It's a better chimeric idol, but still nowhere good enough. Factories, bloodghast, nether spirit, tombstalker, the new delver dude, all are better.
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It's a better chimeric idol, but still nowhere good enough. Factories, bloodghast, nether spirit, tombstalker, the new delver dude, all are better.
I agree that it is not enough on its own, but the point is that you don't play WoC for the combo ; you play it if in your meta WoC is already merely playable (ex lot of Burn, discard...) AND because it gets even better with Chains.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hardcore
I don't design my deck for kitchen games, only to improve my win rates against the best decks of the format...
I agree with Hardcore, the card is just not goodQuote:
Originally Posted by ParisFlorian
- It only does something if the opponent has cards in hand, so it has serious lategame diminishing returns just like any other discard spell (thoughtseize etc)
- It only does something if the opponent has untapped mana available to cast a spell
Both of these factors make the card incredibly situational
You say it's good against burn, but only when
A) Your opponent passed the turn to you with cards in hand
B) Your opponent has mana available to cast spells that are in their hand
C) Your opponent can't use up all their mana/cards in response to the word of command
I don't think most opponents will not be sandbagging cards in their hand vs the mono-black discard deck. Unless your objective is to word of command their draw step to make them Lava Spike themselves? It just seems way too situational
It is good with Chains/Brainstorm but this is such a niche corner case; if you have Chains out and your opponent is drawing Brainstorms then you should be ahead anyway. If you want to play a card that's a great combo with Chains I think Geier Reach Sanitarium should be way better than this
The problem I found with Chimeric mass isn't the activation cost. Though 1 beats 3, for other activated costs. It's the casting cost. If x is too low, it's useless. If you want something beefy, you're probably not going to cast anything else that turn. It also turns into a catastrophic tempo loss if you make a 5/5 Construct only for it to go plowing your farm. In my tests, the X mana cost became too steep and high risk. Phyrexian Totem ended up being my go to in my older builds, though, many years ago, my ultimate first 3 turns were Dark ritual -> Chimeric Idol, Smallpox their first land and threat while discarding Nether Spirit, swing for 3, turn 3 hymn to tourach. It was brutal.Quote:
Originally Posted by Mr. Safety
Let me play Devil's Advocate a little bit here...I don't think the 'dies to removal' argument has ever been persuasive, certainly not for me. It's a tempo loss no matter how you shape it if your dude gets plowed.Quote:
Originally Posted by OmniStrata
I get that Idol has a '0' activation, but you have to tap all your lands. It is *likely* that if you are tapping your lands for Idol you have no other plays, or you are doing your plays pre-combat. I don't think it's a real issue with most of the spells. Thinking about it deeper, Chimeric Mass is strictly better in terms of potential. You can still pay 3 mana and have a 3/3, albeit costing 1 to activate. However, it's a fantastic mana-sink that scales up in a big way in the mid-late game. We aren't going to activate our Idol OR Mass in the face of potential removal; we play too few threats to risk that without clearing the way with discard first (or the threat recurs, like Nether Spirit/Bloodghast/Bitterblossom.) Your sequence above works just as easily with Chimeric Mass, provided you draw into a land in your first 3 turns.
In all honesty, the difference in activation cost is pretty small, basically negligible in my opinion. The truth is both options are pretty bad when compared to other threats we could be playing. I think even Gurmag Angler is better than both, and we don't even discuss that card in here because it doesn't have evasion like Tombstalker/Necropolis Fiend.
EDIT: Maybe we're saying the same thing, just differently? I mean, I know you aren't advocating Chimeric Idol for the newer era of pox...
That sounds amazing. I played Chimeric Idol a few years ago and have no cool stories to share. Although lately I am jamming Totem and loving every minute of it.Quote:
Originally Posted by OmniStrata
One problem I have been facing lately with Pox has been the repercussions of greedy manabase. 12 double black spells were made difficult with 8 colorless sources. Even with Urborg expelling darkness across the land we are still vulnerable to Wasteland, Blood Moon, Big Thalia and a ton of other things.
Former manabase:
13 Swamp
4 Mishra's Factory
4 Urborg, Tomb of Yawgmoth
4 Wasteland
1 Maze of Ith
Current List:
20 Swamp
4 Mishra's
2 Maze
4 LotV
2 LtLH
2 Karn
2 Cursed Scroll
2 Ensnaring Bridge
2 Phyrexian Totem
1 Bitterblossom
2 Fatal Push
3 Innocent Blood
1 Inquisition of Kozilek
2 Thoughtseize
2 Collective Brutality
4 Hymn to Tourach
4 Smallpox
1 Toxic Deluge
Sideboard
2x Pithing Needle
2x Damping Sphere
1x Extirpate
1x Bitterblossom
1x Bontu's Last Reckoning
1x Diabolic Edict
2x Lost Legacy
4x Leyline of the Void
1x Night of Souls' Betrayal
Last Night's Weekly:
Dredge
G1 Lost the roll against a known Dredger. Hand is 4 Swamps, Thoughtseize, Lil' V, Ensnaring Bridge. Looting discarding 2 Dredgers. Swampass. Turn 2 he flipped Narco, C Therapy, Bridge from Below and Dredgers. Therapy blindly named Ensnaring Bridge. This is the drawback of being a known Poxer.
Out 4 Hymn, 2 Thoughtseize, 1 Smallpox, 1 Collective Brutality, 1 Innocent Blood
In 4 Leylines, 2 Lost Legacy, 1 Extirpate, 1 Night of Soul's Betrayal, 1 Bontu's Last.
G2 I mulled away an unkeepable and found a hand with 3 Swamps, Smallpox, C Scroll and IOK. Swamp pass. Land, Putrid Imp. I can't afford to let that outlet stick around and dude plays 12 lands so I take the opportunity to nuke the board. Responds by dumping 2 Dredgers and a 3rd to SPox. It keeps him landless for a while but he doesn't actually need mana to win. He Dredges into a Narco and Bridge. I drop a Scroll and pass. Dredge pass. Eventually the 3/1 Hasty Horror jawn makes it's way into the yard off of a Cephalid Threshold pop. Maze of Ith (and a combat math mistake) holds it down for Lil' V. 4 Zombies happen by the time I Extirpated the Bridges from Below (2 by now). My 2 Factories outclassed his 4 Zombies long enough to find a Leyline of the Void, Lily & Bridge. He scooped.
G3 My opener was 4 Swamps, I Blood, C Scroll and an Extirpate. I mulled it away. Even though it had a sideboard card my opponent hates that hand doesn't actually do anything and loses to both turn 1s he already had. My 6 was 3 Swamps, Fatal Push, SPox, Night of Soul's Betrayal. Awesome. LED, pass. Topdeck a Factory. Played it and passed. EoT crack LED drop some things. Dredged for a few more turns and got his game going and then I stuck a NoSB. Turns off so much. IOKed a looting, stuck a Karn. Upticked for a bit, found another Factory. Activated both Factories, downticked for a Karnstruct, play another Karn, downtick for another token. Next turn make another and drop a scroll, beat face.
It's been a while since I beat Dredge so this felt nice. Leylines put in work but NoSB was the MVP. 2-1
Thalia Stompy
G1 Won the die roll against a known. 3 Swamps, Push, IB, Hymn, Lil' V. White Eldrazi has never been a problem for me but my sideboard is slightly less anti-creature than before. Swamp pass. Petal, Temple, Thalia. Swampass. Tomb, Thought-Knot. Respond by pushing Thalia. He exiles Lily. Draw another IB. Swamp, IB, trigger, draw and play Bitterblossom. Thought-Knot, strip an IB, pass. Draw Lil' V, -2 draw a Collective Brutality. Nothing for a turn or so. Third-Knot Seer peels a Push and Chalice on 2 mitigates my hand. Faeries & Factories won with Maze & Lily support.
Out 1 Hymn, SP & IOK
In Diabolic Edict, Bontu's, 2nd Bitterblossom.
G2 He snap kept and I mulled away a hand that was dead to Chalice on 1. 3 Swamps, Push, TSeize, Scroll and a Lil' V. The 6 consisted of 3 Swamps, Push, Collective Brutality & a Smallpox. T1 Tomb, Thorn of Amethyst. Draw, swamp, pass. T2 Thalia. Draw a Factory and play it. Big mistake. T3 Waste my Factory, swing for 2, Petal, Hero of Bladehold. Draw whatever it doesn't matter you see where this went.
G3 Turn 2 Bitterblossom defined the game. Factories and Faeries beat through 2 TKSs and a Reality Smasher with a Jitte. Phyrexian Totem helped close it out.
2-1
Death & Taxes (known)
G1 I always feel confident in this matchup but when you lose the die roll and your opponent puts her T1 Rishadan Port down sideways to toss out a Vial you know it's gonna suck. Swamp, pass. T2 Vial tickup, land, pass tap swamp. Swamp, pass, EoT Mom, push your mom. T3 Vial tickup, land, pass tap a swamp. Swamp, pass, EoT that 3/3 Angel thing. Push that Angel thing. T4 Vial tickup, pass tap 2 swamps. Cursed Scroll with a lot of cards in hand. Vial in Mirrodin Crusader. This is where it gets hazy and I eventually lose.
TOut 1 Bitterblossom, 1 Totem and (probably) 1 Hymn, 1 Small Pox.
2 Needles, Bontu's, NoSB.
G2 Opener curved Cursed Scroll, Hymn, Toxic Deluge. The Hymn hit nothing relevant. I held off the Deluge to maximize value and mistakenly fired it off for 2 instead of 4 with a live Stoneforge Mystic and BSkull in hand. I thought the SFM was still sick but I was wrong. Lost to a Germ.
0-2
Miracles (known)
G1 My opponent started drawing cards for a while before tapping out for Back to Basics turn 3. I was pretty sure they don't play Daze and was attempting to force the Force with Bitterblossom but it stuck. Man am I happy it did. Shortly thereafter I dropped a Bridge and a Lil' Veil. My opponent then proceed to get about 6 bodies wide but they could do nothing as the Faeries ended the game. He dug and dug for Terminus but it never appeared. Late-game Brainstrom drew him 3 copies of Force. Ended the game with 7 Faeries, 2 Factories (1 perma tapped, 1 waiting) and a Totem.
Out 1 IB, 1 SPox, 2 ???
In 2 Needles, Bitterblossom, Bontu
G2 T1 Needle Jace. T2 Cursed Scroll and then my opponent sucessfully Predicted a blind Swamp off the top. It was kinda cool. Fast forward he dropped a Gideon (the one that makes Ally tokens and Ult's an anthem- I don't know white cards) and started farting out 2/2s. Bitterblossom only made two tokens before it and the Needle were Wore // Tore. By now I had a 2nd Crused Scroll and I needed it because he played a Jace. Faeries and Scrolls took out Gideon and a total of two JtMS's before one of my Scrolls was Snap // Wear'd and a Faerie Sworded. Once that happened the tempo shifted and he took over. My 2nd Needle on Jace was also blown up. With bodies on the ground, I attempted to play to my outs but in retrospect I should have scooped. My out was pretty much Deluge or Bontu's but by the time I drew them naturally the deck that did little beyond draw cards would have undoubtedly found a force.
G3 Totem T3, Lil' Hope T4. I controlled the early game heartily with a healthy hand and an advancing board but went to turns.
I misplayed around Prowess in a game I won and in a game I already lost. I killed Jace a bunch. I would consider that a win.
1-1-1
2-1-1
Playing 20 Swamps felt incredible. I noted which lands were replacing Urborgs and which replaced Wastelands and was able to keep 2 more hands than I would have otherwise kept. These were both games I won against (the nonbasic hating) Thalia Stompy. The Back to Basics would have stopped an otherwise keepable manabase of Urborg, 2x Wasteland. It shined the most in the face of Back to Basics but both my 2nd & 3rd round opponents had underutilized Wastelands at the end of multiple games. I will continue with this manabase for a little while.
Good job. I think 18 swamp is enough, considering you don't play Pox. Add two Urborg to get more utility out of the non - basics.
I drove home considering this. I think I will try 1-2 next week.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hardcore
I wonder if I should get a pair of jackboots.
Did your phone auto-correct Karn, Scion of Urza into Jackboots?Quote:
Originally Posted by Hardcore
I had to look up what jackboots were.
Hello naynay666, nice report!
I've been facing manabase problems too, but I agree with Hardcore, you should at least consider running a couple copies of Urborg.
I also used to feel confident in the D&T matchup, but I lost all my recent games against it. Sometimes its their mana denial plan, sometimes it's just Batterskull.
About your list:
- How are you liking the collective brutalities and bitterblossom on main?
- Considering you run 13 cards that cost 3 or more without dark ritual, do you get cards stuck in hand?
I liked your list a lot. I've been considering running bitterblossom on maindeck too, so your feedback will be appreciated.
Whatup Uncle?Quote:
Originally Posted by itsvan
Collective Brutality originally replaced Sinkhole during a time which I was running into Delvers with Daze with annoying regularity. It started as a 2-of but was quickly a playset. It was great in that matchup and almost every other fair creature deck with the exception of Big Red or Eldrazi (still ok). I was running 1 Nether Spirit and 1 Bloodghast (and 3 Rituals) at the time so I had a couple extra cards to ease Escalation costs. When I shifted away from those I dropped down to 2 to make room for Karn.
I view it as being kinda good at everything but it isn’t super strong everywhere. Often side at least 1 out. It is a very fun card to play though. Kills a lot of relevant creatures, especially after a kamikaze Factory. It also checks out what your opponent has going on but can be worse than Duress. Life gain is life gain. Most importantly it gives you a headsup if Liliana is safe or if you should reconsider. “You aren’t escalating?” is almost reliably “Not worth countering.”
Awesome against Elves and SFM decks. All modes annoyingly relevant against Burn and most Delvers.
Bitterblossom is a new addition but holy hell I am a fan. Flying is much stronger than I had considered. Disposable chump blockers keep the Walkers safe and their power is low enough to fly over the Bridge.
It is a great turn 2 play, especially after a Thoughseize. It makes the reactive deck passively aggressive. No great late but amazing after a Bridge. Although if you have 3 turns or less to survive, it is not the card you want. I was jamming 1 main 2 side, but was convinced to swap 1 for a lone Diabolic Edict.
Holy hell 13 cards sounds like a lot. There was a turn 4 that I wanted to play a Karn with a Maze instead of mana, but I didn’t run into any issues with missing a turn 3 play. I was activating 2 Cursed Scrolls with ease. Phyrexian Totem is still around to help with mana. I haven’t really missed Dark Ritual since I removed it B.K. (Before Karn). Speaking of which there are times when Karn causes a glut of cards in my hand, but it’s why he is there. If Bridge is out you play around it. If Scroll is out you play around it.
I am going to incorporate 2 copies of Urborg.
One thing I forgot to mention about 20 (18) Swamps was how good it makes Smallpox feel. For lack of a better word it feels streamlined. Reliably more castable and easier to make sacrificial decisions.
I play Pox. Is there anything more evil in magic? I rip my opponents deck and gameplan to pieces, and when they beg for mercy i play yet another Pox*. (it's not for fun** but I got to bring down their hand size so they die to shrieking affliction, you know).Quote:
Originally Posted by naynay666
My deck sleeves are the King in yellow, which is appropriate, but my deck box is a pink - skull one. Not good. How can I make my enemies tremble of fear with that? I could get a black one but black is a bit pale. It would have been so great to have a box in human skin. Properly harvested...
Jackboots is another way to signal evilness.
**that's why it's called "merciless",
*evil is not all fun. Often it is necessary cruelty. Ie. Work.
A pro-tip for those of you that play Bitterblossom; side it out against Mono-B opponents. If you don't you risk feeling silly when the BB get countered by Engineered Plague on fairies.
"It's not work if you enjoy it."Quote:
Originally Posted by Hardcore
Nice report NayNay
The swamps in place of Urborg/Waste seems smart, though sad to see Wastelands go. It seems like a lot of your matchups were matchups where wasteland isn't that strong, but still. The 8 colorless lands is kinda clunky. Maybe since Wasteland is more of just a spell sometimes, you could cut 2 lands in general?
W/o wastes or sinks, I think we become much more of a traditional control deck, but more based in permanents (especially planeswalkers) than in the hand. Seems like a strong strategy, since without going all in on sinkholes the mana denial was more of a stall tactic anyway. The place it worked well was things like Delver or Turbodepths. If we lean into this plan, maybe more bridges and bitterblossoms could be good, since they protect the walkers? maybe 4-2 or 3-2?
I like the innovation, please keep reporting back!
Thanks for the well thought response naynay666!
I'll make sure to keep it in mind before my next tournament.
@everyone
About sideboarding, does anybody have an updated guide or some tips against the most popular decks?
I play with the a more controlling list and usually finding out what comes in is not a problem. I often have trouble deciding what to cut, especially when Hymn to Tourach is involved.
I read the information on the first page of this primer and on mtgsalvation, but both seem outdated.
Generally speaking there are no new cards and no new tactics. While you could just copy the sideboard from any deck list online the fine tuning would still be left to you.Quote:
Originally Posted by itsvan
For that step I recommend this article https://www.channelfireball.com/arti...-sideboarding/
I can add that it is no sin to board in cards without taking any out. I do that frequently; for example when I want to overload creature kills. I have with success played with a 67 card deck after Sideboarding. So I try to keep at least ten cards in the sideboard. At least that self-imposed limitation makes me think a little about what to replace and with what cards.
67 card deck? SACRILEGE!! :laugh: I've never thought of that... lol A long time ago, in a galaxy far far away, I thought running the 60 library limit was the most efficient way to get what you need. I'm thinking it'd work better with Karn since it draws all the time. I'll need to start doing that now as siding in and out is tougher for me ever since my infectious endocarditis last year. :cry:Quote:
Originally Posted by Hardcore
As Pox player you should, like knight Kato, already have a heart made of stone. So no problems:cool: It is the brains that we need more of:laugh:Quote:
Originally Posted by OmniStrata
Quote:
Originally Posted by Hardcore
Hey Hardcore, thanks for the feedback!
I read the article you mentioned. It was a nice read, but the real gem was in another article that was mentioned during the general tips: http://www.starcitygames.com/article...ase-Study.html. This second link explains the process behind the elephant method ("Writing out ideal realistic lists for all matchups and then trying to make the unique cards in those lists add up to 75 cards before deciding on the specific 60 for the maindeck and the specific fifteen for the sideboard").
I'll try to do the same with my current list to get to a new 75 cards. I'll make sure to share my results with you guys.
On playing more than 60 cards, I strongly advise against that. By doing that you are lowering the chances of drawing a specific card and you lose consistence because your land to cards ratio is not the same anymore. Imagine the pain of nothing being able to find lands after a wasteland or your own smallpox.
My mana base is good enough that the land ratis change only marginally. Then adding cards change the dynamic of the deck. For example access to massacre may mean in don't need to play Pox aggressively. This obviously help:smile: vs DnT. Note that the common advice would be cut a Pox for the massacre, BUT I want to have both. First I want to play massacre and after that Pox as Coup de grace.Quote:
Originally Posted by itsvan
The Elephant is useful in order to think holistically about deck and sideboard against all opponents. This doesn't mean one will use it for one's own design however. The reason is that the method is more suited to some decks than others. A typical example is combo. A player of such a deck, like storm, want to make the minimum necessary changes when Sideboarding in order to not compromise the function of his deck.
Are wizards unhinged or just cynical?
The new cards in the 2019 core set add more hate cards to the pool.
A favorite is Alpine Moon , with Mistcaller close second.
It seems to confirm my suspicion that rather than bans the preferred method to keep brokenness in check is to print new cards.
On the subject of storm there appears to be a hate cards in Amulet of Safekeeping . :rolleyes:
Pre-ordered a set of Alpine Moon. Not sure what to use them for, but I figure at total cost of 13€ it is no big deal.
I'm going to be taking Pox ("aggro" pox?) to a local in a couple weeks, my first ever legacy tournament. I'll probably make mistakes and i have no idea what the meta is now, but it is what it is.
Here is what I currently have/am thinking about taking.
14 swamp
4 Mishra's factory
4 Wasteland
3 urborg
4 pox
4 small pox
4 hymn to tourach
4 inquisition of kozilek
4 innocent blood
4 liliana of the veil
4 bloodghast
4 shrieking affliction
3 liliana, the last hope
I currently have no sideboard, but have/am considering the following:
4 Leyline of the void
4 extirpate (may not need 8 slots dedicated to grave hate)
4 pithing needle
3 toxic deluge
Some thoughts I am hoping others can provide input on, or cards I have that I can bring in. My heart is mostly on big pox for nostalgia sake if nothing else, but:
-4 pox
+2 karn, scion of urza
+2 delve creature of choice (plays nicer with Lili, last hope)
Also considering going with the 4th urborg.
I tried 8 rack for a while but that felt like too many conditional damage sources that were problematic if i drew too many too early.
I do have 2 collective brutality available, 3 thoughtsieze, 4 fatal push, as well as 2 ensnaring bridge and 2 bitterblossoms (courtesy of Mr. Safety) available for tech in the main or side. I have a lone chains but without search or draw it seems pointless to stick it in. I also have storm/control hate cards in defense grid (seems unnecessary) and damping sphere. or whatever that dominaria one was that slows tron and storm, potentially.
If i go the delve creature route, I can bring in fetches and fewer wasteland/mishra's to fill the yard and get landfall triggers.
Huge Huge Huge mistake to play Bloodghasts with no fetches. Being able to fetch eot enables psudo haste. Also being able to fetch in response to Deathrite Shaman or Surgical Extraction is so important. I take it you never tested this deck?Quote:
Originally Posted by ronco
Not against anything real, no. Just against my own decks which aren't exactly tournament level.Quote:
Originally Posted by Pittplayer
That being said I was going to try some of the variants next week that i mentioned above to see how it does. Was just looking for some advanced input.
hardcore is our resident aggro pox master, hopefully he can help youQuote:
Originally Posted by ronco
if you're going aggro, i wouldn't sub in Karn for big Pox, he's more of a control advantage card, and you want to close the game fast. better to make them lose 1/3 of their life. some delve threats might be ok, though they die to all your reciprocal sac effects. i think they're stronger in a control shell as well.
fetches do seem good if you have them.
my feeling is that you might want more wincons than 4x ghast 4x affliction 4x factory. maybe a couple Nihilith? I've seen that in Hardcore's lists.
is there a reason you're not playing dark ritual? you have a lot of busted turn 1 plays and with 8 poxes you'll be hurting for mana a lot so drawing it won't be dead that often
extirpate should be surgical, if you can do it, but like you said, probably don't need that much grave hate. maybe bitterblossom for the control matches? lost legacy is also good at crippling decks with few wincons (sneak & show, miracles, ANT). could put Karns in the board for grindier matchups
another cute thing you can do is buried alive for 3x bloodghasts (or other creatures that might be good in the yard). might be a bit too spicy but thought why not suggest it.
overall i like how streamlined your deck looks. seems like a lot of fun to play. let us know how it goes!
aslidsiksoraksi gives good advice.
- Fetches for Bloodghast are necessary.
- one buried alive is just right.
- Four dark rituals are never wrong.
- 12 win conditions is enough.
- A clunky mana base is best to avoid. Wasteland and Mishra's slows you down. Stick to swamp and fetches.
- Spells that cost four mana are too clunky. Karn is for control Pox decks.
- Nihilith and Shrieking Affliction both confuse opponents. May confuse you too. Tombstalker is more straightforward. His best buddies are the ghasts that protect him from Pox. See first point.
- Pox is more valuable than LotV.
- Inquisition and similar spells are weak. Best kept in the sideboard against combo.
- Collective Brutality is more versatile than Innocent Blood.
I could go on but will emphasize the important point; Aggro and control have different goals, works differently and have different card requirements.
This means that while the big black card pool is the same you don't pick the same cards from it.
Pox+Shrieking affliction = <3
* Bloodghasts are unplayable without fetches.Quote:
Originally Posted by Hardcore
* Buried Alive is casual fodder. Not playable in a competitive legacy environment.
* Wasteland is crucial to a disruptive deck.
* Big pox is unplayable. And LotV is a top tier card. Almost every Pox deck that has had tourney success has run her.
* Dark Rituals belong in combo decks. Pox decks rely on virtual card advatange and top decks. I'm not saying they are unplayable, but they do make your deck more inconsistent.
* T1 discard spells are crucial in legacy. How do you fight against decks like show and tell or storm if you just pass T1?
* If you are not running 4 innocent blood, why are you even playing Pox? In a format filled with Deathrite Shamans and Delvers, Collective Brutaily is just so slow and just walks you into a daze.
You dare question the resident Aggro Pox Master?Quote:
Originally Posted by Pittplayer
Oh, well. The short reply is that my advice is for a deck built around Pox, not Smallpox.
Aggro, not control. Or suicide black in another form. Your objections does simply not apply here.
I LoL'ed hard after this...:laugh::laugh::laugh:Quote:
Originally Posted by Hardcore
Blockers will be a problem, so Deluge is good...but I might hedge against that and play 1-2x Darkblast, especially with 4x Bloodghast. Dredging them is straight up gas.Quote:
Originally Posted by ronco
Extirpate is a 2-of at best, I think. With 4x leyline you're really looking for an edge against combo, not dredge/reanimator when you turn to Extirpate/Surgical. I would probably cut 2x Extirpate for 2x Darkblast, or at least 2x Collective Brutality (which is also straight up gas with Bloodghasts.)
3x Liliana, the Last Hope main is a little too much I think. Two should be *plenty* and I think this is where you can squeeze in something like Maze of Ith, Cabal Pit, Thoughtseize, Cabal Therapy, or even a Duress. I would probably cut to only 1 LtLH and play 2x Duress maindeck. Pox and LtlH do very similar things, but her second ability is really poor in pox. First and last are nuts, so definitely 1 copy is fine.
Where are those Bitterblossoms I traded you?!?!? This is what I would do:
-2 Liliana, the last Hope
-1 Pox
+2 Duress (or Karns if you have them)
+1 Cabal Pit
Sideboard
-2 Extirpate
-2 Pithing Needle
-1 Toxic Deluge
+2 Collective Brutality
+2 Bitterblossom
+1 Darkblast
I like the quad-laser approach quite a bit, it gives a ton of consistency, but once you are dedicated to 25 lands you have to start thinking about 'do I want 3-ofs or do I want to dedicate 3 slots to singletons.' Crucible of Worlds, Maze of Ith, Toxic Deluge, Ratchet Bomb, all of these are perfectly fine as singletons.
Good luck!
EDIT: another reason for getting land #26 in there is because Pox is rough on your own mana, and 8 of your cards aren't lands without Urborg (Wasteland/Factory.)
I wasn't sure if bitterblossom went well with big pox. Between that, fetches and pox that is a LOT of self inflicted life loss and wasn't sure if putting myself into range of a few bolts was a great idea. I was thinking those would be more sideboard tech that I would pull big pox out for if it came down to it. But it certainly protects delve creatures/gives blockers/rebuilds the board quickly.
I've pulled out 3 urborg, 2 factory, 1 wasteland for 6 fetches in the mean time to try out and the mana base does feel a lot better. I don't know I am comfortable completely cutting wasteland as it seems very versatile in the format, but again I have no idea. I temporarily pulled big pox in favor of delve creatures and left the rest the same, and it handled my G/R aggro deck better (all I've had time to test against), for what that is worth. Not sure if that will stay since I want to play big pox IF I can make it work or at least not be terrible.
In response to the others:
-I don't have surgical now, only have extirpate, which is why that is there. Someday...
-IoK and similar cards being weak is a bit surprising to me. Is that comment made to imply thoughtsieze is better or all one mana for one card cards are not great in that build?
-I keep forgetting about maze of ith and ratchet bomb. this is where lack of experience hurts as I don't run into problem creatures/permanents often vs my limited pool of decks.
-on the way to work this morning, I had a terrible idea of considering prized amalgram along side the bloodghasts. But that is probably 100% too cute for competitive decks.
-regarding dark rits, I had pulled them as the consensus seemed to be split, and it gave me 4 more slots for tech. Since everything was 3 or less mana I didn't think it was terribly necessary but maybe I misunderstood the builds people were saying it was needed/not needed in.
thanks for the feedback on the rest, plenty I had overlooked. with the exception of nether void builds, I can put together just about any version of mono black pox or vaka pox (the Bw build, right?). Big pox agro was the one I was wanting to start with. I'm sure I'll find my sweet spot after getting it to some real events in due time.
5 mana is way too much, but they could have at least worked a pox in the name!
http://mythicspoiler.com/m19/cards/f...mnipotence.jpg
This is adorable. I wish it was BBBB to cast instead.Quote:
Originally Posted by ronco
I play control but LOVE the aggro variants. A few thoughts on ronco's list.
In an aggro shell, absolutely. Every now and again I jam a singleton alongside a Nether Spirit without fetches.Quote:
Bloodghasts & fetches
I absolutely agree with Pittplayer on this. It's a 3 drop that doesn't do anything to disrupt. While it is a little cute, I can get behind an Entomb package as Bloodghast #5 or Raven's Crime or Darkblast or whatever.Quote:
Buried Alive
You would be fine jamming all the Urborgs. You are going to sacrifice them left and right when you aren't discarding them. They also make your fetches a lot better.Quote:
Urborg
This deck wants to blow up stuff. Although there is a tinge of nonbo with Affliction.Quote:
Wasteland
Big Pox isn't unplayable. It's not as good as Lil' V but if you want to jam it this is the shell. When playing this version I would cast Liliana first to clear the way for Pox. If they Force her Pox hits harder and if they Daze her Pox hits harder. This can also mean if you are on the draw they have 4 lands by the time you hit 3, killing more lands.Quote:
Originally Posted by pittplayer
I don't play Rituals, but I think you should. T1 Liliana with your deck is going to be back breaking. You can also run into black mana problems if you keep blowing up you own lands. They aren't horrible late here.Quote:
Dark Ritual
I personally have been trimming the numbers but I might have gone a little far recently. 3-5 is definitely worthwhile. In this aggro list, if they want to jam Big Pox IOK is superior to Thoughtseize. If you are blowing up their lands they are going to be casting cmc 1-3 more often than 4+. The life loss is annoying but not horrible. If you fire the Thoughtseize first the numbers can be fudged. (This is also something to note with your fetches. You can mitigate some life loss by losing it elsewhere.)Quote:
1 cmc discard
1 mana removal spells are important, especially when blowing your own lands. Fatal Push slid into some IB slots. I run 3 IB and 2 FP.Quote:
4 innocent blood...
Not with Big Pox.Quote:
Bitterblossom
p.s. With Pox and a Lil' Hope ult, you could view this as 17 wincons.Quote:
Originally Posted by Suggested Numbers
Bingo, it's good in matchups where Pox isn't (Miracles, Czech Pile.)Quote:
Originally Posted by ronco
The statement 'Wasteland is crucial to a disruptive deck' needs a bit more unpacking and Prison decks also play 1-shot accelerants but the rest of this is a good post I thinkQuote:
Originally Posted by Pittplayer
(Buried alive has had some success in the necrotic ooze deck but that's obviously an entirely different conversation)