[Deck] Dredge

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by joemauer

I think Reanimator is about as close as we can get to an autoloss. I have found it to be a very tough MU. Only winning with luck, like them mullin to four.

---

Really? I've not made those expieriences.

If they always have the two Land, Entomb, Animate Dead, Daze, Force+pitch opener then yeah, we lose. On the other hand, if they haven't and we have the two Land, two discard outlet, Dredger, draw spell hand we win pretty easily. It's really pretty much a coin flip, at least in my expieience. Typically, whoever's on the play wins. If we are, they can't Daze us and have to force (maybe losing a Careful Study or another enabler) whetever we play turn 1. That's enough time to land an outlet next turn and win. If they are on the play and draw well, they usually have Elesh or Archon by the time we develop.

I've considered Leyline of the Void for the reanimator matchup, since they've dropped bounce effects for Show and Tell boards, and I've been having trouble with 43 Lands.dec (they can lock us pretty hard).

And Show and Tell is a turn 3 go, and we'll have gone crazy by then.

My sideboard looks like this:
4 Leyline of the Void
3 Nature's Claim
3 Ancient Grudge
1 Ray of Revelation
1 Ichorid
1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
1 Angel of Despair
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria

And I usually board like this against Reanimator:
+4 Leyline of the Void
-2 Breakthrough
-1 Tireless Tribe
-1 Darkblast

Shouldn't you be siding out Ichorid against Reanimator? Siding out Breakthrough, Tribe, and a dredger is counter-intuitive in a combo match where speed is the bottom line. Angel of Despair is a good card I would also side in since we're cold to a Blazing Archon.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by 4eak

I've settled on Putrid Imp in the main. My SB has changed:

// Sideboard
SB: 3 Tireless Tribe
SB: 3 Ancient Grudge
SB: 4 Nature's Claim
SB: 2 Ray of Revelation
SB: 1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
SB: 1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
SB: 1 Ancestor's Chosen

Again, I'm still drawing in all games (assuming my opponent lets me). I'm DDDing in most of them.

G1, I focus on speed and consistency.

Against combo, G2 and G3 I keep the same focus, but with a slight drop in consistency for DR targets.

Against [permission and GY-Hate] or [Leyline or Wheel], G2 and G3 I focus on consistency and resilience to GY-hate. Most of the draw spells are sided out.

Against everything else, G2 and G3 I focus mostly on speed and consistency, with light-answers to GY-hate.



peace,
4eak

---

What made you make those changes? Was it the MM ban?

Gorian list looks so nasty and makes the deck untouchable to counters (with the cabal therapy backup) and Wraith offers an uncounterable timewalk. Was it a consistency problem? Hows the MD now?

I would appreciate if you told us what led you to make those changes. :)

I played dredge in a free tournament put on by the King of Cards store in auckland
There were 21 players with a Tarmogoyf for 1st place and a randomly drawn sinkhole for a spot prize.

same list as always.feldman

4 Thug
4 Troll
4 Imp
4 Imp
4 Tribe
4 Study
4 Breakthrough
2 Dread Return
4 Bridge
4 Narco
3 Ichorid
4 Therapy
4 Mine
4 City
4 Coliseum
3 Citadel

3 Leyline of the Void
3 Winds of Change
2 Elesh Norn
1 Darkblast
4 Firestorm
1 Ichorid
1 Angel of Despair

Round 1
Matt MW - Merfolk
I get raped in the ass, dealing no damage to him in either game
Notable play - me blind therapying the only card in his hand and losing anyway

Round 2
Dilip - Junk
Game 1 I blind therapy his swords away like a man and make a 12/12 troll on turn 3 or something
Game 2 I blind therapy his knight away, make like a derp in the combat step, he extirpates my bridges and trolls. Eventually a BSkull comes down and his life goes from like 13-33-5-13 and then im probably gonna lose but it's time in the round so 1-0-1 to me

Round 3
Chris Miller - Zoo
Game one is just TROLLLLOLOLOLOL all day every day
Game 2 He doesn't hit any grave hate. I kill 2 of his guys with firestorm and troll gets there again due to his karakas shutting off elesh norn.

Round 3
Ryan Hanan - Armageddon Stax
Game one I do my thang just like the last 2 rounds
Game 2 I don't even know what he's playing (from what I saw it could be like dragon stompy or something). I sideboard terribly with like winds of change using the logic that I need to race him out before he can throw his lockpieces down. Game 2 he turn 1 chalice of the void for 1 and my whole hand is dead, he kills me with metalworker and mishra's factory before I can do anything.
Game three I sideboard out the winds of change and move back to 4 Ichorids. I mulligan terribly. My opening on the play goes Cephalid Coliseum, breakthrough, pass. He crypts me, obviously, but he has like no clock so I play it out anyway. I get up to 7 cards and start discarding grave troll and dredging, but he crypts me again. He has ensnaring bridge and smokestack, so my handful of zombies aren't going anywhere and my narcomoeba pings him for 1 a couple of times.
Amazingly I build up another dredge and get 4 bridges in the bin which didn't get eaten by either of his 2 crypts. My ichorids are making a bunch of zombies so I dread return an angel of despair on his ensnaring bridge which allows me to bring him down to very low life with my zombie team. He plays a zuran orb and vaporises his entire manabase to keep him alive another turn, but his topdeck is a crypt (too late!) and my zombies get there.
Definitely the best game of the day and one of the best games of magic I have ever played, continuing my record of luckboxing out of the worst openings imaginable.

Round 5
Zen Takahashi - High Tide
We're both on lock for top8 so we agree to ID. I make the sick move of writing 2-0 to me on the match slip but he manages to spot my sneaky shenanigans before he signs it.

Top 8
Jason Chung - Hive Mind
Game one I herp like a derp. (Turn one putrid imp, grave troll in hand, next turn, draw... wait wtf omg bbq ahahahaha fml). He shows an emrakul and tells me to annihilate all my permanents. (I can dread return a stinkweed imp to block it but I don't have enough dudes to sac to the annihilator trigger)
Game 2 I get the sick +1 off a therapy by hitting 2 of his intuitions but he brainstorms into a hive mind and kills me anyway.

Obviously I played like a scrub against jason
I have never played against the matchup before and had no idea what I was doing. I think when I am under pressure I try to play in too much of a rush and then I make mistakes.
Even in the end of game one I just scooped when I couldve played out one more turn and it definitely wouldve made a difference if I milled a narcomoeba.

But it was free entry, nothing lost, knowledge gained! I think I really need to test more with the deck because every event I end up playing like a complete muppet...

Then off to the rugby to watch the ABs crush Argentina yeah!

The masterminds of Dregde in my area brewed up a new list. I HUGELY recommend large parts of that lists if you are considering Ichorid at GP Amsterdam.


4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
4 Cephalid Coliseum
3 Tarnished Citadel
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Thug
4 Bridge from Below
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba
4 Putrid Imp
4 Firestorm
1 Tireless Tribe
4 Careful Study
4 Breakthrough
SB: 3 Ancient Grudge
4 Nature's Claim
1 Ray of Revelation
1 Leyline of the Void
2 Dread Return
2 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 Sadistic Hypnotist
The single Leyline is of course debatable. If seen it being used against me in the Mirror by just revealing the Leyline while Sideboarding. I had to board in Enchantment hate, making my deck much worse. I will try the same plan, funny as hell and also effective.
Firestorm MD is a must I think. In every tournament I play I have at least 3 decks with MD Ooze against me. It helps so much.

Took a 2nd place in a 12 players tournament. Few persons lots of decks.

R1: RG Beats: 2-0.
R2: Mirror, 0-2. Luck wasn't really with me this time. However, it was an interesting round.
R3: Zoo, 2-0.
R4: Spiral tide, 2-0.

Overall, 3-1 (6-0-2).

Glad, i have to say. Sorry but it was a LED version with some experimental inclusions, take a look:

/ Lands
4 [AN] City of Brass
3 [OD] Cephalid Coliseum
4 [TSB] Gemstone Mine
1 [OD] Tarnished Citadel

// Creatures
4 [RAV] Stinkweed Imp
4 [TO] Ichorid
4 [TO] Putrid Imp
4 [RAV] Golgari Grave-Troll
4 [FUT] Narcomoeba
3 [RAV] Golgari Thug
1 [RAV] Flame-Kin Zealot
1 [OD] Tireless Tribe
1 [SHM] Woodfall Primus
1 [FNM] Eternal Witness

// Spells
4 [FUT] Bridge from Below
4 [TO] Breakthrough
4 [JU] Cabal Therapy
3 [TSP] Dread Return
2 [TO] Deep Analysis
4 [MI] Lion's Eye Diamond

// Sideboard
SB: 4 [ON] Chain of Vapor
SB: 3 [WL] Firestorm
SB: 3 [TSP] Ancient Grudge
SB: 1 [ZEN] Iona, Shield of Emeria
SB: 1 [ALA] Realm Razer
SB: 1 [10E] Ancestor's Chosen
SB: 1 [NPH] Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
SB: 1 [JU] Ray of Revelation

Comments and questions are welcomed!

:)

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by HokusSchmokus

The masterminds of Dregde in my area brewed up a new list. I HUGELY recommend large parts of that lists if you are considering Ichorid at GP Amsterdam.


4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
4 Cephalid Coliseum
3 Tarnished Citadel
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Thug
4 Bridge from Below
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba
4 Putrid Imp
4 Firestorm
1 Tireless Tribe
4 Careful Study
4 Breakthrough
SB: 3 Ancient Grudge
4 Nature's Claim
1 Ray of Revelation
1 Leyline of the Void
2 Dread Return
2 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 Sadistic Hypnotist
The single Leyline is of course debatable. If seen it being used against me in the Mirror by just revealing the Leyline while Sideboarding. I had to board in Enchantment hate, making my deck much worse. I will try the same plan, funny as hell and also effective.
Firestorm MD is a must I think. In every tournament I play I have at least 3 decks with MD Ooze against me. It helps so much.

---

Nice list, Firestorm is nice and can push some damage early game (which always make a difference). Still, I'd cut the 3rd Tarnished Citadel for another Tribe or a Darkblast (13th dredger rocks). I haven't had problems with 14 lands so far.

The Leyline of the Void trick plan is nasty, loved it.

@ Hokus:

I know that the guys, who are behind the list, used to be the overall best Dredge player we currently have in Germany, but I don't like the list very much.

First of all cutting DR alltogether from the main doesn't seem like the right call, because there will allways be some kind of situation where you want to DR in G1 (maybe only as a sac outlet, maybe to bring back Stinkweed Imp, sometimes just to get that big Troll or sometimes even to get a Tireless Tribe back into play).
Ofc this will also be winmore in some situations and DR is a dead card in your oppening 7 and I can see where they go with the deck.

Another point I don't like is the 4th Ichorid and the fact that you have to run the 4th Thug over the Darkblast to be able to support them (and even then I don't think that the deck is capable of constantly supporting 4 Ichorids without more black creatures in the form of Phatasmagorian or Streetwraith, like in 4eak's old list).

I'm going to test the list with 2 changes: -1 Ichorid and -1 Thug for +1 DR and +1 Darkblast.

As for the single Leyline in the board: Secret Tech ;D.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by HokusSchmokus

The masterminds of Dregde in my area brewed up a new list. I HUGELY recommend large parts of that lists if you are considering Ichorid at GP Amsterdam.


4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
4 Cephalid Coliseum
3 Tarnished Citadel
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
4 Golgari Thug
4 Bridge from Below
4 Cabal Therapy
4 Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba
4 Putrid Imp
4 Firestorm
1 Tireless Tribe
4 Careful Study
4 Breakthrough
SB: 3 Ancient Grudge
4 Nature's Claim
1 Ray of Revelation
1 Leyline of the Void
2 Dread Return
2 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
1 Sadistic Hypnotist
The single Leyline is of course debatable. If seen it being used against me in the Mirror by just revealing the Leyline while Sideboarding. I had to board in Enchantment hate, making my deck much worse. I will try the same plan, funny as hell and also effective.
Firestorm MD is a must I think. In every tournament I play I have at least 3 decks with MD Ooze against me. It helps so much.

---

Are you on the play or you go allways for DDD 1st turn like 4eak? I lost a lot of confidence playing with this type of dredge due to the massive counterspells and disruption in the current meta. And the deck seems kinda slow against "unfair decks" (storm - turn 1/2 kill).

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by HokusSchmokus

Firestorm MD is a must I think. In every tournament I play I have at least 3 decks with MD Ooze against me. It helps so much.

---

When I first saw that German list with Firestorm I also was like "damn, how awesome is that". I've really tried to like Firestorm maindeck and I've tested it till I collapsed. But still it couldn't convince me. Running Firestorms main seems good, seeing how insanely broken Firestorm can be for this deck.

There is however a huge issue with it, especially if it's your only discard out. So you discard your only Dredger with Firestorm and Dredge during your next draw step. And if you don't hit another Dredger (which freaking happens, even if I run 12-13 dredgers in my deck) you're screwed. You have a Breakthrough in your hand and can't do anything with it. If that Firestorm was a Tribe now, you've probably just won the game on turn 2. The times when it kills two of your Bridges are also more relevant than I wanted to admit at first. I've really tested it so much, but in the end, the deck just didn't run as 'smoothly' as with Tribe in those slots. As opposed to what has been said in the German MtG Forum, where this list has been put up, I think that Tribes are indeed way batter than Firestorm main deck. The card just looks so unfair, but in the end, it can't quite live up to that.

A strong argument are lots of Oozes in your metagame, but for me that still doesn't justify running Firestorm over Tribes main. Sideboard againt Ooze, Merfolk and that stuff yes, but not main deck. It hurts too much if your engine is stopped against the majority of decks.


EDIT: Cutting Dread Return didn't work for me at all. I expected my deck to get started better because those slots could be used to play more discrad outs, but in the end I missed DR so much. I don't even play a DR Target main, but the random 'sac three dudes' is so important. Not having any just made my graveyard look a lot less impressive and if I wasn't able to find 2-3 Therapies in the top half of my deck, I literally couldn't end the game after resolving a Breakthrough turn 2. That shouldn't happen to a Dredge deck. Too many times I was like 'cool, I'm gonna Dredge my deck away. But wait... what do I even want to do with it?'. You really have to hit all your Therapies early or you just can't end a game consistently without DR

I've always been a huge advocate of the German Dredge masterminds, as Hokus called them, but this time I think they made a step back. The traditional German list with 2 DR, no Targets and 4 Tribes is imho still the best list one can play in a tournament.




@ Godmode: You typically play. You only draw against slow control decks like Counterbalance and that stuff.

If you want to draw first all the time, you can't go without Phantasmagorians.

I still strongly believe that Firestorm MD is needed. I am indeed not sold of not having a DR main though. I was thinking about 1- Ichorid +1 DR .Im just gonna have to put up some test games.
What, except for StP do we need Darkblast?And even then you have Firestorm.

I played dredge at SCG Nashville. I copied 4eak's list because I can't think for myself.

// Lands - 14
4 City of Brass
4 Gemstone Mine
4 Cephalid Coliseum
2 Tarnished Citadel

// Dredgers - 13
4 Golgari Thug
4 Golgari Grave-Troll
4 Stinkweed Imp
1 Darkblast

// Self-Discard - 7
3 Phantasmagorian
4 Putrid Imp

// Draw - 8
4 Breakthrough
4 Careful Study

// GY Goodies - 18
4 Ichorid
4 Narcomoeba
4 Bridge from Below
4 Cabal Therapy
2 Dread Return

// Sideboard
SB: 3 Tireless Tribe
SB: 3 Ancient Grudge
SB: 4 Nature's Claim
SB: 2 Ray of Revelation
SB: 1 Iona, Shield of Emeria
SB: 1 Elesh Norn, Grand Cenobite
SB: 1 Ancestor's Chosen

Round 1 vs Reanimator Alex Bertoncini
Game 1 he got out a quick jin followed by a Blazing Archon. Sweet.
Game 2 he got out a Elesh norn...
No outs to either

Round 2 vs No Bant
Game 1 I won in the face of progenitus with a zombie horde
Game 2 I destroyed a turn 0 leyline with natures claim in response to his turn 2 meddling mage which ended up naming darkblast. Then came scavenging ooze... no outs.
Game 3 Yay another turn 0 leyline. I forget what happened this game other than I lost.

Round 3 vs Elves with random stuff...
2-0

Round 4 vs bump in the sligh? R/b burn with goblin guide/figure/dark confidant/burn
He wins game 1 iirc
I win games 2-3 pretty easily

Round 5 vs gwb maverick
I won game 1
Game 2 he just dropped mom's, bob's, goyfs, pridemages, and KotR at a ridiculous rate. And I had bad dredges
Game 3 yay another turn 0 leyline. I had the ray in my hand but he wasted 3 of my lands and I couldn't get to 2 lands to destroy it.

Then I left...

I kind of want Firestorm and Chain of Vapor somewhere in my list. CoV would have helped alot to bounce the leyline so I could do something since I could never get to 2 mana and firestorm would have killed his creature swarm game two because he kept attacking with his mom's so they wouldn't have saved anything.

I've actually been considering running Surgical Extraction in my sb for the reanimator matchup. Between them having wipe away, echoing truth, and chain of vapor the possibility of sticking a leyline aren't that great. Admittedly I'd like to test more against the deck.

have anyone tried memory's journey or purify the grave in SB? against in the field of snapcaster various deck

Memory's Journey seems like a neat trick, and you won't need it in your hand to cast. It might be worth considering if Snapcaster+Surgical Extraction gets out of hand.

@Que: I would think Chain of Vapor would be better against reanimator since it can be used against other decks too. Surgical Extraction won't help in the mirror much, but might help versus that Snapcaster+Surgical Extraction plan. I also need to test that matchup more as I currently suck against it.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by joemauer

Memory's Journey seems like a neat trick, and you won't need it in your hand to cast. It might be worth considering if Snapcaster+Surgical Extraction gets out of hand.

@Que: I would think Chain of Vapor would be better against reanimator since it can be used against other decks too. Surgical Extraction won't help in the mirror much, but might help versus that Snapcaster+Surgical Extraction plan. I also need to test that matchup more as I currently suck against it.

---

Eh, If you want to improve the reanimator matchup, why not a Faerie Macabre? It does the job without having to pay 2 life and feeds Ichorid.

Quote:

---

What, except for StP do we need Darkblast?And even then you have Firestorm.

---

StP, killing small dudes (i.e. mana dorks, Cursecatcher, Bob, various creatures with 2 toughness), combat tricks (i.e. negating Lifegain from Batterskull, etc.) and some other situations.
Sure we have 4 Firestorms but a recurring removal later on is never a bad idea.
Since Darkblast was brought up, around 1,5 years or so, I've never got the feeling that they are unnecessary in any way.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Felidae

StP, killing small dudes (i.e. mana dorks, Cursecatcher, Bob, various creatures with 2 toughness), combat tricks (i.e. negating Lifegain from Batterskull, etc.) and some other situations.
Sure we have 4 Firestorms but a recurring removal later on is never a bad idea.
Since Darkblast was brought up, around 1,5 years or so, I've never got the feeling that they are unnecessary in any way.

---

Now trying what you said, -1 Ichorid, -1 Thug +1 Darkblast +1 DR
One more slot in the SB now. Im tempted to go -1Leyline -1 Claim +3Memories Journey but I can't quite say if it will be good.

Quote:

---

Originally Posted by Felidae

StP, killing small dudes (i.e. mana dorks, Cursecatcher, Bob, various creatures with 2 toughness), combat tricks (i.e. negating Lifegain from Batterskull, etc.) and some other situations.
Sure we have 4 Firestorms but a recurring removal later on is never a bad idea.
Since Darkblast was brought up, around 1,5 years or so, I've never got the feeling that they are unnecessary in any way.

---

Now trying what you said, -1 Ichorid, -1 Thug +1 Darkblast +1 DR
One more slot in the SB now. Im tempted to go -1Leyline -1 Claim +3Memories Journey but I can't quite say if it will be good.