decks have a stupid mana base, just because you run 19-21 lands doesnt mean its strong. Actually the amount has nothing to do with it.
Pox runs a bunch of Bull crap it does not need. People continue to run the mana base because the kid who first placed with it did, and no one wants to change anything.
Burn's mana base is the best in Magic. 17 Mountains 2 Barbarian Rings. I only run 17 Mountains, never ever have mana problems, as a matter of fact, the first time I ever only drew one mountain, was last night and I was still able to beat a good Merfolk deck. And this is the thought process with all Pox players, they want to blow up basic lands. If you have a Sink Hole, fine, it is a card you draw and you might as well play it.
But if it is a Small Pox, it would be stupid to cast it against a Burn player. You are getting rid of a land of your own, you are not making the Burn player think about his land, it is a simple kicking of a Mountain. Against other decks, it is different, you can mess with a Zoo or Maverick player by making them sacrifice a land card. The same cannot be done to Burn. Now that you have made us toss a land card into the graveyard, you have done the same to yourself, and you manabase is way more unstable than ours. Burn is designed to not need or have very many creatures on the board at once, so again your removal is pointless, we do not care.
as for cards in our hands, all of Pox's discard is sorcery speed, and after turn three, yous said it, we are in top deck mode, with a deck full of one drops. you discard is pointless after turn three.
Pox, is an awesome matchup for me. I hate playing it though, while it usually is an auto win, I really miss the deck. But Burn is so better.
Although I find it funny, with Pox, it was almost an auto win when I played against any combo, Belcher- TES- SOlidarity- With Burn it is almost an auto loss.
against Delver-stoneforge decks, I had a terrible time with Pox, and while playing BUrn they are my easiest matches.
I have to agree that Smallpox (and Classic Pox) decks are horrible at topdeck mode, so they lose that X-factor of becoming a Deck to Beat.
In other news, did anyone in this thread check out Reid Duke's article on SCG? It has his newest Smallpox deck. I don't have premium but I saw the list. He bumped his Nether Voids to 2, which I think is cool.
He stills runs freakin' Black Leylines, though. Has no one tested Grafdigger's Cage? I never got to test teh card because I stopped playing my Meat Grinder list, but I'm pretty sure that card is needed in the sb. Like four of them.
diggers Cage, is kind of junk, not junk, just not as useful. Artifacts are easy to deal with, Enchantments are not as much.
Cage has a small casting cost, which makes it easy to destroy, also, it is not an end all to hold off your opponent. They can still set up, until they get an answer for it.
With Blackvoid, or Torcrypt, or Relic of progenitus, you sweep their threats out of the graveyard all together.
Sure, but the reason I'm suggesting Cage is its splash damage against other archetypes besides Dredge. It stops both GSZ and Snap Mage.Quote:
Originally Posted by iamfrightenedtoo
And of course, Cage isn't be-all end-all, but with 2-3 Extirpate as supplementary graveyard hate, I think Dredge can be containable.
4 Smallpox
4 Innocent Blood
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Sinkhole
3 Life from the Loam
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Pox
4 Liliana of the Veil
7 Swamp
3 Wasteland
4 Mishra's Factory
3 Bayou
3 Verdant Catacombs
1 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
2 Cabal Pit
1 Nether Spirit
1 The Abyss
3 The Rack
3 Mox Diamond
SB: 3 Black Sun's Zenith
SB: 2 Krosan Grip
SB: 4 Leyline of the Void
SB: 3 Choke
SB: 3 Pithing Needle
Any suggestions on the deck. I have so much problems against weeny decks with equipments.
Try running Deed? It's kinda nonbo with Diamonds and The Rack, but it at least handles your weenie problems. Have you looked at Aintrazi's list?
4 Innocent Blood is way too much. You need more diversity in your removal. I'd cut the 4th Blood or a 2nd Pit for a Maze of Ith.
I actually never see innocent blood for me to actually use. I'll keep it at 4 in the meantime.
My problem is the 2 pox and 3 racks. I'm not really a fan of either, but i don't know what else to use. I am also not a fan of cursed scroll
Really? I hope this isn't big news to anyone because it has been said by a bunch of us over the 1st 106 pages of this thread. And a few of us have talked about various ways to fix that. The reason Burn should be easier is they have no way to fix being in top deck mode. What are they going to do? Browbeat? even if they played it they shouldnt be able to hit 3 lands. Top? Still only 1 card a turn, takes a mana to use, and you should be able to keep them from using it and casting in the same turn.Quote:
Originally Posted by iamfrightenedtoo
Yes, Burn only needs 1 mountain, but they do need it and with less then 1/3 of the deck being land if you can get them to 0 lands after turn 2 you should have the edge.
I have played a lot of Pox over the years and I have played even more Burn. If I was sitting down to a table to play 1 Vs the other, I'll take my Pox against your Burn over my Burn against your Pox. But of course, I do run CotV inmy Pox SB and I doubt your Burn deck has an answer. My Burn deck does.
Again, I would suggest adding red for burning wish. It gives acess to loam, devastating dreams and firespout (see my post above). I think extirpate is superior to leyline for GY hate. You can use it on different occasions against control decks, and it completely destroys mana bases like canadian thresh's.Quote:
Originally Posted by Avatar of Shadow
@Avatar of...
I would advice get rid either of the green component of your deck, or the pox cards.
If you run green you are really playing control, and then pox and smallpox hurts you.
Against weenies there is always Massacre if the opponents play any plains.
After having playtested several configurations I have come to understand why Iamfrightenedtoo like Bump in the night. In short, pox only works well as pox deck if you play pox like mad (4 pox is a must. Smallpox not neccessarily so.). You DO race your opponent. Using Pox, racks and Hymns you opponent can soon be very low on life. A finisher may be just what you need then.
A good sequence of play is: The Rack, Sinkhole, wasteland + hymn, Pox, smallpox and liliana to lock the opponent.
If you play like one pox and some smallpox you are just playing black control with some pox effects. You will feel hampered by smallpox anytime you draw it really.
Better to play BG control with pernicious deed instead of pox/smallpox.
I am not completely happy with pure pox, however. Because of the top deck problem I have pondered the idea of replacing card drawing with a higher quality of the cards.
This means cards like wasteland may have to be scrapped. They are just one for one, where Sinkhole at least give you tempo.
Of course, a pure pox get better in some match-ups, and worse in others. I have noticed that discard, like in Team America, hurts.
This deck is not optimized for for better top deck as described above, but it is one of the better i have tested.
1 Nether Spirit
4 Bloodghast
4 Tombstalker
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Smallpox
4 Sinkhole
4 Pox
3 Funeral Charm
4 Liliana of the Veil
4 The Rack
4 Wasteland
15 Swamp
3 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
3 Mishra’s Factory
I see a lot of decklists run Worm Harvest, has anyone considered dropping this and going back to the 3 mana max base that Pox was originally designed around. I play BG Pox still and it is a rare occasion that I will ever have more than 3 lands in play. I usually hold the other lands to pitch as needed.
Someone mentioned manabase versus burn earlier. I do agree that most Pox decks have issues with burn because of burns top deck ability and manabase but not all Pox lists are playing full techlands. One to note is mono-black Pox once again in my opinion should run Swamps and at most 4 Wastelands or Rishadan Ports.
Why the other Pox threads were removed also baffles me. Mono-black, BW and BG Pox are all different from one another in how they go about applying attrition. Clark Kant is an idiot as well, he claimed to create BW Pox some years ago on these forums. Pox decks have been around since Ice Age and BW Pox since Vindicate was printed. His lists commonly have flaws and poor synergy. Someone please separate the threads again.
Tabernacle is nice if you run it in sideboard as a 1-of and slot it in place of a non-land card as needed. I see some 1-of Maze of Ith, drop it, 1 Maze of Ith shouldn't be making or breaking you. Grafdigger's Cage is nice but Leyline and Tormod's both are better choices. Stop putting Surgical Extraction in a black based deck, run Extirpate like normal people do. Pox can't afford the life loss anyways, same reason it shouldn't run Thoughtseize. Pox should not be in top deck mode for long if ever, Pox is about everyone loses but I lose less or I recover faster or both. So you should have a draw engine and you should be counting your 1/3's properly.
I don't mean to sound like I'm on my soapbox, it just aggravates me sometimes to read these posts by people with their decklists and card selections that are obviously breaking the core concepts of Pox and how it should be played. When you think of Pox, think of Thresh, but black. It's a control deck designed to run on minimal resources, hold cards in hand for use as needed and have the ability the remove any threat by midgame. This is the way it was played in 1996(iirc?) and has continued over the years since. Stop breaking the deck.
Enough slandering from me, here's some tips I learned over the years playing and watching others play Pox.
1. Keep 3 lands on the table and preferably a way to cast Pox. (ex. Mishra's Factory, Bayou, Swamp, Mox Diamond)
2. Count, count, count and then count again. You should know at any given time what the exact effects of your Pox will be so that your opponent doesn't know when you're holding a Pox and debating on casting it.
3. Don't rely on your graveyard, you may not have it for long.
4. Know your opponent's deck. You should know what they are going to play before they play it.
5. In the case of a turn 1 Dark Ritual with a Hymn to Tourach and a 1cc discard, in 99.99% of the cases you Hymn to Tourach first, then 1cc discard. You might force them to counter the Hymn and still get what you want, you might Hymn what you want. It's better to hit what you want and have a fizzled 1cc discard then to miss completely.
6. 90% of the time you do not Pox first, second or third turn. There are some exceptions for third turn but if you do the math in most cases the opponent doesn't lose enough to warrant the Pox.
7. Pick one, control or clock. Trying to make your deck do both means it will fail at both. There are very aggroish Pox decks and very control style Pox decks. Most others have consistently failed.
8. It's a card game, use any tricks concerning card games that you can. There are youtube videos and books and other resources on these topics. If you want to win and win big, learn how to handle your deck.
9. Misdirection is key. Don't establish a pattern that can be exploited, change up your play sometimes to throw your opponent off. Some examples are, stalling when you have nothing to actually do, make it look like you're counting, swing first then cast, cast first then swing, etc.
Some of what I wrote is just standard to any card game or standard to Magic itself, some is specific to Pox.
As far as some new card selections, I now run 1 Bojuka Bog maindeck, and I plan to run at least 1 Syphon Life maindeck or 2-3 in sideboard. I tried the Inkmoth Nexus and as noted above I have to agree that it synergizes poorly with the goal of Pox.
Also, drop The Abyss, run Tabernacle. The Abyss is too slow and both cards will hold them down when in full effect but Tabernacle will get you to that point much faster and synergizes with the deck much better. Have people forgotten about Infest?
Just some comments and rants, please tell me to fsck off if I offended you.
I am going to start running Bloodghast, and Tombstalker in my build. 4 of and maybe a 2 of. Tombstalker was just made for Pox. I have 6 cards in my graveyard, real quick. I also agree with the idea of 3 being the max casting cost in Pox. With the exception of, of course, Tombstalker.
a 6/6 flyer would be difficult for any deck to deal with.
I feel Bloodghast is essential for Pox to keep important creatures.
also, any of you who run BG Pox, have you ever thought of Veteran Explorer? Most decks now and days run very few basic lands, it would not help your opponent out very much, but would greatly ramp your deck. just an idea. I have never playtested the idea.
Hey,
I just wanted to know what you guys think of the idea to switch after boarding.
Pre-board more graveyard dependence since then they most likely will have only a few hate cards (I'm looking at you ooze). Post-board if they board in more, we board it out, let them waste more cards !
Thought something like that:
MD
3 - 4 Life from the Loam (for recuring Wastelands, dreding ghasts etc.
4 Bloodghast
1 Nether Spirit
4 Mishra's Factorie (I know, they dont use the graveyard, but I wanted to name the finishers)
// Taking out Loam, Ghast & Spirit we need 8 Slots. Maybe something along the line of
2-3 Tombstalker even if we need our graveyard for it, at least before we cast the first one they will wait with their hate to blow up Loam/Ghast's)
2-3 Nihilith
4 The Rack
//And I dont know what else.. maybe this Avatar guy? Whose p/t is 13 - our life total, as a one off..
//The rest of the deck would be something like this
4 Wasteland
4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Liliana of the Veil
4 Inquisition of Kozilek
4 Sinkhole
4 Smallpox
3 Pox
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Innocent Blood
Could this work? Or is it a waste of sideboard slots just to make the few hate cards useless? I dont know wether they would side out removal or not since the creature count in the MD is so low, if they would it would improve this strategy a little bit. An other way would be [card]Cursed Scroll[/card] instead of Nihilith/Stalker. But this does need a lot of mana and without Loam you could get problems with it, maybe Crucible? But then we would need even more slots in our sideboard just to change our gameplan, don't know if it's worth.
@Holly,
If the opponent sb graveyard hate then you win. After all, you can hardcast everything
that plays with the graveyard, except loam. Good players will realise this and get other sideboard cards against you. Also, loam its not an engine for you and therefore not critical for your opponent to remove.
By the way, I recommend start by building your mana base first.
Starting with loam or crucible in your hand, but being unable to play them, because you Are mana screwed, sucks.
4 mishra, 4 wasteland, 3 urborg and a MINIMUM of 18 swamp.
Remember that mishras and wasteland really are creatures and spells.
And if you got the mana base right you have no need loam or crucible.