[Deck] Burn

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Originally Posted by Pinoy Goblin

Guys Ive been testing countryside crusher on my list, since we need topdeck spells mid game, if ever he's online it guarantees us gas. Here's my modified list, Ill be testing my list this coming sat on our weekly legacy tournament and give you guys a report:tongue:

Creatures [13]
3 Countryside Crusher
3 Grim Lavamancer
3 Keldon Marauders
4 Goblin Guide

Instants [13]
3 Fireblast
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Price of Progress
2 Magma Jet

Sorceries [15]
4 Chain Lightning
3 Flame Rift
4 Lava Spike
4 Rift Bolt

Lands [19]
19 Snow-Covered Mountains

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A few comments on your list:

• I think that Countryside Crusher is good value for three mana, but if it means that you have to cut business spells for it (e.g. Fireblast and Flame Rift), then it seems to defeat its purpose.
• At three mana, I feel that Sulfuric Vortex is able to do more.
  
  • It guarantees that damage would be dealt to your opponent regularly (except maybe if it's Stifled). In comparison, Countryside Crusher will only be able to guarantee that you'll get a non-land card, and can always be chump-blocked even if he grows to be 3++/3++. Drawing another Countryside Crusher in the mid-game won't be that pleasing, which brings me to my second point.
  • Drawing multiples of Sulfuric Vortex is okay, while multiple Countryside Crushers isn't too good.
  • Sulfuric Vortex prevents life-gain, one of the best ways to beat Burn.
  • Sulfuric Vortex is much more difficult to deal with as an Enchantment when compared to Countryside Crusher, which will have to dodge much more common Creature removal. As a side note, one of the design principles of Burn is to create virtual card advantage by exclusively playing non-permanent spells as often as possible - Countryside Crusher and Sulfuric Vortex do not adhere to this principle, but Sulfuric Vortex is able to activate less cards from your opponent when compared to Countryside Crusher.

I hope that helps.

Cheers,
jares

We should stop thinking about sub-optimal and unplayable cards.

Burn is simply red and every splash leads to an other
deck as people mentioned already (G = Goyfsligh, B = Red Death, W = Boros, U = Delver.stuff, just examples).
Burn is/was my first Legacy.dec and I have been playing cards like Magma Jet, Mogg Fanatics and so on... but these cards are too slow. Even control.decs have nowadays the access to strong creatures. Magma Jet is in my opinion too slow for burn.
There are plenty other cards that are better.

Countryside Crusher is an unplayable card in this deck because he is slow and deals no damage by himself (just by attacking...). So even if he has the chance to grow a bit = this isn't Sligh.
Burn doesn't give a shit about its creatures and so the Burn player shall think.
The Crusher has to survive to "do something" in your favour. If he is removed instantly by a path or sword or whatever, he was a useless cc3 drop.
If you care about your Crusher then you should be going the Sligh-route and burn your way through the enemy's defense.

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Originally Posted by CabalTherapy

We should stop thinking about sub-optimal and unplayable cards.

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I think that the problem with this is that it isn't that easy for everyone to see that a card is suboptimal or unplayable. :tongue: This is why we should make an effort to clearly state why a certain card is okay or otherwise.

As for everyone else that might be interested in just experimenting and exploring, always be wary of the pros and cons of each card that you're looking into. That way, you'll see for yourself if a card warrants consideration or otherwise. There are so many options available, and hopefully, we'll be able to narrow-down those options down to a few that have defensible arguments going for it.

Cheers,
jares

G-Guide gets exiled always. Hellspark a lot of the time also gets exiled.
this happens in the first few turns. It is hard for a deck to get rid of a 3/3, especially one that has the potential to grow.

If I can rid my deck of just two useless lands, with a Crusher it would be worth it, because any land after 3, just raises my blood pressure.

I am going to give it a try, I have two free slots in the deck that I just toss new things in and out of, this weekend it will be Countryside Crusher.

Hard to get rid of? Yours must be an unusual meta. Just about every black removal works on it. RUG Delver and company have 6 bolts for it. Everything else from Stoneblade to Maverick has StP. The only decks that generally can't deal with it are combo decks that are faster than you to begin with. Let us know if it works out though. I'm always glad someone's thinking outside the box, even if I don't think it'll work out in the end. =)

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Originally Posted by iamfrightenedtoo

G-Guide gets exiled always. Hellspark a lot of the time also gets exiled.
this happens in the first few turns. It is hard for a deck to get rid of a 3/3, especially one that has the potential to grow.

If I can rid my deck of just two useless lands, with a Crusher it would be worth it, because any land after 3, just raises my blood pressure.

I am going to give it a try, I have two free slots in the deck that I just toss new things in and out of, this weekend it will be Countryside Crusher.

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I agree with kirbysdl here, because it's a given that creatures receive the most removal. iamfrightenedtoo might have meant something else by his statement though...

I agree that even just one successful activation of Countryside Crusher's ability would be a good thing, but I still find that there are other options that give us more value for our mana. I also personally find it okay to draw the fourth land in a game, because that would mean that I would be able to cast that second Fireblast - it's the fifth land that worries me.

Cheers,
jares

WotC just needs to print more Bolt cards.

Seriously, that is what this deck needs. I wait for the day when WotC makes a 1CMC red spell that deals 4 damage with no catches or other weird conditions.

I can not think of a single thing to do with burn. It's about as optimized as I can see it being optimized short of experimenting with old and obscure cards or waiting for new cards to be printed.

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Originally Posted by DragoFireheart

It's about as optimized as I can see it being optimized

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I'd say that Burn and its standard card choices are pretty well understood, but people still like to do things differently. People still play Lavamancer, argue about Figure, choose to run Magma Jet or not. RUG Delver tempo lists on the other hand seem quite consistent, which means that people seem to have agreed on a single optimized list with very minor tweaks (+/-1 Mongoose, single Island as 19th land, etc.).

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Originally Posted by kirbysdl

Hard to get rid of? Yours must be an unusual meta. Just about every black removal works on it. RUG Delver and company have 6 bolts for it. Everything else from Stoneblade to Maverick has StP. The only decks that generally can't deal with it are combo decks that are faster than you to begin with. Let us know if it works out though. I'm always glad someone's thinking outside the box, even if I don't think it'll work out in the end. =)

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Let us be positive that players like us are testing out different cards for you people here, the problem with you guys that with the testing out of NEW cards that are not in your CORE lists the "BURN GODS GOES CRAZY":tongue:I rather have a 3/3 body creature that attacks,grows and helps mill out my lands for gas than an enchantment that deals both damage to us, PLS do take note all decks have creature removals, enchantments and artifact removals and counterspells . . . and a good player knows when to timely cast his important spells. We are thinking out of the box here people if you are not open to suggestions then let us close this thread and put the decklist of its final core list without any discussions anymore, this deck needs to grow and improve of its midgame lack of ability to win, the issue here is gas gas gas, everybody here wants to win at an early game but im thinking of midgame recovery and winning, dont tell me guys that you are not fed up watching your teamates on a tournament because your match finished 10mins total:tongue:

I just placed terribly in my local store, a 54 man turnout.
No good matches, and bad hands all day, you win some you lose some.
I replaced two Flame Rifts with two Countryside Crusher, and they were legit.
Worked extremely well. All of my matches had heavy creature removal, so they were exiled quickly, but well worth it.

I might shelve Burn for a while. My local meta is just terrible for it.
But Crusher is worth at least a test in a small tourney,

Just two points:

1) I'm never against people testing out unusual ideas, even if they're universally unpopular. But I think it's worth pointing out when an idea is in fact counterintuitive. Crusher falls squarely into that latter category.

2) Burn effectively has no mid-game recovery. If you're rocked back on your heels from your opponent's early moves, either they're playing combo or you're playing burn wrong. In the vast majority of matchups, Burn is the beatdown. Any mid-game recovery will be made by the opponent, and if any such recovery is successful, it means Burn will lose.

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Originally Posted by kirbysdl

Just two points:

1) I'm never against people testing out unusual ideas, even if they're universally unpopular. But I think it's worth pointing out when an idea is in fact counterintuitive. Crusher falls squarely into that latter category.

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- Crusher is a beater in a deck with beaters already. Not a huge issue if he gets plowed.

- Crusher gives us mid-game punch. People run things like Figure and he's more of a mana dump than Crushers 3cmc investment. We need to find ways to improve our mid game without killing our early game since we lack the raw speed of combo decks. Our reach and moderate speed is what makes us good in the meta.

- Crushers ability ensures that for as long as he is out, you will ALWAYS draw into burn spells. If they blew their plows/removal on your smaller creatures and they don't get rid of the crusher, you're going to kill them in the mid game.

I've never tested Crusher in burn before since I usually try to make creatureless burn. Thing is, burn doesn't have enough good spells to stay creatureless. We will therefore want creatures to supplement burn well. Hellspark Elemental, Goblin Guide, Grim Lavamancer are all good creatures for burn. A couple of Crushers could do well for burn.

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2) Burn effectively has no mid-game recovery. If you're rocked back on your heels from your opponent's early moves, either they're playing combo or you're playing burn wrong. In the vast majority of matchups, Burn is the beatdown. Any mid-game recovery will be made by the opponent, and if any such recovery is successful, it means Burn will lose.

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- Burn NEEDS to evolve to gain more mid-game recovery. We're not fast enough to pretend we are a combo deck. Things like Sulfuric Vortex and Countryside Crusher help give us a more solid mid-game (and curve well into our mana curve).

I think trying obscure and "bad" cards to find a way to improve burn is a worthwhile effort.

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Originally Posted by jares

A few comments on your list:

• I think that Countryside Crusher is good value for three mana, but if it means that you have to cut business spells for it (e.g. Fireblast and Flame Rift), then it seems to defeat its purpose.
• At three mana, I feel that Sulfuric Vortex is able to do more.
  
  • It guarantees that damage would be dealt to your opponent regularly (except maybe if it's Stifled). In comparison, Countryside Crusher will only be able to guarantee that you'll get a non-land card, and can always be chump-blocked even if he grows to be 3++/3++. Drawing another Countryside Crusher in the mid-game won't be that pleasing, which brings me to my second point.
  • Drawing multiples of Sulfuric Vortex is okay, while multiple Countryside Crushers isn't too good.
  • Sulfuric Vortex prevents life-gain, one of the best ways to beat Burn.
  • Sulfuric Vortex is much more difficult to deal with as an Enchantment when compared to Countryside Crusher, which will have to dodge much more common Creature removal. As a side note, one of the design principles of Burn is to create virtual card advantage by exclusively playing non-permanent spells as often as possible - Countryside Crusher and Sulfuric Vortex do not adhere to this principle, but Sulfuric Vortex is able to activate less cards from your opponent when compared to Countryside Crusher.

I hope that helps.

Cheers,
jares

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It confuses me that it isn't clear that Countryside Crusher is sub-optimal when compared to the other choices we have. Kindly refer to the comment above for some notes regarding the reasons for why Countryside Crusher is rarely used. The example above expounds on the comparison of Countryside Crusher to another card that can fill the 3-cmc slot (Sulfuric Vortex), but there can surely be other comparisons that can be made to illustrate that, while Countryside Crusher is okay, it just doesn't make the cut.

In addition to the notes provided above, some of these points might also be worth mentioning:

• Sulfuric Vortex deals damage as soon as you let your opponent go through his upkeep. In comparison, Countryside Crusher will need to go through the upkeep of your next turn to lose summoning sickness, and the attack phase to be able to possibly deal damage by itself.
• As much as Countryside Crusher solves the "top-decking" issues, it itself is also a horrible top-deck in close games.
• Note that Countryside Crusher is NOT able to guarantee that you'll be drawing a direct-damage spell, as it is only able to guarantee that you'll be drawing a non-land spell.
• Note that there are other more efficient ways to address the probability of "running out of gas" without causing a loss of tempo, as noted here.
• Sulfuric Vortex has the much better illustration! :laugh:

Cheers,
jares

jares, how do you feel about hasty creatures like Ball Lightning and Lightning Serpent? Are there any worthwhile ones that haven't been tested?

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Originally Posted by iamfrightenedtoo

I just placed terribly in my local store, a 54 man turnout.
No good matches, and bad hands all day, you win some you lose some.
I replaced two Flame Rifts with two Countryside Crusher, and they were legit.
Worked extremely well. All of my matches had heavy creature removal, so they were exiled quickly, but well worth it.

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I don't understand how they were well worth it, if they ate all the removal and didn't win you games.

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Originally Posted by DragoFireheart

jares, how do you feel about hasty creatures like Ball Lightning and Lightning Serpent? Are there any worthwhile ones that haven't been tested?

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Srsly, please read some of the pages of this thread.
Or is it just irony? ^^
These cards are like Countryside Crusher = not playable in a burn.dec because they are
simply too weak for Legacy or don't fit into the strategy of burn.

I don't want to offense anyone.

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Originally Posted by DragoFireheart

jares, how do you feel about hasty creatures like Ball Lightning and Lightning Serpent? Are there any worthwhile ones that haven't been tested?

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I feel for these cards in the same way that I feel for Spark Elemental - I personally like these cards, but I would always be able to find a reason for why they won't make the cut during testing. Lightning Serpent simply is not able to do enough for the mana that you ideally intend to have in a game, while Ball Lightning is just not a "reliable play" as a creature that comes in at turn 3 or later (amidst the removal and blockers floating around). Spark Elemental is the best of the three, as it is good value for what you're paying for it, but it's not a very good top-deck.

At the end of the day, these cards are okay, but there are other options that are able to contribute more to the deck's game plan without introducing drawbacks.

Kind Regards,
jares

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Originally Posted by CabalTherapy

Srsly, please read some of the pages of this thread.
Or is it just irony? ^^
These cards are like Countryside Crusher = not playable in a burn.dec because they are
simply too weak for Legacy or don't fit into the strategy of burn.

I don't want to offense anyone.

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I certainly agree with you CabalTherapy, but I guess that people do rarely do any back-reading, and it would be best for us to provide the sound reasoning for why these cards have been determined to be sub-par. We might have to do it repeatedly, but we'll always have new players around that haven't had the benefit of finding these things out for themselves - though I encourage you to do so.

Cheers,
jares

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Originally Posted by jares

I certainly agree with you CabalTherapy, but I guess that people do rarely do any back-reading, and it would be best for us to provide the sound reasoning for why these cards have been determined to be sub-par. We might have to do it repeatedly, but we'll always have new players around that haven't had the benefit of finding these things out for themselves - though I encourage you to do so.

Cheers,
jares

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I really don't want to offense new players or people who are testing out some new ideas but burn is a straightforeward dec. where one cannot play "crazy" cards in it or simply pick by "picture"/style...
I think that my post written some pages ago shows the core and the possibilities of a burn.dec. Of course there are many other cards that are playable in a burn.dec but it would take some time to mention them all:

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Originally Posted by CabalTherapy

...

Summarizing what we have written in the last pages, I think we can agree on the core of this deck but not on the "filling slots" due to personal preferences and meta choices. So would be a neverending discussion here.

Just main deck:
We all agree on (I hope that I don't make a mistake.):
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Chain Lightning
4 Rift Bolt
4 Lava Spike
4 Goblin Guide
4 Price of Progress
4 Fireblast

So these are 28 cards that has to be played in every burn.dec.
Lets focus on the mana base:
17-20 lands are fine
Lands that can be played are:
Mountain, Barbarian Ring, red fetchlands

Now, here come the "fillers" or cards of not so high quality like Lightning Bolt and co.
So 28 + 17 is 45 and 28 + 20 is 48. So we have still 12 to 15 slots left.
Cards that can be played in this slots are:
Keldon Marauders, Hellspark Elemental, Grim Lavamancer, Shard Volley, Flame Rift,
Sulfuric Vortex, Figure of Destiny, Volcanic Fallout

...

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Originally Posted by jares

It confuses me that it isn't clear that Countryside Crusher is sub-optimal when compared to the other choices we have. Kindly refer to the comment above for some notes regarding the reasons for why Countryside Crusher is rarely used. The example above expounds on the comparison of Countryside Crusher to another card that can fill the 3-cmc slot (Sulfuric Vortex), but there can surely be other comparisons that can be made to illustrate that, while Countryside Crusher is okay, it just doesn't make the cut.

In addition to the notes provided above, some of these points might also be worth mentioning:

• Sulfuric Vortex deals damage as soon as you let your opponent go through his upkeep. In comparison, Countryside Crusher will need to go through the upkeep of your next turn to lose summoning sickness, and the attack phase to be able to possibly deal damage by itself.
• As much as Countryside Crusher solves the "top-decking" issues, it itself is also a horrible top-deck in close games.
• Note that Countryside Crusher is NOT able to guarantee that you'll be drawing a direct-damage spell, as it is only able to guarantee that you'll be drawing a non-land spell.
• Note that there are other more efficient ways to address the probability of "running out of gas" without causing a loss of tempo, as noted here.
• Sulfuric Vortex has the much better illustration! :laugh:

Cheers,
jares

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Kabayan we have different opinions on this one :smile:

- sulfuric vortex only does 2 damage on his upkeep and two damage on our upkeep (OUCH!) without a guarantee that are next draw is a GAS
- with the inclusion of flame rift in our decks it is hard for me to mainboard vortex really
- a resolved crusher guarantees us a blocker plus GAS plus 3++ point damage if he is unblocked
- with only few creature spells 13 (creatures) and 28 (instants and sorceries) it guarantees us a higher percentage of GAS with a resolved crusher
- drawing multiple vortex is bad because if you're on the downhill this is GG:tongue:
- in an aggro infested meta crusher is better than vortex
- vortex is only good on stone blade match ups, mostly vs. control decks
- vortex is a sb not mainboard worthy for me
- burn needs beaters to inflict consistent damage and finish them with our burn spells
- vs. zoo,rug,u/r delver which would you rather choose top deck?:smile:
- with an active and pumped crusher 3++/3++ it guarantees us a wall of defense while blasting them
- it gives gas to grim lavamancer
- yes its true that there are many creature removal spells but they have to deal first with my guides, lavamancers and marauders:tongue:
- crusher gives us midgame GAS

PS: People who believes Burn effectively has no mid-game recovery :mad: that's why we are testing NEW cards on our list to solve this. We are not playing this deck wrong we are thinking of a solution on this matter rather accepting defeat early:tongue:


Heres my updated list: Guys I dont need to explain crusher anymore just play test him and all I can say he is nuts :smile:

Creatures [13]
3 Countryside Crusher
3 Grim Lavamancer
3 Keldon Marauders
4 Goblin Guide

Instants [12]
4 Fireblast
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Price of Progress

Sorceries [16]
4 Chain Lightning
4 Flame Rift
4 Lava Spike
4 Rift Bolt

Lands [19]
19 Snow-Covered Mountains