Alphastryk said he'd do one. But I got another week off, before university starts again - so I could easily write one too.
Greetings
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Alphastryk said he'd do one. But I got another week off, before university starts again - so I could easily write one too.
Greetings
If anyone was to write a primer, I think you'd be somewhere near the top of the list for best to do it.Quote:
Originally Posted by Einherjer
I'd do it, but I can't write coherently, nor play Magic.
I agree that Einherjer is more than qualified to write the Primer.Quote:
Originally Posted by YamiJoey
super short and quick report at LGS
12 post
people still play this deck? Jesus Christ. Lost to no-ugin-tutored Emrakul game 1, rushed him with flying Angels game 2, lost game 3.
WUR delver
this guy played like he's playing standard, trying to hurry me into missing triggers, good thing that didn’t work. Lost game 1, won game 2 and 3, Runed Halo doing work against TNN. TNN ended up being pitched to FoW. At one point I had to use Runed halo to name SFM because I’ve got nothing in my hand and he had SoFI and SFM on the table. The halo bought me enough turns to complete the comeback.
Shardless BUG
Flashing Clique and Snapcaster took care of Liliana. At one point, he got to Brainstorm setting up Agent into Vision, but he squandered the juice he drew, when he played DRS and Goyf into my floating Verdict. Runed halo would be fine against Liliana.
Omni
Game 1 fought the counter war, I put on pressure, he sculpted his hand for Dream halls on the stack with 2 cards in his hand, I only had Brainstorm in my hand, but I casted it into Clique to luck sac win. Game 2 I kept 1 land with top and counters, lost, missed many land drops. When he Dream halls into Enter on the stack, I should have respond with Disenchant first, hold priority, then FoW. Game 3 canonist hate went out early, then CBT with Clique floating, he couldn't break out before my pressure got there.
In retrospect, you need some CMC 3 cards other than Clique to have CB flip to a Show and tell, assuming you win the initial counter war pre-CBT. Therefore, might want to leave in at least 1 EtA in SB games. Overall, Runed halo experiment’s been going nicely. Previously I’ve considered Nodes but didn’t like it.
Please do, no disrespect to Alphastryk but We can always combine both primers if something is missing on the Source can we not?Quote:
Originally Posted by Einherjer
What's your list, Twn?
-Matt
http://www.mtgthesource.com/forums/s...l=1#post787945Quote:
Originally Posted by sdematt
The Nodes in SB is now a Halo.
Really awkward day yesterday, facing three Burn decks and losing to two of them. My draws weren't great (I only saw 4 Counterbalances between all three matches, despite two mulls to five) however I was pretty tired, so I'm sure I played well under optimal as well. Two losses came from t1 -> t2 Goblin Guide and despite having a turn 3 Terminus both games, it wasn't enough to recoup the 10 damage in either case. One loss was a misplay where I Plowed a Grimlavancer, leaving myself at 2 life and hellbent with Clique and Jace (a bad situation, but I should have bounced the Grim with Jace, leaving Plow my own Clique as an out to his topdecks).
Regardless, it's been a while since I've battled a deck where I've missed having Pierce. Perhaps my aversion to Spell Pierce is more of a meta call than I'd previously thought, due to constantly battling SFM and GBx based decks (where I think Pierce under performs).
Most likely I'm just going to have to give in to Pierce when I expect a certain field. Swan Song, Spell Snare, and Counterspell are all possible hard counter alternatives, but are each less appealing for various reasons.
Why? Did he just turn around and cast another after your FoW?Quote:
Originally Posted by twndomn
Also @Joe, I just saw that "Fighting Over Nothing" video and it was packed with a lot of really awesome plays. I always love to see the crazy stuff that Venser can pull off. I have one question though. Around 11:00, why not double Pierce his FoW as opposed to REBing it? In hindsight, this play works out even better than anticipated because holding one REB is much, much better than holding the one Pierce (as it turned out). Even if we didn't have to use the second Pierce though, the case that I would make is that holding the one REB is probably still better than even holding both Pierces (especially since we know their Venser is likely to cause trouble later on).
Thanks for all the praise everybody, but alphastryk has already done the work - and it would be a totally bitchy move to write a whole primer on my own now. He said he'd only miss a few pieces, so I say we wait for him and his primer - and if some areas are covered insufficiently or left out I'll write the pieces left.
Greetings
Sorry for the delays on the primer - real life has kept me busy. I'll try to get a draft shared to get some other input soon.
Thanks! I think I speak for a few of us that it's desperately needed.Quote:
Originally Posted by alphastryk
After playing with it quite a bit on MTGO, and at local events (where my only real trouble was with Death and Taxes, admittedly a weak point of this type of build), I decided to take this list to St. Louis over the weekend. I'd been going back and forth on whether to run Moat or Humility in the board, and went with Humility here since my experience of St. Louis Opens is they're a bit more combo-heavy and that's not where Moat shines.
And... let me just say up-front that my involvement with paper Magic is, at this point, 99% judging. I try to hit the North American Legacy GP each year, and one or two weekends where I'll judge a Standard Open and play the Legacy. And I don't know if y'all were paying attention, but the St. Louis Standard Open got 762 players and ran 11 rounds of Swiss. As a team lead and as the only L3 not acting as Head Judge or stage admin staff, I was busy from before 9AM to after midnight.
All of which is to say that I was incredibly exhausted on Sunday, which is not where you really want to be piloting Miracles. I still managed to have a pretty good run most of the day, until the wheels just finally fell off in round 6. I took back-to-back losses to Reanimator, then just sat and stupidly stared at the board as a mono-white Metalworker ran me over in the X-3 bracket, and at that point I dropped and started asking staff if they wanted me to pick up anything for them from the Culver's up the road.
So a full tournament report probably isn't that interesting, and is going to involve a lot of "I wasn't really awake in this match and punted as a result". But I still wanted to throw out some highlights:
Round 2 was the first of a few "I shouldn't win this matchup but did" moments, 2-0'ing an inexperienced Goblins player. He was R/W and never managed to draw into a Thalia, missed a couple triggers and once didn't get Ringleader with Matron. Both games, Jace went the distance.
Round 4, I was paired up against an incredibly nice and friendly guy, who opened the match on Mountain, Lava Spike. And I sighed and got ready to be beaten into the ground by Burn, and then proceeded to 2-0 the match. Game 1 involved possibly the best blind flip of my life, countering a Price of Progress with only 4 two-drops left in the deck; a couple turns later he managed to land a Sulfuric Vortex while ahead on life, and then Flame Rifted to try to seal the deal. That turned out to cost him the game, as it put him low enough that I could hard cast Entreat for 1 and win the race with the Angel token.
Game 2, I stabilized with the lock at 2 (!) life, and proceeded to go on an epic run of countering or destroying every single thing he spent mana on for the rest of the game. Toward the end I had three Tops in play in order to play around attempts to respond to flipping them. At one point I was floating a Rest in Peace to stop random Flame Rift and Price of Progress and then he and I both realized at the same moment that he had a Barbarian Ring and threshold. I instinctively Topped in response to the activation, and he joked that it would be pretty impressive if I could counter that. I then proceeded to use up my next few events' worth of luck by finding the lone Snapcaster as the third card, drawing it, flashing it in and Plowing it to get up to 4 life. A few turns later I found and protected a Clique that went all the way.
In Round 5 I was up against Reanimator and in one of the games I had a difficult choice that I'm still thinking over. I had survived two Griselbrands hitting the field, and during his main phase he'd resolved a Lim-Dul's Vault while I was tapped out. He kept the third pile he looked at. My turn, I drew a Clique, and debated whether to slam it right away or hold until his draw. Ultimately I chose to Clique in his draw step, thinking it was more likely he'd left serious gas on top and I should get rid of it. Except in response to the Clique trigger he Entombed for Griselbrand, then cast Goryo's Vengeance; I don't know and didn't ask whether he had both in hand (and was going for disruption), or had just one and had stacked the other (and if so, which). I ended up losing that match, largely by having my hand ripped apart repeatedly.
Round 6 was Reanimator again. Game 1 I kept a somewhat loose hand in the dark, and he had Griselbrand on turn two. Game 2 I won the counter war over his first attempt with Swan Song, and he started beating me down with the token; I stuck a Clique but was going to lose the race. It came down to a point where we were both at 4 life; he attacked with the token, I attempted a Pyroblast, and he cracked a fetch to respond, then realized he was now dead on board to Clique. Game 3 I realized how tired I was when I completely forgot I had a Misdirection in hand that could have bought me at least a turn, and another "Oops I Griselbranded" moment ensued.
Metagame-wise, saw a ton of Deathblade all over the room. It is unsurprising, given what the field seemed to look like, that decks which can power out turn-one Blood Moon did so well.
Oddball things you see in large Legacy events: the guy sitting next to me at the player meeting registered a list that included a lot of ramp and Panglacial Wurm. Later in the day when I was still X-1 (don't remember exactly which round), I heard the player to my right announce the trigger from a Kiora emblem. I looked over and saw Kiora and Stasis on the table.
I have been trying miracles lately but somehow i find myself losing to mongoose quite a fair bit. With their hand full of spell pierces, dazes, fow, counterbalance seem impossible to land. Stifle just deals with terminus so well. I know that players who play lotsa miracles would think RUG delver is a good matchup. Need some general advice, thanks
yup, Mongoose is an old bitch against us, but nowadays Miracle plays 2+ EE, 2+ Rest in Peace, 4 Terminus and 1 Supreme Verdict to deal with.
They Stifle your Terminus? Jacestorm/Brainstorm/Snapstorm to put it back on the top and then Terminus again...
Overall, Mongoose is something basically played by RUG players and RUG is a sinking ship nowadays, so... again.. more then on Counterbalance, you should focus on landing a Rest in Peace and then, just StP his Delvers..
Yup. RiP nurturing 2/3rds of their creatures really helps. A 1/1 Mongoose and a 0/1 Tarmogoyf are not that scary and you have plenty of ways of dealing with Delver. And if they are using their Stifles on your miracles and not your fetches than :laugh: at them!Quote:
Originally Posted by Poron
EDIT: So is the RiP Helm version strictly for graveyard heavy metas nows?
Quote:
Originally Posted by mike1987
* Go with these in the MD: 2 Terminus + 2 Supreme Verdict, 1 EE.
* Post board 3 RiP should turn Mongeese into eternal 1/1ers.
* Try to not walk into their Stifles be fetching for basics not only when they're tapped out, but also in response to their Ponders/Brainstorms
* board out all but 1-2 Jaces - he's simply to vulnerable (when tons of taxing counters + REBs/Pyros).
* CB+Top is super scary for them, so protect those by any means.
* Supreme Verdict is supreme here and should be timed to eat at least 2 guys
* RiP should buy you enough time for them to over extend.
* REB/Pyro their BS when they have a fetch out, as they will often be able to shuffle away completely dead cards (excess land, mid-game Dazes, etc.) turning BS into pseudo-Ancestrals
* Your main goal is to buy time and reach the midgame as unharmed as possible
* Knowing what hands to keep is a big plus: you DO want STPs and basics more than anything
* sample god hand VS RUG: 2 Island, 1 Plains, 1 RiP, 2 STP, 1 BS (slow roll it and play around Daze)
* FoW their T1 Delvers under any circumstances, unless you're holding double STP
* Most RUG players won't FoW back (which I believe is a mistake), as Delver is what gives them a shot at smashing our faces imo
* RUG is actually a favorable MU so don't be scared by them
"FoW their T1 Delvers under any circumstances, unless you're holding double STP"
Care to elaborate, lol? I havn't ever done this once in all my time with playing Miracles. Plus I think that it's an outstandingly bad play.
Greetings
Turn 1 Delver is their scariest play imo, since it poses the fastest clock / the easiest way to bring us in burn range, the biggest obstacle to remain as unharmed as possible until you reach Supreme Verdict mana ressources, assemble CB+Top etc.Quote:
Originally Posted by Einherjer
FoWing it may seem odd at first sight, but consider that they:
a) do not have mana to Pierce back for profit
b) if they Daze they will lose essential tempo - obv. Dazing on turn 1 has a massively bigger impact than doing so on turn 3 for instance.
c) resolving an early threat and protect is what RUG does best, countering their trump before it hits the field actually is a bit like countering discard outlets against Dredge.
You could argue that FoW should be saved for counter backing up your Terminuses, but then again those usually require a certain setup, are indeed Stiflable and RUG will likely have accumulated more counters than you at that point.
Maybe I stressed this approach a tad to much by stating "under any circumstances", but the general line of play certainly is not "an outstandingly bad play" whatsoever.
As I value your opinion (at least I did until you proposed to play UW over UWr -joking^^) I will try to understand your logic.Quote:
Originally Posted by klaus
Before I do so, I gotta admit that I died once to a T1 Delver. Yet this included various other factors, the most important being that my Opponent was Samuele Estratti, master of Mind-Tricks. It involved him mulliganning very low and scooping to my Balance+RIP+Top, while he manipulated my brain in such a way that I thought he was on Belcher/TinFins/Oops (or any other glasscanon-deck). So I did board out most of my removal, leaving me with no answer to his T1 Delver. Yet keep in mind, that scenarios like this happen not very often.
Ok, now onto the topic. You are clear-mindedly proposing to run into his Daze, because the risk of getting rid of their most fragile threat is worth it? Delver of Secrets dies to every single removalspell in our deck, ranging from Swords, Terminus and Verdict to EE, REB and whatever you might be bringing. Being killed by a Delver shows one of two things.
1) You have been mana-wrecked. But the threat doesn't matter if this is the case, any of their creatures could do that. But it's pretty hard to manawreck a 6+ Basicland-deck, while most of our removal costs 1 (one of the reasons why 4 Terminus is superior to any split with Verdict, as of now).
2) You did not find any of your numerous removal, despite Topping, Brainstorming, and Pondering. Well, shit happens. I had a game like this vs DnT at the GP. I just didn't find a single removal, and was beaten down by Thalia and Revoker. Does this mean I should worry about this creatures? No, no in the slightest. (btw I did win the g3, ofc)
Force of Will is a bad card, as long as we are not awefully behind. I value it's availibility to function even if we are getting manawrecked. But this does not mean it's a good card, especially if it's getting countered. Therefore I'd keep them for the last critical moment, not for the first - but this may come down to playstyles. Yet I cannot see how an aggressive playstyle fits in this deck, as it actually is a deck which is based upon patience.
And no, they will not lose Tempo if they Dazed your Force on their threat, never.
Thanks for the input, I will include a section about this decks philosophy alongside boardingplans in my next article.
Greetings
Actually I currently do not run any EEs, though it's a decent card. True: G2/3 is a different story, when you have REBs available.Quote:
Originally Posted by Einherjer
Countering Delver is not an aggressive play. Quite on the contrary: it is aimed at buying you enough time to be able to be patient.Quote:
Originally Posted by Einherjer
This confuses me quite a bit and I don't know where to start to explain that this is a fundamentally wrong assumption.Quote:
Originally Posted by Einherjer
I've been playing RUG myself and doing OK at local tourneys. Dazing on turn 1 is nice to protect your stuff, but it DOES take away a lot of tempo. Not being able to Pierce/Ponder/BS/Stifle etc. AND drop a threat on turn 2 is a major downside.
Not if you just got to Hymn to Tourach your opponent. You don't need to drop a threat on turn2 if you happened to have an opponent who felt like discarding two cards just to try getting rid of your Delver, while being okay with it being Dazed. Just the assumption of it being okay if its being dazed baffles me on several levels. On turn two you can then decide whether to keep Pierce/Snare up or Cantrip. It's just as good as ever.Quote:
Originally Posted by klaus
If you think that aggressively fighting over Delver on fucking turn 1 is a patience-play you might want to re-think this way of playing.
Greetings
RUG is designed specifically to allow the entire deck to operate on 1-2 mana. Dazing will not set them back.Quote:
Originally Posted by klaus
I tried for a few minutes to come up with scenarios where I Force the turn 1 Delver, but I really can only come up with:
"My opening hand has 3x Force of Will in it"
I am 100% on board with this. Forcing a t1 Delver is something I would almost never do. My preferred use of Force of Will against RUG Delver is to shuffle it away.Quote:
Originally Posted by Einherjer
Honestly, I board out Forces against RUG. I aim for redundancy in that matchup and generally I don't think the tempo of force really justifies the card disadvantage in that matchup. They run so many weak cards as the game goes on that it tends to be pretty easy to come ahead in that matchup.
I agree with the first sentence, not the last. If you don't play around Wasteland, Stifle, and Daze, there won't be a game to go on. There's an approach to go about it in this Match-Up, you can watch that Miracle stream from like... 8 months ago. In general, the idea is trying to just play land-go early game. There're many, many reasons as to why you should not cast any spells and/or break any fetches until you have some lands in play.Quote:
Originally Posted by Valtrix
In this match-up, a streamer mentioned it once the best: you can have 4 lands (may or may not produce Mana) in one turn, and then have 2 lands or no lands in a later turn.
I'm not Forcing anything turn one vs RUG. That seems awful. I just want to make land drops and maybe put a top on the board until about turn 4. If I get an opportunity to kill a threat without playing into Daze / Pierce, I'll take it but the main plan is to just develop my mana.
So what you're saying is that it 's hard if you play badly? Okay, sure. So it's an easy MU.Quote:
Originally Posted by twndomn
Ima Force their T1 Brainstorm woop woop, y'all!
I'm sticking with just Forcing Stifles in G1. It's a good use of keeping your Land in play when you're most vulnerable to it, or just have dead cards on top and want the shuffle, and sometimes it's good against a really late Goyf/Goose when you're out of stuff to do and aren't sure you can deal with it, nor take 8. Either way they come out.
Also; if they Daze a T1 Force then we have to have a follow up StP with White. If not they keep their Delver and just Pierce us out of the game very rapidly as we sit there with next to no cards in hand. T1 Delver is a ballache, and Forcing it isn't the worst thing you can do, but you damn sure need to have something good to do to dig your way to not losing the game.
Thanks for the tips guys. Any idea where I can find this vid stream you are talking about?Quote:
Originally Posted by twndomn
Yeah, pretty much this actually. I can only think of three times I'd FoW against RUG: To stop a critical Stifle, to resolve my only Counterbalance, or to FoW back if they've decided that something is important enough for them to FoW first. Not only should you not be casting FoW on t1, but you probably should not be casting anything until t3 (unless they tap out and you can play around Daze or something). RUG playing a t1 Delver, having you FoW it, and them Dazing you not only doesn't set them back at all but is probably the best thing that could have possibly happened to them that whole day. They will happily replay that Volcanic Island and hold up Spell Pierce for the rest of the game. Not to beat a dead horse, but it's basically up there with Misdirecting a Hymn to Tourach in terms of blowout potential.Quote:
Originally Posted by YamiJoey
If you search back in the thread (maybe like a dozen or two dozen pages..?) you'll find a big chunk where people are discussing the RUG matchup.Quote:
Originally Posted by mike1987
http://www.twitch.tv/oarsman79 is the steam.
meh I lose :laugh:
thanks for the extensive feedback on my wrong assumption.
I could definitely justify forcing a delver if I am on the play and can therefor pay for a daze on their turn. I would have to have a really slow hand, with no StpS and another really bad blue card (like another force) though. Force easily the worst card in our deck against RUG so if I drew 2 of them G1 in an otherwise good hand, I wouldn't mind 2 for 1ing myself to counter a delver and buy myself a lot of time.
honestly against RUG, since they can't remove enchantments at all, I prefer to be sure to resolve a RiP and watch them bet anything on Delver.
Counterbalance helps too.. (Snare, Pierce, Bolt are all cold to CB), FoW.. is not so usefull
Using FoW to protect your key spells that can ruin their deck seems like the best use for it, be it RiP, Counterbalance, or an Entreat.
Playing with this deck this evening in my second event with Miracles. I was previously on Esper Deathblade and had played that deck to moderate success a couple years ago when I was playing Legacy heavily. I took a break and am now making a return to this amazing format.
When I saw the Miracles deck at Grand Prix Paris, I fell in love. Haven't looked back since.
I really like the main deck a lot. I only miss having main deck Pyroblasts and Red Elemental Blasts in mirror matches (I'm on Spell Pierce otherwise). The Ponder - despite oarsman's disapproval as noted during his stream - I've come to value having, making the deck more consistent. I do agree with his assesment though; that having Ponder encourages you to want to play one turn one, opening you against an unknown opponent to potential trouble. However, the same can be argued regarding Sensei's Top, too. However, so long as you don't let yourself fall into the trap of just jamming a Ponder as soon as you see one, I think the card is fine and not only helps make the deck more consistent, but gives the Snapcaster Mage's more to eat.
Primarily being a Standard player though, it's hard for me not to add more land. But, I understand why not to. lol.
I suppose the most trouble I have with this deck is what to select for a sideboard and subsequently, how to sideboard. My local metagame features a couple Delver decks, Death & Taxes, a UW old-school control deck, some storm decks, and occasionally a Reanimater deck. This is my current sideboard. All help appreciated.
Sideboard:
2 Flusterstorm
1 Vendilion Clique
1 Swan Song
1 Terminus (or Supreme Verdict)
1 Entreat the Angels
2 Rest in Peace (should I play three?)
1 Wear//Tear (Disenchant?)
2 Red Elemental Blast
1 Pyroblast
2 Engineered Explosives (been pretty happy with these - brought in against Storm and blew up all his artifact mana)
1 Grafdigger's Cage (third RiP?)
Is there any argument for having an Oblivion Ring (can't be blasted) or Detention Sphere?
Do you leave Supreme Verdict in the deck in mirror matches to increase odds of countering an opposing Jace with Counterbalance?
Is the Stoneforge Mystic-into-Batterskull plan worth while?
Thanks all! Glad to be playing Legacy again. Quickly becoming my favorite format.
Keep the 2 Rip/1 Cage. Cage is such a good card that does a little more than RiP, but also allows you to just drop it earlier and beat out various things like Reanimator on the draw with the nuts. It's also really good to have against Dredge. Because it's Dredge and fuck Dredge.
I prefer Disenchant, but it depends on your mana-base and what you're doing. I don't expect to Fuse it too often, and Disenchant casts from Basics much easier. (I play a Mountain, but whatever.) In my total deck I have access to 4 StP, 4 Terminus, 2 Verdict, and a Pyroclasm. I would cut one Wrath at most, but with the meta like it currently is I want to beat up True-Names, and 1-mana Wraths dodge Tax effects, and Verdict dodges everything. I have played 3 StP main and 1 board, and have also played 4 StP with a Path in the board. Generally, I think Verdict is way too good to pass up, so definitely ensure you have one. I'm not keen on double Engi, but that's you. I also never leave home without a Pithing Needle. Best sideboard card ever printed
In general, the lesser fair decks in your local, the better oarsman's version becomes.Quote:
Originally Posted by DalamarTheDark
No reason to run an O-Ring/DS if you don't run Enlightened Tutor.
If you feel the need to use SFM package in SB games, perhaps you should just play Ein's list.
I usually cut all Terminus and have 2 Supreme Veridcts post-board in the mirror. Helps deal with Angels and having more 4cmc is nice.Quote:
Originally Posted by DalamarTheDark
I haven't tried the SFM SB, but I briefly tried SFM MD. It is good in some places, but it felt pretty unnecessary overall.
Why have I never tried this? Upping to 5 4-drops is quite good, and having outs to the various things we don'y want to see will always be good.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dzra
Also I despised the Stoneblade experiment. Tutor for a Batterskull to counter a Force? Deal. Everything else was crap.
I play a D-Sphere in my sideboard. It's a good catch all answer, as we can struggle against all manner of things, from 'Walkers, to Sylvan Library, to killing a bunch of Angel tokens. It helps to fight against the better draws of other decks without having to lean so heavily on Counterbalance or Force of Will. It's also good against Show and Tell decks. I kind of really liked it in my main deck, and may port it back in over the 4th Ponder.
Bringing in Supreme Verdict simply to counter Jace via Balance and deal with Angels is wrong.
Firstly, bringing in cards simply to reveal them with Counterbalance without them having a good use in the MU is wrong. Supreme Verdict has no use in the mirror, so bringing it in is wrong. Make sure to resolve a Counterbalance, and don't worry about what you could reveal once you got that Balance. That's a totally wrong approach.
Secondly it is wrong to bring in cards against Angels. You don't keep Terminus in either, and yes, Verdict has some upsides, so it's better than Terminus. Better than bad is still bad, you know?
Thirdly, don't worry about how to deal with Angels as soon as they resolve, you should have enough ways to keep it from resolving. Plus you have EE - which has a different main use - deal with Counterbalance.
Greetings