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Re: All B/R update speculation.
I think these are a couple of fair, and safe, comments:
1) Black Vise would be really good. It makes fringe playable cards like Kuldotha Rebirth and Shrapnel Blast good. A turn 1 Rite of flame into double Vise is scary good (but not really broken.) Giving aggro decks like Zoo or Sligh/Burn the ability to possibly outrace combo decks would be good for the format. Right now, sligh-style aggro isn't a contender. The lowest curve of top decks right now is RUG Delver/Tempo Threshold. They could probably use it, too...but in all liklihood, their 1-mana threats are already superior IMHO (delver, goose.)
2) Mind Twist would be good in grinding control decks that like to offset late game card advantage. I love Raven's Crime alongside Life from the Loam, but it's just not that great in most cases. It takes a long time to get it active unless you play with redundant copies (either literally or with Intuition) and that redundancy isn't usually that great. Mind Twist would fill that role in Rock/Jund/Good Stuff.dec as a 1-2 of alongside targeted discard. It would be great against most decks without being broken. I like that it's easier to pull off than Hymn with only one black mana, which I think is fairly offset by costing one more mana for the same effect. I really want to play it alongside my Deathrite Shamans, I think it would be good.
Summary: I want Black Vise and Mind Twist unbanned.
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Re: All B/R update speculation.
Gimme Tolarian :x
4 Tolarian
4 LEd
4 Petal
4 Chrome mox
4 Mox opal
WEEEEEEE, deck that lose everytime you don't draw tolarian because you have a lot of 0 mana artifacts that do basically nothing, especially in multiples, or go big with Tolarian and the U spell that return all your artifact to your hand for 20 storm on T1. Money issues also. And i'd love to play it in stax variants.
Vise wouldn't do anything, as Twist. Dragon could be, but it's a combo card. It's however answered by many colors, so it's more acceptable. Skullclamp? Maverick too good. Survival ? Again Maverick gg. Recruiter? Not really broken, more annoying as shit if you have to stack your deck 1 hour zzz. MM? Everything would play this and would slow the format a lot, meaning again Hivemind as best deck. Earthcraft? Oh another that wouldn't do anything. Hermit? Too good and compact. Frantic Search? Why would i want to help combo again? I don't want more blue zzz. Windfall? Seems better in an all in strategy, worse than existing engine in a more standard compact engine. Would probably see 0 play. Library would be an interesting card, but it's too expensive. Same can be said of imperial seal. Vault is interesting, but probably too good for Storm decks as it make T2 wins so much easier. It's a colorless dark ritual at worst. Pretty good if u ask me.
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Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
dune2k
Just quoting the stuff where I disagree...
Aside from the "not fun" part while watching an opponent stack their decks for like 5 minutes this also has this written over it: 1R: I win against any sort of control decks.
After resolving a recruiter you can just slam goblin after goblin on the board which needs to be handled...and in the case of Miracles that's not even possible. If they Terminus away your Goblins you just play the next recruiter and play them again...not cool from the point of view of a control player.
Biggest problem Goblins have right now is their combo matchup, control is decent to good as it is.
This isn't actually true. When Goblin Recruiter was legal in this format (when it was still 1.5), Landstill was one of its most difficult matchups. If Landstill can counter Food Chain, it's not particularly difficult for it to control the board until inevitability kicks in.
Also, Recruiter can be an incredibly risky proposition against Food Chain, because it forces you to go all in on whatever plan seems best when you set up your stack. If control is able to disrupt the plan in any way, the Food Chain player can often end up with a stack of cards he can't play properly, and has to manually draw through the cards (often 10 or 20 cards deep) with absolutely no way to shuffle his way out of it. It's not particularly difficult for the savvy control player to do, because he can see exactly what you're putting on top of your deck.
For example, in a lot of games against Landstill, you'd want to go off as quickly as possible to prevent the control player from stabilizing or wrecking your manabase. This would often mean comboing off with only 3 mana on the table, using Food Chain to get the mana you need to cast that first Ringleader. If they hard counter that Ringleader, you're stuck with no creatures on the board, and not enough mana to hardcast another Ringleader, particularly if Landstill can follow up with a Wasteland. Now you have a library full of cards you have to manually draw through (most of which you can't cast) before you can start putting on real pressure.
I can't say for certain how the matchup would play out against modern control decks, but historically, they've done very well against Food Chain Goblins.
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Re: All B/R update speculation.
First off Amon, thanks for a pretty amusing dissection. One thing I did want to respond to:
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Amon Amarth
Mind's Desire
Extremely powerful but equally difficult to cast for full value. Double Blue and a 6 mana casting cost is a real killer. It is also worse than the equivaent Storm engines: Time Spiral and Ad Nasueum. It is more expensive than both and it takes many more resources to extract full value, making you even more vulnerable to disruption. I think it is a better Wish target than Diminishing Returns, at least. Verdict: Unban
I agree with this. So many of the arguments I've seen for keeping it banned seem to be little more than kneejerk reactions that are easily dismissed when you actually think about it in reality. It's laughably inferior to Time Spiral in High Tide. I'm not as experienced with Storm, but again it just seems like it's weaker than the engine they already have (Ad Nauseam).
It just keeps coming back to the point that Mind's Desire is supposed to serve as the card that lets you build up Storm, yet requires storm to be decent.
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Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Zilla
This isn't actually true. When Goblin Recruiter was legal in this format (when it was still 1.5), Landstill was one of its most difficult matchups. If Landstill can counter Food Chain, it's not particularly difficult for it to control the board until inevitability kicks in.
Also, Recruiter can be an incredibly risky proposition against Food Chain, because it forces you to go all in on whatever plan seems best when you set up your stack. If control is able to disrupt the plan in any way, the Food Chain player can often end up with a stack of cards he can't play properly, and has to manually draw through the cards (often 10 or 20 cards deep) with absolutely no way to shuffle his way out of it. It's not particularly difficult for the savvy control player to do, because he can see exactly what you're putting on top of your deck.
For example, in a lot of games against Landstill, you'd want to go off as quickly as possible to prevent the control player from stabilizing or wrecking your manabase. This would often mean comboing off with only 3 mana on the table, using Food Chain to get the mana you need to cast that first Ringleader. If they hard counter that Ringleader, you're stuck with no creatures on the board, and not enough mana to hardcast another Ringleader, particularly if Landstill can follow up with a Wasteland. Now you have a library full of cards you have to manually draw through (most of which you can't cast) before you can start putting on real pressure.
I can't say for certain how the matchup would play out against modern control decks, but historically, they've done very well against Food Chain Goblins.
That was a long time ago and I can't imagine it playing out anything like that today. I think if you're playing a Recruiter and there is a chance you could get disrupted, say a Wasteland on your Tundra and a Swords to Plowshares on your Warchief then you shouldn't be casting Recruiter or you're stacking it wrong. You don't always have to combo off with Food Chain every time. Hell, if the metagame is saturated with slow, Blue control decks I'm not going to even bother playing Food Chain in my maindeck. Food Chain competes for slots with Aether Vial and Vial is a shitload better versus Control decks. I'd just put the Food Chains in my sideboard for the Aggro and Combo decks. You don't have to rush out a Recruiter against these decks. They're glacially slow. Wait till you've run them out of answers then play a Recruiter. It's highly improbable Miracles ever beats a resolved Recruiter.
@Lord Seth: Thank you. I wanted something informative and funny. Well, I tried to be funny. Mind's Desire doesn't seem oppressive in the slightest. It takes too much effort to even get it to the same level as either previously mentioned Storm engines as well as it can fuck you with RNG. It's pretty tame.
@GGoober: I really like the word "fuck" if you couldn't tell. :P
I would like to see Survival and Misstep and some of the other cards listed as "Unban" or "RFI" to be unbanned and let the meta sort itself out. Myself, I like higher power metagames and wouldn't mind Legacy becoming more degenerate. That is a pipe dream of course.
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Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Hanni
While I would love to see Survival come off the list, you're looking at Survival all wrong. It's not just an enabler for a slow (turn 4) combo deck with Vengevines, it's a very powerful engine card. Imagine tossing it into Maverick. All of a sudden, Maverick gains a robust card advantage engine that tutors for any answer it needs, before winning with a pile of Vengevines, or putting a Knight of the Reliquary into play every turn as a backup plan vs hate.
I'm not for or against the unbanning of Survival, and I do think that Survival/Vengevine would not be overpowered these days. I was simply pointing out that Survival does more than just put Vengevines into play.
Why would this be a bad thing anyway. Is the format is really overrun by GW creature decks at the moment?
A GW deck that has some actual explosive power? Why not?
And yeah, RIP, DRS, Snapcaster mage + Extraction all make Vengevival a lot less scary nowadays.
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Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
FieryBalrog
Why would this be a bad thing anyway. Is the format is really overrun by GW creature decks at the moment?
A GW deck that has some actual explosive power? Why not?
And yeah, RIP, DRS, Snapcaster mage + Extraction all make Vengevival a lot less scary nowadays.
I think giving Survival to Maverick would be fine. It's bad with Thalia anyway. I'm not sure they would even want it since it overlaps with GSZ anyway.
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Re: All B/R update speculation.
I think survival in the current meta can just add some variety
- counterspell and discard still prevent it
- M pulse, decay, vindicate, disenchant can take care of it
- leyline of the void, rest in peace and various extraction effect take care of vengevine and other recursion
- It's true that is a strong reusable tutor but it's mana intensive, so no T1-2 kill
I'd love survival back because it will allow many toolbox multicolored deck, because is not limited to green creatures like gsz,and some bursty start that are still slower than a medium storm or show'n'tell-omni-whatever.deck.
Goblin recruiter it's a little harder it's true that even if you're food chain into it you have to draw the goblins but... Glimpse of Nature... and it's green like food chain, consider it. It could be nice if the goal is to speed up the meta.
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Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Why would this be a bad thing anyway. Is the format is really overrun by GW creature decks at the moment?
A GW deck that has some actual explosive power? Why not?
And yeah, RIP, DRS, Snapcaster mage + Extraction all make Vengevival a lot less scary nowadays.
Right now? No. Was there an SCG event a little while back where Maverick put 7 out of 8 players in Top 8? Yes. Was there a time when Maverick was the most dominant deck in the format? Yes. Just because Miracles came along and knocked Maverick off its high horse, doesn't mean giving it an engine like Survival is just automatically safe these days.
Quote:
I think giving Survival to Maverick would be fine. It's bad with Thalia anyway. I'm not sure they would even want it since it overlaps with GSZ anyway.
It's bad with Thalia, because it will cost 2G in a deck that ramps to 2G pretty easily? lol...
And in all seriousness, you think Maverick would rather run GSZ over Survival?
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Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Hanni
Right now? No. Was there an SCG event a little while back where Maverick put 7 out of 8 players in Top 8? Yes. Was there a time when Maverick was the most dominant deck in the format? Yes.
You're talking about GW Survival, not Maverick, and in that case it's not Miracles which did anything, it's the banning of SotF. And as people have pointed out, the format is much different nowadays. Survival is more than safe in this environment, and might provide some much needed fresh air to the current strangle-hold brainstorm has on the format, if it didn't become just yet another brainstorm deck in the first place.
Since Brainstorm is too much of a precious babe to get banned despite bringing 7 or 8 out of every top 8 for ages, might as well encourage some other stuff, right? Or no?
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Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
FieryBalrog
Since Brainstorm is too much of a precious babe to get banned despite bringing 7 or 8 out of every top 8 for ages, might as well encourage some other stuff, right? Or no?
Or they could just print stuff that sees heavy maindeck play and discourages Brainstorming, just like DRS puts a damper on GY-heavy strategies.
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Re: All B/R update speculation.
Snapcaster Mage
+
Surgical Extraction
Pithing needle
Grafdigger's Cage
Abrupt Decay
Death Rite Shaman
SoTF is fine coming off the banned list.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Amon Amarth
I would like to see Survival and Misstep and
- I agree with SoTF, but LOLstep? Are you fucking kidding me?
As much as I loved MM when it was legal, that thing needs to stay banned. It would push miracle control over the top, completely shut combo out of the meta, and the meta would devolve into Miracle Control, Goblins (since they are the best deck that abuses Cavern of Souls), Abrupt Step (BUG decks w/ MM and Abrupt Decay), and anti-goblin/anti-miracle/anti-BUG decks.
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Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
DragoFireheart
[cards]
As much as I loved MM when it was legal, that thing needs to stay banned. It would push miracle control over the top, completely shut combo out of the meta, and the meta would devolve into Miracle Control, Goblins (since they are the best deck that abuses Cavern of Souls), Abrupt Step (BUG decks w/ MM and Abrupt Decay), and anti-goblin/anti-miracle/anti-BUG decks.
That sounds like a fun format.
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Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
wcm8
That sounds like a fun format.
- I hope that was sarcasm. My meter is currently being repaired.
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Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
DragoFireheart
Snapcaster Mage+Surgical ExtractionPithing needleGrafdigger's CageAbrupt DecayDeath Rite Shaman
SoTF is fine coming off the banned list.
- I agree with SoTF, but LOLstep? Are you fucking kidding me?
As much as I loved MM when it was legal, that thing needs to stay banned. It would push miracle control over the top, completely shut combo out of the meta, and the meta would devolve into Miracle Control, Goblins (since they are the best deck that abuses Cavern of Souls), Abrupt Step (BUG decks w/ MM and Abrupt Decay), and anti-goblin/anti-miracle/anti-BUG decks.
You cut off my quote. The format would look different than what you postulated.
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Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Amon Amarth
You cut off my quote. The format would look different than what you postulated.
Ok, the Show and Tell decks would also abuse MM.
Did we all just forget how utterly warped the format became with Mental Misstep? FFS, it made any deck better by simply adding it.
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Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
DragoFireheart
Ok, the Show and Tell decks would also abuse MM.
Did we all just forget how utterly warped the format became with Mental Misstep? FFS, it made any deck better by simply adding it.
I'm not sure if you're being purposefully obtuse or not but here is the full quote:
"I would like to see Survival and Misstep and some of the other cards listed as "Unban" or "RFI" to be unbanned and let the meta sort itself out. Myself, I like higher power metagames and wouldn't mind Legacy becoming more degenerate. That is a pipe dream of course. "
The format wouldn't look anything like your describing because there are more cards than MM being unbanned in this hypothetical Legacy. In fact I never said that I think MM should be unbanned. Here is what I said:
"Mental Misstep
I think this card has been banned too recently to see it come off anytime soon. Wait a few years and let's check back. Verdict: Stay Banned"
The latter quote is apart of that big write-up a page back. I thought it would be implied that I did this with the best of intentions, setting aside personal bias. Personally, I would like to see Legacy become broken in half. Still, I don't think that is best for the format or for the game, most people don't enjoy those types of games.
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Re: All B/R update speculation.
Problem of mental misstep is the printing of snapcaster mage. Mental misstep was fine before snapcaster, but tiago put the nail in the coffin for MM.
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Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Amon Amarth
I'm not sure if you're being purposefully obtuse or not but here is the full quote:
"I would like to see Survival and Misstep and some of the other cards listed as "Unban" or "RFI" to be unbanned and let the meta sort itself out. Myself, I like higher power metagames and wouldn't mind Legacy becoming more degenerate. That is a pipe dream of course. "
The format wouldn't look anything like your describing because there are more cards than MM being unbanned in this hypothetical Legacy. In fact I never said that I think MM should be unbanned. Here is what I said:
- Anyone ever played Find Waldo before?
Also, the format would look like I suggested because MM was that degenerate. I think you are forgetting how ridiculous it was: hoping for other cards to somehow "balance" is pretty silly.
Quote:
"Mental Misstep
I think this card has been banned too recently to see it come off anytime soon. Wait a few years and let's check back. Verdict: Stay Banned"
The latter quote is apart of that big write-up a page back. I thought it would be implied that I did this with the best of intentions, setting aside personal bias. Personally, I would like to see Legacy become broken in half. Still, I don't think that is best for the format or for the game, most people don't enjoy those types of games.
- You wouldn't need to unban any other card that wasn't some sort of Vintage power: just unban Mental Misstep and watch the format spiral out of control.
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Re: All B/R update speculation.
Dear Hasbro,
I promise to start buying your sealed product if you let me play with Gush and Brainstorm together as 4-ofs.
Sincerely,
Brandon
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Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
emidln
Dear Hasbro,
I promise to start buying your sealed product if you let me play with Gush and Brainstorm together as 4-ofs.
Sincerely,
Brandon
- I really don't understand why, short of some power cards, Vintage doesn't have a shorter banned list.
WotC should make a new format where the only banned cards are:
Amulet of Quoz
Bronze Tablet
Chaos Orb
Contract from Below
Darkpact
Demonic Attorney
Falling Star
Jeweled Bird
Rebirth
Shahrazad
Tempest Efreet
Timmerian Fiends
And have no restricted list. Give the format some cool name like Arcanum or something. I'm curious as to what sort of degenerate crap could happen. Anyways, back on topic...
I don't see anything being banned in the near future. The format looks fairly stable and varied. Thoughts?
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Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
DragoFireheart
Does it really need to be an official format like 2 dozen people in the world can play it competitively?
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Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
DragoFireheart
I don't see anything being banned in the near future. The format looks fairly stable and varied. Thoughts?
Bannings seem very unlikely.
Though if they were to ban something--and again, I don't think they will--it'd probably be Brainstorm, Show and Tell, or Sensei's Divining Top.
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Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
mini1337s
Does it really need to be an official format like 2 dozen people in the world can play it competitively?
- Maybe not, but It'd still be a neat to see how degenerate it would become.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Lord Seth
Bannings seem very unlikely.
Though if they were to ban something--and again, I don't think they will--it'd probably be Brainstorm, Show and Tell, or Sensei's Divining Top.
- Specifically, Show and Tell, then Brainstorm, then Sensei's Divining Top, in order of which is most likely to be banned first.
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Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
You're talking about GW Survival, not Maverick, and in that case it's not Miracles which did anything, it's the banning of SotF. And as people have pointed out, the format is much different nowadays. Survival is more than safe in this environment, and might provide some much needed fresh air to the current strangle-hold brainstorm has on the format, if it didn't become just yet another brainstorm deck in the first place.
Since Brainstorm is too much of a precious babe to get banned despite bringing 7 or 8 out of every top 8 for ages, might as well encourage some other stuff, right? Or no?
No, I'm talking about GW Maverick. GW Maverick put 7 out of 8 players into the Top 8 of an SCG a little while back, before Miracles hit the scene. There's a thread for it in Format & Article Discussion somewhere.
And there's a big difference between Brainstorm being in 7 decks out of the top 8, when each deck is a completely different deck, and 7 out of 8 decks being nearly identical card-for-card.
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Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Hanni
No, I'm talking about GW Maverick. GW Maverick put 7 out of 8 players into the Top 8 of an SCG a little while back, before Miracles hit the scene. There's a thread for it in Format & Article Discussion somewhere.
And there's a big difference between Brainstorm being in 7 decks out of the top 8, when each deck is a completely different deck, and 7 out of 8 decks being nearly identical card-for-card.
Let's use real facts. SCG Baltimore from March 2013 only had 6 Maverick decks.
There have been many times when Brainstorm was 100% in top 8. You keep harping on how bad Maverick is for the format when it takes a majority of ONE tournament; one that was saturated by Blue decks. It's not the end of the world when a meta deck beats the expected meta. I swear I've seen you say this thing for weeks like a broken record. Call it an anomaly.
Meanwhile, week after week, SCG T8's are 7/8 Brainstorm decks of varying shades of blue.
Nov 4th, SCG St Louis - 7/8 Brainstorm decks in T8 - non-BS deck: Deadguy Ale.
Nov 11th, SCG Dallas - 7/8 Brainstorm decks in T8 - non-BS deck: Goblins.
Nov 18th, SCG Seattle - 6/8 Brainstorm decks in T8 - non-BS decks: Maverick, The Rock
Dec 2nd, SCG Baltimore - 7/8 Brainstorm decks in T8 - non-BS deck: Dredge
Dec 9th, SCG Las Vegas - 7/8 Brainstorm decks in T8 - non-BS deck: Elves
Dec 15th SCG Invitational - 7/8 Brainstorm decks in T8 - non-BS deck: Elves
Dec 16th SCG Los Angeles - 5/8 Brainstorm decks in T8 - non-BS decks: Aggro Loam, Lands, Zombies
The one outlier is all you focus on, and it's not the most important point at all. You're missing the forest for the tree.
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Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Hanni
No, I'm talking about GW Maverick. GW Maverick put 7 out of 8 players into the Top 8 of an SCG a little while back, before Miracles hit the scene. There's a thread for it in Format & Article Discussion somewhere.
And there's a big difference between Brainstorm being in 7 decks out of the top 8, when each deck is a completely different deck, and 7 out of 8 decks being nearly identical card-for-card.
I'm not sure what you're expecting, given the relative dearth of Tier One or Tier 1.5 decks without Brainstorm.
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Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Koby
LET IT GO!
There have been many times when Brainstorm was 100% in top 8. You keep harping on how bad Maverick is for the format when it takes a majority of ONE tournament; one that was saturated by Blue decks. It's not the end of the world when a meta deck beats the expected meta. I swear I've seen you say this thing for weeks like a broken record. Call it an anomaly.
Meanwhile, week after week, SCG T8's are 7/8 Brainstorm decks of varying shades of blue.
Nov 4th, SCG St Louis - 7/8 Brainstorm decks in T8 - non-BS deck: Deadguy Ale.
Nov 11th, SCG Dallas - 7/8 Brainstorm decks in T8 - non-BS deck: Goblins.
Nov 18th, SCG Seattle - 6/8 Brainstorm decks in T8 - non-BS decks: Maverick, The Rock
Dec 2nd, SCG Baltimore - 7/8 Brainstorm decks in T8 - non-BS deck: Dredge
Dec 9th, SCG Las Vegas - 7/8 Brainstorm decks in T8 - non-BS deck: Elves
Dec 15th SCG Invitational - 7/8 Brainstorm decks in T8 - non-BS deck: Elves
Dec 16th SCG Los Angeles - 5/8 Brainstorm decks in T8 - non-BS decks: Aggro Loam, Lands, Zombies
The one outlier is all you focus on, and it's not the most important point at all. You're missing the forest for the tree.
He has a point Hanni. Hell, look at the DTB list: over half run brainstorm.
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Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
The one outlier is all you focus on, and it's not the most important point at all. You're missing the forest for the tree.
Quote:
I'm not sure what you're expecting, given the relative dearth of Tier One or Tier 1.5 decks without Brainstorm.
Quote:
He has a point Hanni. Hell, look at the DTB list: over half run brainstorm.
I wasn't focusing on one outlier, I was pointing it out in relation to someone saying that Maverick was underpowered and needed a boost, when the only reason its down right now is because of Terminus. You're missing my actual underlying point, which was in relation to Survival:
Quote:
Just because Miracles came along and knocked Maverick off its high horse, doesn't mean giving it an engine like Survival is just automatically safe these days.
EDIT: I would love to build/play Survival Gravevine though, with some hot Lotleth on Squee action too.
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Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
DragoFireheart
He has a point Hanni. Hell, look at the DTB list: over half run brainstorm.
Legacy = 50 Shades of blue.
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Re: All B/R update speculation.
Responding in this thread, since I saw another method of the "Chains-Bear" in one of the spoilers, and my post will veer heavily into the "Ban Brainstorm" territory. Might as well segregate that talk in the correct thread, eh?
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Barook
Or they could just print stuff that sees heavy maindeck play and discourages Brainstorming, just like DRS puts a damper on GY-heavy strategies.
There's a few problems with doing that:
-Brainstorm is a lot harder to target than graveyard interactions are because it is a lot more narrow an effect and the ability to deny either drawing cards or placing them on top of your library is not as widely dispersed in the color pie as graveyard hate is. Any potential Anti-BS-Bear could be poorly targeted either in effect or in color/mana-cost, hitting other strategies with collateral damage, or not getting the hate innto the right hands. For instance, "Chains-Bear" hurts decks like Enchantress and Elves more than a lot of the decks that pack Brainstorm. U/x/x Tempo is usually stuffed with removal and counters, so while it's a pain to deal with, it doesn't invalidate their strategy completely. And a hypothetical "Chains-Bear" would likely be Black, meaning it would fit in all the Black decks with creatures in Legacy. Yeah...all of those.
-When you nuke a graveyard, you're actively stopping a deck from following through on its strategy (or one of their strategies). When you lay down a hate piece for Brainstorm (or other cantrips) you're mildly inconveniencing them, being a speedbump that may not even be necessary. It's a cantrip, oil for the machine. Very effective oil, but not really an integral part of the machine. All the decks that run Brainstorm could survive in a world without BS. Sure, they'd be less efficient, and couldn't be as greedy with their builds, but they would still exist in some form. Graveyard decks without their graveyard don't exist. Stack decks that get throttled on the stack (by, say, Teeg, Canonist, Thalia, 3Sphere) fall apart if they can't unthrottle the stack.
-Making something maindeckable in the vein of Deathrite Shaman that could fight Brainstorm would be absurdly difficult. Shaman, for one green or one black mana gives you mana fixing, mana ramp, targeted gravehate, a reach/win-condition, and maybe even life gain if you need it for some reason (perhaps to make Storm players sad that they have to count to 11 instead). And the 1/2 body is also not insignificant. To make something like that to stop Brainstorm...jeez, I don't know where to start.
This is more fuel for the "Ban Brainstorm" flames, I would think. When people suggest that things be printed to stop one prolific, format-warping card in the way that other entire zones/strategies are disrupted...well, that suggests there's something up with that one card. And given that said card shows up in almost every "over-archetype" (i.e. combo, control, tempo), it may be time to take it down from the pedestal and put it out to pasture. Ponder and Preordain will be fine enough, it's not like we're asking Blue mages to make do with Portent and Serum Visions.
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Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Jamaican Zombie Legend
And given that said card shows up in almost every "over-archetype" (i.e. combo, control, tempo), it may be time to take it down from the pedestal and put it out to pasture.
It could be argued that Brainstorm is fine precisely because it enables almost every archetype. When you have a diverse format where every major archetype is flourishing, what exactly is the problem?
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Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Zilla
It could be argued that Brainstorm is fine precisely because it enables almost every archetype. When you have a diverse format where every major archetype is flourishing, what exactly is the problem?
You really think that Brainstorm gone would reduce the diversification of decks? I'm seeing almost every deck has to be blue nowadays to be viable, that's not a testament to diversity, that's a testament at how one shell can contain everything.
Take this list as an example:
Creatures [13]
1 Vendilion Clique
4 Dark Confidant
4 Deathrite Shaman
4 Tarmogoyf
Instants [9]
1 Daze
4 Abrupt Decay
4 Brainstorm
Sorceries [9]
2 Ponder
3 Hymn to Tourach
4 Thoughtseize
Planeswalkers [6]
3 Jace, the Mind Sculptor
3 Liliana of the Veil
Lands [23]
1 Forest
1 Island
1 Swamp
1 Tropical Island
2 Bayou
2 Misty Rainforest
3 Underground Sea
4 Polluted Delta
4 Verdant Catacombs
4 Wasteland
If Brainstorm didn't exist, would you still run blue? Would you still splash a color for conditional countermagic and trade that for a more risky manabase? Would you add red for bolts, black for hand disruption, white for creature removal? Blue is too catch all in my eyes, ponder is a fine card that fix your hands without invalidating discard and wastes nearly as much.
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Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Zilla
It could be argued that Brainstorm is fine precisely because it enables almost every archetype. When you have a diverse format where every major archetype is flourishing, what exactly is the problem?
Well firstly, with the death of Zoo, it's hard to say aggro is a real archetype in Legacy, and of course, RUG is not an aggro deck. With the death of Maverick, there's no real mid-range decks anymore, barring some BUG Jace decks that lean more towards mid-range than Control. But frankly, that's one of the most boring ways to say mid-range exists, because it's really just yet another Jace deck, now brought to you by Deathrite Shaman.
The problem is starting almost every archetype by pairing BS with FoW (since the interaction between BS and free counterspells is very strong, and BS helps make FoW work in more ways than one). Then realizing that FoW takes 18+ blue cards to run effectively, and ending up with a solid blue core that pulls from a very small pool of cards ( other cheap countermagic, Clique, Jace, Ponder...) Sometimes you can take the exciting step of not running FoW and just running Jace & friends instead.
You can tilt into any archetype you like; but how you get there is very restricted. The blue duals obviously all cost 2-3x most of the others, but in fact if we were to price them based purely on how much they were played (successfully) in Legacy, then: Badlands & Plateau would be about $1, Tagia about $5, Scrubland and Bayou about $30 thanks to Esper and BUG decks, and Savannah at $30 because of people clinging onto Maverick or playing Bant for whatever reason. Obviously made up numbers but I'm pretty sure you can correlate them to how much these lands get played.
FoW is a fair card. Brainstorm isn't; apparently, if a draw 3 card isn't Ancestral Recall then it's fair in people's eyes. The idea that Brainstorm is somehow "inherently" fair just because... well, just because, is kinda dumb. Brainstorm was widely touted as one of the best cards in Vintage in the time before it got restricted, and people obviously know that it's powerful; but it's supposedly OK because it's effect isn't an immediate bomb on the game.
But the massive, massive edge it gives in flexibility and consistency isn't fair to decks without it. Personally, I don't care that much outside of a theoretical basis, because I just play EDH almost all the time now, and though blue is even stupider in EDH than it is elsewhere, the format is casual and largely self-regulating which mitigates that almost completely if you have a decent playgroup.
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Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
FieryBalrog
FoW is a fair card. Brainstorm isn't; apparently, if a draw 3 card isn't Ancestral Recall then it's fair in people's eyes. The idea that Brainstorm is somehow "inherently" fair just because... well, just because, is kinda dumb. Brainstorm was widely touted as one of the best cards in Vintage in the time before it got restricted, and people obviously know that it's powerful; but it's supposedly OK because it's effect isn't an immediate bomb on the game.
Brainstorm Legacy != Brainstorm in Vintage.
Jace is legal in Legacy but was banned in Standard when it was in the legal set. Therefore, JTMS Legacy != JTMS Standard.
Trinisphere is restricted in Vintage but not banned in Legacy. Therefore, Trinisphere Legacy != Trinisphere Vintage
You don't understand that cards legal in different formats also have different power levels. Therefore, comparing the impact a card has in one format is pointless and meaningless. Also, MUD has warped Vintage and unbanning Brainstorm in Vintage might be worthwhile.
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Re: All B/R update speculation.
Seriously? Brainstorm AGAIN?!
Aggro is dead, huh? The meta-games shifted a lot during the last two or three months and will keep doing so. With the print of DRS bug decks got more popular, but considering the period of time they have been popular you're just crying about the hype of a new and exciting card. Please stay calm and wait a little. With the next set released there might be something completely different coming up.
@FieryBalrog:
Please be a little patient. I know it's the nature of magic players to complain about their favorite archetype being to weak, but considering the amount of people playing a certain Deck and the percentage of them playing it well will not differ all to much when you look at blue and non-blue decks. The math has been done before and I am sure nothing has changed. A lot of people just enjoy blue Decks, and probably not for their achievements but the versatile options of plays.
I predict a rise of combo once brainstorm got banned. That's the day I'll join the crwod of people saying aggro is dead.
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Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
GexxX
I predict a rise of combo once brainstorm got banned. That's the day I'll join the crwod of people saying aggro is dead.
I'm amazed by this sentence considering your signature. As a combo player you should know that Banning Brainstorm would hurt combo archtypes more than anything else. I'm sure this was mentioned about 6 Times before in this thread
As I told a few Pages ago: This threads topics and arguments endlessly repeat
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Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
GexxX
Seriously? Brainstorm AGAIN?!
Aggro is dead, huh? The meta-games shifted a lot during the last two or three months and will keep doing so. With the print of DRS bug decks got more popular, but considering the period of time they have been popular you're just crying about the hype of a new and exciting card. Please stay calm and wait a little. With the next set released there might be something completely different coming up.
@FieryBalrog:
Please be a little patient. I know it's the nature of magic players to complain about their favorite archetype being to weak, but considering the amount of people playing a certain Deck and the percentage of them playing it well will not differ all to much when you look at blue and non-blue decks. The math has been done before and I am sure nothing has changed. A lot of people just enjoy blue Decks, and probably not for their achievements but the versatile options of plays.
I predict a rise of combo once brainstorm got banned. That's the day I'll join the crwod of people saying aggro is dead.
Combo not having BS would make it much more vulnerable to discard. Some combo decks, like SnT and Sneak and show, would downright die to discard if not because of Brainstorm.
The combo argument is old and has been proven wrong multiple times. It's why i don't bother anymore to discuss here, everything has already been discussed to death and beyond, and still some people arrive from nowhere and present the same ideas times and times again. At this point only an eventual unbanning would clear the debate, but that will probably be never the case and legacy will continue to be a format dominated to blue like it had since the split (before the split it wasn't).
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Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
The first fundamental principle of variance is that every deck can be improved by adding in cards that reduce variance or increase card quality.
Read that somewhere...
In legacy, you have the best tool for reducing variance available: Brainstorm. You also have the best selection of rock-solid mana-base construction (almost pain-free fetch-dual mana fixing.) Why wouldn't you avail yourself of Brainstorm given these two statements? In a nutshell: it makes my deck better, therefore I should play it.
I think Brainstorm is great, but I am by no means a die-hard 'blue' player. I'm not calling for it to be banned, nor am I saying it doesn't have a big effect on the format. It just 'is'. I think what is holding the format back (which I think is nicely diverse ATM, so not by much) is the lack of a similar card quality fixing card in other colors. I would argue that Sylvan Library is close to the same power level of Brainstorm, and could be argued is better. Slower, yes, costs more mana, yes, can't be activated at instant speed, yes. But it's still my library manipulation of choice. And that's what it boils down to: choice. Brainstorm gets play because people choose to use it, period. Because it's legacy and Brainstorm is badass. Because ripping a Brainstorm into a Force to counter Infernal Tutor makes you feel like a boss.
Me? I want Mind Twist and Black Vise legal. Lets see what the format does with some outdated 'overpowered' cards.
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Re: All B/R update speculation.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
Mr. Safety
I would argue that Sylvan Library is close to the same power level of Brainstorm, and could be argued is better. Slower, yes, costs more mana, yes, can't be activated at instant speed, yes. But it's still my library manipulation of choice. And that's what it boils down to: choice. Brainstorm gets play because people choose to use it, period.
Yeah, man. It's just, like, a matter of taste. You know, some people like the Stones, some like the Beatles, man.
Quote:
Seriously? Brainstorm AGAIN?!
Aggro is dead, huh? The meta-games shifted a lot during the last two or three months and will keep doing so. With the print of DRS bug decks got more popular, but considering the period of time they have been popular you're just crying about the hype of a new and exciting card. Please stay calm and wait a little. With the next set released there might be something completely different coming up.
Aggro's been dead for a hell of a lot longer than 3 months. Mav wasn't an aggro deck. Zoo died summer of '11.
Quote:
Originally Posted by
DragoFireheart
Brainstorm Legacy != Brainstorm in Vintage.
Jace is legal in Legacy but was banned in Standard when it was in the legal set. Therefore, JTMS Legacy != JTMS Standard.
Trinisphere is restricted in Vintage but not banned in Legacy. Therefore, Trinisphere Legacy != Trinisphere Vintage
You don't understand that cards legal in different formats also have different power levels. Therefore, comparing the impact a card has in one format is pointless and meaningless.
Not only is it not "pointless and meaningless" (there are plenty of things you can learn from comparing across formats), it was only one small shard of my argument, not the central pillar on which I built everything. I have no idea why you fixated on it.
