If you were playing lynx you'd want to play that on t1 more than a nacatl, since lynx's window of awesome shrinks with every turn, while Nacatl's stays open the full game.
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If you were playing lynx you'd want to play that on t1 more than a nacatl, since lynx's window of awesome shrinks with every turn, while Nacatl's stays open the full game.
Actually, you'd much rather lead with Nacatl in that line of play. You're still swinging for the same amount of damage, and it disguises the amount of damage you could be dealing next turn. It could be the difference between them tapping out to play turn 1 Top or holding mana for STP.
Reckless Charge ALSO helps with this. Topdecked Steppe Lynxes can actually steal games, as opposed to always sucking.Quote:
...since lynx's window of awesome shrinks with every turn..
Well I was speaking more generally, given not a lot of people run reckless charge.
Yes, that's what I meant but not specifically said. This means that the deck makes decisions for me instead of me making the decisions.Quote:
Originally Posted by hungryLIKEALION
Playing Lynxes might make it a bit faster but there's risks involved. I'll try to explain. The biggest problem as with any deck is that I have to mulligan when the colors of my lands do not correspondent with the cards in hand. With a deck with Lynxes I also have that risk but now I'm also adding the risk that I do not have fetch land and have to mulligan. Or if I don't mulligan (say I have two non-fetch lands in hand) then with a Lynx I am in the same situation as if it were a Kird Ape. But the big difference is that if I do not draw a land next I have a 0/1 Lynx instead of a 2/3 Kird Ape (or a 1/1 Kird Ape if I control no forest). Besides by playing Reckless Charge it means that I play even more cards that are bad topdecks.Quote:
Originally Posted by troopatroop
It's just that all these little things and the things I mentioned before add up and that's why I don't like a build with Lynxes. Playing stuff like lynxes and Reckless Charge turn the deck in an one trick pony. The problem with one trick pony decks is that they are easier to disrupt and quicker to fail. That's why I think those 'improvements' actually weaken the deck overall.
That's something to consider, thanks.Quote:
Originally Posted by mmmetaphor
As opposed to Kird Apes?Quote:
Originally Posted by troopatroop
A top decked Steppe Lynx can steal games if you have a fetch to put in play.
If you don't have a fetch but only a non-fetch than it's just as good as a Kird Ape. But if you need two turns to finish your opponent off than Kird ape is better because you need to draw another land the 2nd turn you want to attack.
I really don't understand why you like Lynxes more. They're much more luck dependant. I think we have to agree to disagree onthis one.
Heya all,
I've lurked through this thread for months and figured I'd finally get myself registered and start joining the conversation. First of all, just wanted to thank you all, esp Bailey and Lion, for your advice on the deck. It's given me a pretty good start.
Anyway, so there's zilch for Legacy in my area (no local card shop to speak of for miles), and I'm trying to prep myself for the 5k in Indy here in a month or so. I guess my problem is I don't really know the usual metas of these large tourneys and how to prioritize my sideboarding. Thanks to my just-starting-up team, I've gotten a lot of practice against the gamut, but I guess I need some assistance tweaking out how I should weight my board.
My build is pretty much the standard model: 21 land, 21 creatures (Nacatl, Ape, Goyf, Qasali, 3 Lavamancer, 2 KotR), 15 removal (4 Bolt, 4 Chain, 3 Helix, 4 Path), and complete with the midgame accoutrements (2 Sylvan, 1 Jitte). My testing board right now is:
Sideboard
3x Red Elemental Blast
2x Tormod's Crypt
2x Ravenous Trap
2x Krosan Grip
2x Price of Progress
3x Gaddock Teeg
1x Umezawa's Jitte
Now, I know that over the course of the past 2000+ posts there have been plenty of discussions over sideboard cards. I know the general list of what is used against what, but I guess what I am wondering from you more large-tournament-seasoned guys is what, specifically, is the meta I should expect in Indy and how do I prepare for it? With the large amount of zoo and other "fair" decks showing up at recent tournaments it seems like common sense would be to expect more players to pick up ANT, etc, and that's why I put in the 3 Teegs. I really want to find a place for EE with how prominent Loam's becoming, but what do I take out for it? Price of Progress?
I guess the main point comes down to the Teegs. Reading the worldwide meta lists like over in the Format discussion forum I see the combo percentages surging from normal, but I don't know if that kind of thing is localized or if the meta is yet truly globalized? This is my first >big< legacy tournament I'm planning on, so I guess I just want to have a good idea.
Well, anyway, nice to actually start in posting, and thanks for any advice.
Your sideboard looks really good. I don't know how the Meta is in Indy, but where I live a playset of Pyrostatic Pillars in the board helped my Combo and burn MUs a lot.
@Nelis:
With Steppe Lynx I can now keep the Hands I usually would have mulliganed. Those 4 Land hands and à Steppe Lynx can win games with ease. I did about 12 dmg on AVERAGE in à games with just that One Card. And tbh, playing 12 fetchies means You're always able to Save à fetchie for later.
@Bokonon: Thanks for the praise. Sorry if I've seemed like a dick over the thread, Magic is one of the few things i feel strongly about when it comes to card choices. I remember back in this thread people suggest cutting red from Zoo and adding Blue. /wrist
Make Chain Lightning a 3of, and Lightning Helix a 4of and then your deck seems about right. And i run a Jitte and 2 Library as well. I switch em out though depending on what kind of meta is present. And if it's aggro i usually just cut the 2 Library and add my second Jitte and another Chain.
I understand that it could work that way but that's exactly how I do not want to play the deck. You would steal some games with that tactic but you will also lose games. In the above scenario all it takes is to screw up your win is 1 removal card for your Lynx. That leaves you with 2 other cards which are never enough to put pressure on your opponent especially if those two cards are not creatures. I also don't see myself holding back lands because sometimes you cannot afford to hold back lands. I mean I have 11 fetch lands and most times I can't hold them back because I need them. Although I realize that running a card like Figure of Destiny has something to do with that. Again I understand your points but they just don't work for me.Quote:
Originally Posted by Dr.AgOn
If combo is on the rise (ANT) in your meta I would definitely recommend putting in a 4th Teeg. I've played ANT a couple of times and even with Teeg it's hard to win. The best play is to burn them as quickly to get them as low as possible on life and hoping to land a Teeg turn 2. Don't start with a creature turn 1. If I would be good at playing control I would pick up a control deck when I go to a big tournament in Holland. But I'm not, so I'll always play aggro.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bokonon
I don't think the meta is globalized yet. In Holland ANT is much more present than anywhere else (and doing good) Aggro Loam used to be a deck to beat (or at least a very strong contender) but its already of the map while it just recently is became a deck to beat on this forum. But then again in Holland Countertop isn't that popular.
Madrid is going to be very interesting. I think combo (ANT) is going to be be the deck that will put up the best results. I expect at least 1 Dutch player top 8ing with ANT.
Thanks for the quick info guys. Anyway,
@Bailey
I've waffled back and forth on the CL vs. Helix a couple times, and maybe it's just because of the decks I've been playtesting against and how a friend of mine plays, but it's often seemed to me that the 2 mana vs 1 mana is more relevant than the instant vs. sorcery. A lot of times, I'm using my burn to clear out potential blockers, so since I can't do it in combat anyway as a "trick" and still get damage through, the sorcery hasn't felt as large of a limitation as it could be. Yeah, swinging a Nacatl into a vital Goyf and bluffing out the extra damage or being able to kill the Goyf in combat where I couldn't be able to before is nice, but it seems that comes up less often, and the trade had better be darn good to accept the 1-for-2. Yeah there are a few times that a creature comes down in the opponent's turn that I need to have killed on the spot, or that gets vialed in in combat before blockers, but again, I've not really gotten a handle on how often that ends up being relevant. It seems most of the creatures that absolutely must die on the opponent's turn (Magus of the Tabernacle, etc) can only be handled by path anyway, and the only matchups that really abuse Vial are Goblins, Fish, and what, Landstill? And for that, I've not yet been able to justify the curve problems that are caused by a situation where you get the t1 Nacatl, t2 Pridemage, and then need to burn t3 for removal. If I have chain, I can burn the blocker and drop a Goyf after combat. With helix, yeah I get the life swing, but I also lose some tempo on my drops.
@Dr.Agon/Nelis
I guess my problem is with dedicated board space for it. I think ANT and its ilk will be more prominant than in, say, 5k's from a year back, but I don't necessarily think they'll become format defining. We have a terrible matchup against ANT/Belcher, and even with options like Teeg it's still a low chance that we'll get one down while it's still relevant to keeping us alive. I've put in 3 Teegs, but I can't really rationalize putting more than 3 SB hate cards against it with such an unknown factor. If I did, it'd probably be the 4th Teeg, but I guess even more the question is, can 3 (or even 4) Teegs/Pillars be game-swinging enough to bring our matchup up to a decent even at least? If not, I'm not sure that it's worth running >any< Teegs and writing the matchup up to a lottery on the off chance I can get through it. I dunno. I hate leaving any part of my game to chance.
I also hate leaving any part to the game to chance so that's why I play four. But if you think you still don't have a chance (and I admit it's very likely) then I would play none and dedicate those slots to other matchups. But Teeg is also very strong against White Staxx and Landstill and Dredge. That's why to me, especially in a big 'random' tournaments, 4 is the right number.Quote:
Originally Posted by Bokonon
@Bokonon: Idk, in my opinion 4 Helix is a MUST because Zoo is the best deck in the format now. It can also steal wins against combo if the player isn't that great.
Chain can be throw back, which is a problem in some situations. I've read about Lands shooting it back at a game winning Nacatl. And most Zoo players will fetch, Taiga Plateau as their first fetches.
That's just what i think.
I think saying Zoo is the best deck in the format, while possibly true a few months ago, is no longer true. With NO the bant countertop decks have managed to make that matchup 50-50 or worse for us, which has substantially harmed this deck's standing within the format.
I'm currently in the process of completely retooling my list to target this matchup; I'll let you all know what I come up with as soon as I'm done.
But you know what i mean when it comes to Helix and Chain. That was my main point.
Yes, and that's one of the main things I've always agreed with you about.
But really, I just hate chain lightning.
Fair enough. Yeah, I guess with the mirror becoming more and more common the threat of having it chained back on you does come into play. I guess I'll try it out both ways again against a few matchups and see where I end up.
Mainboard:
4 Lightning Bolt
4 Figure of Destiny
4 Qasali Pridemage
4 Knight of the Reliquary
4 Punishing Fire
4 Wild Nacatl
4 Tarmogoyf
4 Path to Exile
4 Noble Hierarch
1 Lightning Helix
1 Elspeth, Knight-Errant
2 Taiga
3 Arid Mesa
4 Windswept Heath
1 Treetop Village
4 Grove of the Burnwillows
1 Savannah
2 Plateau
2 Wooded Foothills
1 Mountain
1 Plains
1 Forest
# 60
Sideboard:
4 Choke
2 Red Elemental Blast
3 Krosan Grip
2 Ravenous Trap
1 Tormod's Crypt
3 Gaddock Teeg
# 15
What about this list that made top2 (and byes) for Madrid ?
It's heavier in creatures and it plays the "combo" punishing/grove (imported from extended). After a quick testing against merfolk, CB and zoo "mirror", it's clear that this list is made to beat mirror and is really efficient against CB (thanks to noble + figure or whatever).
The mini-combo can punish a greedy player who played NO CB, can work around many problematic creatures with recursion (goblins I am thinking of you ! Dredge too !) and except it's a really bad magma jet without grove, I can't see nothing but benefits.
The sideboard should be adapted to local/global metagame but the maindeck is made to take advantage and is more "mid-range" without sacrifying too much to the beatdown plan (I still win on turn 4-5).
The price of progress missed me from the sideboard but with so many non-basics, I don't know if it's really a good plan to work with them anymore.
Just tell me what you think about it :) !
Can anyone please tell me the correct number of sylvan library's to run?
thanks.
i haven't played legacy since 2004
stopped by forum to see ZOO (the deck i got a philly bye because of) in a DTB???? awesome
chain lightning sucks
goblin legionarre is always a 2for1 (as compared to figure, tough choice agreed)
one thing i was using instead of cursed scroll was isochron scepter, 99% of the time dropping a helix'd scepter was GG against goblins as long as you're not the intellectual equivalent to a cement block
Initial builds had 2 Sylvans. If you play with the Steppe Lynx, I suggest 3. This allows you to exploit the landfall ability. I'm not sure if people realize how powerful Library is. Think about a free Ponder, every turn.